7 trains bombed in India

[CoachC.]

Explosions struck when commuter ‘trains were most crowded,’ official says

BREAKING NEWS
MSNBC News Services

MUMBAI, India - Seven explosions hit Mumbai’s commuter rail network during rush hour Tuesday evening, ripping apart train compartments and reportedly killing at least 40 people, officials and Indian media said.

“The blasts happened when the trains were most crowded,” said D.K Shankaran, chief secretary of the state of Maharashtra, of which Mumbai is the capital said.

There was chaos throughout the crowded rail network following the explosions, and authorities struggled to determine how many people had been killed and injured.

Television images showed injured victims sprawled on train tracks, frantically dialing their cell phones. Some of the injured were being carried away from the crash site.

The force of the blasts ripped doors and windows off carriages, and luggage and debris were strewn about.

Pranay Prabhakar, the spokesman for the Western Railway, confirmed that seven blasts had taken place. He said all trains had been suspended, and he appealed to the public to stay away from the city's train stations.


more.....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10958641/

[г]

India's the 'big prize' for the oil & natural gas interests. With their rapidly developing economy, they need fuel for their electricty generating plants & there's many big-money interests falling over each other to build pipelines and LNG terminals to meet increasing demand.

Watch for India to be at the centre of geopolitics in the years to come. Not so much as a player, but more as a huge end-user/market that will warrant protection. Whether the protector will be the US, Russia or China is the question.

[markythebill]

Notice how few people seem to care when this sort of thing happens in India? London, New York, Paris etc. and people discuss it and lap it up. No one cares about India because the people are not white. People see them as not quite human, not quite civilised, so it means less when they die. The world can be a terrible place at times.

The victims will not be honoured with a minute's silence, but I for one will take time out to think about them.

[г]

Psssst. This is America. Brown people don't count.

[Stealth01]

The two groups responsible for this are loosely aligned with al-Qa'ida, but mostly they want the disputed region of Kashmir turned back over to Muslims.

And D3, try not to be so incredibly prejudicial. Not all Americans feel that "brown people" don't count. Some of us care a great deal more than you know. Your hate-America bias is showing again.

[г]

America is da bomb. I just hate the *******s running it at the current time (as do a lot of Americans).

Marky and I can at least be objective about the prevalent racisim in your country, calling a spade a spade, so to speak.

[shiva2999]

The two groups responsible for this are loosely aligned with al-Qa'ida, but mostly they want the disputed region of Kashmir turned back over to Muslims.

Link?

[Stealth01]

No, you and Marky can be biased about it because you're taking your info from the vocal minority that shows up on TV and in the press.

And Shiva--CNN mentions Lashkar e-Tayyiba an Jayyish-e-Mohammed as the two groups MOST LIKELY responsible. Both groups are Kashmiri separatists that have loose links to Al-Qa'ida, mostly just "we're both Islamic radicals" kinds of thing. I am unaware of any operational or logistical relationships between them.

[г]

No, you and Marky can be biased about it because you're taking your info from the vocal minority that shows up on TV and in the press.


Not at all. Marky's (very correct point) was that there's not much reaction here, because the people involved weren't white.

I agree with Marky. If today's India bombings happened in NYC, London or Berlin, there would be multiple threads about this with multiple sympathetic posts.

Why's that ? Prevalent racism and navel-gazing.

[shiva2999]

And Shiva--CNN mentions Lashkar e-Tayyiba an Jayyish-e-Mohammed as the two groups MOST LIKELY responsible. Both groups are Kashmiri separatists that have loose links to Al-Qa'ida, mostly just "we're both Islamic radicals" kinds of thing. I am unaware of any operational or logistical relationships between them.

Yeah, I looked on google and these are the groups the authorites are suggesting may be responsible.

You know me. I'm suspicious of "co-ordinated" terror attacks with a convenient shadowy group as fall guys.

[г]

Oh and I forgot...tons of denial, too.

[nehemiah]

...

[Stealth01]

Yeah, I looked on google and these are the groups the authorites are suggesting may be responsible.

You know me. I'm suspicious of "co-ordinated" terror attacks with a convenient shadowy group as fall guys.

Yeah, that damn Kashmir dispute's been going on for awhile, and those two groups have been at the center of it.

[shiva2999]

Yeah, that damn Kashmir dispute's been going on for awhile, and those two groups have been at the center of it.

That still doesn't mean they did it.

Remember, terror is public relations. I see ZERO benefit for people fighting over Kashmir to commit an atrocity like this.

This is like the Bologna bombings and the Madrid bombings and the London bombings.

