Bush: 'Hezbollah suffered a defeat'

[JLB]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/14/bush/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush declared Lebanon a front in the "global war on terrorism" Monday, equating the Israeli battle against Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas to the U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Bush said Hezbollah and its supporters in Iran and Syria were responsible for the 34-day war, and called that conflict "part of a broader struggle between freedom and terror."

[rob on the job]

Great.

Now my official Hezbollah Key-Chain® [shown below] is worthless.

Nobody loves a loser.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/15/images/large/A_1_hez2_214356_0515.jpg

[Ru]

Wow, the Hezbollah supporters sure seemed to enjoy that defeat quite a bit yesterday. I've never seen people party when they lose like that.

[Gibby]

Wow, the Hezbollah supporters sure seemed to enjoy that defeat quite a bit yesterday. I've never seen people party when they lose like that.

Down Town Buffalo after Superbowl XXV?

[JLB]

Great.

Now my official Hezbollah Key-Chain® [shown below] is worthless.

Nobody loves a loser.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/15/images/large/A_1_hez2_214356_0515.jpg

:guy: Where did you find that I need one.

[TRIPLE P]

Ummmm... you guys think anything Bush says is credible?

http://badattitudes.com/MT/mission-accomplished.jpg
http://www.kwhitaker.com/mission_accomplished.jpg

[Gibby]

:guy: Where did you find that I need one.

A better question is what is he doing with Shiva's keys?

[JLB]

Wow, the Hezbollah supporters sure seemed to enjoy that defeat quite a bit yesterday. I've never seen people party when they lose like that.
Only they could view their terrible losses as a victory.
Maybe they can enjoy more of those victories real soon.
:guy:

[JLB]

A better question is what is he doing with Shiva's keys?

Good One!!
:guy:

[rob on the job]

:guy: Where did you find that I need one.

Shiva's Politically Righteous Toy Emporium on Yonge Street in Toronto.

Today's hot seller: the Fidel Castro action figure. Mint in the box!!! Get one now before he dies and becomes even less relevant than he already is!!!

http://www.cloudcuckooland.biz/castrodoll2.jpg

[JLB]

Shiva's Politically Righteous Toy Emporium on Yonge Street in Toronto.

Today's hot seller: the Fidel Castro action figure. Mint in the box!!! Get one now before he dies and becomes even less relevant than he already is!!!

http://www.cloudcuckooland.biz/castrodoll2.jpg

That's 2 now I'm very jealous.
:guy:

[JLB]

http://www.homestead.com/ActionHeroes/castro7.jpg
Rob and Gibby look Castro is giving Shiva his new IQ. score?

[TRIPLE P]

You suckers still buying what Bush is selling are pathetic sheep.....

[rob on the job]

http://www.homestead.com/ActionHeroes/castro7.jpg
Rob and Gibby look Castro is giving Shiva his new IQ. score?

Damn!

You got a Castro figure with the kung-fu finger!

Lucky bastard!

[JLB]

He probably nows more than we do at this time.
Of course I would listen to what he has to say.

Bush said the U.N. resolution that took effect early Monday was an "important step that will help bring an end to the violence."

He said the conflict was a win for his administration's policy of encouraging democracy in the Middle East and a defeat for Hezbollah, discounting a claim of victory issued by the Shiite Muslim militia's leader earlier Monday.

[rob on the job]

You suckers still buying what Bush is selling are pathetic sheep.....

Pathetic Sheep® also are available at Shiva's Politically Righteous Toy Emporium.

http://www.ecowool.com/images/products/bg/1650.jpg

"Specially featured" sheep are available for leftists with particular tastes.

[JLB]

Damn!

You got a Castro figure with the kung-fu finger!

Lucky bastard!

Well I worked hard took my time and hell it paid off.
:guy:

[TRIPLE P]

He probably nows more than we do at this time.
Of course I would listen to what he has to say.

Bush said the U.N. resolution that took effect early Monday was an "important step that will help bring an end to the violence."

He said the conflict was a win for his administration's policy of encouraging democracy in the Middle East and a defeat for Hezbollah, discounting a claim of victory issued by the Shiite Muslim militia's leader earlier Monday.

And thats why I have a hard time taking you seriously....when has Bush proven to know more than anyone.... he didn't before 9/11..... he didn't before, or during the Iraq war.... he didn't before or during katrina...and he doesn't now.

Or HE DID KNOW and just didn't care....either way, there is no reason to take him seriously....and IF YOU expect to be taken seriously then I'd put your money on another horse....Bush is the Barbaro of politics.....

[JLB]

Pathetic Sheep® also are available at Shiva's Politically Righteous Toy Emporium.

http://www.ecowool.com/images/products/bg/1650.jpg

"Specially featured" sheep are available for leftists with particular tastes.
Ok I give you win man thats 3.
:guy:

[JLB]

And thats why I have a hard time taking you seriously....when has Bush proven to know more than anyone.... he didn't before 9/11..... he didn't before, or during the Iraq war.... he didn't before or during katrina...and he doesn't now.

Or HE DID KNOW and just didn't care....either way, there is no reason to take him seriously....and IF YOU expect to be taken seriously then I'd put your money on another horse....Bush is the Barbaro of politics.....

I would love to be put out to stud myself.
Seriously WXP he has made errors I'm the first to say so.
But you to be taken seriously must admit a few things yourself.
First your against him no matter what.
Second all the intelligence reported to him was what in part guided him.
Third admit you have never gotten over Gore and Kerry losing to him.
Has he made mistakes you bet.
Will he make more probably.
You have the right to disagree with him.
But you better damn well take him seriously.

[TRIPLE P]

But you better damn well take him seriously.

I would crack a smile if Air Force One piled into the side of a mountain....

[nehemiah]

But you better damn well take him seriously.or what?


hezbollah won. their political hand is strengthened in the middle east. they stared down the so-called toughest military in the middle east.

anyone who thinks hezbollah didn't win is lying to themself.

[JLB]

I would crack a smile if Air Force One piled into the side of a mountain....
Oh Brother!
:clamdigger:

[35Pete]

And thats why I have a hard time taking you seriously....when has Bush proven to know more than anyone.... he didn't before 9/11..... he didn't before, or during the Iraq war.... he didn't before or during katrina...and he doesn't now.

Or HE DID KNOW and just didn't care....either way, there is no reason to take him seriously....and IF YOU expect to be taken seriously then I'd put your money on another horse....Bush is the Barbaro of politics.....

Hey Aristotle. The topic is Hezbollah, not Bush.

Thought after 4,567 threads on Georgie boy we'd talk current affairs of a different nature.

[TRIPLE P]

Hey Aristotle. The topic is Hezbollah, not Bush.

Thought after 4,567 threads on Georgie boy we'd talk current affairs of a different nature.

I'm questioning the source of the information.....

[rob on the job]

or what?


hezbollah won. their political hand is strengthened in the middle east. they stared down the so-called toughest military in the middle east.

anyone who thinks hezbollah didn't win is lying to themself.

Exactly how many towns in northern Israel did Hezbollah seize?

Oh, BTW, your avatar sniffs kitty ass.

[JLB]

or what?


hezbollah won. their political hand is strengthened in the middle east. they stared down the so-called toughest military in the middle east.

anyone who thinks hezbollah didn't win is lying to themself.


or what?
I gave my opinion he should be taken seriously you got something to say please go right ahead.

