Cali to follow canadian health care system

[ticatfan3]

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?id=0a1680f6-0c5b-4c9d-bf93-1938c5505eb8&k=6541

[anEinherjer]

Interesting, as lawsuits are filed and many Canadians are rejecting that system.

:rolleyes: Outlawing private health care? What the ****? Oh well, let CA **** up something else and go ever farther into debt. Let the rest of the US see what an unmitigated disaster it becomes. Hopefully that'll kill talk about the Feds jumping on it.

One can only hope.

Outlaw. Ye gods.

[ticatfan3]

Interesting, as lawsuits are filed and many Canadians are rejecting that system.

:rolleyes: Outlawing private health care? What the ****? Oh well, let CA **** up something else and go ever farther into debt. Let the rest of the US see what an unmitigated disaster it becomes. Hopefully that'll kill talk about the Feds jumping on it.

One can only hope.

Outlaw. Ye gods.We are not rejecting our system ,it just needs some TLC and it will be alright.

[anEinherjer]

Really?
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=229fc7d7-875e-4ba1-8cb8-ad64b3c34720&k=39049

Canadian doctors have given their blessing to patients having the option of purchasing private health insurance as a possible solution to the problem of not getting timely medically necessary treatment in the public system.

By more than a two-thirds majority, delegates defeated a resolution urging governments to oppose new parallel health-insurance systems as a solution to the wait-times crisis.

Sounds like the model of a utopian plan to me! :)

I can't imagine a free society making private care illegal. That's just astonishing to me, and you guys can keep it.

[ticatfan3]

Really?
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=229fc7d7-875e-4ba1-8cb8-ad64b3c34720&k=39049





Sounds like the model of a utopian plan to me! :)

I can't imagine a free society making private care illegal. That's just astonishing to me, and you guys can keep it.After years of abuse because of the liberals, yes it has some problems, but steve will fix it. Just last weekend we were trying to bring up my cousins seebee plane up on my beach and got stuck, to make this short my other cousin cut her finger to the bone on the wing tip and we took her to the hospital and they brought in a surgeon to put the 25 stitches in her little finger and she was back at my place in 2 hours. This is about 6:30 on a thursday night. It does work at times. And it did not cost a cent.And they are talking about both up here ,if you got the cash use the private one and the rest of us can do the ohip thing.

[anEinherjer]

Question: Don't you pay taxes? (regarding your "did not cost a cent" comment)

[г]

Canada.com (asper)

[ticatfan3]

Question: Don't you pay taxes? (regarding your "did not cost a cent" comment)Yes ,but I am poor,so I don't pay that much.Plus I get a gst rebate check for 86 bucks every 3 months.

[35Pete]

Yes ,but I am poor,so I don't pay that much.Plus I get a gst rebate check for 86 bucks every 3 months.

So in other words you are a freeloader? Why not get a second job? Someone's giving up taxdollars for your free ride. Sure ain't nothing to brag about.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

Interesting, as lawsuits are filed and many Canadians are rejecting that system.

:rolleyes: Outlawing private health care? What the ****? Oh well, let CA **** up something else and go ever farther into debt. Let the rest of the US see what an unmitigated disaster it becomes. Hopefully that'll kill talk about the Feds jumping on it.

One can only hope.

Outlaw. Ye gods.

So how do you propose to help po folk get the same healthcare as the wealthy?

I mean, you can't actually be in favor of someone receiving better medical care because they happen to have money, can you?

That's scary man.

[K-Gun]

So in other words you are a freeloader? Why not get a second job? Someone's giving up taxdollars for your free ride. Sure ain't nothing to brag about.

Yeah Ticat, you ****ing *******, you should be a man and work 80 hours a week to pay for your own health care even though its your basic right to life.

Just kidding (not about it being your basic right to life though)...

Hey Petie, I haven't paid a cent in income taxes in almost five years, how’s that make you feel considering I get free money from the government to go to school?

See, when I get a job in my field, and pay my taxes, I want them to go for education and health care more than any other thing. Screw speding 10 trillion dollars on the military industrial complex over teh next 10 years, FREE EDUCATION AND HEALTH CARE FOR ALL!

This is NOT socialist, it is a basic human right. I'm all for capitalism...

[sukie]

Basic right my ass

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

Is there a name for the particular complex involving a person with health insurance angry at the prospect of all people's right to the same?

It certainly involves some animosity and insecurity. How pathetic do you have to be to feel special because your employer is giving you a handout?

[sukie]

WTF is that? So the tax payers should take care and coddle everyone at your health's expense?

[anEinherjer]

How pathetic do you have to be to expect your employer to pay for your health care? Just wondering (challenging that basic bit of Americana...).

I mean, you can't actually be in favor of someone receiving better medical care because they happen to have money, can you?

Man, they already do, all over the world. Ever hear of Canadians heading south to get elective care from us? It happens all the time. Brits fly to India to get surgery done cheap.

When everyone is forced to get the same (anything), that (anything) can be nothing but mediocre.

[anEinherjer]

Listen, noone is out there seriously suggesting we just cut out all health programs and screw the poor. Noone is. Any suggestion of that sort is pure FUD.

But there are far better ways to go about providing health care than to FORCE everyone (at gunpoint, don't forget that little tidbit) to do things one way.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

WTF is that? So the tax payers should take care and coddle everyone at your health's expense?

I can't think of a more appropriate manner in which to spend tax dollars.

If there is an alternative to government intervention that produces some kind of healthcare for the uninsured, I'm all ears. I'm not suggesting an operation to remove a wart or even to correct a deviated septum should be free, but a person shouldn't have to fly to India just so they can afford to have a life threatining artery blockage fixed.

That makes me sick.

[35Pete]

Yeah Ticat, you ****ing *******, you should be a man and work 80 hours a week to pay for your own health care even though its your basic right to life.

Just kidding (not about it being your basic right to life though)...

Hey Petie, I haven't paid a cent in income taxes in almost five years, how’s that make you feel considering I get free money from the government to go to school?

See, when I get a job in my field, and pay my taxes, I want them to go for education and health care more than any other thing. Screw speding 10 trillion dollars on the military industrial complex over teh next 10 years, FREE EDUCATION AND HEALTH CARE FOR ALL!

This is NOT socialist, it is a basic human right. I'm all for capitalism...

Healthcare is not a basic right. It is a service provided by someone else. You do not have a right to compel others to provide you a service, whether direct or indirect as in through a taxpayer.

See JK. You look at this "great society" crap and you think that with your attitude you are doing "society" a great favor. That's the collectivist attitude in you. Individual rights don't seem to matter when it comes to redistributing other's means so that you and others can get your free ride. I think it's shameful.

Did you ever stop to think that your "freebees" are, by force, taking money out of someone's pocket that they normally would be setting aside for say, their daughter's college fund? Their retirement? That boat they have always wanted since they were 10? Their first home? A vacation for the family? Don't tell me that these are not "essentials" as you have no right to decide that. Anymore than you have a right to redistribute some'one else's earnings.

And yes, it is socialist. And it is wrong.

[pmoon6]

A couple of questions here.

How would socialized medicine affect healthcare givers, like doctors and nurses? Would their salaries be regulated. Would top notch surgeons be paid the same as their mediocre counterparts? That's one problem I can see.

Also there are ever advancing techniques in the field. Would the government decide what techniques are necessary and financially viable and what ones are not?

For example, a German doctor developed a technique where they use a hydraulic disk in degenerative conditions, improving the patient's mobility and hopefully alleviating the pain associated with it. It has been approved in this country, but at only one vertabral level. The procedure is very expensive and certainly not covered by many insurance companies.

Another question is medical malpractice. Doctors are already taking down their shingle because of the exorbidant costs. Would socialized healthcare limit or prevent the awards a patient could get? After all, you would be sueing the government, which is not an easy task.

Just some things to think about.

[pmoon6]

Is there a name for the particular complex involving a person with health insurance angry at the prospect of all people's right to the same?

It certainly involves some animosity and insecurity. How pathetic do you have to be to feel special because your employer is giving you a handout?The employer is not giving you a handout. An insurance package is part of the benefits of employment. They have more clout with the insurance companies because of the number of people in the plan and they pay a percentage to take care of their employees.

What bothers me is people thinking that they have a "right" to healthcare. It is a service that has to be paid for, one way or the other. Do you have a right to have an automobile? Sure. Should taxpayers pay for that right because you can't afford it? Hardly.

[nehemiah]

pos rep for moonie.

pos rep for sweetlee.

neg rep for sukie.

neg rep for anEin.

[г]

It's hilarious watching this thread...the ignorance is staggering.

[ticatfan3]

Yeah Ticat, you ****ing *******, you should be a man and work 80 hours a week to pay for your own health care even though its your basic right to life.

Just kidding (not about it being your basic right to life though)...

Hey Petie, I haven't paid a cent in income taxes in almost five years, how’s that make you feel considering I get free money from the government to go to school?

