A Question for all Non Christians.

[Gibby]

What has the church done or what is it that makes you not want to become a Christian? See I generally believe that many of you support the teachings of Christ that we should take care of the less fortunate, be good to other people, live a moral life, and if it wasn't for the actions of those who claim to act in the name of Christ but actually represent their own greed and agenda you would be willing to accept him as your savior. I mean think about it if there is an afterlife wouldn't you want the best possible outcome which would be Heaven? Here are some things I think drive people away from Christ, tell me if I am right on any

1. Prophecy Folk: These are people who do nothing but speak of rapture and are so caught up on it that they do not talk about the love of Christ and how your life could be forever transformed and radically improved by relationship and fellowship with him. You know the pre rapture trib, post rapture trib people.

2. Predestination vs. Free Will: The argument that has divided the church for centuries. Actually its more of a so what. I mean Christ died for you and your sins and by professing belief in him and acknowledging his sacrifice for you you have salvation. What difference does it make if you chose him or he chose you.

3. Tithes and Reciprocity: Yes we should all give, but not to televangelists. Christ considers tithes so many varied things. Giving to the poor, victims of circumstance and what not. Also there is the teaching which is quite false that if you don't give money to ministry X God will allow you or cause you to be be harmed. Or another angle is give money and God will give you more money.

[Gibby]

Another one is backbiting people that are more akin to pharisees than followers of Christ. The Self Righteous

[BillsCAfan]

Religion has never made sense to me.

IMO, religion has always been a safety blanket for people who need that supernatural force for comfort in times of hardship.

I've studies many religions, and it's not just Christianity.

I can't bring myself to "buy" it.

[sukie]

I think a need for a creator to answer "how did we get here was necessary since it is human nature to need a answer for everything. It starts as a child about 4-5 with the rapid fire succession questions "WHY?" to any adult that will listen.

The notion that we just don't know is not acceptable to the masses.

[shiva2999]

Religion has never made sense to me.

IMO, religion has always been a safety blanket for people who need that supernatural force for comfort in times of hardship.

I've studies many religions, and it's not just Christianity.

I can't bring myself to "buy" it.

Jesus didn't buy it either. He was quite content to be a Jew.

And the heart of Judaism is the Golden Rule.

[Gibby]

Jesus didn't buy it either. He was quite content to be a Jew.

And the heart of Judaism is the Golden Rule.

For once we agree, and on both counts. So is it twice we agree?

[shiva2999]

For once we agree, and on both counts. So is it twice we agree?

You agree with most things I post.

You just don't like to.

[sukie]

twice per year. (openly)

[Gibby]

twice per year. (openly)

I'm more liberal than you, its 9-10 times a year.

[shiva2999]

Phantom gets cheesed off because he knows my theological views are bang on.

[sukie]

It's one of the two things a year I agree with you on , Shiva.

[Gibby]

Phantom gets cheesed off because he knows my theological views are bang on.

negative. I think they are wrong, and a deterrent to a very good poster.

[shiva2999]

negative. I think they are wrong, and a deterrent to a very good poster.

See? He's starting to get cheesed off now.

But deep down he knows Jesus never demanded people believe in him as their saviour to achieve salvation.

He only said people need to act like him.

The problem for most people is believing in Jesus is much easier than acting like Jesus.

[uppy]

When I went into the Army, I was a non beliver...I thought theological views
and religion were a joke.Fear changed that ,and when I found God I lost my
fears.I hope every one in the world finds God at some point in life,its a wonderfull thing.

[BillsCAfan]

When I went into the Army, I was a non beliver...I thought theological views
and religion were a joke.Fear changed that ,and when I found God I lost my
fears.I hope every one in the world finds God at some point in life,its a wonderfull thing.


IMO, religion has always been a safety blanket for people who need that supernatural force for comfort in times of hardship.


Thats my point. A majority of converts usually find God in times of hardship, cuz it's easier to believe in something more in times of pain, anguish and fear.

I have also wondered about times when pro athelets thank god for their win or triumph, does it mean that God wanted the other team to lose?

Buffalo Bills are on God's bad side.

[nehemiah]

if you're thinking about religion... you're missing the point. and God hates people like that.

[Gibby]

See? He's starting to get cheesed off now.

But deep down he knows Jesus never demanded people believe in him as their saviour to achieve salvation.

He only said people need to act like him.

The problem for most people is believing in Jesus is much easier than acting like Jesus.

How am I starting to be cheesed off? I think you are a good poster, but you are wrong on this one.

