Saddam Hussein and Iraq

[shiva2999]

This is for TMR but also for the rest of you who are shakey with the history of Saddam and Iraq.

The best place to start is right here with Wikipedia's history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein

If everyone reads it we'll all be up to speed and we can go from there.

Please, cuz if I read one more "Saddam was a madman" piece of ignorance I'm going to scream.

Saddam was NOT a madman.

In fact, if you got with the program he was pretty darn good to his people.

[micknaboz]

this is gonna be a good one :)

[shiva2999]

Does this sound like a madman?

Modernization
Saddam consolidated power in a nation riddled with profound tensions. Long before Saddam, Iraq had been split along social, ethnic, religious, and economic fault lines: Sunni versus Shi'ite, Arab versus Kurd, tribal chief versus urban merchant, nomad versus peasant. Stable rule in a country rife with factionalism required the improvement of living standards. Saddam moved up the ranks in the new government by aiding attempts to strengthen and unify the Ba'ath party and taking a leading role in addressing the country's major domestic problems and expanding the party's following.

Saddam actively fostered the modernization of the Iraqi economy along with the creation of a strong security apparatus to prevent coups within the power structure and insurrections apart from it. Ever concerned with broadening his base of support among the diverse elements of Iraqi society and mobilizing mass support, he closely followed the administration of state welfare and development programs.

At the center of this strategy was Iraq's oil. On June 1, 1972, Saddam Hussein oversaw the seizure of international oil interests, which, at the time, had a monopoly on the country's oil. A year later, world oil prices rose dramatically as a result of the 1973 energy crisis, and skyrocketing revenues enabled Saddam to expand his agenda.

Within just a few years, Iraq was providing social services that were unprecedented among Middle Eastern countries. Saddam established and controlled the "National Campaign for the Eradication of Illiteracy" and the campaign for "Compulsory Free Education in Iraq," and largely under his auspices, the government established universal free schooling up to the highest education levels; hundreds of thousands learned to read in the years following the initiation of the program. The government also supported families of soldiers, granted free hospitalization to everyone, and gave subsidies to farmers. Iraq created one of the most modernized public-health systems in the Middle East, earning Saddam an award from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO). [12] [13]

To diversify the largely oil-based Economy of Iraq, Saddam implemented a national infrastructure campaign that made great progress in building roads, promoting mining, and developing other industries. The campaign revolutionized Iraq's energy industries. Electricity was brought to nearly every city in Iraq, and many outlying areas.

Before the 1970s, most of Iraq's people lived in the countryside, where Saddam himself was born and raised, and roughly two-thirds were peasants. But this number would decrease quickly during the 1970s as the country ploughed much of its oil profits into industrial expansion.

Nevertheless, Saddam focused intensely on fostering loyalty to the Ba'athist government in the rural areas. After nationalizing foreign oil interests, Saddam supervised the modernization of the countryside, mechanizing agriculture on a large scale, and distributing land to peasant farmers.[6] The Ba'athists established farm cooperatives, in which profits were distributed according to the labors of the individual and the unskilled were trained. The government's commitment to agrarian reform was demonstrated by the doubling of expenditures for agricultural development in 1974-1975. Moreover, agrarian reform in Iraq improved the living standard of the peasantry and increased production, though not to the levels Saddam had hoped for.

Saddam became personally associated with Ba'athist welfare and economic development programs in the eyes of many Iraqis, widening his appeal both within his traditional base and among new sectors of the population. These programs were part of a combination of "carrot and stick" tactics to enhance support in the working class, the peasantry, and within the party and the government bureaucracy.

Saddam's organizational prowess was credited with Iraq's rapid pace of development in the 1970s; development went forward at such a fevered pitch that two million persons from other Arab countries and Yugoslavia worked in Iraq to meet the growing demand for labor.

In 1976, Saddam rose to the position of general in the Iraqi armed forces. He rapidly became the strongman of the government. At the time Saddam was considered an enemy of communism and radical Islamism. Saddam was integral to U.S. policy in the region, a policy which sought to weaken the influence of Iran and the Soviet Union. As Iraq's weak and elderly President Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr became increasingly unable to execute his duties, Saddam took on an increasingly prominent role as the face of the government both internally and externally. He soon became the architect of Iraq's foreign policy and represented the nation in all diplomatic situations. He was the de facto ruler of Iraq some years before he formally came to power in 1979. He slowly began to consolidate his power over Iraq's government and the Ba'ath party. Relationships with fellow party members were carefully cultivated, and Saddam soon gained a powerful circle of support within the party.

[uppy]

I said he was and is a terrorists.

Please don't scream

[JLB]

We did this before you got kicked around pretty good so I'll just watch this time at your futile efforts I need popcorn.

[chickie]

This article almost tries to make the man look good. Is that why he raped woman, and killed them and their husbands if not allowed? Everyone knows that he needed to be removed from power, and if anyone wants to even try to sit back and applaud that man for anything that he is done, you need to go have your head checked.

He is a terrorists. He terrorized his own people!!

[uppy]

This article almost tries to make the man look good. Is that why he raped woman, and killed them and their husbands if not allowed? Everyone knows that he needed to be removed from power, and if anyone wants to even try to sit back and applaud that man for anything that he is done, you need to go have your head checked.

He is a terrorists. He terrorized his own people!!

The kind man even used WMD on his own people.

[shiva2999]

This article almost tries to make the man look good. Is that why he raped woman, and killed them and their husbands if not allowed? Everyone knows that he needed to be removed from power, and if anyone wants to even try to sit back and applaud that man for anything that he is done, you need to go have your head checked.

He is a terrorists. He terrorized his own people!!

That's the point. He didn't.

It's propaganda.

No rape rooms. No torture chambers. No paper shredders. No mass graves.

No WMDs. No ties to Al Qaeda.

You've been lied to chicky, and not by Saddam.

[chickie]

The kind man even used WMD on his own people.

Oh I am sure we can create quite the long list of his evil acts....but would they want to hear them?

[chickie]

That's the point. He didn't.

It's propaganda.

No rape rooms. No torture chambers. No paper shredders. No mass graves.

No WMDs. No ties to Al Qaeda.

You've been lied to chicky, and not by Saddam.

What?? Seriously....you think that he is just the "innocent" victim here??

[shiva2999]

The kind man even used WMD on his own people.

No he didn't.

And you know who backs me up on that, don't you.

The Pentagon.

[shiva2999]

What?? Seriously....you think that he is just the "innocent" victim here??

In many ways, yes. Along with the Iraqi people.

Why do you think the Saddam trial is such a farce?

They have nothing.

[shiva2999]

Oh I am sure we can create quite the long list of his evil acts....

Be my guest.

[chickie]

In many ways, yes. Along with the Iraqi people.

Why do you think the Saddam trial is such a farce?

They have nothing.

Are you out of your freaking mind?

Let me guess all the people who came forward to tell their stories of the totrure that Saddam and his sons inflicted on the Iraqis we really paid them so we would feel sorry for them right?

[shiva2999]

Are you out of your freaking mind?

Let me guess all the people who came forward to tell their stories of the totrure that Saddam and his sons inflicted on the Iraqis we really paid them so we would feel sorry for them right?

What stories were those?

And if you keep leading with sentences like "Are you out of your freaking mind?" you might get a reply leading with "Do you have a brain in your freaking head?"

I'm sure I've seen you object to that characterization. Why do it to me when I'm trying to talk to you seriously?

It's not nice.

[uppy]

No he didn't.

And you know who backs me up on that, don't you.

The Pentagon.

LMAO

Give me a brake...you even said thay brought it on them selfs (The Kurds)

[chickie]

What stories were those?

And if you keep leading with sentences like "Are you out of your freaking mind?" you might get a reply leading with "Do you have a brain in your freaking head?"

I'm sure I've seen you object to that characterization. Why do it to me when I'm trying to talk to you seriously?

It's not nice.

Point taken.....I will be nicer. I am just shocked and amazed that is all.

You heard the stories all the time on CNN, and what have you. THe stories printed on the internet. Back in the beginning of the war and even before the war, about the woman that were being raped, when the soccer team lost they got beat, if a man or husband tried to stop a rape from happening they would be killed, young teenage girls being raped. All that cannot be true.

I have to come back daughter needs me. but I am finding this intersting.

[shiva2999]

LMAO

Give me a brake...you even said thay brought it on them selfs (The Kurds)

No, I never said the Kurds were gassed by Saddam. The Pentagon says they were gassed by the Iranians.

What I said was the Kurds brought the war on themselves by traitorously allying with Iran in hopes of taking over their part of Iraq.

i wait to see what happens when Mexicans try to take over california by force.