See, when I get a job in my field, and pay my taxes, I want them to go for education and health care more than any other thing. Screw speding 10 trillion dollars on the military industrial complex over teh next 10 years, FREE EDUCATION AND HEALTH CARE FOR ALL!

This is NOT socialist, it is a basic human right. I'm all for capitalism...
I probably work more hours then most people here. I probably have bigger ulsers then most here. I take very ,very few days off. This summer was the fisrt time I took a whole week off in the summer and last nov was the 1st time I took a whole week off for the hunt.(30 YEARS) Matter of fact I just cancelled 2 days I was taking to go trout fishing next weekend because I am to busy. I work hard , make little, but I enjoy life and I have no toys. Now because of that ,I get a gst rebate check,something that was started by mulroney back in the 80's. But I have never understood why no goverment has even thought of getting rid of it, I wonder how much money the gov does send out in those checks, I would give up mine if they would put it to good use.

[K-Gun]

I probably work more hours then most people here. I probably have bigger ulsers then most here. I take very ,very few days off. This summer was the fisrt time I took a whole week off in the summer and last nov was the 1st time I took a whole week off for the hunt.(30 YEARS) Matter of fact I just cancelled 2 days I was taking to go trout fishing next weekend because I am to busy. I work hard , make little, but I enjoy life and I have no toys. Now because of that ,I get a gst rebate check,something that was started by mulroney back in the 80's. But I have never understood why no goverment has even thought of getting rid of it, I wonder how much money the gov does send out in those checks, I would give up mine if they would put it to good use.

You don’t have to defend yourself to me brother. Pete thinks that because he’s an expert at first order predicate calculus that every one has the ability to make six figures.

[sukie]

You don't need 6 figures to end neediness.

[K-Gun]

Healthcare is not a basic right. It is a service provided by someone else. You do not have a right to compel others to provide you a service, whether direct or indirect as in through a taxpayer.



The right to life includes preventing one’s death. There are many services that tax payers foot the bill for because of the right to life. Included is the enormous cost we pay every year for national defense.

Let’s say someone has a tumor, it turns out to be cancer. They have no health insurance—the operation will cost $150,000. They can’t pay, therefore they will die. If a person can be cured of a condition they do indeed have to right to life. Preventative health care is the best way to insure a person does not develop deadly medical conditions, which by the way will also drastically lower the cost of health care.

Prove to me you support people’s right to life.

[K-Gun]

You don't need 6 figures to end neediness.

You do when your medical costs are 6 figures every year, and you have no medical insurance.

[sukie]

Since no system is all things to all people... Let's keep the discussion in the realm of popular reality.

[K-Gun]

Since no system is all things to all people... Let's keep the discussion in the realm of popular reality.

I had a rough last couple of years health wise. My total bill is somewhere near $40,000. Thank God for mandated health insurance through school!

Thank you, NY State, for your contribution to my health.

[sukie]

Isolated case. Good for you BTW.

[K-Gun]

Isolated case. Good for you BTW.

46 million Americans have NO health insurance. I'm sure very few of them need expensive medical treatment.

No, wait, the lack of health insurance is a leading cause of bankruptcy. How’s that for tax payer burden?

Fact is, you don’t support the right to life.

[sukie]

How is bankruptcy a tax burden? How many uninsuredmotorists are there? Should we socialize car insurance? How many people do not have homeowner's insurance?

[K-Gun]

How is bankruptcy a tax burden? How many uninsuredmotorists are there? Should we socialize car insurance? How many people do not have homeowner's insurance?

1. When persons file bankrupcy, the govenment becomes the creditor for all taxes owed.

2. Car insurance, and home owners insurance have nothing to do with the right to life.

You do not support a basic right to life. Defend yourself.

[sukie]

Basic right to basic life... not continued life at all costs. You have the basic right to amass cash as well... that will extend your life if you wish. You are not entitled to basic health. Even the sick have their basic life intact.

[K-Gun]

Basic right to basic life... not continued life at all costs. You have the basic right to amass cash as well... that will extend your life if you wish. You are not entitled to basic health. Even the sick have their basic life intact.

As if illness doesn't cause death. Please, you support the right to tax people to defend the country from military assault, but not the right to defend the country from biological assault.

[sukie]

No I just pay my taxes. Since you are using the term "basiclife" I assumeit is fromLife, Liberty, Blah Blah... Was there provisions in the earliest form of our government for free bloodletting? Nope.

[K-Gun]

No I just pay my taxes. Since you are using the term "basiclife" I assumeit is fromLife, Liberty, Blah Blah... Was there provisions in the earliest form of our government for free bloodletting? Nope.

A good question is, how did payment for health care work in the early years of the Republic? I bet you don't know the answer to that, and neither do I.

I'll get back to you.

[sukie]

I'm guessing seeing the "blood letter" or "Barber" was pretty inexpensive. A couple of chickens and some coin I suppose...

[35Pete]

The right to life includes preventing one’s death. There are many services that tax payers foot the bill for because of the right to life. Included is the enormous cost we pay every year for national defense.

Let’s say someone has a tumor, it turns out to be cancer. They have no health insurance—the operation will cost $150,000. They can’t pay, therefore they will die. If a person can be cured of a condition they do indeed have to right to life. Preventative health care is the best way to insure a person does not develop deadly medical conditions, which by the way will also drastically lower the cost of health care.

Prove to me you support people’s right to life.

Goddamn that is a stretch. A right is something that you possess. It is not something that someone must provide for you. Preventing one's death is a right. But it is also the RESPONSIBILITY of the person afflicted. And if that person has any sense of self-preservation then they will take this into their life equation and act on it. I do. So should they. That simple.

No right exists where another or other's, by use of coercision or force must provide it for you. People that agree with this tend to self-preserve.

[K-Gun]

No right exists where another or other's, by use of coercision or force must provide it for you. People that agree with this tend to self-preserve.

Well that's solved, any tax money going to the Unites States military is Un-Constitutional (by your definition.)

[35Pete]

Well that's solved, any tax money going to the Unites States military is Un-Constitutional (by your definition.)
Nice try. Military is enumerated in the constitution. Welfare and social programs are not.

I am just following my human obligation to get all people off of the government nipple. Funny. I worked 2 jobs through college. Yet others think that they have a right to my tax money on the falacious argument that they are going to "pass it on". Why not be self-sufficient in the first place?

That's the point JK. Why not be self-sufficient? That is a human requirement. And if one refuses to be then the penalty is a life of misery. I can accept that. It is a fair tradeoff. And a reasonable one.

[coastal]

Is there a name for the particular complex involving a person with health insurance angry at the prospect of all people's right to the same?

Yeah.

They're called ass holes.

[35Pete]

Yeah.

They're called ass holes.

Yeah. So are the punks that want to compel others in servitude to impose this so called "right". Ass hole is an understatement. What I have in mind violates TOS.

[coastal]

Also there are ever advancing techniques in the field. Would the government decide what techniques are necessary and financially viable and what ones are not?They already do that moonie. Below is a link to a modality called Anodyne Therapy. All it is a near-infrared wave length treatment that is provided to people with with circulatory problems... like peripheral neuropathy.

Peripheral neuropathy can be debilitating. In addition to night pain that often requires sleep medication, anti-depressants, pain medications and expensive neuro drugs like neurontin, this condition and the diseases it is caused by render the patient with poor balance, decreased functional capacity and skin integrity problems.

It works. I am leading a multidciplinary refereed study of the use of this modality on a group of our patients. Its one three scientific studies I am supervising in case the resident jack off artist is keeping score.

Long story short... the government is trying to shut the use of this modality down.

Why? I have my suspisions it is because people are actually getting off all of those medications, but some "scientists" within the government will say because it hasn't stood up to a full scientifc examination.

http://www.anodynetherapy.com/HCPindex.htm

"Medicare Non-Coverage Draft Proposal for Infrared Therapy Devices (CAG-00291N)


Dear Anodyne Therapy Customer:



We sincerely appreciate your commenting on the Infrared Therapy National Coverage Decision (NCD). Over 4800 clinicians and patients commented during the 30 day comment period and 17 professional organizations urged Medicare to cover infrared therapy device treatment.


WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? CMS will evaluate the public comments it received over the next 60 days and will issue a final decision memorandum. In the meantime, we will continue to accept assignment on Anodyne Therapy Home Systems."

...more....

[K-Gun]

Nice try. Military is enumerated in the constitution. Welfare and social programs are not.

I am just following my human obligation to get all people off of the government nipple. Funny. I worked 2 jobs through college. Yet others think that they have a right to my tax money on the falacious argument that they are going to "pass it on". Why not be self-sufficient in the first place?

That's the point JK. Why not be self-sufficient? That is a human requirement. And if one refuses to be then the penalty is a life of misery. I can accept that. It is a fair tradeoff. And a reasonable one.

You think I'm miserable because I don't work two jobs right now? You have a funny notion of misery.

I used to work 20 hour days, 7 days a week for months at a time (10 on, 4 off, 10 on, 4 off, ect.) I do know what hard work is, but I'd rather study now, my future career will only benefit.