All cowardly and cynical actions which did nothing but move people in the direction of the powers that be.

[JLB]

So far at least nobody is taking credit is that still the case?

[Stealth01]

That still doesn't mean they did it.

Remember, terror is public relations. I see ZERO benefit for people fighting over Kashmir to commit an atrocity like this.

This is like the Bologna bombings and the Madrid bombings and the London bombings.

All cowardly and cynical actions which did nothing but move people in the direction of the powers that be.

Well, I disagree with you, but that's nothing unusual. For some reason, there are still groups out there that think this kind of thing will get them what they want. Kasmiri groups are among them.

[shiva2999]

BBC article on Lashkar e-Tayyiba

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3181925.stm

Profile: Lashkar-e-Toiba

Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Toiba (Soldiers of the Pure) is one of the most feared groups fighting against Indian control in Kashmir.

Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf banned Lashkar-e-Toiba, along with four other Islamic groups, in January 2002 amid pressure that followed the 11 September attacks in the US.

Until then Lashkar, with its reputation for being purely focused on fighting India in Kashmir, was able to operate openly inside Pakistan, raising funds and recruiting members.

Almost every shop in the main bazaar of every town, large or small, in Pakistan had a Lashkar collection box to raise funds for the struggle in Kashmir.

Laskhar had no involvement in sectarian attacks in Pakistan and its leaders were often critical of other militant groups operating in Kashmir and Afghanistan who also took part in the sectarian Sunni-Shia bloodshed within Pakistan.

...and...

Until its ban in 2002, Lashkar had never been shy of accepting responsibility for most of the armed attacks against Indian military targets.

However, it always denied killing civilians, maintaining that it was against the organisation's religious belief.

And it strongly rejected the Indian claim of its involvement in the attack on the parliament in Delhi.

...more...

[shiva2999]

The other guys...

http://www.saag.org/papers4/paper332.html

In the famous intercepted telephone conversation between Musharraf, then in Beijing, and Aziz, then Chief of the General Staff (CGS) in the GHQ in Rawalpindi, released by New Delhi in June,1999, Aziz could be heard reassuring Musharraf:" Sir, the scruff of their (Army of Islam's) neck is in our hands," thus indicating that this Army was totally under the control of Pakistan's Army of State.

[Stealth01]

Alternatively, from GlobalSecurity.org on LT:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/lt.htm

And from FAS.org on JEM:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/jem.htm

[Stealth01]

So Shiva--your take on this is that the US government (Pres Bush), acting through Musharraf, ordered either LT or JEM to conduct these attacks in order to inculcate fear and drive people toward the Bush Admin's position in the war on terror? Does that about sum it up?

[shiva2999]

So Shiva--your take on this is that the US government (Pres Bush), acting through Musharraf, ordered either LT or JEM to conduct these attacks in order to inculcate fear and drive people toward the Bush Admin's position in the war on terror? Does that about sum it up?

No, I haven't blamed it on Bush either.

The Indian military is quite capable of pulling this off all by themselves.

It's in India's interests to make these guys look bad.

If world opinion holds these guys responsible, India has a ready made excuse for making a move in Kashmir.

The fact that this puts pressure on Musharref, a Bushco ally, would also lead me to believe this was India stealing from Bushco's playbook.

[shiva2999]

Alternatively, from GlobalSecurity.org on LT:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/lt.htm

And from FAS.org on JEM:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/jem.htm

GlobalSecurity hit me with two popups, so **** them, we know where they're coming from.

And FAS.org has this guy at the top of the page...

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/spy3.gif

[markythebill]

No, you and Marky can be biased about it because you're taking your info from the vocal minority that shows up on TV and in the press.


I wasn't even referring to this board or America. I was on about everywhere. The news over here has mentioned it a little, but you hear no one discussing it in the street, there are not silences to remember the dead, no praying sessions, no collection tins rattling on the corner of streets. Nothing.

I just find it funny that when this sort of thing happens in Madrid, New York or London, it is the hot topic, but somewhere in India, it means less. It isn't a distance thing either. How many people really know a lot about the German culture, or Spain, or France. We're fed stereotypes and the only way to really understand a place is to research deeply or, ideally, visit the place, and even then it's best to go to the non-tourist areas, because the popular places with tourists just perpetuate the stereotypes.

So because so few people really understand anything about India, they just see them all as people who are a little primative, not as modern as us, not as civilised. They have children by the dozen, are over populated, so naturally a disaster such as this means less. That's the impression I get when this sort of thing happens. Is it racism? Probably not, but people do think the people there are not as civilised, not as 'human' as themselves.