[uppy]

No, I never said the Kurds were gassed by Saddam. The Pentagon says they were gassed by the Iranians.

What I said was the Kurds brought the war on themselves by traitorously allying with Iran in hopes of taking over their part of Iran.

i wait to see what happens when Mexicans try to take over california by force.

Don't make me bring up that thread....YOU implyed thay were in fact gassed

[sukie]

So it's the north left's contention that Saddam never posessed WMD's... Okee dokee.

[uppy]

So it's the north left's contention that Saddam never posessed WMD's... Okee dokee.

The north left forgets its past posts.

[sukie]

Right side of brain deficiency.

[shiva2999]

Point taken.....I will be nicer. I am just shocked and amazed that is all.

You heard the stories all the time on CNN, and what have you. THe stories printed on the internet. Back in the beginning of the war and even before the war, about the woman that were being raped, when the soccer team lost they got beat, if a man or husband tried to stop a rape from happening they would be killed, young teenage girls being raped. All that cannot be true.

I have to come back daughter needs me. but I am finding this intersting.

Okay, this is what you heard about the "mass graves"...

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html

Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

Download the report in PDF format
Since the Saddam Hussein regime was overthrown in May, 270 mass graves have been reported. By mid-January, 2004, the number of confirmed sites climbed to fifty-three. Some graves hold a few dozen bodies—their arms lashed together and the bullet holes in the backs of skulls testimony to their execution. Other graves go on for hundreds of meters, densely packed with thousands of bodies.

"We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

...more...


But I doubt you heard this...

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1263901,00.html

PM admits graves claim 'untrue'

Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor
Sunday July 18, 2004
The Observer

Downing Street has admitted to The Observer that repeated claims by Tony Blair that '400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves' is untrue, and only about 5,000 corpses have so far been uncovered.

The claims by Blair in November and December of last year, were given widespread credence, quoted by MPs and widely published, including in the introduction to a US government pamphlet on Iraq's mass graves.

In that publication - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves produced by USAID, the US government aid distribution agency, Blair is quoted from 20 November last year: 'We've already discovered, just so far, the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves.'

On 14 December Blair repeated the claim in a statement issued by Downing Street in response to the arrest of Saddam Hussein and posted on the Labour party website that: 'The remains of 400,000 human beings [have] already [been] found in mass graves.'

The admission that the figure has been hugely inflated follows a week in which Blair accepted responsibility for charges in the Butler report over the way in which Downing Street pushed intelligence reports 'to the outer limits' in the case for the threat posed by Iraq.

...more...

[sukie]

How many pro grave- anti grave links ya got? Shiva.

[shiva2999]

Don't make me bring up that thread....YOU implyed thay were in fact gassed

**** off.

Either quote me or STFU.

don't tell me what you think I said.

you already know what I think about how you think.

[shiva2999]

How many pro grave- anti grave links ya got? Shiva.

Don't play stupid.

Either obey the rules or sit on the sideline.

this is a no laughing hyenas thread.

[uppy]

**** off.

Either quote me or STFU.

don't tell me what you think I said.

you already know what I think about how you think.


Ok...to the Wayback Machine I go.

[K-Gun]

Pete never answered my question: How many Kurds does the HRW Report claim were killed by Iraqi gas. I found the number to be at 10,000. But Pete's the expert on the report, unfortunately he wouldn't share any of the pertinent info.

[JLB]

Pete never answered my question: How many Kurds does the HRW Report claim were killed by Iraqi gas. I found the number to be at 10,000. But Pete's the expert on the report, unfortunately he wouldn't share any of the pertinent info.

Pete's not here this can't continue without his expertise.:arizona:

[chickie]

Okay, this is what you heard about the "mass graves"...

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html

Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves

Download the report in PDF format
Since the Saddam Hussein regime was overthrown in May, 270 mass graves have been reported. By mid-January, 2004, the number of confirmed sites climbed to fifty-three. Some graves hold a few dozen bodies—their arms lashed together and the bullet holes in the backs of skulls testimony to their execution. Other graves go on for hundreds of meters, densely packed with thousands of bodies.

"We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

...more...


But I doubt you heard this...

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1263901,00.html

PM admits graves claim 'untrue'

Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor
Sunday July 18, 2004
The Observer

Downing Street has admitted to The Observer that repeated claims by Tony Blair that '400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves' is untrue, and only about 5,000 corpses have so far been uncovered.

The claims by Blair in November and December of last year, were given widespread credence, quoted by MPs and widely published, including in the introduction to a US government pamphlet on Iraq's mass graves.

In that publication - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves produced by USAID, the US government aid distribution agency, Blair is quoted from 20 November last year: 'We've already discovered, just so far, the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves.'

On 14 December Blair repeated the claim in a statement issued by Downing Street in response to the arrest of Saddam Hussein and posted on the Labour party website that: 'The remains of 400,000 human beings [have] already [been] found in mass graves.'

The admission that the figure has been hugely inflated follows a week in which Blair accepted responsibility for charges in the Butler report over the way in which Downing Street pushed intelligence reports 'to the outer limits' in the case for the threat posed by Iraq.

...more...


Ok, here is where my problem lies with this.

You have one source stating that in fact the mass graves are a fact and then you have another source that it is not true. So how can anyone even know what the truth is as opposed to a lie?

Do you know what I am saying?

I mean seriously how much of the information that we read online and hear on the TV is actual fact? Which is why I feel that we all end up basing our own opinion on what we believe is the truth.

I for one believe that Saddam is a terrorists, you however don't. We read the same information yet we have 2 opinions.

[sukie]

Don't play stupid.

Either obey the rules or sit on the sideline.

this is a no laughing hyenas thread.

Of course it is... You read a link and believe it as do we. Makes you correct it does not.

[uppy]

**** off.

Either quote me or STFU.

don't tell me what you think I said.

you already know what I think about how you think.

I can't find the thread...I will look for it some day when I have the time and book mark it.

Since I can't find it now....

http://www.dva.gov.au/images/commem/2005/png/bg_surrender.jpg

[shiva2999]

Ok, here is where my problem lies with this.

You have one source stating that in fact the mass graves are a fact and then you have another source that it is not true. So how can anyone even know what the truth is as opposed to a lie?

Do you know what I am saying?

I mean seriously how much of the information that we read online and hear on the TV is actual fact? Which is why I feel that we all end up basing our own opinion on what we believe is the truth.

I for one believe that Saddam is a terrorists, you however don't. We read the same information yet we have 2 opinions.

Read it again.

The first article is US propaganda quoting Tony Blair saying there ARE mass graves with 400,000 bodies in them. It was published in the run-up to the war.

The second article was published in 2004 and it has Tony Blair ADMITTING that he was wrong and only 5,000 bodies in mass graves were found.

I'm sure you heard about or read the first article.

I'm sure you didn't see the second article.

It has nothing to do with opinion.

These are facts.

[sukie]

But yet in October the same year... the BBC reports... Yup MASS GRAVES.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738368.stm

[sukie]

So Blair denies it in June and in October mass graves again .... Where's Blairs response to that one?

[SpikedLemonade]

Read it again.

The first article is US propaganda quoting Tony Blair saying there ARE mass graves with 400,000 bodies in them. It was published in the run-up to the war.

The second article was published in 2004 and it has Tony Blair ADMITTING that he was wrong and only 5,000 bodies in mass graves were found.

I'm sure you heard about or read the first article.

I'm sure you didn't see the second article.

It has nothing to do with opinion.

These are facts.

Shiva, you are an intellectual.

Some here would NOT accept that.

Assuming that some of us do, why do you try to debate those who are NOT?

I'm NOT trying to be an elitist, but is this NOT like trying to steal candy from babies?

[chickie]

Read it again.

The first article is US propaganda quoting Tony Blair saying there ARE mass graves with 400,000 bodies in them. It was published in the run-up to the war.

The second article was published in 2004 and it has Tony Blair ADMITTING that he was wrong and only 5,000 bodies in mass graves were found.

I'm sure you heard about or read the first article.

I'm sure you didn't see the second article.

It has nothing to do with opinion.

These are facts.


I hear what you are saying.....I really do, but there are never 2 reports the same...so how do you know what is the correct information and which is not?

It has everything to do with opinion. You read a story....I read a story....we sit down and discuss the story and I bet we would always come up with a different out take.

[sukie]

gopchick. i handled this Blair thing bottom of last page with no reply.

[shiva2999]

But yet in October the same year... the BBC reports... Yup MASS GRAVES.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738368.stm

LOL! Why don't you read the links you post?