Nevertheless, you don't support the right to life. You would deny someone life saving surgery if they couldn't afford it.

[coastal]

So are the punks that want to compel others in servitude to impose this so called "right". Would you care to translate this?


What I have in mind violates TOS.
I can feel your anger.

It gives you focus!

It makes you powerful!

[coastal]

deny someone life saving surgery if they couldn't afford it.
**** em!

I'm sure as their laying there dying they'll know all about the consequence of choice.

Some lessons are hard to learn.

[anEinherjer]

It's hilarious watching this thread...the ignorance is staggering.

You would ****in' know.


Nehe, bite me for the neg rep. And go ahead and force me at gunpoint to do your bidding.

[nehemiah]

You would ****in' know.


Nehe, bite me for the neg rep. And go ahead and force me at gunpoint to do your bidding.neg rep for bad attitude.




"at gunpoint"? :rofl:

[anEinherjer]

You would deny someone life saving surgery if they couldn't afford it.

Garbage like this is such poppycock and makes the entire discussion not worth having.

[anEinherjer]

Nehemiah, you seem to understand gov't, but if you don't understand that point, the rest of it is pretty much pointless.

[K-Gun]

Garbage like this is such poppycock and makes the entire discussion not worth having.

How so, my point is that preventative health care costs cost by reducing situations lif threatening in nature.

[35Pete]

How so, my point is that preventative health care costs cost by reducing situations lif threatening in nature.

Look. Costs are not the factor here. Two things at play. 1.) Don't enslave me to provide your "right". Taken to logical extremes, and I say extreme, people get killed in civil wars for attempting to enslave others. That is how strong the human spirit is in its yearning for freedom. And his is full of examples. 2.) I reserve the right to to choose what healthcare is best for me, not you, not the government. And I want the best. So I pay for the premium plan. That is my market choice and an expression of my freedom.

[K-Gun]

Look. Costs are not the factor here. Two things at play. 1.) Don't enslave me to provide your "right". Taken to logical extremes, and I say extreme, people get killed in civil wars for attempting to enslave others. That is how strong the human spirit is in its yearning for freedom. And his is full of examples. 2.) I reserve the right to to choose what healthcare is best for me, not you, not the government. And I want the best. So I pay for the premium plan. That is my market choice and an expression of my freedom.

you're crazy as a loon. I'm not telling you you can't go pay more money to see a differnt doctor. i'm saying teh 46 million Americans with no health insurance have the right, yes the right, to health care.

Congress has the RIGHT to tax, YOU, to provide for the general WELFARE, in order to promote LIFE, liberty and happiness.

Notice Life is prior to liberty. I got TRUMP biznitch.

[35Pete]

you're crazy as a loon. I'm not telling you you can't go pay more money to see a differnt doctor. i'm saying teh 46 million Americans with no health insurance have the right, yes the right, to health care.

Congress has the RIGHT to tax, YOU, to provide for the general WELFARE, in order to promote LIFE, liberty and happiness.

Notice Life is prior to liberty. I got TRUMP biznitch.

No. The promote the general welfare concept NEVER in the federalist papers talks about collectivism. You should read them sometimes. That's the problem with you liberals. Ignorance of the constitution. Even worse than the far right sometimes.

People have a right to better themselves. To preserve themselves. And if they choose not to then they also have the obligation to accept the consequences. And those consequences are pretty severe indeed. Instead of bitching for me to support them they should use that energy to enhance themselves.

Healthcare is a service. It is not a right. People have an obligation to be healthy. And as such they should seek services affordable that can meet that end. Might mean no cable TV. So?

Two issues. 1.) The Medicare program causes cost shifting to the private healthcare CONSUMER, thus driving up prices. I saw it firsthand with 7 years ER/Trauma center experience. 2.) The consumer is shielded from costs by several mechanisms thus relieving pressure on the medical industry to control costs. Do you really need to go to the doctor for a cold? Why don't insurance plans pay for smoking cessation programs?

Fact is that out of pocket and co-pays need to go up, not down, to discourage frivilous use of the services. And they have. As mine have. But even so if the diagnosis is significant my insuranve waives a good part of it. I have NO co-pays for my surgeon. None at all.

Let the market forces act on healthcare. That will bring prices way down and make it affordable for a lot of people. The rest we have to set up a charitable system for. And for the really really lazy (and I saw a lot of them in the ER) that will not lift a finger for themselves, well, they dug their grave, now jump in.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

The employer is not giving you a handout. An insurance package is part of the benefits of employment. They have more clout with the insurance companies because of the number of people in the plan and they pay a percentage to take care of their employees.

What bothers me is people thinking that they have a "right" to healthcare. It is a service that has to be paid for, one way or the other. Do you have a right to have an automobile? Sure. Should taxpayers pay for that right because you can't afford it? Hardly.

I dont get it. Transporation and saving my life the same? Get a clue.

[K-Gun]

No. The promote the general welfare concept NEVER in the federalist papers talks about collectivism. You should read them sometimes. That's the problem with you liberals. Ignorance of the constitution. Even worse than the far right sometimes.

People have a right to better themselves. To preserve themselves. And if they choose not to then they also have the obligation to accept the consequences. And those consequences are pretty severe indeed. Instead of bitching for me to support them they should use that energy to enhance themselves.

Healthcare is a service. It is not a right. People have an obligation to be healthy. And as such they should seek services affordable that can meet that end. Might mean no cable TV. So?

Two issues. 1.) The Medicare program causes cost shifting to the private healthcare CONSUMER, thus driving up prices. I saw it firsthand with 7 years ER/Trauma center experience. 2.) The consumer is shielded from costs by several mechanisms thus relieving pressure on the medical industry to control costs. Do you really need to go to the doctor for a cold? Why don't insurance plans pay for smoking cessation programs?

Fact is that out of pocket and co-pays need to go up, not down, to discourage frivilous use of the services. And they have. As mine have. But even so if the diagnosis is significant my insuranve waives a good part of it. I have NO co-pays for my surgeon. None at all.

Let the market forces act on healthcare. That will bring prices way down and make it affordable for a lot of people. The rest we have to set up a charitable system for. And for the really really lazy (and I saw a lot of them in the ER) that will not lift a finger for themselves, well, they dug their grave, now jump in.

Rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric... We find in Federalist 41 two intersting things, first Madison writing against a standing army, AND and explanation the the term "general welfare" comes from the Articles of Confederation, ten years before the first Federalist Paper was written.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed41.htm

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

46 million Americans have NO health insurance. I'm sure very few of them need expensive medical treatment.

No, wait, the lack of health insurance is a leading cause of bankruptcy. How’s that for tax payer burden?

Fact is, you don’t support the right to life.

National defense only protects rich people, duh.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

This thread pretty much explains who is who.

Either you want to save lives or you don't.

[35Pete]

Rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric... We find in Federalist 41 two intersting things, first Madison writing against a standing army, AND and explanation the the term "general welfare" comes from the Articles of Confederation, ten years before the first Federalist Paper was written.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed41.htm

Madison was against a standing army. And believe it or not so am I. What is the point of a standing army when there is no threat? But there is a threat. Historically we have always followed that doctrine. After WWI we did. But after WWII the threat level never went down. Never. So we are in a 64 year period of hostilities. One thing after another in the world. Cold war, now terrorism and the ME mess. I was actually looking forward to scaling back the military after the cold war. It's size actually has but its cost has not (new technologies and force multipliers are expensive). When the day comes and the threat level reduces then I'll advocate downsizing again. But that time is not near.

[pmoon6]

I dont get it. Transporation and saving my life the same? Get a clue.It's the same principle. Healthcare has to be paid for just like a car note. Who is going to pay is the question. Is it going to be you or if we adopt a socialized system, the taxpayer.

I'm not catagorically against a social system, it depends on the plan. I just don't think it's a right.

As far as getting a clue....blow me Junior. I have pubic hairs older than you.

[coastal]

1.) Don't enslave me to provide your "right". Taken to logical extremes, and I say extreme, people get killed in civil wars for attempting to enslave others. That is how strong the human spirit is in its yearning for freedom. And his is full of examples.
Did you just compare our govenment trying to implement universal healthcare to shippin' Sambo over from Africa in chains to pick cotton?

Logical extremes?

ROTFLMAO!!!!

[pmoon6]

The uninsured and underinsured problem certainly has to be addressed. JKIG brought up preventative care. That would be the best argument for everyone having coverage IMHO, the costs would be greatly reduced as opposed to using the ER as a clinic when someone gets sick. I'll use the automobile analogy because SweetPea liked it so much, Pay for proper maintainence or pay a big repair bill when it breaks down.

The question is, would most people take advantage of preventative care or would they just do what they do now and go to the doctor when they have to? Would they make the lifestyle changes necessary to improve their health or just live the way they want and face the consequences later on?

[35Pete]

Did you just compare our govenment trying to implement universal healthcare to shippin' Sambo over from Africa in chains to pick cotton?

Logical extremes?

ROTFLMAO!!!!