[WhiteRabbit]

Well this crap is hitting way close to home for me. First in the 9/11 stuff, my sister was one of the doctors on scene when the buildings collapsed. I still have family in India who travel this route often, and our family Priest (Guru) as well.

Good news is everyone I know is okay, bad news is not everyone was okay :(

I was talking to our Guru earlier today, and the comments among the locals is a conspiracy theory with Musharraff is behind it. A lot of locals in India believe that Musharraff is just playing nice on the face because he wants to be on the good side of the U.S. -- but on the other hand he is the reason US cannot find Bin Laden -- Musharraff is keeping Laden one step ahead. That's what I hear, and I really don't trust Musharraff anyways, he took over the leadership of Pakistan in a militaristic way -- not very "democratic."

I dislike shiva's comment about the Indian army being able to do this themselves. What good would it do India to do this to their own people, it makes no sense man. India has acted in ethical ways many times though out history, and your comment has no justification. Just in WWII -- the Indian army did a whole lot that never gets recognized -- like having the largest all volunteer army of 2.5 million -- more than any other nation. Here's some info about that -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_during_World_War_II. Even in the last couple decades India has held off Pakistan, with India having "inferior" weapons. Pakistan's support of the west gives them better technology, but they cannot do much with it. Anyone remember when the U.S. sold Pakistan F-16's -- then they offered India F-18's, but India has gone to Russian, French, Chinese and Swiss for equipment as well.

I dunno, it just seems that India gets underestimated a lot, but the country is resilient and not as dependent as a lot of people think.

[WhiteRabbit]

I agree with Marky. If today's India bombings happened in NYC, London or Berlin, there would be multiple threads about this with multiple sympathetic posts.

Why's that ? Prevalent racism and navel-gazing.

Strangely enough, this is the reason I poked into PRS today, I wanted to see how much people would be talking about what happened. It is pretty disappointing to see, but there's nothing anyone can do. Facts are facts, and this is just the way things are, unfortunately.

[shiva2999]

As far as I know, there have been no claims of responsibility and nothing to implicate anyone.

When I was in Madras I stood on the spot where the Tamil Tigers blew up Rajiv Ghandi.

[shiva2999]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-5945776,00.html

Militants deny India train bombings
Press Association
Wednesday July 12, 2006 9:18 AM

Indian investigators are combing through the wreckage of rail carriages ripped apart by bombs that killed 190 people and wounded hundreds during Mumbai's evening rush hour.

As Mumbai's 16 million people struggled to regain their footing suspicion for the blasts fell on Kashmiri militants who have in the past carried out near-simultaneous attacks on Indian cities, including bombings last year at three markets in New Delhi that killed 59 people.

But two of the main Islamic militant groups in the Himalayan region - Lashkar-e-Tayyaba and Hezb-ul-Mujahedeen - said in separate statements that they had nothing to do with the Mumbai bombings, or a series of grenade attacks in Kashmir on Tuesday that killed eight people.

...more...

[WhiteRabbit]

As far as I know, there have been no claims of responsibility and nothing to implicate anyone.

Nope, nothing official at all. The time it's taking to link some one to it also contradicts the gov't/militaty "setting it up," if they did set it up -- they would've already declared some one responsible, right?

[shiva2999]

Nope, nothing official at all. The time it's taking to link some one to it also contradicts the gov't/militaty "setting it up," if they did set it up -- they would've already declared some one responsible, right?

They already did. Just not officially.

Cui bono? Who benefits?

[WhiteRabbit]

Cui bono?

So are you tagging some one as a criminal here? Or are you really asking? These things don't come across very clear all the time over message boards.

[shiva2999]

So are you tagging some one as a criminal here?

Of course someone's a criminal. The question is who.

The first things homicide cops ask themselves when presented with an unexplained murder is "Motive, means and opportunity".

For the various different terrorist groups the military wants to finger, the answer for each is questionable.

But for Indian military/intelligence only motive is questionable. Of course they have the means and the opportunity.

So then consider the motive.

What could Indian military/intelligence have to gain by bombing it's own people?

[SpikedLemonade]

What could Indian military/intelligence have to gain by bombing it's own people?

Plenty.

It gives them the excuse to move on Kashmir.

[shiva2999]

Plenty.

It gives them the excuse to move on Kashmir.

Exactly. See post 21.

[WhiteRabbit]

What could Indian military/intelligence have to gain by bombing it's own people?

Nothing. They wouldn't do it, just like U.S. didn't do it for 9/11.

Sorry, not buying it man. Say I have tunnel vision, brain washed, whatever, but there's no way these conspiracy theories are valid, sorry.