This is just the BBC reporting what the Americans told them.

And who are these Americans?

From sukie's link...

Babies found in Iraqi mass grave

A mass grave being excavated in a north Iraqi village has yielded evidence that Iraqi forces executed women and children under Saddam Hussein.
US-led investigators have located nine trenches in Hatra containing hundreds of bodies believed to be Kurds killed during the repression of the 1980s.

The skeletons of unborn babies and toddlers clutching toys are being unearthed, the investigators said.

They are seeking evidence to try Saddam Hussein for crimes against humanity.

It is believed to be the first time investigators working for the Iraqi Special Tribunal (IST) have conducted a full scientific exhumation of a mass grave.

"It is my personal opinion that this is a killing field," Greg Kehoe, an American working with the IST, told reporters in Hatra, south of the city of Mosul.

"Someone used this field on significant occasions over time to take bodies up there, and to take people up there and execute them."

...more...


And who is Greg Kehoe?

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/04/29/Worldandnation/Tampa_lawyer_to_build.shtml

Iraq
Tampa lawyer to build case against Hussein
Greg Kehoe will guide an international effort to bring the former dictator to justice.
By CHRISTOPHER GOFFARD, Times Staff Writer
Published April 29, 2004

TAMPA - Tampa lawyer Greg Kehoe has been picked to serve as the regime crimes adviser in Baghdad, heading up the office that is building criminal cases against Saddam Hussein and his former top advisers.

Kehoe, 49, a former assistant U.S. attorney who has prosecuted Bosnian war crimes, will be leading a group of international specialists who will advise Iraqi judges and prosecutors on how to try leaders of the toppled Hussein regime.

"It's a pretty broad mandate," said Kehoe. "What they've told me is, "Help the Iraqis bring this to a court setting as soon as possible.' "

Kehoe's office will employ dozens of American and international investigators who will scour the former dictator's offices and palaces for evidence of genocide and other atrocities. He will also supervise the exhumation of corpses scattered across the country, presumed victims of Hussein's regime.

"Right now, the conservative estimate is there are approximately 300,000 bodies," Kehoe said. "It's crucial for the stability of the country to have a reckoning, so the country can go forward."

Kehoe, the son of a New York City police officer, is a big-shouldered former rugby player with a booming courtroom voice and a rapid patter seasoned by his childhood in the Bronx and Brooklyn.

Since Attorney General John Ashcroft appointed him to the post early this month, Kehoe has been immersing himself in books about the Middle East. At Borders and Barnes & Noble, he bought every book he could find on Iraq and Islam.

Every day, he says, he fields calls from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m., working to organize his Baghdad office, located in the palace where American officials are stationed.

...more...



Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Try again sukie.

[sukie]

Where is Blair's denial then... Most certainly he would have publicly (with the stiff upper British lip) went BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA on this report or is his June denial all encompassing future speak?

[uppy]

Read it again.

The first article is US propaganda quoting Tony Blair saying there ARE mass graves with 400,000 bodies in them. It was published in the run-up to the war.

The second article was published in 2004 and it has Tony Blair ADMITTING that he was wrong and only 5,000 bodies in mass graves were found.

I'm sure you heard about or read the first article.

I'm sure you didn't see the second article.

It has nothing to do with opinion.

These are facts.



http://www.kansasoz.com/infopic_frankmorgan2.jpg

Chick Pay no attention to the man behind the screen.

http://www.poster.net/wizard-of-oz-the/wizard-of-oz-the-photo-the-wizard-of-oz-6201971.jpg

He's from the north left.....he's not from Kansas

[shiva2999]

I hear what you are saying.....I really do, but there are never 2 reports the same...so how do you know what is the correct information and which is not?

It has everything to do with opinion. You read a story....I read a story....we sit down and discuss the story and I bet we would always come up with a different out take.

These quotes from Blair are not in dispute.

The claims were made and happily reported by Bush and Blair on page 1.

The admission that Blair was wrong was happily reported by no one in the US.

Why?

Why do you think?

[sukie]

BTW Shivous... isn't 5000 in a grave mass enough?

[coastal]

The dorks need to stay out of this thread.

Someone here truly wants to learn.

[shiva2999]

BTW Shivous... isn't 5000 in a grave mass enough?

They weren't in one grave doofus. It's the total in ALL the mass graves they found.

Oh, until the US "found" some more.

Anyway, Iran and Iraq fought a long and bloody war, hundreds of thousands were killed.

5,000 is peanuts considering what the country endured.

[sukie]

Don't use the word mass if you say there were no mass graves.

[uppy]

The dorks need to stay out of this thread.

Someone here truly wants to learn.

Who would that be ?

[shiva2999]

The dorks need to stay out of this thread.

They're the gatekeepers.

Can't have anyone learning anything.

Learning only leads to America hating.

[uppy]

5,000 is peanuts

Note to self..book mark this thread

[coastal]

Who would that be ?

I will kill my brother to save my soul.

[sukie]

Mass graves in Iraq are characterized as unmarked sites containing at least six bodies. [citation needed] Some can be identified by mounds of earth piled above the ground or as deep pits that appear to have been filled. Some older graves are more difficult to identify, having been covered by vegetation and debris over time. Sites have been discovered in all regions of the country and contain members of every major religious and ethnic group in Iraq as well as foreign nationals, including Kuwaitis and Saudis. Over 250 sites have been reported, of which approximately 40 have been confirmed to date. Over one million Iraqis are believed to be missing in Iraq as a result of executions, wars and defections, of whom hundreds of thousands are thought to be in mass graves.


An Iraqi woman mourns next to remains of bodies exhumed from a mass grave.
Most of the graves discovered to date correspond to one of five major atrocities perpetrated by the regime.
The 1983 attack against Kurdish citizens belonging to the Barzani tribe, 8,000 of whom were rounded up by the regime in northern Iraq and executed in deserts at great distances from their homes.
The 1988 Anfal campaign, during which as many as 182,000 people disappeared. Most of the men were separated from their families and were executed in deserts in the west and southwest of Iraq. The remains of some of their wives and children have also been found in mass graves.
Chemical attacks against Kurdish villages from 1986 to 1988, including the Halabja attack, when the Iraqi Air Force dropped sarin, VX and tabun chemical agents on the civilian population, killing 5,000 people immediately and causing long-term medical problems, related deaths, and birth defects among the progeny of thousands more.
The 1991 massacre of Iraqi Shia Muslims after the Shia uprising at the end of the Gulf war, in which tens of thousands of soldiers and civilians in such regions as Basra and Al-Hillah were killed.
A massacre of Kurds in 1991, which targeted civilians and soldiers who fought for autonomy in northern Iraq after the Gulf war, also resulted in mass graves.

[shiva2999]

5,000 is peanuts

Note to self..book mark this thread

5,000 is a weekend's work in fallujah for you guys.

Compared to the glorious liberators, Saddam was a piker.

[sukie]

182000 missing? What was it a sojourn to Jordan for a happy hour gone bad?

[shiva2999]

WTF are you talking about sukie?

You've completely lost me.

no links, cryptic comments, unidentified American officials.

Please.

[sukie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_grave#Iraq
your source!!!!

[uppy]

5,000 is a weekend's work in fallujah for you guys.

Compared to the glorious liberators, Saddam was a piker.

We kill terrorists ...not men women and children like you're hero did

[chickie]

5,000 is a weekend's work in fallujah for you guys.

Compared to the glorious liberators, Saddam was a piker.

Ok, now see there you go again saying what Saddam did was petty. What he did was not petty.

I am still reading the rest of this thread since I have just come back, but you still have not answered my question.

[uppy]

I will kill my brother to save my soul.

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.

[coastal]

We kill terrorists ...not men women and children like you're hero did


This is just dumb.

You know damn well we funded and built the military of Saddam Hussein so that Iran would not gain a foothold in the region.

We gave them just enough to win a stalemate.

And thousands of Iraqi's died in the process.

Our fingerprints are all over Iraq just as much if not more than Saddams.

And you know it.

[chickie]

We kill terrorists ...not men women and children like you're hero did

See that right there is what I don't get. He kills woman and children.......on purpose......we go over and take Saddam out now they are killling each other yet we are still to blame.....am I thinking wrong here.

I still totally side w/you and sukie on this.

I cannot see why we even argue over Saddam....he is a mad man.

I almost feel stupid....because the facts are so distorted.

[chickie]

This is just dumb.

You know damn well we funded and built the military of Saddam Hussein so that Iran would not gain a foothold in the region.

We gave them just enough to win a stalemate.