Your inference is stupid. I'm saying that I work for me. Not the government and not others. Involuntary servitude is a form of slavery.

[coastal]

No Pete.

Your comparison is insulting and thoughtless.

Slavery of a human being by forceful, inhumane means is not even in the same ball park as a discussion about how to best provide healthcare for the masses.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[35Pete]

No Pete.

Your comparison is insulting and thoughtless.

Slavery of a human being by forceful, inhumane means is not even in the same ball park as a discussion about how to best provide healthcare for the masses.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

No you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Advocating the taking from one and giving to another. That is downright embarrassing and shameful. Enslavement does not necessarily mean picking cotton in the fields at the point of a whip. It could mean me working against my will to provide goods and services for others that do not deserve them.

You people are downright dangerous to liberty and need to be outright crushed in the political realm. Defeated, and discredited.

[pmoon6]

The thing is Pete, you are already paying for it through ever rising insurance costs, government subsidies of failing hospitals, etc.

[coastal]

No you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Advocating the taking from one and giving to another. That is downright embarrassing and shameful. Enslavement does not necessarily mean picking cotton in the fields at the point of a whip. It could mean me working against my will to provide goods and services for others that do not deserve them.

You people are downright dangerous to liberty and need to be outright crushed in the political realm. Defeated, and discredited.

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/funny/bullshit.jpg

[anEinherjer]

It's surprising how far people have gotten off the track here. The thread is about CA going the way of Canada and making private insurance ILLEGAL.

How can Americans support something like that?

[г]

I love how the 'tards use melodramatic language like 'enslave,' further confirming their secret wishes to be female.

[coastal]

How can Americans support something like that?

Most don't! And those birkenstock wearing, wine drinking hippies in California aren't Americans anyways.

http://digitalretrograde.com/Photos/red_stater.jpg

[nehemiah]

spanking the maid.

o yeah.

[35Pete]

anEin. That's why these people need to be destroyed politically. The sad thing is that they have no shame at all. None. Gimme gimme gimme.

[K-Gun]

No you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Advocating the taking from one and giving to another. That is downright embarrassing and shameful. Enslavement does not necessarily mean picking cotton in the fields at the point of a whip. It could mean me working against my will to provide goods and services for others that do not deserve them.

You people are downright dangerous to liberty and need to be outright crushed in the political realm. Defeated, and discredited.

You're an idiot. There, I said it.

You have NO RIGHT to complain about being taxed. You have the right to vote for representatives who will put tax money towards this or take away from that, but YOU are not AFFLICTED by taxation NO MATTER WHAT your money goes to, because Congress has the RIGHT to TAX YOU.

You do not work against your will becuase your tax money goes to something you do not like. That is an ignoratn statement. You are not a slave, unless you admitt to being a wage slave all together, independent of taxation. Jesus, man, stop being so melodramatic.

"I'm a slave" because I don;t like being taxed, WAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Cry it off.

[K-Gun]

anEin. That's why these people need to be destroyed politically. The sad thing is that they have no shame at all. None. Gimme gimme gimme.

YOU STILL REFUSED TO ANSWER MY QUESTION: DO WE THROW CHILDREN OF SINGLE MOTHERS, THE MENTALLY ILL, AND OTHERS WHO NEED TEMPRARY ASSISTENCE TO THE STREET?

[35Pete]

YOU STILL REFUSED TO ANSWER MY QUESTION: DO WE THROW CHILDREN OF SINGLE MOTHERS, THE MENTALLY ILL, AND OTHERS WHO NEED TEMPRARY ASSISTENCE TO THE STREET?

No. You let charities handle that problem. And then you can give your tax cut to those charities.Build up the charity network and let them handle it. 1. It is voluntary, and 2. They won't screw it up like government.

[35Pete]

And you are a shameless freeloader JK.
I'd rather be accused of being an idiot than a freeloader. Stop using the poor as a front for seeking your life security through the taxpayer. I see right through it. Not my fault philosophy doesn't pay well. That's your choice, not mine. I'm not rich. I never bitch and demand that the wealthy give me things because it is my "right".

[Green Lantern]

And you are a shameless freeloader JK.
I'd rather be accused of being an idiot than a freeloader. Stop using the poor as a front for seeking your life security through the taxpayer. I see right through it. Not my fault philosophy doesn't pay well. That's your choice, not mine. I'm not rich. I never bitch and demand that the wealthy give me things because it is my "right".

I'm the free-rider. I love that principle in game theory.

[35Pete]

It absolutely frosts my ass that ANYONE has the balls to try to take away my right to maximize my health by limiting my healthcare options that I PROVIDE FOR MYSELF so that they too can have healthcare. I get so mad I get homicidal thoughts.

Talk about a totalitarianism. Bush doesn't even hold a candle to this stuff. I'd take 20 years of Georgie boy before I'd live one year in a system like that under a statist president.

And it is the lack of shame that galls me. Truly galls me.

[35Pete]

If you want to assist those temporarily out of the loop then you stop wasting your energy on a big government solution. You channel the millions of beatniks into changing the social structure so that charity becomes a primary goal in life. Then you let the pros handle the situation. Private charities that are dynamic, innovative and efficient. That is how to handle the problem. And no one's freedom is compromised.

[coastal]

And you are a shameless freeloader JK.

I get over on you every day Pete.

I have become such a proficient user of Medicare tax dollars that it now supports my life and kids to the tune of 6 figures every year.

Not just that, but know that you are paying for coastal to order 1800 margaritas for a bar full of big breasted marketers, and dorkey ass doctors chasing their own cocks.

And all of it is done with your Medicare dollars Pete.


Remember that next time you look at your pay stub, and think of coastal being coastal.

Cheers Mr. Indpendent! I'm so glad I finally feel!

:bigasskiss:

[K-Gun]

And you are a shameless freeloader JK.
I'd rather be accused of being an idiot than a freeloader. Stop using the poor as a front for seeking your life security through the taxpayer. I see right through it. Not my fault philosophy doesn't pay well. That's your choice, not mine. I'm not rich. I never bitch and demand that the wealthy give me things because it is my "right".

So now you're anti- Pell Grants? So much for "teach a man to fish," LIAR.

[35Pete]

So now you're anti- Pell Grants? So much for "teach a man to fish," LIAR.

Never said that. Two things. 1.) I am pro student loan. The student deals with a bank, not the government. and two, teach a man to fish does not ncessarily mean federal programs.

[notacon]

Haven’t had the time to read all the posts in this thread.

But, let me say this about the health care situation in the US.

The present system is terrible. The health insurance companies spend almost 25% of our premiums in administrative costs…basically they spend a good portion their gross to look for ways to deny us service.

Insurance companies are despicable and have little concern for their customers.

Medicare has administrative costs closer to 3%.

Competition means little in health care. ALL the insurance companies are the same. Nobody checks costs on the services they use. The whole situation is abysmal!

I trust insurance companies a lot less than I trust government (which is not that much).

There has GOT to be a better way, and a single payer system administered by government is probably the best...basically put everyone on a Medicare type system. If every health insurance company went out of business it would help the entire system.

THEY SUCK!

[jimmifli]

I'm the free-rider. I love that principle in game theory.
Ever read "Prisoner's Dilema"?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038541580X?v=glance

Fun read if you're into game theory.

[sukie]

Notacon... very interesting post but at the individual healthcare level... utter BS.

I have insurance... I get healthcare and I never deal with the insurance company.

DO NOT confuse insurance with the level of health care in this country.

My wife is going through an issue, healthwise, that is being diagnostically handled step by step. Did we speak to the insurance company first? No.

What situation is so terrible? The administrative costs? That may bebut if you are sick... better hope to God you are in THIS country.

[K-Gun]

Ever read "Prisoner's Dilema"?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/038541580X?v=glance

Fun read if you're into game theory.

This Canadian dude from Toronto derives a whole moral/political system from the prisoner's dilema.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gauthier

[notacon]

Notacon... very interesting post but at the individual healthcare level... utter BS.

I have insurance... I get healthcare and I never deal with the insurance company.

DO NOT confuse insurance with the level of health care in this country.

My wife is going through an issue, healthwise, that is being diagnostically handled step by step. Did we speak to the insurance company first? No.

What situation is so terrible? The administrative costs? That may bebut if you are sick... better hope to God you are in THIS country.

Not being able to see the doctor I want unless he/she is on the approved list from my insurance company.

Not getting the care my doctor wants without the insurance company approving first.

Not being sure I can get proper care while away from home unless the insurance company approves first.

Don’t know what planet you are living on…here in the real world health insurance companies decide every step of the way what kind of care I can receive and who can administer that care.

[notacon]

And BTW…administrative costs matter very much indeed. They are adding literally hundreds of BILLION$ of dollars to every health care product. Especially since doctors and hospitals have huge outlays to produce the paper work (and fight to get the care that the DOCTOR decides from the insurance companies).

Every year my health insurance rates go up while the coverage goes down.