:noway: This is my response to your second effort of Hezbollah won.

:guy: This is my response to your final statement.

[nehemiah]

hezbollah runs lebanon.

are you people daft?

[35Pete]

hezbollah runs lebanon.

are you people daft?

You mean Hezbollah is Lebanon and Lebanon is Hezbollah?

[rob on the job]

hezbollah runs lebanon.

are you people daft?

Well, if they run Lebanon, they sure did a shitty job protecting their citizens.

[nehemiah]

You mean Hezbollah is Lebanon and Lebanon is Hezbollah?think you got me?

try and run with that, pete.

[nehemiah]

Well, if they run Lebanon, they sure did a shitty job protecting their citizens.are you bragging about murdering women and children?

that's a "win"?

sick mind.

[nehemiah]

Hezbollah was formed to combat the Israeli occupation following the 1982 invasion of Lebanon and opposes the Israeli state.[6] It was officially founded on the 16th of February, 1985 when Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin declared the group's manifesto. It follows a distinct version of Islamic Shia ideology developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran.[7] Hezbollah is one of the two main organizations representing the Shia community, Lebanon's largest religious bloc, but the only militant one.[8] It is also a recognised political party in Lebanon, where it participates in government.[9] Hezbollah's civilian wing participates in the Parliament of Lebanon, taking just over 10% of the seats (14 out of 128) and the bloc it forms with others, the Resistance and Development Bloc, 27.3% (see Lebanese general election, 2005). Hezbollah organises an extensive social development programme. This civilian wing runs hospitals, news services, and educational facilities. Its Reconstruction Campaign ('Jihad al-Bina') is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon.[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

that is the reason you hezbollah won.

[rob on the job]

are you bragging about murdering women and children?

that's a "win"?

sick mind.

It's much healthier mind than one that thinks:

1) Hezbollah defeated Israel

2) Hezbollah runs Lebanon

3) When Israelis kill civilians, it's murder, but when Hezbollah kills civilians, it's too insignificant for notice.

[nehemiah]

It's much healthier mind than one that thinks:

1) Hezbollah defeated Israel

2) Hezbollah runs Lebanon

3) When Israelis kill civilians, it's murder, but when Hezbollah kills civilians, it's too insignificant for notice.1) that's true

2) that's true - even more so now that israel blundered through this war

3) find my post saying that - that's horse manure

[35Pete]

HAH!!!! Guess what nation this is from?

Listing of Hezbollah as Terrorist Organization—Effect on Parliamentarians and Parliamentary Associations


Hon. Marcel Prud'homme: As we all know, honourable senators, the government has decided to forbid any contact of any kind with either wing of the Hezbollah, the political one or the charitable one, which is agreeable to most Canadians. This is now the law of Canada. However, this decision is extremely difficult for me, after listening very attentively to the Solicitor General and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, for both of whom I have great respect. I became confused at noon. It is a matter of extreme importance that we be given an answer before we leave for the Christmas break.

Any contact with Hezbollah is forbidden. Fine. That is the law of the country, except that there is a very vigorous Canada- Lebanon Parliamentary Association. I could name many senators in this chamber who are members. Many members of the House of Commons are members of the Canada-Lebanon Parliamentary Association.

As honourable senators know, Hezbollah means the ``Party of God.'' It was created as a liberation movement after the invasion. They now have 12 elected members in the Parliament of Lebanon. They are federal compatriots, duly elected out of a house of 128 members — 64 Christians, 64 Muslim of all cultures.

I believe strongly that parliamentary associations are created to move forward and not to be frightened. Their mandate is to openly entertain new avenues of discussion. What is the minister's view of contact between Canadian parliamentarians and their federal compatriots, the 12 Hezbollah members of the Parliament of Lebanon?

Hon. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Government): As honourable senators know, today it was announced that three additional entities have been added to the Criminal Code provisions of the Anti-terrorism Act that we dealt with in this house as Bill C-36. The organizations that were listed are the Kurdistan Workers Party, the Aum Shinrikyo and the Hezbollah.

I do not usually read verbatim, but I want to read this statement verbatim because it is very important.

The Government of Canada has determined that these entities knowingly engaged in terrorist activity. Any person or group listed may have its assets seized and forfeited. There are severe penalties, including up to ten years imprisonment, for persons and organizations that deal in the property or finances of these listed entities.

I cannot imagine a parliamentary group dealing with either the finances or the properties of those listed groups. The statement continues:

In addition, it is a crime to knowingly participate in, contribute to or facilitate the activities of a listed entry.

Personally, I do not see any conflict between the two matters.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Exactly how many towns in northern Israel did Hezbollah seize?

You do realize it was never Hezbollah's intention to raid and seize an Israeli town do you?
I don't understand why your applying traditional military measures of victory to a guerilla force. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why you chose this avenue of nonesense.

[sukie]

What is the gauge then, Chimp?

[TheGoodShepherd]

What is the gauge then, Chimp?

You claimed hezbollah lost because they did not seize any towns. Don't get mad because I asked you a fair question about your measures of victory and how they apply to different groups.

[JLB]

or what?


hezbollah won. their political hand is strengthened in the middle east. they stared down the so-called toughest military in the middle east.

anyone who thinks hezbollah didn't win is lying to themself.

Would it be fair to say no one wins in a war?

[35Pete]

Here's the key issue jlb. Chimp doesn't give a rat's ass. It's all a charade. Just like the bull shit claims of genocide in Iraq. Think they are really humanitarians and that's what it's all about? Think again. If the Khymer Rouge were exterminating today and the body count was already up to a few hundred thousand then do you think any of them would give a rat's ass? No. I think not. In fact, Chimp wouldn't even deny it. Not about humanity jlb, all about politics and hatred for the United States. Not saying that about everyone here, but at least Chimp.

[JLB]

Well if thats true shame on him.

:poundu:

[TheGoodShepherd]

Here's the key issue jlb. Chimp doesn't give a rat's ass. It's all a charade.

What don't I care about?

Just like the bull shit claims of genocide in Iraq. Think they are really humanitarians and that's what it's all about?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. I never claimed there was genocide in Iraq. You don't have to lie to make it seem like I don't care. Even though you haven't said what it is I dont care about.

In fact, Chimp wouldn't even deny it. Not about humanity jlb, all about politics and hatred for the United States. Not saying that about everyone here, but at least Chimp.

So I hate the USA now? And you're a spokesman for all 300 million of them? More illusions huh pete?

Why don't you try to get back on topic in that other thread. Stop buying time.

[nehemiah]

Here's the key issue jlb. Chimp doesn't give a rat's ass. It's all a charade. Just like the bull shit claims of genocide in Iraq. Think they are really humanitarians and that's what it's all about? Think again. If the Khymer Rouge were exterminating today and the body count was already up to a few hundred thousand then do you think any of them would give a rat's ass? No. I think not. In fact, Chimp wouldn't even deny it. Not about humanity jlb, all about politics and hatred for the United States. Not saying that about everyone here, but at least Chimp.logical fallacy

:goal:

and it's Khmer Rouge.

[35Pete]

What don't I care about?



I have no idea what you're talking about here. I never claimed there was genocide in Iraq. You don't have to lie to make it seem like I don't care. Even though you haven't said what it is I dont care about.



So I hate the USA now? And you're a spokesman for all 300 million of them? More illusions huh pete?