And thousands of Iraqi's died in the process.

Our fingerprints are all over Iraq just as much if not more than Saddams.

And you know it.

What....now you are bringing in more twists.....must everyone confuse me!

[coastal]

I'm out.

[sukie]

This is just dumb.

You know damn well we funded and built the military of Saddam Hussein so that Iran would not gain a foothold in the region.

We gave them just enough to win a stalemate.

And thousands of Iraqi's died in the process.

Our fingerprints are all over Iraq just as much if not more than Saddams.

And you know it.

So Smith and Wesson is responsible for all gun deaths? It was a transaction

[chickie]

I'm out.

You can't do that....you can't come in here and throw out an accusation and then quit....more back up

It is my impression...tell me if I am wrong that we supplied both Iraq and Iran in their war?? NO?

[chickie]

So Smith and Wesson is responsible for all gun deaths? It was a transaction

oh good point you are quick on your toes...

[TheGoodShepherd]

So Smith and Wesson is responsible for all gun deaths? It was a transaction

Why isn't the method in the study sound sukie?

[uppy]

This is just dumb.

You know damn well we funded and built the military of Saddam Hussein so that Iran would not gain a foothold in the region.

We gave them just enough to win a stalemate.

And thousands of Iraqi's died in the process.

Our fingerprints are all over Iraq just as much if not more than Saddams.

And you know it.

Damn right we funded him,Iran's Islamic wingnuts took over our Embassy

and were trying to kill the world economy by shutting down the strait of

hormuz.

Mr.Reagan Kept the strait's open by flagging tankers with USA flag and

sending our war ships in to protect them.

The enemy of our enemy is our friend....he however out lived his use,

and now he is gone.

Plus don't forget Ollie North made money and helped fight commies in central

America with the coin we made with the deal.

It was a win-win.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Damn right we funded him,Iran's Islamic wingnuts took over our Embassy

and were trying to kill the world economy by shutting down the strait of

hormuz.

Mr.Reagan Kept the strait's open by flagging tankers with USA flag and

sending our war ships in to protect them.

The enemy of our enemy is our friend....he however out lived his use,

and now he is gone.

Plus don't forget Ollie North made money and helped fight commies in central

America with the coin we made with the deal.

It was a win-win.

Question upstart.

Is it ok for every other nation to behave like America does?

[sukie]

:popcorn: waiting for that answer

[uppy]

Question upstart.

Is it ok for every other nation to behave like America does?


If every other nation lived by the same Principles the USA does we would have world peace.We are not the bad guys chimps.

[TheGoodShepherd]

If every other nation lived by the same Principles the USA does we would have world peace.We are not the bad guys chimps.

What principle's are those?

And btw, I dont hate the USA.

I love it more than you do.( which isnt that much but still more than you)

You hate it. Not me.

[uppy]

What principle's are those ?

The same principle's that make people all over the world try to come to
America...and live in peace with no fear.

If you don't understand this ......stay in the north left.

We don't need more clowns hear.

we have Philly.

:)

[chickie]

Ok I have just come back ...... had to watch LOST.... I hate that show becaue I am more LOST everytime I watch it.

Uppy I totally agree with your posts.

No other country has the principles that America has. We really don't want to be the bad guys. I have sid this several times...we are alwys in a catch 22....and it sucks.

[35Pete]

Ok. I'm back. Been offline 3 days. PC blew up so I went out, bought the parts and built an entire new one from scratch. A goddamned supercomputer.

Fill me in folks. Who's full of shit and needs immediate education? :D

[TheGoodShepherd]

Ok I have just come back ...... had to watch LOST.... I hate that show becaue I am more LOST everytime I watch it.

Uppy I totally agree with your posts.

No other country has the principles that America has. We really don't want to be the bad guys. I have sid this several times...we are alwys in a catch 22....and it sucks.

I agree.

Not too many countries have a history of misleading their people and leading them into a heartless war of selfishness.

And please, Canada has better principles than *cough cough* the US.

[35Pete]

I agree.

Not too many countries have a history of misleading their people and leading them into a heartless war of selfishness.

And please, Canada has better principles than *cough cough* the US.

Most people on the planet don't even know where Canada is.

[JLB]

Most people on the planet don't even know where Canada is.

Why's that Pete?
ROFLMAO!!

[uppy]

Not too many countries have a history of misleading their people and leading them into a heartless war of selfishness.

heartless war of selfishness...LMAO

I love your diatribes chimp,

its great enterment.

[uppy]

Why's that Pete?
ROFLMAO!!



"I don't even know what street Canada is on."
- Al Capone

[JLB]

"I don't even know what street Canada is on."
- Al Capone

Did he really say that? lmao!!

[K-Gun]

Most people on the planet don't even know where Canada is.

I'm sure they prefer it that way.

[35Pete]

This is for TMR but also for the rest of you who are shakey with the history of Saddam and Iraq.

The best place to start is right here with Wikipedia's history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein

If everyone reads it we'll all be up to speed and we can go from there.

Please, cuz if I read one more "Saddam was a madman" piece of ignorance I'm going to scream.

Saddam was NOT a madman.

In fact, if you got with the program he was pretty darn good to his people.

No need to address this folks. I completely anihilated this nonsense two months ago with several well written reports from Human Rights Watch, a source that Shiva has quoted in the past.

This is bogus. Not worth the time.

[jimmifli]

I went out, bought the parts and built an entire new one from scratch. A goddamned supercomputer.

Pete's posts have more merit because he is smart enough to build his own computer.

[TRIPLE P]

I said he was and is a terrorists.




He is a terrorists. He terrorized his own people!!


I thinks thats he's nots a terrorists.

[35Pete]

Shiva. This intellectual beating comes back to haunt you.

http://www.buffalorange.com/showthread.php?t=94606&highlight=Human+Rights+Watch

[35Pete]

Pete's posts have more merit because he is smart enough to build his own computer.

See post #85.

[shiva2999]

Shiva. This intellectual beating comes back to haunt you.

http://www.buffalorange.com/showthread.php?t=94606&highlight=Human+Rights+Watch

You know Pete, I'd be much more inclined to take you seriously in the science threads if you were less cavalier with the truth in the non-science threads.

[35Pete]

You know Pete, I'd be much more inclined to take you seriously in the science threads if you were less cavalier with the truth in the non-science threads.

Shiva. Why you bring up a nonsense thread like this after I, and a few righties hammered you guys in the thread that I mentioned is completely puzzling. And not a single blog was used. :hmm:

[ticatfan3]

Saddam Proud He Still Killed More Iraqi Civilians Than U.S.
April 16, 2003 | Issue 39•14

BAGHDAD, IRAQ—Reflecting on his time as Iraq's president in a pre-taped television address, Saddam Hussein expressed pride Tuesday that, despite the success of the U.S. invasion and the civilian casualties it has inflicted, he still has killed far more Iraqis than President Bush.


Enlarge Image

Saddam greets admirers during his late-'90s Iraqi-killing heyday.
"George Bush believes he is so powerful, so strong," Saddam said. "But even with all of his bombs and missiles and Marines, he has not even come close to killing as many Iraqis as I did."

While estimates of the number of Iraqi civilians killed by the U.S. ranges from 500 all the way to 10,000, Saddam and his associates are believed to have murdered somewhere between 100,000 and 250,000 civilians since 1968.

"The international press counts off on their fingers every Iraqi that dies by Bush's missiles," Saddam said. "The papers make a big story of it when six Iraqi civilians are killed by American GIs near Basra, or when 15 Iraqi civilians are killed in air strikes on Baghdad. What paltry death tolls. I cannot even begin to add up how many died in Basra upon my orders, how many in Baghdad I killed with my own gun."

Throughout his presidency, Saddam said he routinely had political opponents arrested and put to death without trial, sometimes along with their entire families. He also summarily executed countless citizens for crimes as minor as petty theft and "monopolizing rationed goods."

"The race between myself and Bush is not even close," Saddam said. "I easily killed 100 times more men than Bush, not to mention women and children. That's right—women and children."

In his suppression of the Shiite Muslims alone, Saddam said he can lay claim to thousands more Iraqi kills than Bush.

"My officers did more damage rounding up students at [the Shiite Muslim theological institution] al-Hawza al-'Ilmiya in al-Najaf than the entire American 3rd Infantry did roaring through all of southern Iraq in their billion-dollar tanks," Saddam said. "And my men did not put down their guns just because someone asked for mercy. They finished the job like soldiers. They did not serve food to their enemies as if they were women at a picnic."

Saddam boasted that the 1988 Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds added another 50,000 to his tally.