[uppy]

I get free health care,its not the best system in the world but its free.

life is good

[sukie]

Not being able to see the doctor I want unless he/she is on the approved list from my insurance company.

Almost every doctor is partof every plan... unless you're looking for sheep serum injections

Not getting the care my doctor wants without the insurance company approving first.

Give me a personal example. Otherwise... talking points.

Not being sure I can get proper care while away from home unless the insurance company approves first.

Again... Most allow for out of network care... Infact almost all do. Deductable is higher. Care is the same.

Don’t know what planet you are living on…here in the real world health insurance companies decide every step of the way what kind of care I can receive and who can administer that care.

EARTH... Western hemisphere. Florida to be more specific... Where do you live where YOUR healthcare blows so miserably. I'd move.

[35Pete]

Sukie. I have 7 year's experience in the health care setting. You have what? 20?

When I hear these people "guess" at what is going on it makes me laugh at such ignorance. You can tell that they are just guessing. Or reading blog material.

[sukie]

I know...Parrot sounds are unbelievable. They act like everyone has the insurance provider on speed dial if they feel ill.

[K-Gun]

Sukie. I have 7 year's experience in the health care setting. You have what? 20?

When I hear these people "guess" at what is going on it makes me laugh at such ignorance. You can tell that they are just guessing. Or reading blog material.

LOL! I know it, you were a medical biller, not a paramedic! Thus, your vast knowledge of the economics at work.

[uppy]

Would health insurance and health care be better if we did not have 20 millon
illegal aliens running to the emergency room every time thay had a tummy ache ?

[35Pete]

LOL! I know it, you were a medical biller, not a paramedic! Thus, your vast knowledge of the economics at work.

Bro. Working in an ER you become drinking buddies with BPD, the social workers, medical billing, nurses, interns, ect....You are immersed in the environment and learn about everything in one way or another.

And I also saw what happens when Medicaid/Medicare create unlimited demand with limited resources. I saw that firsthand.

[35Pete]

Would health insurance and health care be better if we did not have 20 millon
illegal aliens running to the emergency room every time thay had a tummy ache ?

I worked a few ERs. In each one the staff would make the non-emergency free ride crowd wait hours, even if there was a bed open.

Reason: These people can threaten the viability of an ER in a condition Red situation, or even Yellow. Try to discourage them. Make it more enticing to use the clinic instead.

[notacon]

I have several family members in the health care industry…nurses…doctors…therapists.

The biggest enemy in the health care industry is the health insurance companies. They do not care one whit about the health of their customers.

[35Pete]

I have several family members in the health care industry…nurses…doctors…therapists.

The biggest enemy in the health care industry is the health insurance companies. They do not care one whit about the health of their customers.

The bigger enemy is the lack of market forces acting on pricing, combined with Medicaid/Medicare cost shifting.

[notacon]

BTW…the Medicare creating unlimited demand with limited resources is bullshit.

It is the ridiculous notion that we have to do everything in our power to prolong life…no matter what the quality of that “life” is. ..no matter what the cost of prolonging the brain patterns are.

Death is a part of life. Everyone dies.

[35Pete]

BTW…the Medicare creating unlimited demand with limited resources is bullshit.

It is the ridiculous notion that we have to do everything in our power to prolong life…no matter what the quality of that “life” is. ..no matter what the cost of prolonging the brain patterns are.

Death is a part of life. Everyone dies.

Uhh. Sorry if I am pulling rank via experience on you but you are talking horse shit.

15,000+ hours first hand experience tells me otherwise.

[notacon]

Market forces smarket forces…what a bunch of malarkey.

Once you accept that life at all costs is acceptable there are no market forces.

Unless you mean that only those that can afford $4,000 emergency room visits don’t deserve the care.

I know…’survival of the fittest!!! If they can’t take care of their own broken neck then they deserve to die!’

[35Pete]

You don't know WTF you are talking about. I do.

[notacon]

Uhh. Sorry if I am pulling rank via experience on you but you are talking horse shit.

15,000+ hours first hand experience tells me otherwise.

Please…expert of global warming…expert on healthcare…give it a break!

I am taking a philosophical position…an opinion.

Do you deny that the majority of health care costs are spent prolonging the life of the chronically ill or those close to death?

[notacon]

My wife has over 60,000 hours of experience...so what!

[35Pete]

Please…expert of global warming…expert on healthcare…give it a break!

I am taking a philosophical position…an opinion.

Do you deny that the majority of health care costs are spent prolonging the life of the chronically ill or those close to death?

Ohh absolutely. 70% of the ER patients that I saw were over 70. No doubt about that. Advances in technology cause that.

[notacon]

Btw…my sister-in-law has over 80,000 hours of experience…my brother-in-law has over 90,000 hours of experience…a friend has over 60,000 hours…another friend has over 40,000 hours experience…my niece has only 20,000…again…so what!

[shiva2999]

I have 30 years experience in the movie, television and advertising business so when it comes to culture and propaganda everyone else can just STFU.

[uppy]

Lmao

[35Pete]

Btw…my sister-in-law has over 80,000 hours of experience…my brother-in-law has over 90,000 hours of experience…a friend has over 60,000 hours…another friend has over 40,000 hours experience…my niece has only 20,000…again…so what!

How much experience do you have? My dad has 90,000+ hours experience as an attorney. Does that make me an expert at trial law?

What you say does not make sense. There is a HUGE amount of cost shifting through Medicare/Medicaid in the hospital setting. They don't reimburse enough to cover costs. And it DOES create a supply/demand imbalance. That is why we made Medicaid non-emergency patients wait so long. To make them go the the more cost effective clinic next time. So that we had free beds for the real emergencies.

[coastal]

Pete,

seeing you know all about Meidcare why don't you educate the masses about DRG's Rug's and HHRG's.

I'm sure you know all about Pay for Performance as well. In case you're present pathology is affecting your memory, then by all means can you explain exactly how Medicare is now tying a portion of Providers monies to the outcomes they acheive.

Also, would you care to enlighten the masses and tell them what treatment setting Medicare has chosen to treat the extremely expensive and cost draining diseases of CHF and COPD?

Once you've gotten through all of that, would you care to explain what any of this has to do with cost shifting.

Tool.

[35Pete]

I have 30 years experience in the movie, television and advertising business so when it comes to culture and propaganda everyone else can just STFU.

And I would not get into it with you over mass media things like film quality, ect...

[35Pete]

Pete,

seeing you know all about Meidcare why don't you educate the masses about DRG's Rug's and HHRG's.

I'm sure you know all about Pay for Performance as well. In case you're present pathology is affecting your memory, then by all means can you explain exactly how Medicare is now tying a portion of Providers monies to the outcomes they acheive.

Also, would you care to enlighten the masses and tell them what treatment setting Medicare has chosen to treat the extremely expensive and cost draining diseases of CHF and COPD?

Once you've gotten through all of that, would you care to explain what any of this has to do with cost shifting.

Tool.

What's the point? I could google them in 5 minutes. And that is what you would claim. I am talking from first hand experience, tool.

[uppy]

Pete,

seeing you know all about Meidcare why don't you educate the masses about DRG's Rug's and HHRG's.

I'm sure you know all about Pay for Performance as well. In case you're present pathology is affecting your memory, then by all means can you explain exactly how Medicare is now tying a portion of Providers monies to the outcomes they acheive.

Also, would you care to enlighten the masses and tell them what treatment setting Medicare has chosen to treat the extremely expensive and cost draining diseases of CHF and COPD?

Once you've gotten through all of that, would you care to explain what any of this has to do with cost shifting.

Tool.

Petes not on Meidcare why would he know ?

[coastal]

What's the point? I could google them in 5 minutes. And that is what you would claim. I am talking from first hand experience, tool.

We are waiting for the answers to those questions Pete.

We need the light your expertise grants us to make our way.

[shiva2999]

And I would not get into it with you over mass media things like film quality, ect...

Since you've got NO experience in the field you do not get to decide what I'm credible or not on.

I'll tell you.

[coastal]

How much experience do you have? My dad has 90,000+ hours experience as an attorney. Does that make me an expert at trial law?

What you say does not make sense. There is a HUGE amount of cost shifting through Medicare/Medicaid in the hospital setting. They don't reimburse enough to cover costs. And it DOES create a supply/demand imbalance. That is why we made Medicaid non-emergency patients wait so long. To make them go the the more cost effective clinic next time. So that we had free beds for the real emergencies.

Hey Pete,

you do realize Medicare's cost-based reimbursement schedule is no longer being used in hospitals or any other setting, don't you?

[coastal]

Petes not on Meidcare why would he know ?

Don't give him an out.

You don't have a shred of compassion in you, so you should enjoy watching him burn.

[35Pete]

Hey Pete,

you do realize Medicare's cost-based reimbursement schedule is no longer being used in hospitals or any other setting, don't you?

Are you refering to PPS, COREs and things of the like?

[35Pete]

Don't give him an out.

You don't have a shred of compassion in you, so you should enjoy watching him burn.