Why don't you try to get back on topic in that other thread. Stop buying time.


Nice. Now you can excuse yourself from using the word genocide in Iraq. And I am sure that you will now support me when I call others out should they use it in the future. In fact I will cite you on it if you don't mind.

Thanks. Needed to see where you stood on this one.

Yes. I think that you hate the United States. I have never heard you say anything pleasant about it. At least as far as I can remember. And if you did then for every one nice thing there are 100 derogatory things said.

[rob on the job]

You do realize it was never Hezbollah's intention to raid and seize an Israeli town do you?
I don't understand why your applying traditional military measures of victory to a guerilla force. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why you chose this avenue of nonesense.

Perhaps you can enlighten us how Hezbollah "won" when Israel occupies southern Lebanon?

[TheGoodShepherd]

Yes. I think that you hate the United States. I have never heard you say anything pleasant about it. At least as far as I can remember. And if you did then for every one nice thing there are 100 derogatory things said.

I love how you toned your post down. Talk about a cave in. You're such a weak writer.


PS I don't hate America. I dont hate things I never loved.

[rob on the job]

... I dont hate things I never loved.

How reptilian.

[deconstruction]

Chip has a good point. Traditional measures of victory do not apply to gurella/irregular forces. The fact is that Hezbolla is not built for pitched battles with a full fledged army. No gurella force is. That's why they are a gurella force in the first place.

[TheGoodShepherd]

The only snake I see here is the guy who is trying to say I hate America. But that's what happens with a guy who knows he can't win a debate. He resorts to childish offbeat attacks.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Chip has a good point. Traditional measures of victory do not apply to gurella/irregular forces. The fact is that Hezbolla is not built for pitched battles with a full fledged army. No gurella force is. That's why they are a gurella force in the first place.

You think some of the posters here care about the vaildity of a good point. The only care about is themselves and their self-esteem.

[35Pete]

I love how you toned your post down. talk about a cave in. You're such a weak writer.


PS I don't hate America. I dont hate things I never loved.
Dude. I haven't toned down one bit. I have little respect for you political opinion.

[shiva2999]

Hey Aristotle. The topic is Hezbollah, not Bush.


Huh?

Isn't the thread title a Bush quote?

Seems to me the thread is about Dubya's opinion.

C'mon Pete, at least pay lip service to logic and reason.

[TheGoodShepherd]

shiva....Yet another OFF BEAT, off topic comment by pete.

LOL.....wow man, pete has serious problems with focusing on staying on topic.

[shiva2999]

Well, if they run Lebanon, they sure did a shitty job protecting their citizens.

Maybe they're not shit scared cowards like Americans.

Chalk up another great big black eye for the US and it's Israeli attack dogs.

[shiva2999]

shiva....Yet another OFF BEAT, off topic comment by pete.

LOL.....wow man, pete has serious problems with focusing on staying on topic.

The right is having a hard time concentrating.

They're daydreaming about how much they'd like to kill us.

[rob on the job]

Maybe they're not shit scared cowards like Americans.

Chalk up another great big black eye for the US and it's Israeli attack dogs.

I know what you mean.

If only that stupid ceasefire hadn't been called, wily Hezbollah would have trapped the Israelis into chasing them all the way into Turkey.

[Meathead]

israel could turn lebanon into rubble. the reason they didnt is because it would have meant killing about ten civilians to every one hezbollah guerrilla

the wording of the agreement is that hezbollah needs to be disarmed, and lebanon claims thats extactly what they are going to do. that leaves a clear justification for israel to go back in if they and whatever international force cant get the job done

israel appear to have significant political leverage that they didnt before. whether that blows up in our face like it has before remains to be seen. still, i think the calculated gamble was worth it to give people another chance to do what is right. and if hezbollah cant launch rocket attacks against israeli cities thats a major victory. of course thats a big if

the bottom line is that hezbollah targets civilians in both their offense and their defense. of course we cant let that tactic stand. if hezbollah continues to stockpile weapons in south lebanons neighborhoods to launch at civilians i can see israel going back in a couple years and rooting them out without hesitation. by then perhaps we will have formally decided that passive terrorism is still terrorism and cant be allowed. so next time i could see us sending un busses to pick civilians up in advance of another offensive. that way whoever stays is clearly trying to be an intentional martyr and will get the fate they are asking for

at some time in history we will decide that any form of civilian targeting is unacceptable and collectively enforce that decision. maybe this is that time. if not, we’ll be doing this all over again in a few years

[Meathead]

so basically i agree with junior, at least in concept

but he obviously is desperate the spin things any way he can to cover up his thoroughly failed jackass doctrine

the man has absolutely zero credibility with me, and after what we have witnessed the last six years he shouldnt have credibility with anyone on the planet

[shiva2999]

I know what you mean.

If only that stupid ceasefire hadn't been called, wily Hezbollah would have trapped the Israelis into chasing them all the way into Turkey.

I don't remember Hezbollah whining for a ceasefire.

They're not going anywhere and if you think they're going to be disarmed you're crazy.

[TheGoodShepherd]

the bottom line is that hezbollah targets civilians in both their offense and their defense. of course we cant let that tactic stand. if hezbollah continues to stockpile weapons in south lebanons neighborhoods to launch at civilians i can see israel

Israel, the US, etc has done the same. Only in greater scope and scale.

And btw meat, hezbollah fired those rockets AFTER Israel shelled beirut.
Get your freakin facts straight. Your BS won't fly here like it does at the zone.

[TheGoodShepherd]

posted by Meathead
israel appear to have significant political leverage that they didnt before.

How so?

[TheGoodShepherd]

Posted by Meathead
that leaves a clear justification for israel to go back in if they and whatever international force cant get the job done

So what gives Hezbollah clear justification to respond?

[rob on the job]

I don't remember Hezbollah whining for a ceasefire.

They're not going anywhere and if you think they're going to be disarmed you're crazy.

No, they are going to fight their way into extinction.

You guys think Hezbollah is heroic -- so why aren't waves of soldiers from other Arab nations landing in Lebanon to fight at their side? Could it be that the Arabs know something about Hezbollah that you don't?

[Meathead]

speaking of having no credibility ...

[TheGoodShepherd]

You guys think Hezbollah is heroic -- so why aren't waves of soldiers from other Arab nations landing in Lebanon to fight at their side?

I'll tell you why rob. Maybe because we don't, and have NEVER SAID Hezbollah is heroic.

Another thing why did you say "we" think they're heroic then go on about arab nations joining the fight?

Like who are you talking about there? Me and shiva or arabs in the middle east?

Try freakin writing clearly for a change.

[JLB]

I don't remember Hezbollah whining for a ceasefire.

They're not going anywhere and if you think they're going to be disarmed you're crazy.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/28/AR2006072800240.html

BEIRUT, July 28 -- As fighting raged on in southern Lebanon, Hezbollah joined the Lebanese government in a peace proposal calling for an immediate cease-fire with Israel followed swiftly by a prisoner exchange and reinforcement of U.N. troops along the embattled border, senior Lebanese officials said Friday.


Really oh I thought they did learn something new everyday.

[shiva2999]

No, they are going to fight their way into extinction.

You guys think Hezbollah is heroic -- so why aren't waves of soldiers from other Arab nations landing in Lebanon to fight at their side?

They didn't need to.

Hezbollah kicked Israel's ass all by itself.

[TheGoodShepherd]

speaking of having no credibility ...