"In Anfal, we rounded up the battle-age men and put them in front of firing squads," Saddam said. "Even today, when you travel through rural Kurdistan, you notice the high proportion of women. That is not because of the U.S. Army. That is not because of the 101st Airborne Division. It is because of me—Saddam Hussein, President of Iraq, the Glorious Leader, the Anointed One, Direct Descendant of the Prophet, Great Uncle to the People."

In his campaigns against the Kurds, Saddam crushed unrest with chemical-weapons strikes against civilian populations—a tactic he said Bush "would never have the nerve to do."

"I remember the day my cousin [Commander of Southern Forces] Ali [Hassan al-Majid] dropped chemical weapons on the town of Halabja," said Saddam, referring to the March 1988 slaughter of 5,000 Kurds. "That is how he got his nickname, 'Chemical Ali.' Much better nickname than 'Dubya,' wouldn't you say?"

"The total number of Kurds we killed could be as high as 110,000, and that is not just an idle boast," Saddam said. "The United Nations Sub-Committee on Human Rights has been keeping extensive records of my actions for years."

In fairness to Bush, Saddam conceded that he has had a significant head start killing Iraqis, beginning his political career in the late '60s as a torturer for the Ba'ath party.

"Back in 1969, I turned the execution of 14 alleged anti-government plotters into a major public event, hanging them in a town square and leaving their bodies on display," Saddam said. "Already everyone knew my name, and this was still a good 10 years before I would carry out the wave of executions that signaled my rise to power."

In addition to killings, Saddam said he bests Bush in the torture department.

"There is a certain type of torture, which is called al-Khaygania—so named in honor of its creator, former security director al-Khaygani—in which the victim is handcuffed and suspended on a piece of wood between two chairs like a chicken," Saddam said. "Then, we attach an electric wire to the man's penis and toes. Can you see Bush doing this? Can you see Bush smashing a man's skull with a brick? Can you see him calling for the deaths of his own family members? Pah, he is too weak."

Saddam closed with harsh words for his American rival.

"I recently heard a critic of President Bush say he is a dictator," Saddam said. "That made me laugh. George Bush, a dictator! My sons Uday and Qusay showed more viciousness at 10 years of age."

"Bush has a long way to go before he can match me," Saddam added. "My hands are red with the blood of the innocent. His are merely a light pink."

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27970

[deconstruction]

What principle's are those ?

The same principle's that make people all over the world try to come to
America...and live in peace with no fear.

If you don't understand this ......stay in the north left.

We don't need more clowns hear.

we have Philly.

:)

People come here because they can make money and and live freely.

[Victor7]

No other country has the principles that America has. We really don't want to be the bad guys.

lol !! .......... instant comedy !

[JLB]

Shiva. Why you bring up a nonsense thread like this after I, and a few righties hammered you guys in the thread that I mentioned is completely puzzling. And not a single blog was used. :hmm:

Maybe he needs to re-visit that slaughter?

[ticatfan3]

Maybe he needs to re-visit that slaughter?Some people are buggers for punishment.

[K-Gun]

Maybe he needs to re-visit that slaughter?

Maybe Pete needs to answer the questions that were asked of him, now for the fifth time without answer.

How many Kirds does the HRW Report say Saddam gassed, Pete?

[ticatfan3]

Survey: Saddam killed 61,000 in Baghdad
( 2003-12-09 08:49) (Agencies)


Saddam Hussein's government may have executed 61,000 Baghdad residents, a number significantly higher than previously believed, according to a survey obtained Monday by The Associated Press.



The bloodiest massacres of Saddam's 23-year presidency occurred in Iraq's Kurdish north and Shiite Muslim south, but the Gallup Baghdad Survey data indicates the brutality extended strongly into the capital as well.


The survey, which the polling firm planned to release on Tuesday, asked 1,178 Baghdad residents in August and September whether a member of their household had been executed by Saddam's regime. According to Gallup, 6.6 percent said yes.


The polling firm took metropolitan Baghdad's population ¡ª 6.39 million ¡ª and average household size ¡ª 6.9 people ¡ª to calculate that 61,000 people were executed during Saddam's rule. Past estimates were in the low tens of thousands. Most are believed to have been buried in mass graves.


The U.S.-led occupation authority in Iraq has said that at least 300,000 people are buried in mass graves in Iraq. Human rights officials put the number closer to 500,000, and some Iraqi political parties estimate more than 1 million were executed.


Without exhumations of those graves, it is impossible to confirm a figure. Scientists told The Associated Press during a recent investigation that they have confirmed 41 mass graves on a list of suspected sites that currently includes 270 locations.


Forensic teams will begin to exhume four of those graves next month in search of evidence for a new tribunal, expected to be established this week, that will try members of the former regime for crimes against humanity and genocide. More graves will later be added to the list.


But nobody expects all the mass graves to be exhumed, and nobody expects to ever know the full number of Iraqis executed by their government.


Richard Burkholder, who headed Gallup's Baghdad team, said the numbers in Baghdad could be high for two reasons: People may have understood "household" to be broader than just the people living at their address; and some families may have moved to the capital from other areas since the executions occurred.


"Anecdotal accounts start to support it, but they don't get you to 60,000," he said in a telephone interview from Princeton, N.J.


Even reducing the numbers slightly because of those possibilities, however, Burkholder said the number of executions the data suggest is higher than previously estimated, in the low tens of thousands.


The deadliest atrocity associated with Saddam's government was the scorched-earth campaign known as the "Anfal," in which the government killed an estimated 180,000 Kurds in Iraq's far north. Many were buried in mass graves far from home in the southern desert.


Another 60,000 people are believed to have been killed when Saddam violently suppressed rebellions by Shiite Muslims in the south and Kurds in the north at the close of the 1991 Gulf War.


Sandra Hodgkinson, director of the U.S.-led occupation authority's human rights office, estimated that some 50,000 others were executed during Saddam's reign, including Kurds killed in chemical attacks and political prisoners sent to execution.


That 50,000 figure also would include prisoners killed in Baghdad.


The survey, which had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points, was conducted in face-to-face interviews in Baghdad residents' homes from Aug. 28 and Sept. 4.


The people were selected at random from all geographic sectors of the Baghdad metropolitan area, and more than nine in 10 agreed to participate. That's at least double the response rate for many U.S. telephone polls.

C
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-12/09/content_288443.htm

[ticatfan3]

http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hrdossier.pdf#search=%22saddam%20kills%20kurds%22

[chickie]

People come here because they can make money and and live freely.

Exactly! They come here because they know they will live a better life. Because we live in a country where everyone has the right to make their own choices. So if other countries had the same PRINCIPALS as us then why do they want to come here so bad??

AMERICA is not so bad after all, now is it? Like I said yesterday. We don't have leadership anymore because everyone is to busy being "politically correct". We need to stop playing footsies w/these damn special interests groups and grow some damn balls.

[chickie]

Survey: Saddam killed 61,000 in Baghdad
( 2003-12-09 08:49) (Agencies)


Saddam Hussein's government may have executed 61,000 Baghdad residents, a number significantly higher than previously believed, according to a survey obtained Monday by The Associated Press.



The bloodiest massacres of Saddam's 23-year presidency occurred in Iraq's Kurdish north and Shiite Muslim south, but the Gallup Baghdad Survey data indicates the brutality extended strongly into the capital as well.


The survey, which the polling firm planned to release on Tuesday, asked 1,178 Baghdad residents in August and September whether a member of their household had been executed by Saddam's regime. According to Gallup, 6.6 percent said yes.


The polling firm took metropolitan Baghdad's population ¡ª 6.39 million ¡ª and average household size ¡ª 6.9 people ¡ª to calculate that 61,000 people were executed during Saddam's rule. Past estimates were in the low tens of thousands. Most are believed to have been buried in mass graves.


The U.S.-led occupation authority in Iraq has said that at least 300,000 people are buried in mass graves in Iraq. Human rights officials put the number closer to 500,000, and some Iraqi political parties estimate more than 1 million were executed.


Without exhumations of those graves, it is impossible to confirm a figure. Scientists told The Associated Press during a recent investigation that they have confirmed 41 mass graves on a list of suspected sites that currently includes 270 locations.


Forensic teams will begin to exhume four of those graves next month in search of evidence for a new tribunal, expected to be established this week, that will try members of the former regime for crimes against humanity and genocide. More graves will later be added to the list.


But nobody expects all the mass graves to be exhumed, and nobody expects to ever know the full number of Iraqis executed by their government.