Quit being a jack ass. The childish "you oppose national healthcare so you don't care if the poor die" argument is banal, lame, and old.

[coastal]

Are you refering to PPS, COREs and things of the like?

Prospective Payment System was part of what famous legislation Pete?

Here's a hint.

A Republican I'm sure you love and admire helped to pass the legislation.

Know who it is and what I'm talking about?

You might actually learn something tonight if you're not careful.

[35Pete]

Prospective Payment System was part of what famous legislation Pete?

Here's a hint.

A Republican I'm sure you love and admire helped to pass the legislation.

Know who it is and what I'm talking about?

You might actually learn something tonight if you're not careful.

Actually I don't know which rep did it. Nor do I really care.

[Tedp]

How pathetic do you have to be to expect your employer to pay for your health care? Just wondering (challenging that basic bit of Americana...).



Man, they already do, all over the world. Ever hear of Canadians heading south to get elective care from us? It happens all the time. Brits fly to India to get surgery done cheap.

When everyone is forced to get the same (anything), that (anything) can be nothing but mediocre.

It is call free market anEin. It is not a handout but part of total compensation for ones labour.

[coastal]

Actually I don't know which rep did it. Nor do I really care.

I'm sure you don't mean that Pete.

I know you well, and if this man ran for President... in say 2008, I'm quite sure you would be pimping his glory in full throat right here on the Range.

Here's another hint... he has long ties to the healthcare industry and behind the scenes is known as a progressive compromiser.

Some would call him a great man. Evil? To be sure, but a great man, none the less.

Still don't want to know who was instrumental in removing cost based reimbursement from Medicare all the way back in 1996/1997 and why that has any bearing on why your arguement with notacon was ill formed?

[shiva2999]

Ted!

Dude!

I see you're holding down the right-wing back at the fort but it sure seems like the true believers aren't as enthusiastic as they were once upon a time.

[uppy]

Don't give him an out.

You don't have a shred of compassion in you, so you should enjoy watching him burn.

I'm not giving him an out....The man works for a living,so why in hell would
he know about Medicare ?

[coastal]

I'm not giving him an out....The man works for a living,so why in hell would
he know about Medicare ?
He opened his pie hole in this thread all the while bragging about his expertise.

Sukie. I have 7 year's experience in the health care setting. You have what? 20?

When I hear these people "guess" at what is going on it makes me laugh at such ignorance. You can tell that they are just guessing. Or reading blog material.

And we all know the relationship Pete has with his expertise, so...

I'm just clarifying who in this thread is an expert, and who isn't.

Not just that, but he brought Medicare and Medicaid (which are not the same thing AT ALL anyways) into the discussion to justify his arguement, albeit incorrectly.

The bigger enemy is the lack of market forces acting on pricing, combined with Medicaid/Medicare cost shifting.

So.

Like I said... mind your business.

[uppy]

He opened his pie hole in this thread all the while bragging about his expertise.



And we all know the relationship Pete has with his expertise, so...

I'm just clarifying who in this thread is an expert, and who isn't.

Not just that, but he brought Medicare and Medicaid (which are not the same thing AT ALL anyways) into the discussion to justify his arguement, albeit incorrectly.



So.

Like I said... mind your business.

I think its you that is using Medicare and Medicaid as a strawman to attempt
to bash Pete

[coastal]

I think its you that is using Medicare and Medicaid as a strawman to attempt to bash Pete
I'm bashing him to be sure.

He's been asking for it, but in my defense I have been giving him every opportunity to engage this discussion like a man.

So if you wouldn't mind stepping aside, I would like to contiue.

[sukie]

I bill for my services in my office. Along with every other department that is either free standing or hospital based. Everything is billed with Medicare's CPT codes. Same in physical therapy.

[coastal]

I bill for my services in my office. Along with every other department that is either free standing or hospital based. Everything is billed with Medicare's CPT codes. Same in physical therapy.
Gee thanks.

[sukie]

So ask me questions instead of Pete... I'd like specifics however...

[coastal]

So ask me questions instead of Pete... I'd like specifics however...

I figured the two of you were concocting some bear trap for me in the mod's forum.

I'll humor you... seeing Pete has limped away in shame.

You can start by answering all the questions I posed for Pete that he didn't answer.

And then from there would you care to explain how Pete's mention that price controls are not in check secondary to a lack of market forces and what that has to do with cost shifting (even though I've already shown that hasn't occurred in years) has to do with his arguement?

[sukie]

What in particular do you need to know about those Medicare initials? I deal with coding that is CPT codes... Medicare, HMO, Private... it is all based on CPT

[coastal]

I know all about CPT and ICD9 codes. Are you a biller?

[35Pete]

I figured the two of you were concocting some bear trap for me in the mod's forum.

I'll humor you... seeing Pete has limped away in shame.

You can start by answering all the questions I posed for Pete that he didn't answer.

And then from there would you care to explain how Pete's mention that price controls are not in check secondary to a lack of market forces and what that has to do with cost shifting (even though I've already shown that hasn't occurred in years) has to do with his arguement?

I didn't limp away. I was upgrading software.

[coastal]

And I don't need to know anything about those initials sukie. I know exactly what they mean and what is happening in my industry.

Like Pete says... it is my life blood.

Pete needs to do a little research on the real purpose behind the Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit (Part D) and then revisit notacon's posts and he might actually learn something rather than just sit back and vomit hate.

Let him know for me, alright?

[sukie]

I know all about CPT and ICD9 codes. Are you a biller?

I provide the codes for my biller... That job pays dick. I am well versed as I expect you are in medical billing... Be right back... I need to colude with Pete.

[coastal]

I didn't limp away. I was upgrading software.

Then the skin on your ass is a lot thicker than mosts.

[coastal]

I provide the codes for my biller... That job pays dick. I am well versed as I expect you are in medical billing... Be right back... I need to colude with Pete.

I can hardly wait.

[35Pete]

And I don't need to know anything about those initials sukie. I know exactly what they mean and what is happening in my industry.

Like Pete says... it is my life blood.

Pete needs to do a little research on the real purpose behind the Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit (Part D) and then revisit notacon's posts and he might actually learn something rather than just sit back and vomit hate.

Let him know for me, alright?

I'll tell you what I will do then. I won't pull a Shiva and pretend to know more about your field that ypu do and make an ass out of myself like he did. Instead I'll sit back and watch you and sukie talk. He's been in it for 20 years. Between the two of you this ought to be very informative and interesting.

[coastal]

BTW sukie, what do you do within the field?

[coastal]

I won't pretend to know more about your field that ypu do. You've already done that.

Thanks for the entertainment.

Now sit back and enjoy the show junior.

[sukie]

Coastal.... I am a Medical Dosimetrist... Before that a Radiation Therapist.

And to be fair... you?

[coastal]

Physical Therapist by license.

Now I help run a Medicare certified home care agency in the State of Florida.

[coastal]

You work for a physician owned practice?

[sukie]

Nope... corporate. We deal with Medicare, HMO, Medicaid, and a few privates

[coastal]

Sweet gig for the docs I assume? 40 hours a week and minimal to no on-call.

Anyways, are we going to keep jerking off or do you and Pete have a point you want to address?

[sukie]

No Pete... just me... I asked you the last question... I can't scoll up for you... You tossed out a bunch of initials without spelling out the impact to physical therapy (which I assume is your realm). Pete's playing video games.

[uppy]

looks to me like you are backing up coastal.

[sukie]

He's not backing up... it's 10:20... I have beer and time to wait.

[coastal]

You're hammered. Aren't you?

Listen...

I didn't bring up Medicare... the poor... physcial therapy... or anything else for that matter.

Pete was in this thread running all kinds of ridiculous, poorly thought out smack desgined to make himself feel better.

I came in to set him straight and to perhaps shed some light on a topic that is going to have to be faced by all Americans whether they like it or not in the coming years.

Pete couldn't cope cuz I was starting to make it hurt... so he bailed in favor of his soldiers.

I smacked uppy around for awhile and then you showed up. You're harmless and all but I am not understanding what you are doing here.

[coastal]

looks to me like you are backing up coastal.
You know what CPT codes are?

They are the codes you use that describe the treatments you provide.

Once you're in a setting you'll learn the 10 or so codes that are applicable to you and then go about your meaningless medical worker existence.

So if you are insinuating that sukie's long history of working in the medical field has me somehow anxious about engaging him in this discussion, then you're wrong.

You'll all be my bitches before this is all over.

[sukie]

So Coastal... It's me and you... fire away.

[coastal]

pathetic.

[sukie]

Coastal... do you see a crisis? Do you see anything unjust with banning private insurance in the name of the state?

[sukie]

pathetic.

Pardon?

[uppy]

I smacked uppy around for awhile and then you showed up. You're harmless and all but I am not understanding what you are doing here.


You smacked Me around ?

You asked me not to post in the thread.....LMAO


Wow...

Yours always,

Pete's soldier

[uppy]

You know what CPT codes are?

They are the codes you use that describe the treatments you provide.