Your posts have always been elementary and pathetic meathead. You've been wrong so many times about things.

You always assume, assume, assume. You're too lazy to do any real research on your own. I look forward to the day I can read an honest informative opinion. But i'll hold my breath.

[shiva2999]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/28/AR2006072800240.html

BEIRUT, July 28 -- As fighting raged on in southern Lebanon, Hezbollah joined the Lebanese government in a peace proposal calling for an immediate cease-fire with Israel followed swiftly by a prisoner exchange and reinforcement of U.N. troops along the embattled border, senior Lebanese officials said Friday.


Really oh I thought they did learn something new everyday.

Find me what Hexbollah said, not what Lebanese officials said about what Hezbollah said.

[35Pete]

Your posts have always been elementary and pathetic meathead. You've been wrong so many times about things.

You always assume, assume, assume. You're too lazy to do any real research on your own. I look forward to the day I can read an honest informative opinion. But i'll hold my breath.

Actually he is a damn good poster. Thoughtful and intellectual.

Now your posts just plain suck. Not you. your posts.

[rob on the job]

Your posts have always been elementary and pathetic meathead. You've been wrong so many times about things.

You always assume, assume, assume. You're too lazy to do any real research on your own. I look forward to the day I can read an honest informative opinion. But i'll hold my breath.

Meathead/Halbert and I probably couldn't agree on what time it is, but I credit him for having an informed opinion and stressing it clearly. You are wrong about him, Chimp.

[rob on the job]

... Try freakin writing clearly for a change.

Sorry. I forgot I was dealing with a guy whose idea of subtle writing is "Beetle Bailey."

[JLB]

Find me what Hexbollah said, not what Lebanese officials said about what Hezbollah said.



I'm sure you don't want to admit your wrong.
By The Washington Post no less.
You are gonna need to do some homework.
Tell me something else they never said.

[JLB]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/28/AR2006072800240.html

BEIRUT, July 28 -- As fighting raged on in southern Lebanon, Hezbollah joined the Lebanese government in a peace proposal calling for an immediate cease-fire with Israel followed swiftly by a prisoner exchange and reinforcement of U.N. troops along the embattled border, senior Lebanese officials said Friday.


Really oh I thought they did learn something new everyday.


What part was it you don't understand take your time.

[Meathead]

thanks for the props

i try to be responsibly reformed and admit when i am wrong - which fortunately isnt often lol

btw - can we confirm this one way or another:
hezbollah fired those rockets AFTER Israel shelled beirut.
my understanding is that hezbollah started firing rockets into civilian centers after israel entered lebanon to pursue those who kidnapped their soldiers in a cross-border raid by hezbollah. futhermore, that raid was conducted by hezbollah with no hostility by israel but rather in sympathetic response to israel conducting operations against hamas who had DUG A FREAKING TUNNEL under israel to attack israel soldiers

it would be nice to set the record straight and force the monkey to come up with some other lame attack. and like said before chimpster, i dont respond to fishing questions from people i dont respect. if you have a position to state, go ahead and make your case. if it is interesting i will respond

regardless, firing rockets at civilians is thoroughly unacceptable no matter what the military provocation

[TheGoodShepherd]

No I'm not wrong about him.

I've been reading his thoughts for years now. The guy has repeatedly consented to any violent action proposed by the BA administration and it's allies he claims to despise so much.

His opinions are biased, based on half-truths and certainly not intellectual. He has said many stupid things about muslims. He's even apologized many times.

I'm sick of his opinions. His arrogant way of labeling people. His sneaky way in which he tries to get a reader to feel sorry for him after he errs.

We're watching the literal playing out of the soul of the average educated US citizen in contemporary America right here on the Range. An ill informed,biased and self-serving poser.

[shiva2999]

I'm sure you don't want to admit your wrong.
By The Washington Post no less.
You are gonna need to do some homework.
Tell me something else they never said.

Thank you for proving my point once again.

You're my "go to guy" jlb.

[shiva2999]

No I'm not wrong about him.

I've been reading his thoughts for years now. The guy has repeatedly consented to any violent action proposed by the BA administration and it's allies he claims to despise so much.

Indeed.

Meat is a Frances ***uyama neo-con.

[TheGoodShepherd]

my understanding is that hezbollah started firing rockets into civilian centers after israel entered lebanon to pursue those who kidnapped their soldiers in a cross-border raid by hezbollah.

And where did you get the idea this incident was the beginning?




futhermore, that raid was conducted by hezbollah with no hostility by israel but rather in sympathetic response to israel conducting operations against hamas who had DUG A FREAKING TUNNEL under israel to attack israel soldiers

Actually no. Israel has been shelling and conducting raids for years.

it would be nice to set the record straight and force the monkey to come up with some other lame attack

Every time I prove you wrong you shut down th debate. Then you cry about how you and everyone else should ignore me.

[rob on the job]

No I'm not wrong about him.

I've been reading his thoughts for years now. The guy has repeatedly consented to any violent action proposed by the BA administration and it's allies he claims to despise so much.

His opinions are biased, based on half-truths and certainly not intellectual. He has said many stupid things about muslims. He's even apologized many times.

I'm sick of his opinions. His arrogant way of labeling people. His sneaky way in which he tries to get a reader to feel sorry for him after he errs.

We're watching the literal playing out of the soul of the average educated US citizen in contemporary America right here on the Range. An ill informed,biased and self-serving poser.

What the hell are you wheezing about?

You disagree with Meat, fine. But "ill-informed, biased and self-serving poseur" -- that's so far from reality that it destroys the credibility of your argument.

[TRIPLE P]

Thank you for proving my point once again.





Just when you think all is lost The Phoenix of Ignorance rises from the ashes of the World Trade Center.

[35Pete]

No I'm not wrong about him.

I've been reading his thoughts for years now. The guy has repeatedly consented to any violent action proposed by the BA administration and it's allies he claims to despise so much.

His opinions are biased, based on half-truths and certainly not intellectual. He has said many stupid things about muslims. He's even apologized many times.

I'm sick of his opinions. His arrogant way of labeling people. His sneaky way in which he tries to get a reader to feel sorry for him after he errs.

We're watching the literal playing out of the soul of the average educated US citizen in contemporary America right here on the Range. An ill informed,biased and self-serving poser.

Pot kettle black

Meathead could run circles around you intellectually. You are a platitude and propaganda.

[JLB]

Thank you for proving my point once again.

You're my "go to guy" jlb.
Thanks when your wrong your wrong.
Thanks for admitting your simply no match for the truth.
Thank You for proving my point.
If you ever need correction or just guidance I'm here for you.

[TheGoodShepherd]

You disagree with Meat, fine. But "ill-informed, biased and self-serving poseur" -- that's so far from reality that it destroys the credibility of your argument.

No it ain't. It's accurate. Anyone who has been reading his posts with half a brain for as long as I have will tell you so.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Pot kettle black

Meathead could run circles around you intellectually. You are a platitude and propaganda.

Yea and you'd know right?

Go on pete. Post another apology about how you were wrong about something. I love to see you at your weakest.

[JLB]

Just when you think all is lost The Phoenix of Ignorance rises from the ashes of the World Trade Center.
Quiet they still don't know youv'e risen from the ashes of the WTC.

[rob on the job]

No it ain't. It's accurate. Anyone who has been reading his posts with half a brain for as long as I have will tell you so.