Richard Burkholder, who headed Gallup's Baghdad team, said the numbers in Baghdad could be high for two reasons: People may have understood "household" to be broader than just the people living at their address; and some families may have moved to the capital from other areas since the executions occurred.


"Anecdotal accounts start to support it, but they don't get you to 60,000," he said in a telephone interview from Princeton, N.J.


Even reducing the numbers slightly because of those possibilities, however, Burkholder said the number of executions the data suggest is higher than previously estimated, in the low tens of thousands.


The deadliest atrocity associated with Saddam's government was the scorched-earth campaign known as the "Anfal," in which the government killed an estimated 180,000 Kurds in Iraq's far north. Many were buried in mass graves far from home in the southern desert.


Another 60,000 people are believed to have been killed when Saddam violently suppressed rebellions by Shiite Muslims in the south and Kurds in the north at the close of the 1991 Gulf War.


Sandra Hodgkinson, director of the U.S.-led occupation authority's human rights office, estimated that some 50,000 others were executed during Saddam's reign, including Kurds killed in chemical attacks and political prisoners sent to execution.


That 50,000 figure also would include prisoners killed in Baghdad.


The survey, which had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points, was conducted in face-to-face interviews in Baghdad residents' homes from Aug. 28 and Sept. 4.


The people were selected at random from all geographic sectors of the Baghdad metropolitan area, and more than nine in 10 agreed to participate. That's at least double the response rate for many U.S. telephone polls.

C
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-12/09/content_288443.htm


Very interesting reading.

[sukie]

We need a Reagan.

[chickie]

We need a Reagan.

I have a Reagan....she is only 2 right now but she is being properly groomed
!!:phaser: She will take em down!

[35Pete]

Maybe Pete needs to answer the questions that were asked of him, now for the fifth time without answer.

How many Kirds does the HRW Report say Saddam gassed, Pete?

Uhhhmmm. Pot calling kettle black. I asked you a ton of questions first in that thread and you never answered any of them. You kept trying to drag the topic off subject cause' you were getting killed. Typical Shivaesque tactic.

And you are just plain being dishonest. I started tallying all the dead Kurds from SEVERAL HRW reports, got up to 7 or 8,000 and stopped.

Is that not enough for you? Go check the thread. It's there. With citatations and links.

[sukie]

Pete... that's how it works here... You ask a few questions they respond with one and demand an answer.

[rob on the job]

...How many Kirds does the HRW Report say Saddam gassed, Pete?

I can't speak for HRW because I don't know what its agenda is.

However, an organization with similar aims -- Gendercide -- posted this in a remarkably researched and detailed analysis:

The anti-Kurdish "Anfal" campaign, mounted between February and September 1988 by the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, was both genocidal and gendercidal in nature. "Battle-age" men were the primary targets of Anfal, according to Human Rights Watch/Middle East (hereafter, HRW/ME). The organization writes in its book Iraq's Crime of Genocide: "Throughout Iraqi Kurdistan, although women and children vanished in certain clearly defined areas, adult males who were captured disappeared en masse. ... It is apparent that a principal purpose of Anfal was to exterminate all adult males of military service age captured in rural Iraqi Kurdistan" (pp. 96, 170). Only a handful survived the execution squads.

... According to HRW/ME, "at least fifty thousand rural Kurds ... died in Anfal alone, and very possibly the real figure was twice that number ... All told, the total number of Kurds killed over the decade since the Barzani men were taken from their homes is well into six figures." "On the basis of extensive interviews in Kurdistan and perusal of extant Iraqi documents, Shoresh Resoul, a meticulous Kurdish researcher ... conservatively estimated that 'between 60,000 and 110,000' died during [al-]Majid's Kurdish mandate," i.e., beginning shortly before Anfal and ending shortly afterwards. (Randal, After Such Knowledge ..., p. 214.) Other Kurdish estimates are even higher. "When Kurdish leaders met with Iraqi government officials in the wake of the spring 1991 uprising, they raised the question of the Anfal dead and mentioned a figure of 182,000 -- a rough extrapolation based on the number of destroyed villages. Ali Hassan al-Majid reportedly jumped to his feet in a rage when the discussion took this turn. 'What is this exaggerated figure of 182,000?' he is said to have asked. 'It couldn't have been more than 100,000' -- as if this somehow mitigated the catastrophe that he and his subordinates had visited on the Iraqi Kurds." (Iraq's Crime of Genocide, pp. 14, 230.)

It is impossible to state with certainty what proportion of the victims of Anfal were adult men and adolescent boys. The most detailed investigation, conducted by HRW/ME, tabulated the number of "disappeared" from the various stages of Anfal, based on field interviews with some 350 survivors. The organization gathered the names of 1,255 men, 184 women, and 359 children -- "only a fraction of the numbers lost during Anfal." This would suggest that some 87 percent of the adults "disappeared," all of whom were apparently executed, were male; and that about 70 percent of all those who "disappeared" were "battle-age" males. (See Iraq's Crime of Genocide, pp. 266-68.) These calculations do not, however, include the large number of Kurdish civilians killed indiscriminately in chemical attacks and other generalized assaults.

Most recently, Kenneth Roth, director of Human Rights Watch, has referred to "100,000 Kurdish men and boys machine-gunned to death during the 1988 Anfal genocide." (Roth, "Show Trials Are Not the Solution to Saddam's Heinous Reign", The Globe and Mail, 18 July 2003.)

Who was responsible?

The tens of thousands of Anfal deaths, according to HRW/ME,
did not come in the heat of battle -- as 'collateral damage,' in the military euphemism. Nor were they the result of acts of aberration by individual commanders whose excesses passed unnoticed or unpunished by their superiors. Rather, these Kurds were systematically put to death in large numbers by order of the central Iraqi government in Baghdad days or weeks after being rounded up in villages marked for destruction or while fleeing army assaults in "prohibited areas." ... Documentary materials captured from the Iraqi intelligence agencies demonstrate with great clarity that the mass killings, disappearances, and forced relocations associated with Anfal and the other anti-Kurdish campaigns of 1987-89 were planned in a coherent fashion. Although power over these campaigns was highly centralized, their success depended on the orchestration of the efforts of a large number of agencies and institutions at the local, regional, and national level, from the office of the president of the republic down to the lowliest jahsh [pro-Iraqi Kurdish] unit. (Iraq's Crime of Genocide, pp. xvii, 9-10. For more on the role of the pro-regime Kurdish forces, which were crucial in the Anfal roundups, see pp. 109-12, and Kanan Makiya, Cruelty and Silence, pp. 143-45.)

Noam Chomsky called Saddam Hussein's Iraq "perhaps the most violent and repressive state in the world." (Quoted in Makiya, Cruelty and Silence, p. 273; see also the analysis of Iraqi conscription policies elsewhere on this site.) Atop the state structure stood the murderous dictator. In classic "patrimonial" fashion, Saddam constructed a brutal one-party regime consisting largely of his relatives from Tikrit and surrounding areas. (For a powerful description of Saddam's rule-by-terror, see Kanan Makiya, Republic of Fear: The Politics of Modern Iraq.) The Ba'ath Party's "point man" during the worst of the atrocities in Iraqi Kurdistan was, as noted, Ali Hassan al-Majid. After Anfal, he was transferred from his post, to become -- in August 1990 -- the governor of Iraqi-occupied Kuwait.

link: http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/wfaa/09-06/0905_telethon250.jpg

[K-Gun]

Uhhhmmm. Pot calling kettle black. I asked you a ton of questions first in that thread and you never answered any of them. You kept trying to drag the topic off subject cause' you were getting killed. Typical Shivaesque tactic.

And you are just plain being dishonest. I started tallying all the dead Kurds from SEVERAL HRW reports, got up to 7 or 8,000 and stopped.

Is that not enough for you? Go check the thread. It's there. With citatations and links.

Funny Pete, as I recall, I was citing a Defense Intelligence Report, and you countered with a Human Rights Watch Report. And now, all of a sudden, the responsibility was on me to read all 300 + pages in order to prove "my" point.

See, you don't even know what my point was, because you refused to read it, and refused to respond to it. I did in fact read up on the subject, and my count was at around 10,000 and that seemed inclusive. But I could be wrong, that's why I kept asking you for your total count. It was after all your source for your argument.

If you recall, I was assuming for the sake of argument that the HRW Report was factual, I was granting you that for purposes of discussion (a fact you took for granted) and I was trying to bring attention to the context of the gassing.

It’s my belief that you have to understand the total circumstance before making a moral pronouncement. But hey, if you think killing 8 or 10,000 people who are at war with your country is the same as killing 6 million innocent Jews, go for it.