Once you're in a setting you'll learn the 10 or so codes that are applicable to you and then go about your meaningless medical worker existence.

So if you are insinuating that sukie's long history of working in the medical field has me somehow anxious about engaging him in this discussion, then you're wrong.

You'll all be my bitches before this is all over.

I don't care...my health care is free

[coastal]

Your frame sucks and you seemingly have an inability to grasp mine so I'll have to get a little more detailed about it...

Let's start with Part D. Any clue as to what the intention of the Medicare Prescription Plan is?

You and Pete will love it.

Its actually a pretty slick piece of legislation designed to steer people automatically away from their traditional Medicare coverage.

Its all very confusing but it goes something like this...

Herbert and Gladys hear all about this new Medicare Prescription Program. Excited they ask their doctor about it and the doctor has no clue, because the people they get their information from regarding drugs want nothing more than to get into the back, fill up their cabinets, and blow the doctors on the way out.

So their doctors tell them to call the government and ask... or get onlione and find out for themselves.

That goes nowhere so they show up to their pharmacy for answers and drugs and happen to find these Medicare Part D informational booths (manned by private insurance company sales people.)

Super! Just what they needed.

There are basically two options for Gladys and Herbert.

Sign up for the additional drug coverage and keep your traidtional Medicare benefits. Keep in mind there are close to 50 different plans you can sign up for and not all of them have the medications that Gladys and Herbert may need but who cares. Its free and confusing right? Oh, and there is an additional premium for this service that they will be charged monthly.

or

Give up asking questions and sign on the dotted line for no premuims, no questions, and they'll handle it all. BTW, did they fail to mention that they have just signed away their traditional Medicare benefits in favor of a Medicare replacement... an HMO. By the time they'll find out, it will be too late to change their minds. They are on the hook for one year with that decision. Translation: Welcome to the no-care zone!

The difference between the two... one plan is administered by the government and a fiscal intermediary (believe you probably use First Coast) and is a traditional fee for service arrangement with the beneficary.

The other one is administered by a private insurance company (Medicare pays the insurance company a fee for this service in lieu of a fee for service arrangement with the beenficiary). This means the insurance company gets a certain amount of money to manage the care of the patient. The risk for the insurance company is to make sure that more care isn't provided than they have money to cover. Sound like there may be some ethical problems with all of that. That's okay, let's assume that all the care that is needed is actually provided. Cool. The insurance company can always delay payment to the point where it ends up in court and they get out of the full bill with a settlement instead. You see, under traditional Medicare... a business knows what money is coming in because the government pays. With the insurance companies... it's a crap shoot.

So, can you see how notacon may have the opinion that insurance companies are the biggest problem facing the healthcare industry?

I can...

and you and your master have provided zero evidence that what he said is incorrect.

[coastal]

I don't care...my health care is free

As long as you get yours...

**** the rest.

[sukie]

Your frame sucks and you seemingly have an inability to grasp mine so I'll have to get a little more detailed about it...

Let's start with Part D. Any clue as to what the intention of the Medicare Prescription Plan is?

You and Pete will love it.

Its actually a pretty slick piece of legislation designed to steer people automatically away from their traditional Medicare coverage.

Its all very confusing but it goes something like this...

Herbert and Gladys hear all about this new Medicare Prescription Program. Excited they ask their doctor about it and the doctor has no clue, because the people they get their information from regarding drugs want nothing more than to get into the back, fill up their cabinets, and blow the doctors on the way out.

So their doctors tell them to call the government and ask... or get onlione and find out for themselves.

That goes nowhere so they show up to their pharmacy for answers and drugs and happen to find these Medicare Part D informational booths (manned by private insurance company sales people.)

Super! Just what they needed.

There are basically two options for Gladys and Herbert.

Sign up for the additional drug coverage and keep your traidtional Medicare benefits. Keep in mind there are close to 50 different plans you can sign up for and not all of them have the medications that Gladys and Herbert may need but who cares. Its free and confusing right? Oh, and there is an additional premium for this service that they will be charged monthly.

or

Give up asking questions and sign on the dotted line for no premuims, no questions, and they'll handle it all. BTW, did they fail to mention that they have just signed away their traditional Medicare benefits in favor of a Medicare replacement... an HMO. By the time they'll find out, it will be too late to change their minds. They are on the hook for one year with that decision. Translation: Welcome to the no-care zone!

The difference between the two... one plan is administered by the government and a fiscal intermediary (believe you probably use First Choice) and is a traditional fee for service arrangement with the beneficary.

The other one is administered by a private insurance company (Medicare pays the insurance company a fee for this service in lieu of a fee for service arrangement with the beenficiary). This means the insurance company gets a certain amount of money to manage the care of the patient. The risk for the insurance company is to make sure that more care isn't provided than they have money to cover. Sound like there may be some ethical problems with all of that. That's okay, let's assume that all the care that is needed is actually provided. Cool. The insurance company can always delay payment to the point where it ends up in court and they get out of the full bill with a settlement instead. You see, under traditional Medicare... a business knows what money is coming in because the government pays. With the insurance companies... it's a crap shoot.

So, can you see how notacon may have the opinion that insurance companies are the biggest problem facing the healthcare industry?

I can...

and you and your master have provided zero evidence that what he said is incorrect.
So you are not in favor of governmentally provided healthcare... Smart choice.

[uppy]

As long as you get yours...

**** the rest.

The rest can have it too..all thay need to do is join the military.

Its easy,you want health care for life stand up for your country.

[coastal]

So you are not in favor of governmentally provided healthcare... Smart choice.
Part D has nothing to do with being a government entitlement.

It was designed to kill an entitlement, under the guise of providing more services to those in the need.

It is a brilliant piece of legislation.

[coastal]

The rest can have too..all thay need to do is join the military.

Its easy,you want health care for life stand up for your country.

Why stop there?

Make military service compulsory.

Then we'll see where this country really stands on the use of the military.

I can promise you we wouldn't be in Iraq right now.

[Green Lantern]

Why stop there?

Make military service compulsory.

Then we'll see where this country really stands on the use of the military.

I can promise you we wouldn't be in Iraq right now.


Did you see that McCain's son will be active-duty marine by the time 2008 election season rolls around?

[uppy]

[QUOTE=coastal;1363552]Why stop there?

Make service compulsory.

Thats the only way liberals would service the country is with compulsory
service....Libbys have no balls so thay don't join the Army.

Then we'll see where this country really stands on the use of the military.

I can promise you we wouldn't be in Iraq right now.


Let me get this....you libbys don't join the military but you think
we should have a draft so libbys will be forced into it.


Spineless jelly fish

LMAO

[coastal]

What happened to the chart you just posted about inflation and Medicare growth Pete.

It just disappeared up and before my eyes.

I tried to quote it and got "Invalid Thread" error on my screen.

Did you figure out that I wouldn't be able to figure out wtf your point was?

[coastal]

Thats the only way liberals would service the country is with compulsory
service....Libbys have no balls so thay don't join the Army.




Let me get this....you libbys don't join the military but you think
we should have a draft so libbys will be forced into it.


Spineless jelly fish

LMAO
I don't have a problem with the size of my dick.

[coastal]

Did you see that McCain's son will be active-duty marine by the time 2008 election season rolls around?

I didn't see that.

Not a bad price to pay.

A son for a presidency.

What people think is honor is often insane.

[35Pete]

What happened to the chart you just posted about inflation and Medicare growth Pete.

It just disappeared up and before my eyes.

I tried to quote it and got "Invalid Thread" error on my screen.

Did you figure out that I wouldn't be able to figure out wtf your point was?

Nope. Made a math error. Correcting now.

[coastal]

stay on target.

stay on target.

[coastal]

While you guys are jerking off, check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffGuPy14VM8

[K-Gun]

[QUOTE]

Thats the only way liberals would service the country is with compulsory
service....Libbys have no balls so thay don't join the Army.




Let me get this....you libbys don't join the military but you think
we should have a draft so libbys will be forced into it.


Spineless jelly fish

LMAO


LOL! Sure thing Gomer, sure thing.

[35Pete]

Here it is. I forgot to factor medical related contributions TO inflation before adjusting to 1993 dollars.

Inflation
http://eh.net/hmit/inflation/

Medicare
http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/content/drugAssistance/medicare/d/reporters/Facts%20and%20Figures/Kaiser%20Chartbook/Medicare%20Spending,%20Kaiser%20Study.pdf#search=% 22medicare%20spending%22

Doesn't seem like Medicare is paying more.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/35Pete/medicare.jpg

[35Pete]

Goddamit. That is the old chart. Don't quote yet.

[35Pete]

Ok.

[coastal]

okay.

[uppy]

[QUOTE=upstart;1363574]


LOL! Sure thing Gomer, sure thing.

I know you did your time...but I bet you were not a libbie when you joined.


Tell the truth......don't lie.

[Blue_Bandana]

http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=1498



The public debate around universal health care proceeds as if it were a wild, untested experiment -- as if the United States would be doing something never done before.