I respectfully disagree.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Gee rob, could that be because you agreed with everything the BA has done also?

No, that couldn't be why.

[rob on the job]

Gee rob, could that be because you agreed with everything the BA has done also?

No, that couldn't be why.

No, because no Range member deserves that kind of vitriol.

[shiva2999]

Meathead could run circles around you intellectually.

Meat is a smart guy but unfortunately his inbred American chauvinism means he's deeply confused about the real world.

Like a lot of guys here.

[shiva2999]

No, because no Range member deserves that kind of vitriol.

More than a few deserve that and more.

[TheGoodShepherd]

No, because no Range member deserves that kind of vitriol.

No wonder Americans use and buy the world's smartest immigrants to fill their R&D weapon's labs to build war machines so as to protect the American soldier from face to face fighting.

Deep down inside, the American is a paper tiger.

You say he doesn't deserve it. I say suck it up. His consent, much like yours, led to the deaths of any people and the broken dreams of many families.

And you're whining about protecting the integrity of a poster whose consent to madness led to so much real grief. Not the perceived psycho bable crap Americans are famous for 'suffering' through.

Get a clue

[shiva2999]

No wonder Americans use immigrants to fill their R&D weapon's labs to build war machines so as to protect the American soldier from face to face fighting.

Deep down inside, the American is paper tiger.

You say he doesn't deserve it. I say suck it up. His consent, much like yours, led to the deaths of any people and the broken dreams of many families.

And you're whining about the integrity of a poster whose consent to madness led to so much real grief.

Get a clue

+1.

the problem is America has had so much blood on their hands for so long they don't recognize it anymore.

[rob on the job]

More than a few deserve that and more.

Thus spake Supreme Justice Shiva.

http://www.partypants.co.uk/images/wig-judge-judges.jpg

[shiva2999]

Thus spake Supreme Justice Shiva.


With "Fat Tony" Scalia writing the dissenting opinion I'm sure...

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/duncanblack/scalia.jpg

[35Pete]

Hey Chimp you phony. Where is your outrage about Darfur? Hmmm?

Ohh well. No mileage in muslims killing muslims.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Hey Chimp you phony. Where is your outrage about Darfur? Hmmm?

And he goes OFF TOPIC yet again shiva...LOL

[35Pete]

And he goes OFF TOPIC yet again shiva...LOL

You KNOW there is a thread here on that. Go in there and like usual, say something stupid. I could use a good laugh.

[35Pete]

The years of bombing of Israeli cities by the rockets of the Party of God become a foretaste of the Iranian godfather's promised destruction. And so, as Clausewitz already noted with irony, it is not the aggressor who starts the war. Instead it is he who steps in to stop the aggression. So Israel is guilty. Guilty of a collectively fomented fantasy of the end of days. From surrealistic geopolitics to delusion - just one step.

Andre Gluckmann.

[JLB]

Bomb kills senior Hizbollah member in Beirut

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-07/20/content_349758.htm

A bomb killed a senior member of Lebanese guerrilla group Hizbollah in the southern suburbs of Beirut on Monday in an attack the group blamed on Israel.

[Green Lantern]

Bomb kills senior Hizbollah member in Beirut

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-07/20/content_349758.htm

A bomb killed a senior member of Lebanese guerrilla group Hizbollah in the southern suburbs of Beirut on Monday in an attack the group blamed on Israel.


Is this good or bad, in your view?

[35Pete]

WELCOME TO EXPOSE

Ned Beasely: Welcome to Expose. The Sports Network dedicated to discovery of the truth in the PRS. With me are my colleagues Wolfgang Flugenhorn, Carl Marks, and special guest via audio link, 35Pete.


Wolfgang Flugenhorn: Pleasure to be here Ned.

Carl Marks: Death to the corporate oppressors. Hi Shiva! Hi Chimp! *waving to his family*

35Pete: Great to be here folks. Hey Ned, poke Carl in the eye for me would you?

Wolf: Got it Pete! *gives Carl the ole' three stooges double eye poke* *BOINK*

Carl: wooo woo wooo wooo! Yuk Yuk Yuk.

Ned: Well we have a pic here of Pete up and he is on audio link:

*Pic of 35Pete*
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/35Pete/35Pete.jpg

35Pete: For some reason I have a splitting headache today.

Carl: Moron. It's the clamp on your head idiot.

35Pete: Ohh, that. That's to distract me from the incredible pain of having to listen to Chimp's thinking.

Ned: Ahhh. Diversionary physical pain to dissociate from the torture of twisted mental logic huh?

35Pete: Precisely.

Ned: Well back in a minute folks. But tonight's topic is Chimp's accusation that Meathead is a lousy poster.

*pan to commercial*

[Gibby]

Shiva's Politically Righteous Toy Emporium on Yonge Street in Toronto.

Today's hot seller: the Fidel Castro action figure. Mint in the box!!! Get one now before he dies and becomes even less relevant than he already is!!!

http://www.cloudcuckooland.biz/castrodoll2.jpg

OMG. :guy:

[Gibby]

http://www.homestead.com/ActionHeroes/castro7.jpg
Rob and Gibby look Castro is giving Shiva his new IQ. score?

wow, :rofl::guy:

[JLB]

Is this good or bad, in your view?

I want all connected to Hezbollah destroyed.
He was the head of their special forces.
I don't trust the bastards.
Do you?

[TheGoodShepherd]

Surprise surprise...Israel broke the cease-fire.....lol

[Green Lantern]

I want all connected to Hezbollah destroyed.
He was the head of their special forces.
I don't trust the bastards.
Do you?


I am still trying to figure out why we here in America need to have an opinion on this. Why do we have to choose sides? I am not for Hezbollah and against Israel or vice versa. I keep trying to find out why other people are telling me that one side is right and the other is wrong. I keep pointing out that Israel has acted just as badly as the terrorists and that they showed up in the region and began the fight.

This is not our fight and as far as I can tell there is no strategic reason to support either side.

We don't, as Pete pointed out in another thread, really care too much what happens in Darfur. Not too many people cared for years what happened in Bosnia.

When Jews said, "never again" to a holocaust, did they mean to anyone or just to them and theirs?

If someone wants to take a stand for all oppressed and persecuted people, wants to not stand by for the Kymer Rouge's EVER again, I say OK. But to feign moral outrage only for allies and then yawn at the rest of the massacre's in the world is not moral outrage, it is a political ploy used to motivate people, and I am not that easily hoodwinked.

F+++ 'em all or save 'em all, but don't piss up my leg and tell me it's raining.

Sorry for the rant but sometimes this subject just pisses me off.

[JLB]

I am still trying to figure out why we here in America need to have an opinion on this. Why do we have to choose sides? I am not for Hezbollah and against Israel or vice versa. I keep trying to find out why other people are telling me that one side is right and the other is wrong. I keep pointing out that Israel has acted just as badly as the terrorists and that they showed up in the region and began the fight.

This is not our fight and as far as I can tell there is no strategic reason to support either side.

We don't, as Pete pointed out in another thread, really care too much what happens in Darfur. Not too many people cared for years what happened in Bosnia.

When Jews said, "never again" to a holocaust, did they mean to anyone or just to them and theirs?

If someone wants to take a stand for all oppressed and persecuted people, wants to not stand by for the Kymer Rouge's EVER again, I say OK. But to feign moral outrage only for allies and then yawn at the rest of the massacre's in the world is not moral outrage, it is a political ploy used to motivate people, and I am not that easily hoodwinked.