[sukie]

I knew Robbo would chime in on anything Kurdish.

[rob on the job]

I knew Robbo would chime in on anything Kurdish.

Gotta protect the brothers.

[K-Gun]

Gotta protect the brothers.

Why did they take up arms with Iran, against Iraq? We're they being killed before doing this?

[rob on the job]

Why did they take up arms with Iran, against Iraq? We're they being killed before doing this?

Again, Gendercide gives a detailed history that shows how the Kurds were screwed over repeatedly ... and not just by Saddam:

The Kurds are considered the world's largest nation without a state of their own. Numbering approximately 20-25 million people, their traditional territory is divided among the modern states of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria, with a small number in the states of the former Soviet Union. Just over four million of these Kurds live in Iraq, constituting about 23 percent of the population.

In the wake of World War I, with U.S. President Woodrow Wilson's call for "self-determination" echoing loudly, the Kurds were promised a homeland -- Kurdistan -- in the Treaty of Sèvres (1920). However, the victorious allies backed away from their pledge in an attempt to court the new Turkish regime of Kemal Ataturk, and in fear of destabilizing Iraq and Syria, which were granted to Britain and France, respectively, as mandated territories. The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne thus reneged on Kurdish independence and divided the Kurds among Turkey, Iraq, and Syria. Ataturk's discrimination against Turkey's Kurdish population began almost immediately, with Kurdish political groups and manifestations of cultural identity banned outright. In the immediate aftermath of the Second World War, the Kurds of Iran, with Soviet support, succeeded in establishing the first independent Kurdish state (the Kurdish Republic of Mahabad). But this was quickly crushed by Iranian troops.

In 1946, an Iraqi Kurd, Mustafa Barzani, founded the Kurdistan Democratic Party - Iraq (KDP). Barzani died in 1979, but the KDP remains one of the most prominent Kurdish resistance organizations. Its more radical rival, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), was founded in 1975 by Jalal Talabani. It was the PUK that would bear the brunt of the Anfal campaign in 1988.

The ascent to power of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein in 1968 (though he did not become president until 1979) at first seemed to augur well for the Iraqi Kurds. In 1970, Saddam's Ba'ath Party reached a wideranging agreement with the Kurdish rebel groops, granting the Kurds the right to use and broadcast their language, as well as a considerable degree of political autonomy. But the agreement broke down when the Ba'ath Party "embarked on the Arabization of the oil-producing areas in Kurdistan, evicting Kurdish farmers and replacing them with poor Arab tribesmen [and women] from the south, guarded by government troops." In March 1974, the KDP rose up against Saddam, sparking a fullscale war the following year, when some 130,000 Kurds fled to Iran. "In March 1975," writes Khaled Salih, "tens of thousands of villagers from the Barzani tribes were forcibly removed from their homes and relocated to barren sites in the desert south of Iraq, where they had to rebuild their lives by themselves, without any form of assistance." (Khaled, "Anfal: The Kurdish Genocide in Iraq".)

It was these displaced populations of Barzani tribespeople who, after the onset of the Iran-Iraq war in 1980, would fall prey to one of the largest gendercidal massacres of modern times. ...

... As Human Rights Watch noted, "In many respects, the 1983 Barzani operation foreshadowed the techniques that would be used on a much larger scale during the Anfal campaign." (Human Rights Watch, Iraq's Crime of Genocide, pp. 4, 26-27.) Khaled Salih notes that "No doubt, the absence of any international outcry encouraged Baghdad to believe that it could get away with an even larger operation without any hostile reaction. In this respect the Ba'ath Party seems to have been correct in its calculations and judgement of the international inaction."

link: http://www.gendercide.org/case_anfal.html

[K-Gun]

Again, Gendercide gives a detailed history that shows how the Kurds were screwed over repeatedly ... and not just by Saddam:

The Kurds are considered the world's largest nation without a state of their own. Numbering approximately 20-25 million people, their traditional territory is divided among the modern states of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria, with a small number in the states of the former Soviet Union. Just over four million of these Kurds live in Iraq, constituting about 23 percent of the population.

In the wake of World War I, with U.S. President Woodrow Wilson's call for "self-determination" echoing loudly, the Kurds were promised a homeland -- Kurdistan -- in the Treaty of Sèvres (1920). However, the victorious allies backed away from their pledge in an attempt to court the new Turkish regime of Kemal Ataturk, and in fear of destabilizing Iraq and Syria, which were granted to Britain and France, respectively, as mandated territories. The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne thus reneged on Kurdish independence and divided the Kurds among Turkey, Iraq, and Syria. Ataturk's discrimination against Turkey's Kurdish population began almost immediately, with Kurdish political groups and manifestations of cultural identity banned outright. In the immediate aftermath of the Second World War, the Kurds of Iran, with Soviet support, succeeded in establishing the first independent Kurdish state (the Kurdish Republic of Mahabad). But this was quickly crushed by Iranian troops.

In 1946, an Iraqi Kurd, Mustafa Barzani, founded the Kurdistan Democratic Party - Iraq (KDP). Barzani died in 1979, but the KDP remains one of the most prominent Kurdish resistance organizations. Its more radical rival, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), was founded in 1975 by Jalal Talabani. It was the PUK that would bear the brunt of the Anfal campaign in 1988.

The ascent to power of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein in 1968 (though he did not become president until 1979) at first seemed to augur well for the Iraqi Kurds. In 1970, Saddam's Ba'ath Party reached a wideranging agreement with the Kurdish rebel groops, granting the Kurds the right to use and broadcast their language, as well as a considerable degree of political autonomy. But the agreement broke down when the Ba'ath Party "embarked on the Arabization of the oil-producing areas in Kurdistan, evicting Kurdish farmers and replacing them with poor Arab tribesmen [and women] from the south, guarded by government troops." In March 1974, the KDP rose up against Saddam, sparking a fullscale war the following year, when some 130,000 Kurds fled to Iran. "In March 1975," writes Khaled Salih, "tens of thousands of villagers from the Barzani tribes were forcibly removed from their homes and relocated to barren sites in the desert south of Iraq, where they had to rebuild their lives by themselves, without any form of assistance." (Khaled, "Anfal: The Kurdish Genocide in Iraq".)

It was these displaced populations of Barzani tribespeople who, after the onset of the Iran-Iraq war in 1980, would fall prey to one of the largest gendercidal massacres of modern times. ...

... As Human Rights Watch noted, "In many respects, the 1983 Barzani operation foreshadowed the techniques that would be used on a much larger scale during the Anfal campaign." (Human Rights Watch, Iraq's Crime of Genocide, pp. 4, 26-27.) Khaled Salih notes that "No doubt, the absence of any international outcry encouraged Baghdad to believe that it could get away with an even larger operation without any hostile reaction. In this respect the Ba'ath Party seems to have been correct in its calculations and judgement of the international inaction."

link: http://www.gendercide.org/case_anfal.html


So the Kurds started killing Iraqis in 1974 because Iraq drilled oil in Northern Iraq?

[JLB]

Why did they take up arms with Iran, against Iraq? We're they being killed before doing this?

JKiG just noticed your sig. Great one!!!:arizona:

[rob on the job]

So the Kurds started killing Iraqis in 1974 because Iraq drilled oil in Northern Iraq?

Maybe you missed this part:

... But the agreement broke down when the Ba'ath Party "embarked on the Arabization of the oil-producing areas in Kurdistan, evicting Kurdish farmers and replacing them with poor Arab tribesmen [and women] from the south, guarded by government troops." In March 1974, the KDP rose up against Saddam, sparking a fullscale war the following year, when some 130,000 Kurds fled to Iran. "In March 1975," writes Khaled Salih, "tens of thousands of villagers from the Barzani tribes were forcibly removed from their homes and relocated to barren sites in the desert south of Iraq, where they had to rebuild their lives by themselves, without any form of assistance." ...

[rob on the job]

Maybe you missed this part:

... But the agreement broke down when the Ba'ath Party "embarked on the Arabization of the oil-producing areas in Kurdistan, evicting Kurdish farmers and replacing them with poor Arab tribesmen [and women] from the south, guarded by government troops." In March 1974, the KDP rose up against Saddam, sparking a fullscale war the following year, when some 130,000 Kurds fled to Iran. "In March 1975," writes Khaled Salih, "tens of thousands of villagers from the Barzani tribes were forcibly removed from their homes and relocated to barren sites in the desert south of Iraq, where they had to rebuild their lives by themselves, without any form of assistance." ...

Next question?