[shiva2999]

How am I starting to be cheesed off? I think you are a good poster, but you are wrong on this one.

Don't make me quote scripture at you.

[shiva2999]

if you're thinking about religion... you're missing the point. and God hates people like that.

God could never hate any of his children.

[jimmifli]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OCFHJ2eCa1k"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OCFHJ2eCa1k" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[jimmifli]

Paulism?

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/alqD4enyAF8"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/alqD4enyAF8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[uppy]

Thats my point. A majority of converts usually find God in times of hardship, cuz it's easier to believe in something more in times of pain, anguish and fear.

I have also wondered about times when pro athelets thank god for their win or triumph, does it mean that God wanted the other team to lose?

Buffalo Bills are on God's bad side.


(A majority of converts usually find God in times of hardship)

I think thats true too,and I thank God for that time every day.

[sukie]

Awesome.

[Meridius]

Like I saw on a bumper sticker: It not Jesus that I don't mind, its his fanclub that I can't stand.

I don't know if Jesus was real, or not. But I respect what he was supposed to represent.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

When I served as an alter boy, the wouldn't let me wear my doo rag.

Don't a priest wanna let a playa keep his braids tight?

[anEinherjer]

Religion has never made sense to me.

IMO, religion has always been a safety blanket for people who need that supernatural force for comfort in times of hardship.

I've studies many religions, and it's not just Christianity.

I can't bring myself to "buy" it.

I agree with this 100%. And I blame reading Carl Sagan when I was 12 for starting down my path (...to hell, LOL).

www.secularhumanism.org

Religion (or as phantom wrote, even more self-centered, "the teachings of Christ") is not the only way to a decent life, people.

[Ru]

I blame reason, common sense, and critical thought. And I blame the George Carlin stand up shows that I watched with my grandfather at an early age for articulating those thoughts and making me realize it is okay to not "buy into" the grand fable.

[TRIPLE P]

The problem for most people is believing in Jesus is much easier than acting like Jesus.


+1000

[TRIPLE P]

(A majority of converts usually find God in times of hardship)

I think thats true too,and I thank God for that time every day.


So you didn't believe in God until you wanted something from him....?

[ICRockets]

I've seen too much bullshit in Christianity to still be attracted to it.

From 1st grade to 6th grade, my parents made me go to some religion class at our church- we grew up Catholic- once a week. Sometimes it was fine, no big deal, but other times it just got so stupid. And extremely repetitive. How many years can you be taught that Jesus was cool- for the same exact reasons every year- before you start to question the crap? So in 6th grade, the one thing that was different was that in the first class, the "teacher" handed out index cards and asked us to write one question we had about Catholicism, and he would answer it at some point over the course of the 12-week program. Most people wrote stupid shit like "Why did Judas betray Jesus?" and "Why do people call Jesus God AND the Son of God?" whereas I wrote a question I'd wanted the answer to for over a year- "If God is omnipotent, why do we have to go to one central place to worship him?" Mine was the only question not addressed throughout the class.

That was strike one. After that, my parents made me go through Confirmation, despite my constant reminders that I in no way wished to be Confirmed. Fortunately, once that was over, we started going to church much, much less frequently. I was able to tell myself I am no longer a Catholic, and I still hold to that to this day.

In 9th grade, my best friend started going to this Teen Thing every Friday night. The next year, he convinced me to check it out. So I did. Started out awesome, they had a bunch of things for high schoolers to do on Friday nights to just hang out with other teenagers. The problem is that it ended very week with a sermon geared towards teenagers. They locked you in the church and preached. And you can probably imagine the type of shit they tried to feed kids to get them to be "saved"- oh, yeah, by the way...Baptist church. WTF. So for a little while it seemed cool, and at one point I said I was saved, but that's when I started seeing the bullshit for what it was. These guys belonged to Phantom's 1st group of Christians, 100%.. Dyed-in-the-wool fearmongers, all of them. And it was disgusting. I left and never looked back. Strike Two.

After that, I found another teen group that was the exact opposite of this baptist group. The problem with them, quite simply, was that they were way, way, way too happy-go-lucky about how amazing God was. Having come from a place where you heard about how you were going to Hell if you weren't saved, and all the fire-and-brimstone shit, all this 'hooray God is awesome let's sing songs' stuff rang false. Another problem I had with them is they tried to make EVERYTHING about God. Even most of the songs they sang had to have an ambiguous meaning that they could twist into some sort of religious praise- for example, Vertical Horizon's "Everything You Want". The added emphasis on "He's everything you want; He's everything you need" was just lame and hackneyed. My third attempt to find a group who could praise God without getting hung up on the details failed. Strike Three.