Yet universal health care is in place throughout the industrialized world. In most cases, doctors and hospitals operate as private businesses. But government pays the bills, which reduces paperwork costs to a fraction of the American level. It also cuts out expensive insurance corporations and HMO's, with their multimillion-dollar CEO compensation packages, and billions in profit. Small wonder "single payer" systems can cover their entire populations at half the per capita cost. In the United States, people without insurance may live with debilitating disease or pain, with conditions that prevent them from getting jobs or decent pay, putting many on a permanent poverty track. They have more difficulty managing chronic conditions — only two in five have a regular doctor -- leading to poorer health and greater cost.


http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=1503

Should the United States implement a more inclusive, publicly funded health care system? That's a big debate throughout the country. But even as it rages, most Americans are unaware that the United States is the only country in the developed world that doesn't already have a fundamentally public--that is, tax-supported--health care system.

That means that the United States has been the unwitting control subject in a 30-year, worldwide experiment comparing the merits of private versus public health care funding. For the people living in the United States, the results of this experiment with privately funded health care have been grim. The United States now has the most expensive health care system on earth and, despite remarkable technology, the general health of the U.S. population is lower than in most industrialized countries. Worse, Americans' mortality rates--both general and infant--are shockingly high.

[notacon]

Nice articles Blue_Bandana.

I especially like this quote…


Cutting costs, cutting care There are two criteria used to judge a country’s health care system: the overall success of creating and sustaining health in the population, and the ability to control costs while doing so. One recent study published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal compares mortality rates in private forprofit and nonprofit hospitals in the United States. Research on 38 million adult patients in 26,000 U.S. hospitals revealed that death rates in for-profit hospitals are significantly higher than in nonprofit hospitals: for-profit patients have a 2 percent higher chance of dying in the hospital or within 30 days of discharge. The increased death rates were clearly linked to "the corners that for-profit hospitals must cut in order to achieve a profit margin for investors, as well as to pay high salaries for administrators."


Coastal was doing a good job of supporting my contention that insurance companies are a big part of the problem in the US health care industry. Thanks.

No, I do not have direct experience in the HC industry…doesn’t matter. Sukie and Pete do but they are biased with their deep seated right wing belief that the “market” can do no wrong. It is a one note tune that defies logic and reason.

My experience comes from the business world. Insurance companies are a business….nothing more. Their only reason for existence is to turn a profit. They will do ANYTHING to maximize profit. Additionally the people that run these companies are incredibly well (over) paid.

Their sales are premiums. Their costs are paying benefits. The premiums are (somewhat) controlled by market forces...competition. The most effective way to maximize profit is to control costs. They do this by working hard to minimize paying benefits.

The profit motive and market forces are inconsistent with quality health care when the best way to maximize profit is to deny your customers exactly what they are paying for…payment for that care.

[35Pete]

Nice articles Blue_Bandana.

I especially like this quote…



Coastal was doing a good job of supporting my contention that insurance companies are a big part of the problem in the US health care industry. Thanks.

No, I do not have direct experience in the HC industry…doesn’t matter. Sukie and Pete do but they are biased with their deep seated right wing belief that the “market” can do no wrong. It is a one note tune that defies logic and reason.

My experience comes from the business world. Insurance companies are a business….nothing more. Their only reason for existence is to turn a profit. They will do ANYTHING to maximize profit. Additionally the people that run these companies are incredibly well (over) paid.

Their sales are premiums. Their costs are paying benefits. The premiums are (somewhat) controlled by market forces...competition. The most effective way to maximize profit is to control costs. They do this by working hard to minimize paying benefits.

The profit motive and market forces are inconsistent with quality health care when the best way to maximize profit is to deny your customers exactly what they are paying for…payment for that care.

And to suggest that a single payer system does not produce unlimited demand is also a one note tune. Go to any ER and more than half the patients are Medicaid or Medicare. Incredibly disproportioate to their population. True, some of the medicare patients are there for a reason as age indicates this but a LOT of patients from both groups use the ER at will, especially the Mastercaid crowd.

[35Pete]

Besides. It's not about cost. It is about me being able to choose my coverage and not being forced to pay for others.

[notacon]

And to suggest that a single payer system does not produce unlimited demand is also a one note tune. Go to any ER and more than half the patients are Medicaid or Medicare. Incredibly disproportioate to their population. True, some of the medicare patients are there for a reason as age indicates this but a LOT of patients from both groups use the ER at will, especially the Mastercaid crowd.

I never said, or even suggested, that a single payer system does not produce unlimited demand…stop pulling what you think I said out of your ass.

Indeed, the present private insurance company method we use produces the same “unlimited demand” that a single payer method would.

The ER having more than ½ Medicare and Medicaid patients I would like to see quantified with some kind of fact.

Even if it is true I don’t see how it matters one iota. If you are trying to suggest (I don’t know please clarify) that an entitlement of Medicare and Medicaid produce more ER visits than insurance based benefits…I really don’t see why.

The idea that one is getting health care “paid” for by either the government OR the insurance company would produce the same mindset.

I think a more realistic explanation is that the elderly need more care…period!

The Medicaid patients are poor and (usually) more ignorant and cannot get proper care through a doctor in a doctors office.

In any event, I do not believe that ER visits are indicative of the overall problem with health care.


Besides. It's not about cost. It is about me being able to choose my coverage and not being forced to pay for others.

If you have health insurance you already do pay for others health care.

There is nothing to say that a single payer government based system cannot have choices in coverage with various deductibles like insurance companies provide.

My contention is that insurance companies, by their very existence, are incompatible with the combination of good health care and efficiency.

The administrative cost comparison of private health companies and Medicare already prove that one is more efficient than the other. The comparison of quality of care as measured by death rates with countries that have universal health care is proof that private insurance model does not provide better quality care.

All the while the US is paying more for less quality care.

[jimmifli]

Their sales are premiums. Their costs are paying benefits. The premiums are (somewhat) controlled by market forces...competition. The most effective way to maximize profit is to control costs. They do this by working hard to minimize paying benefits.

Actually that's not true. Most insurance companies lose money on the premiums they write. They make money by investing the premiums for years before a pay out, it's called float. The most effective way to maximize profit is to invest better.

The real problem with health insurance business is that the insurance companies don't get your money for very long before they have to pay out.

Insurance should do three things for it to exist in a marketplace:

1 It should pool risk.
2 It should be cheaper than "self insuring" (not just for the individual but for the sum of its customers).
3 It should make a profit.

Health insurance fulfills number 1 and 3 but I don't see how it can accomplish 2 without giving up 3. In other words because the insurance companies don't have your money for long enough to generate excess returns from investment, the only way they can make money is by doing what notacon suggested.

Frankly, they wouldn't exist in other industries like life or auto or business insurance. The market would drive them out of business.

[Blue_Bandana]

Besides. It's not about cost. It is about me being able to choose my coverage and not being forced to pay for others.

Ahhh... The perks of coming from an upper middle class family - with the ability to afford a good education and to be able to get a job with a company that covers most of the medical insurance costs. Maybe you need a little bit of a reality check to see what the average family without your advantages have to deal with to be able to afford even basic health coverage. Why would you want to share the share the cost to ensure that others are covered when the current system gives you the best coverage at the cheapest price. As I remember from a few years ago, you said that pay but a modest amount for full coverage - unfortunately for most others, they weren't born with your advantage. How do you reconcile to yourself, that millions of children and adults that don't have your level of coverage, because they "for the most part", weren't lucky enough to be born into your family. Basic health care may not have been written into the constitution, but maybe the spirit of the constitution expected that the people of America under one god would look after all of the country's children & adults.

From a capitalist standpoint, I can't believe that someone other than the lobby groups and companies that profit from the current system can't understand that it is more profitable for business and industry to have socialized health care. The current system makes it more expensive for any U.S. company to compete against other countries that have a pubic health care system (see U.S. auto companys - Public health care is good for the economy and it helps us all.)

("When it comes to Canada's most important social program, public institutions and public delivery are fairer and more efficient in allocating health care resources than private health care.
For years, Canadian employers have known the advantage that the public health care system offers them. For example, in the United States, the cost of private health care for US auto workers has risen to $1,500 per vehicle. This is more than the cost of steel. In Canada, health benefits for auto workers cost $120 per vehicle.)

Do you really want a system that only truely covers those that are genetically lucky or financially able enough to pay the cover charge. Public systems have their own warts, but a measure of society (even for those who go to church on Sunday) is how you protect and assist those most in need of help.

U.S. has second worst newborn death rate in modern world, report says ..
http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/


The U.S. hads the second highest infant mortality rate of any industrialized country in the world - second only to Latvia - but congratulations that you and your family have great medical coverage.

[35Pete]

Ahhh... The perks of coming from an upper middle class family - with the ability to afford a good education and to be able to get a job with a company that covers most of the medical insurance costs. Maybe you need a little bit of a reality check to see what the average family without your advantages have to deal with to be able to afford even basic health coverage. [/B]

Ahh. A guy that doesn't have a clue. I grew up in terrible