[rob on the job]

More detail on the early troubles between Saddam and the Kurds from Khaled Salih:

As such, Anfal was a logical extension of nearly two decades of government Arabization of the Kurdish areas. For all its horror, Anfal was not entirely unprecedented, because terrible atrocities had been visited on the Kurds by the Ba'th Party on many occasions particuraly since 1968. ...

Evacuation, Punishment, and Waste
In the mid- and late 1970s, the regime again moved against the Kurds, forcibly evacuating at least a quarter of a million people from Iraq's borders with Iraq and Turkey, destroying their villages to create a cordon sanitaire along these sensitive frontiers. Most of the displaced Kurds were relocated into mujamma'at, crude new settlements located on the main highways in army-controlled areas of Iraqi Kurdistan. ...

Since 1975, over 4,000 Kurdish villages had been destroyed; by a conservative estimate more than 100,000 rural Kurds had died in Anfal alone; half of Iraq's productive farmland is believed to have been laid waste.

link: http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/his/Khaledtext.html

[35Pete]

Funny Pete, as I recall, I was citing a Defense Intelligence Report, and you countered with a Human Rights Watch Report. And now, all of a sudden, the responsibility was on me to read all 300 + pages in order to prove "my" point.

See, you don't even know what my point was, because you refused to read it, and refused to respond to it. I did in fact read up on the subject, and my count was at around 10,000 and that seemed inclusive. But I could be wrong, that's why I kept asking you for your total count. It was after all your source for your argument.

If you recall, I was assuming for the sake of argument that the HRW Report was factual, I was granting you that for purposes of discussion (a fact you took for granted) and I was trying to bring attention to the context of the gassing.

It’s my belief that you have to understand the total circumstance before making a moral pronouncement. But hey, if you think killing 8 or 10,000 people who are at war with your country is the same as killing 6 million innocent Jews, go for it.

I pointed you to citations within the text that EASILY could have been found using your "find text" function in Explorer. I read your defense expert and found him to be highly uncredible. And you still never addressed any of my comments in that thread. You just seemed to tangent on everything. Go read it again.

[shiva2999]

Again, Gendercide gives a detailed history that shows how the Kurds were screwed over repeatedly ... and not just by Saddam:

link: http://www.gendercide.org/case_anfal.html

Gendercide Watch?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! Where did you dig up this little organization?

One guy and a couple of students.

And who is that guy?

Adam Jones Phd, first from Vancouver, then to CIDE in Mexico City, then to ta da! Yale University. Seems to have made a sweet career for himself in the genocide business. The gendercide thing is quite cute.

Oh, and who does he reference when he writes his little histories?

Well, there's Khalid Salih. Who he?

http://www.democratiya.com/authors/bio.asp?id=31

Advisory Editors

Khalid Salih, University of Southern Denmark

Khaled Salih, Senior Lecturer, University of Southern Denmark is author of State-Making, Nation-Building and the Military: Iraq, 1941-1958 and is co-author (with John McGarry and Brendan O'Leary, Lauder Professor of Political Science & Director, Solomon Asch Center for the Study of Ethnopolitical Conflict, University of Pennsylvania) of The Future Of Kurdistan In Iraq. He is a member of Kurdistan’s International Constitutional Advisory Team.


Cool. A guy who's working for Kurdistan. He should know.

But why stop there?

There's Martin Van Bruinessen, another pro...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_van_Bruinessen

Or, "A Barzani woman". Nothing on google about her.

Or how about "veteran Washington Post reporter" (translation? CIA agent) Jonathan C. Randal?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9904E1D8143FF931A15755C0A9619582 60

'A Country That Does Not Exist'
Print Save

By GERALDINE BROOKS
Published: June 22, 1997

AFTER SUCH KNOWLEDGE, WHAT FORGIVENESS?
My Encounters With Kurdistan.
By Jonathan C. Randal.
356 pp. New York:
Farrar, Straus & Giroux. $25.

At the beginning of the Lebanese civil war in 1975, Kurdish mercenaries evicted Jonathan C. Randal of The Washington Post from his Beirut apartment. ''They meant me no particular harm,'' he writes. ''I had simply been in the way during a neighborhood offensive. I lost everything I owned.'' Since then, Kurds have come close to costing Randal a lot more than his possessions. The curiosity piqued by that first encounter has led him into a dozen kinds of danger: boarding leaky rafts for illicit border crossings, dodging crossfire from warring Kurdish factions, fleeing bombardment by Iraq's helicopter gunships. ''After Such Knowledge, What Forgiveness?'' is the product of his 30-year quest to understand one of the Middle East's most enigmatic minorities.

...more...





I can't go on. I'm laughing too hard.

[shiva2999]

People come here because they can make money and and live freely.

LOL!

The US isn't the only country people emigrate to.

I know it's hard to believe.

Don't fall for that bullshit right-wing tactic.

[shiva2999]

I pointed you to citations within the text that EASILY could have been found using your "find text" function in Explorer. I read your defense expert and found him to be highly uncredible. And you still never addressed any of my comments in that thread. You just seemed to tangent on everything. Go read it again.

For gosh sakes, when are you going to actually show us that you're smart instead of telling us?

The endless pronouncements are starting to look mighty transparent Pete.

I never took you for a cotton candy poster.

[TheGoodShepherd]

For gosh sakes, when are you going to actually show us that you're smart instead of telling us?

The endless pronouncements are starting to look mighty transparent Pete.

I never took you for a cotton candy poster.


I did.

[35Pete]

For gosh sakes, when are you going to actually show us that you're smart instead of telling us?

The endless pronouncements are starting to look mighty transparent Pete.

I never took you for a cotton candy poster.

I made very reasonable and highly defensivable comment to JK. Face it. You two sucked big time in that thread. You got killed.

[sukie]

Pete, they will never admit it and I cannot confirm that you infact erradicated their persons of butt cheeks in that thread because of my GOP-ness.

[shiva2999]

I made very reasonable and highly defensivable comment to JK. Face it. You two sucked big time in that thread. You got killed.

Defensivable?

:rofl:

[35Pete]

Defensivable?

:rofl:

HRW is not a credible source when reporting factual evidence? What is? Whatever website or blog that suits your worldview?

Shiva. This is getting goddamned old and you know it.

[shiva2999]

HRW is not a credible source when reporting factual evidence? What is? Whatever website or blog that suits your worldview?

Shiva. This is getting goddamned old and you know it.

Defensivable?

:rofl:

[jimmifli]

Defensivable?

:rofl:
What? It's a very common word ;)

http://www.google.com/search?q=Defensivable&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

[shiva2999]

What? It's a very common word ;)

http://www.google.com/search?q=Defensivable&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Maybe among illiterate engineers.

[shiva2999]

Just for you Pete.

Let George Orwell give you an ass kicking.

You deserve it...

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html

Politics and the English Language
1946
Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it. Our civilization is decadent and our language -- so the argument runs -- must inevitably share in the general collapse. It follows that any struggle against the abuse of language is a sentimental archaism, like preferring candles to electric light or hansom cabs to aeroplanes. Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.
Now, it is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influence of this or that individual writer. But an effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely. A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. If one gets rid of these habits one can think more clearly, and to think clearly is a necessary first step toward political regeneration: so that the fight against bad English is not frivolous and is not the exclusive concern of professional writers. I will come back to this presently, and I hope that by that time the meaning of what I have said here will have become clearer. Meanwhile, here are five specimens of the English language as it is now habitually written.

...more...

[35Pete]

Just for you Pete.

Let George Orwell give you an ass kicking.

You deserve it...

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html

Politics and the English Language
1946
Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it. Our civilization is decadent and our language -- so the argument runs -- must inevitably share in the general collapse. It follows that any struggle against the abuse of language is a sentimental archaism, like preferring candles to electric light or hansom cabs to aeroplanes. Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.
Now, it is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influence of this or that individual writer. But an effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely. A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. If one gets rid of these habits one can think more clearly, and to think clearly is a necessary first step toward political regeneration: so that the fight against bad English is not frivolous and is not the exclusive concern of professional writers. I will come back to this presently, and I hope that by that time the meaning of what I have said here will have become clearer. Meanwhile, here are five specimens of the English language as it is now habitually written.

...more...


Now you are being obtuse. Cut it out please. It is rude.

[shiva2999]

Now you are being obtuse. Cut it out please. It is rude.

Yes, but is it indefensivable?

[35Pete]

Yes, but is it indefensivable?

The behavior is. LOL

[uppy]

Yes, but is it indefensivable?

The attack is old..you need new tactics.


waiting....

[shiva2999]

...waiting....

Get ready. It won't be long.