F+++ 'em all or save 'em all, but don't piss up my leg and tell me it's raining.

Sorry for the rant but sometimes this subject just pisses me off.

They Israeli's are and always will be our allies.
It might be wise as you say TO AVOID IT.
You have contributed greatly to this.
Maybe when you determine you've said all you want.
It would be time to move to something new.
Enjoy your contribution on this topic.

[Meathead]

i have zero allegiance to israel

i have 100% allegiance to the side that doesnt intentionally target civilians when the other side does

[Green Lantern]

They Israeli's are and always will be our allies.


Like the French.

I'm done.

[Gibby]

i have zero allegiance to israel

i have 100% allegiance to the side that doesnt intentionally target civilians when the other side does

well put meathead.

[shiva2999]

i have zero allegiance to israel

i have 100% allegiance to the side that doesnt intentionally target civilians when the other side does

I guess the fact 10 Lebanese civilians died for every 1 Israeli civilian was Hezbollah's fault?

[35Pete]

I guess the fact 10 Lebanese civilians died for every 1 Israeli civilian was Hezbollah's fault?
Tell your pals not to hide out among civilians.

Only cowards do that. And the people that support them. ALL people that support them are COWARDS.

[JLB]

Like the French.

I'm done.
The French can not be counted on for anything.
I'm done with them myself.
They proved their worthless.

[uppy]

I guess the fact 10 Lebanese civilians died for every 1 Israeli civilian was Hezbollah's fault?

Try to remember ,Israel has been attacked for over 40 years now.For
once in your life open that brain God gave you ....the last 5 weeks is
just a "minute" in the war to 'kill" to wipe out the State of Israel ,and should
be seen a part of the war on terror.

[Green Lantern]

Try to remember ,Israel has been attacked for over 40 years now.For
once in your life open that brain God gave you ....the last 5 weeks is
just a "minute" in the war to 'kill" to wipe out the State of Israel ,and should
be seen a part of the war on terror.

How many friends will we get in this war on terror when we say, "better to fight them over there than here," and that fighting involves 1,000 Iraqi civilian deaths a day and a 10 to 1 Lebanese civilian casualty ratio versus Israel?

What is the rest of the world to make of that logic? That their deaths are less meaningful than ours?

I am not trying to argue strategy with you but public relations. Do you not hear that flaw in the US argument? What would you think if you lived in one of those countries? Would you welcome us if we came knocking?

[JLB]

Try to remember ,Israel has been attacked for over 40 years now.For
once in your life open that brain God gave you ....the last 5 weeks is
just a "minute" in the war to 'kill" to wipe out the State of Israel ,and should
be seen a part of the war on terror.
Great Post Upstart!!

[Meathead]

How many friends will we get in this war on terror when we say, "better to fight them over there than here," and that fighting involves 1,000 Iraqi civilian deaths a day and a 10 to 1 Lebanese civilian casualty ratio versus Israel?

What is the rest of the world to make of that logic? That their deaths are less meaningful than ours?

I am not trying to argue strategy with you but public relations. Do you not hear that flaw in the US argument? What would you think if you lived in one of those countries? Would you welcome us if we came knocking?
i agree

i would only point out that we cant really count all those civilian deaths as factors to affect our conscience

without devaluing the truly innocent, we must acknowledge some subset of those civilians made the deliberate choice to stay as voluntary human shields. i am convinced of that. i dont know the percent so i cant comment on the exact magnitude, but we know that is more than possible considering that palestine has spawned a dysfunctional culture that rewards suicidal martyrdom against civilian attacks. considering the close symbiotic relationship between hezbollah and palestine it is reasonable to conclude the lebanese who sympathize with hezbollah also share certain COMPLETELY LUNATIC palestinian traits

i realize i am yet again early on this but the people who offer themselves as human shields are just as spiritually guilty as those that fire the rockets. we are only starting to see through their convenient but ultimately invalid excuses

id like to go on record and predict that relatively soon we will see something like un busses driven into known terrorist zones prior to an announced attack to give those civilians that want to get out no excuse not to. we must separate the innocent civilians from the stealth terrorists. of course eventually the extremists will just start firing on those busses, but that will represent our further cornering of those that will kill civilians for political purposes

eventually we will drive terrorist extremists to the fringe where they are less of a threat. in the meantime, we exterminate those we can find

[JLB]

i agree

i would only point out that we cant really count all those civilian deaths as factors to affect our conscience

without devaluing the truly innocent, we must acknowledge some subset of those civilians made the deliberate choice to stay as voluntary human shields. i am convinced of that. i dont know the percent so i cant comment on the exact magnitude, but we know that is more than possible considering that palestine has spawned a dysfunctional culture that rewards suicidal martyrdom against civilian attacks. considering the close symbiotic relationship between hezbollah and palestine it is reasonable to conclude the lebanese who sympathize with hezbollah also share certain COMPLETELY LUNATIC palestinian traits

i realize i am yet again early on this but the people who offer themselves as human shields are just as spiritually guilty as those that fire the rockets. we are only starting to see through their convenient but ultimately invalid excuses

id like to go on record and predict that relatively soon we will see something like un busses driven into known terrorist zones prior to an announced attack to give those civilians that want to get out no excuse not to. we must separate the innocent civilians from the stealth terrorists. of course eventually the extremists will just start firing on those busses, but that will represent our further cornering of those that will kill civilians for political purposes

eventually we will drive terrorist extremists to the fringe where they are less of a threat. in the meantime, we exterminate those we can find

Might be the best and most complete post I have ever seen.
Great Post Meathead!!!!:n4clapping: WOW DAMN GOOD!!!

[uppy]

i agree

i would only point out that we cant really count all those civilian deaths as factors to affect our conscience

without devaluing the truly innocent, we must acknowledge some subset of those civilians made the deliberate choice to stay as voluntary human shields. i am convinced of that. i dont know the percent so i cant comment on the exact magnitude, but we know that is more than possible considering that palestine has spawned a dysfunctional culture that rewards suicidal martyrdom against civilian attacks. considering the close symbiotic relationship between hezbollah and palestine it is reasonable to conclude the lebanese who sympathize with hezbollah also share certain COMPLETELY LUNATIC palestinian traits

i realize i am yet again early on this but the people who offer themselves as human shields are just as spiritually guilty as those that fire the rockets. we are only starting to see through their convenient but ultimately invalid excuses

id like to go on record and predict that relatively soon we will see something like un busses driven into known terrorist zones prior to an announced attack to give those civilians that want to get out no excuse not to. we must separate the innocent civilians from the stealth terrorists. of course eventually the extremists will just start firing on those busses, but that will represent our further cornering of those that will kill civilians for political purposes

eventually we will drive terrorist extremists to the fringe where they are less of a threat. in the meantime, we exterminate those we can find

Wow...Meathead....great post

+1 Sir

[gilchristfan]

i agree

i would only point out that we cant really count all those civilian deaths as factors to affect our conscience

without devaluing the truly innocent, we must acknowledge some subset of those civilians made the deliberate choice to stay as voluntary human shields. i am convinced of that. i dont know the percent so i cant comment on the exact magnitude, but we know that is more than possible considering that palestine has spawned a dysfunctional culture that rewards suicidal martyrdom against civilian attacks. considering the close symbiotic relationship between hezbollah and palestine it is reasonable to conclude the lebanese who sympathize with hezbollah also share certain COMPLETELY LUNATIC palestinian traits

i realize i am yet again early on this but the people who offer themselves as human shields are just as spiritually guilty as those that fire the rockets. we are only starting to see through their convenient but ultimately invalid excuses

id like to go on record and predict that relatively soon we will see something like un busses driven into known terrorist zones prior to an announced attack to give those civilians that want to get out no excuse not to. we must separate the innocent civilians from the stealth terrorists. of course eventually the extremists will just start firing on those busses, but that will represent our further cornering of those that will kill civilians for political purposes

eventually we will drive terrorist extremists to the fringe where they are less of a threat. in the meantime, we exterminate those we can find

I have a client that was born and grew up in Beirut and still has a lot of ties there (her parents are there). She was planning on a trip to Europe and Lebanon after the 4th. (After I heard what was happening on the 12th and 13th, I really feared for her life).