Since then I've run into more bullshit, but that's all political stuff that you're all equally aware of. Wow, that was sorta long, sorry.

[Meathead]

two words: exclusive monotheism - aka mine is the one and only true god

it is the scourge that man has injected into many great religions. it causes cascading failures in the logic structure of the thought system the masters have tried to share with us and causes the entire thing to break down

it unfortunately is also the most common belief system among christians and muslims and is at the root of virtually all hostilities, whether physical or spiritual, between religions

reject exclusive monotheism because it is inferior and destructive

but dont throw the baby out with the bathwater

[Gibby]

Like I saw on a bumper sticker: It not Jesus that I don't mind, its his fanclub that I can't stand.

I don't know if Jesus was real, or not. But I respect what he was supposed to represent.

Well stated, there are many in the church who do so much to alienate people from the message of Christ and in fact I agree with something my pastor said which is "the biggest reason people don't believe in Christ and his love is the church"

[Gibby]

I've seen too much bullshit in Christianity to still be attracted to it.

From 1st grade to 6th grade, my parents made me go to some religion class at our church- we grew up Catholic- once a week. Sometimes it was fine, no big deal, but other times it just got so stupid. And extremely repetitive. How many years can you be taught that Jesus was cool- for the same exact reasons every year- before you start to question the crap? So in 6th grade, the one thing that was different was that in the first class, the "teacher" handed out index cards and asked us to write one question we had about Catholicism, and he would answer it at some point over the course of the 12-week program. Most people wrote stupid shit like "Why did Judas betray Jesus?" and "Why do people call Jesus God AND the Son of God?" whereas I wrote a question I'd wanted the answer to for over a year- "If God is omnipotent, why do we have to go to one central place to worship him?" Mine was the only question not addressed throughout the class.

That was strike one. After that, my parents made me go through Confirmation, despite my constant reminders that I in no way wished to be Confirmed. Fortunately, once that was over, we started going to church much, much less frequently. I was able to tell myself I am no longer a Catholic, and I still hold to that to this day.

In 9th grade, my best friend started going to this Teen Thing every Friday night. The next year, he convinced me to check it out. So I did. Started out awesome, they had a bunch of things for high schoolers to do on Friday nights to just hang out with other teenagers. The problem is that it ended very week with a sermon geared towards teenagers. They locked you in the church and preached. And you can probably imagine the type of shit they tried to feed kids to get them to be "saved"- oh, yeah, by the way...Baptist church. WTF. So for a little while it seemed cool, and at one point I said I was saved, but that's when I started seeing the bullshit for what it was. These guys belonged to Phantom's 1st group of Christians, 100%.. Dyed-in-the-wool fearmongers, all of them. And it was disgusting. I left and never looked back. Strike Two.

After that, I found another teen group that was the exact opposite of this baptist group. The problem with them, quite simply, was that they were way, way, way too happy-go-lucky about how amazing God was. Having come from a place where you heard about how you were going to Hell if you weren't saved, and all the fire-and-brimstone shit, all this 'hooray God is awesome let's sing songs' stuff rang false. Another problem I had with them is they tried to make EVERYTHING about God. Even most of the songs they sang had to have an ambiguous meaning that they could twist into some sort of religious praise- for example, Vertical Horizon's "Everything You Want". The added emphasis on "He's everything you want; He's everything you need" was just lame and hackneyed. My third attempt to find a group who could praise God without getting hung up on the details failed. Strike Three.

Since then I've run into more bullshit, but that's all political stuff that you're all equally aware of. Wow, that was sorta long, sorry.

thanks for sharing that, in fact I suspect that that is why many leave the church. I myself still believe in Christ and will draw ire from some but I believe he is who he said he is and what he says. However, I am sort of burned out by the church. So thanks for your story, in fact it is rather similar to mine.

[sukie]

Correct me if I'm wrong... Wasn't this a question to NON christians?

[uppy]

[QUOTE=WXP]So you didn't believe in God until you wanted something from him....?[/QUOTE

Thats how it started ...now I belive in Him and don't want a thing,however my faith gives me some
peace in life

[Gibby]

Correct me if I'm wrong... Wasn't this a question to NON christians?

yes, but since I wrote the thread I can take certain liberties. :D