She came to see me about 2 weeks ago. Smartly, she decided to postpone her trip to Lebanon, and stayed in Europe. Her parents are/were in hiding in Beirut, not from police, or an army, but from bombs.

Anyways....we naturally talked a bit about current events in Lebanon. She's a college professor and a bit shy, and at first was talking sheepishly about the situation. But when it came to talking about Hezbollah and what it is in Southern Lebanon, she was at her most animated.

She said that the number one thing Americans don't understand about southern Lebanon is the support Hezbollah actually has in the south. And she stated that if they don't understand the support it has, they'll never understand why.

To most in Lebanon, she said Israel is seen as an invader. They were seen as an invader in 1982, during their 18 years of occupation, and now. Hezbollah is not seen as a terrorist group, but as a resistance group, protecting the people against the invaders. She also said they were smart enough to build themselves into the society. She said they are probably the largest supplier of social services, ie. hospitals and schools, in southern Lebanon. She said people turn to them to provide services their government cannot.

The term "human shields" is thrown around alot. But are they human shields, or are they like the people who supported the Viet Cong? Or, as Shiva brought up this morning, those who aided the French Resistance? Or, closer to home, the Minutemen? Having an armed militia blend in with the common folk is nothing new in terms of tactics against a superior invasion force.

Then you have to ask why the common folk would allow a militia to hide amongst them? It usually doesn't work unless you have the support of the people. According to my client, its because the people see Israel as invaders. Its not that people are buying into Hezbollah's radical religious stuff, or alot of their tactics, which most consider ruthless. They get support because they are seen as protectors.

Take it as one educated woman's opinion, but at least one who's been there, and might have a little perspective on the situation.

Her caveat was that an attempt to wipe out Hezbollah isn't about to end things, more will pick up for the Hezbollah dead. She said she was actually surprised about the number of Arabs in Belgium who were talking about go to Lebanon to fight, and die.

[Meathead]

thanks for the info

nothing against you but i find the term protecters, freedom fighters, or militia offensive in this case. the bottom line is that hezbollah intentionally attacks civilians and every lebanese knows that

personally i would rather die than be "protected" by people who intentionally kill other civilians to do so

a warrior is a noble profession i greatly respect. a murderer is not

[Meathead]

its not israels fault they are the stronger nation. that will never give their enemies the right to murder her citizens

if hezbollah had the same weapons they would wipe every israeli off the face of the earth

isreal could do that to lebanon but they dont

that right there shows there is no moral equivalency. one is an army and the other is a genocidal butcher

[JLB]

Israli Army halts their withdrawal from Lebanon.

[35Pete]

thanks for the info

nothing against you but i find the term protecters, freedom fighters, or militia offensive in this case. the bottom line is that hezbollah intentionally attacks civilians and every lebanese knows that

personally i would rather die than be "protected" by people who intentionally kill other civilians to do so

a warrior is a noble profession i greatly respect. a murderer is not

amazing post. Gee. Are you saying that "anything goes" is not OK with Hezbollah?

[gilchristfan]

thanks for the info

nothing against you but i find the term protecters, freedom fighters, or militia offensive in this case. the bottom line is that hezbollah intentionally attacks civilians and every lebanese knows that

personally i would rather die than be "protected" by people who intentionally kill other civilians to do so

a warrior is a noble profession i greatly respect. a murderer is not

I'm sure the people of Lebanon, after they're done ducking Israeli bombs, should rethink they're definition of freedom fighter, so they won't offend you.
I think they have a little more on their minds right now than whether an American considers them offensive.

But don't you think its ironic that this whole mess supposedly began with Hezbollah capturing 2 Israeli soldiers.

Hezbollah captures 2 soldiers - Israel bombs Beirut.

Who's intentionally targeting civilians again?

[JLB]

Israel never intentionally target civilians.

[pmoon6]

Israel never intentionally target civilians.Neither did Hitler during the Blitz. He was going after "strategic targets"

[gilchristfan]

Israel never intentionally target civilians.


Of course not. They've said so.

[TheGoodShepherd]

What do you expect from meat gil...other than no caps, and biased crap from his keyboard.

[Green Lantern]

Israel never intentionally target civilians.

I watched an Israeli documentary about Israeli soldiers who signed a petition that they would no longer conduct operations in occupied territories. It was, in my opinion, a real, balanced, documentary. It was mostly in yiddish (with subtitles) and the commentator did not make decisions, just reported the various sides and left the question open-ended for the conclusion.

Recently, more than 60 soldiers, officers and enlisted, had become so disillusioned about exercises in the occupied lands because the the barbarity of their fellow soldiers toward civilians that they refused to go to the territories any more. They did not refuse to fight in defense or remain in the military, just to go to those places.

Many of them spent time in military prisons for their stands. There is a huge uproar right now in Israel because the military is a more honored profession than law or medicine or politics and people cannot believe that their own soldiers are defining parameters proper of human conduct instead of following orders.

These soldiers say that Israeli forces are targeting and killing civilians. One even compares themselves to Nazi's with the kidnapping at night and murders of civilians during their incursions.

[Meathead]

if that could be confirmed that would certainly change my stance considerably

[Green Lantern]

if that could be confirmed that would certainly change my stance considerably


I watched it on some obscure satellite news channel. I will have to try and search for it on the web and come up with the name of it for you.

[gilchristfan]

if that could be confirmed that would certainly change my stance considerably

The Combatant's Letter

http://www.seruv.org/english/combatants_letter.asp

* We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, self-sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.


* We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty in the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.


* We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides,


* We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Occupied Territories destroy all the values that we were raised upon,


* We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society,


* We, who know that the Territories are not a part of Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated,


* We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.


* We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.


* We hereby declare that we shall continue serving the Israel Defense Force in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.


The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.




http://www.jfjfp.org/BackgroundW/refusenik_pilots.htm

The Pilots' Letter - (24 September 2003)

"We, Air Force pilots who were raised on the values of Zionism, sacrifice, and contributing to the state of Israel, have always served on the front lines, willing to carry out any mission, whether small or large, to defend and strengthen the state of Israel.

We, veteran and active pilots alike, who served and still serve the state of Israel for long weeks every year, are opposed to carrying out attack orders that are illegal and immoral of the type the state of Israel has been conducting in the territories.

We, who were raised to love the state of Israel and contribute to the Zionist enterprise, refuse to take part in Air Force attacks on civilian population centers. We, for whom the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force are an inalienable part of ourselves, refuse to continue to harm innocent civilians.

These actions are illegal and immoral, and are a direct result of the ongoing occupation which is corrupting all of Israeli society. Perpetuation of the occupation is fatally harming the security of the state of Israel and its moral strength.

We who serve as active pilots - fighters, leaders, and instructors of the next generation of pilots -- hereby declare that we shall continue to serve in the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force for every mission in defense of the state of Israel."

Signed: Brigadier General Yiftah Spector, Colonel Yigal Shohat, Colonel Ran, Lieutenant Colonel Yoel Piterberg, Lieutenant Colonel David Yisraeli, Lieutenant Colonel Adam Netzer, Lieutenant Colonel Avner Ra'anan, Lieutenant Colonel Gideon Shaham, Major Haggai Tamir, Major Amir Massad, Major Gideon Dror, Major David Marcus, Major Professor Motti Peri, Major Yotam, Major Zeev Reshef, Major Reuven, Captain Assaf, Captain Tomer, Captain Ron, Captain Yonatan, Captain Allon, Captain Amnon"


The Commandos letter

http://www.seruv.org.il/english/news_item.asp?msgid=85


Mr. Ariel Sharon



We, citizens of Israel who fulfill our duty as reserve soldiers, fighters and officers, veterans of Sayeret Matkal, have chosen to walk at the head of our camp, as we have been taught. Out of concern for the future of Israel as a Jewish, Zionist, Democratic state, and out of fear for its moral character we declare that:



* We shall no longer lend a hand in the occupation of the territories
* We shall no longer take part in the deprivation of basic human rights from millions of Palestinians
* We shall no long serve as a shield in the crusade of the settlements
* We shall no longer corrupt our moral character in missions of oppression
* We shall no longer deny our responsibility as soldiers of the Israeli DEFENSE force.



We fear for the fate of the children of this country, who are constantly subjected to an evil that is unnecessary, an evil in which we have participated. We have long ago crossed the line of those who fight for their own protection; we stand facing the border of those who fight to conquer another people.



We shall not cross this border!





We emphasize that we shall continue to protect Israel and its citizens.



"Who Dares Win"

Google "refusenik"

[JLB]

I watched it on some obscure satellite news channel. I will have to try and search for it on the web and come up with the name of it for you.

If some are they should be turned in.
By the soldiers with a conscience.
According to your post that is taken place somewhat.
I believe they will be brought to justice.
This a black eye and a terrible event.
Hopefully this is an isolated occurance.
I believe they will answer for their crimes.
I still refuse to believe that it's the intent of the Israeli Army.
This can only make things tougher for them.
Let's get more info and see if any action is taken against them.

[Green Lantern]

If some are they should be turned in.
By the soldiers with a conscience.
According to your post that is taken place somewhat.
I believe they will be brought to justice.
This a black eye and a terrible event.
Hopefully this is an isolated occurance.
I believe they will answer for their crimes.
I still refuse to believe that it's the intent of the Israeli Army.
This can only make things tougher for them.
Let's get more info and see if any action is taken against them.

I started a new thread for this, Israeli's refuse to fight.

[Green Lantern]

The Combatant's Letter

http://www.seruv.org/english/combatants_letter.asp

* We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, self-sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.


* We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty in the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.


* We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides,


* We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Occupied Territories destroy all the values that we were raised upon,


* We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society,


* We, who know that the Territories are not a part of Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated,


* We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.


* We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.


* We hereby declare that we shall continue serving the Israel Defense Force in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.


The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.




http://www.jfjfp.org/BackgroundW/refusenik_pilots.htm

The Pilots' Letter - (24 September 2003)

"We, Air Force pilots who were raised on the values of Zionism, sacrifice, and contributing to the state of Israel, have always served on the front lines, willing to carry out any mission, whether small or large, to defend and strengthen the state of Israel.

We, veteran and active pilots alike, who served and still serve the state of Israel for long weeks every year, are opposed to carrying out attack orders that are illegal and immoral of the type the state of Israel has been conducting in the territories.

We, who were raised to love the state of Israel and contribute to the Zionist enterprise, refuse to take part in Air Force attacks on civilian population centers. We, for whom the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force are an inalienable part of ourselves, refuse to continue to harm innocent civilians.

These actions are illegal and immoral, and are a direct result of the ongoing occupation which is corrupting all of Israeli society. Perpetuation of the occupation is fatally harming the security of the state of Israel and its moral strength.

We who serve as active pilots - fighters, leaders, and instructors of the next generation of pilots -- hereby declare that we shall continue to serve in the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force for every mission in defense of the state of Israel."

Signed: Brigadier General Yiftah Spector, Colonel Yigal Shohat, Colonel Ran, Lieutenant Colonel Yoel Piterberg, Lieutenant Colonel David Yisraeli, Lieutenant Colonel Adam Netzer, Lieutenant Colonel Avner Ra'anan, Lieutenant Colonel Gideon Shaham, Major Haggai Tamir, Major Amir Massad, Major Gideon Dror, Major David Marcus, Major Professor Motti Peri, Major Yotam, Major Zeev Reshef, Major Reuven, Captain Assaf, Captain Tomer, Captain Ron, Captain Yonatan, Captain Allon, Captain Amnon"


The Commandos letter

http://www.seruv.org.il/english/news_item.asp?msgid=85


Mr. Ariel Sharon



We, citizens of Israel who fulfill our duty as reserve soldiers, fighters and officers, veterans of Sayeret Matkal, have chosen to walk at the head of our camp, as we have been taught. Out of concern for the future of Israel as a Jewish, Zionist, Democratic state, and out of fear for its moral character we declare that:



* We shall no longer lend a hand in the occupation of the territories
* We shall no longer take part in the deprivation of basic human rights from millions of Palestinians
* We shall no long serve as a shield in the crusade of the settlements
* We shall no longer corrupt our moral character in missions of oppression
* We shall no longer deny our responsibility as soldiers of the Israeli DEFENSE force.



We fear for the fate of the children of this country, who are constantly subjected to an evil that is unnecessary, an evil in which we have participated. We have long ago crossed the line of those who fight for their own protection; we stand facing the border of those who fight to conquer another people.



We shall not cross this border!





We emphasize that we shall continue to protect Israel and its citizens.



"Who Dares Win"

Google "refusenik"

That was it! An Israeli documentary on the refusenik's.

[JLB]

I started a new thread for this, Israeli's refuse to fight.
Thanks.

[JLB]

Bush: In time, world will recognize Hezbollah's loss

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/18/bush.ap/index.html

CAMP DAVID, Maryland (AP) -- President Bush acknowledged Friday that it could take time for the people of Lebanon and the world to view the war between Israel and Hezbollah as a loss for the militant group.

"The first reaction of course of Hezbollah and its supporters is to declare victory. I guess I would have done the same thing if I were them," Bush said after a meeting with his economic advisers.

[JLB]

Right on George it will take a little more time.
Maybe another attack would convince them.
Attack yes it's in their future.

[rob on the job]

SEND IN THE DRUZE!!!

http://www.jtf.org/america/yyy.lebanon.israel.plo.druze.1958.small.jpg

[JLB]

SEND IN THE DRUZE!!!

http://www.jtf.org/america/yyy.lebanon.israel.plo.druze.1958.small.jpg
Thanks for the free education Rob!!