[SpikedLemonade]

Exactly. See post 21.

I couldn't be bothered initially, but now I see we think the same on this issue.

Too bad you are an abortion loving old Jew or I would give you a big hug right now.

[shiva2999]

Nothing. They wouldn't do it, just like U.S. didn't do it for 9/11.

Sorry, not buying it man. Say I have tunnel vision, brain washed, whatever, but there's no way these conspiracy theories are valid, sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata


With its vast philosophical depth and sheer magnitude, a consummate embodiment of the ethos of not only India but of Hinduism and Vedic tradition, the Mahabharata's scope and grandeur is best summarized by one quotation from the beginning of its first parva (section): "What is found here, may be found elsewhere. What is not found here, will not be found elsewhere."

In its scope, the Mahabharata is more than simply a story of kings and princes, sages and wisemen, demons and gods; its author, Vyasa, says that one of its aims is elucidating the four goals of life: kama (pleasure), artha (wealth), dharma (duty) and moksha (liberation). The story culminates in moksha, believed by many Hindus to be the ultimate goal of human beings.



Moksha is the goal.

Kama, artha and dharma aren't enough.

[WhiteRabbit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata


With its vast philosophical depth and sheer magnitude, a consummate embodiment of the ethos of not only India but of Hinduism and Vedic tradition, the Mahabharata's scope and grandeur is best summarized by one quotation from the beginning of its first parva (section): "What is found here, may be found elsewhere. What is not found here, will not be found elsewhere."

In its scope, the Mahabharata is more than simply a story of kings and princes, sages and wisemen, demons and gods; its author, Vyasa, says that one of its aims is elucidating the four goals of life: kama (pleasure), artha (wealth), dharma (duty) and moksha (liberation). The story culminates in moksha, believed by many Hindus to be the ultimate goal of human beings.

Moksha is the goal.

Kama, artha and dharma aren't enough.

Yes, but deeper in Mahabharata, the height of the teachings is when Krishna talks to Arjun directly before the war. The war is called "Dharma Yud" -- "war of duty." Lord Krishna explains that Dharma is held higher than Kama, Artha and Moksha. The main goal in one's life is to align one's self with Dharma, and this Dharma should be upholding the truth. Arjun argues that he cannot fight against his cousins, teachers, uncles ... but Krishna explains that his Dharma is to uphold truth, and if you're not fighting for truth, then you defend lies. This conversation is the basis of the Bhagavad Gita. Two aspects are highlighted -- Karma (to do or actions that an individual has done) and Dharma (duty). The ultimate goal is for one's Kharma and Dharma to be aligned with truth.

[shiva2999]

Yes, but deeper in Mahabharata, the height of the teachings is when Krishna talks to Arjun directly before the war. The war is called "Dharma Yud" -- "war of duty." Lord Krishna explains that Dharma is held higher than Kama, Artha and Moksha. The main goal in one's life is to align one's self with Dharma, and this Dharma should be upholding the truth. Arjun argues that he cannot fight against his cousins, teachers, uncles ... but Krishna explains that his Dharma is to uphold truth, and if you're not fighting for truth, then you defend lies. This conversation is the basis of the Bhagavad Gita. Two aspects are highlighted -- Karma (to do or actions that an individual has done) and Dharma (duty). The ultimate goal is for one's Kharma and Dharma to be aligned with truth.

And what did Krishna get for his rigid dogmatism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata

Beholding the carnage, the noble mother of the Kauravas, Gandhari who had lost all her sons, curses Krishna to be a witness to a similar annihilation of his family, for though divine and capable of stopping the war, he had not done so. Krishna who had incarnated precisely to destroy the wicked kings accepts the curse, which bears fruit 36 years later. He then departs from the world and the Pandavas who had ruled righteously all along, now tired, decide to renounce everything. Clad in skins and rags they retire to the Himalayas and ascend the peaks. One by one they get exhausted, die and ascend to heaven. Only the virtuous Yudhisthira who had tried everything to prevent the carnage and never very happy with his kingship afterwards, ascends to the heaven in his physical body.

[SpikedLemonade]

Way too deep on a hot Friday Afternoon.

I'm trying to get drunk here and you two are sobering me up.

[WhiteRabbit]

Beholding the carnage, the noble mother of the Kauravas, Gandhari who had lost all her sons, curses Krishna to be a witness to a similar annihilation of his family, for though divine and capable of stopping the war, he had not done so. Krishna who had incarnated precisely to destroy the wicked kings accepts the curse, which bears fruit 36 years later. He then departs from the world and the Pandavas who had ruled righteously all along, now tired, decide to renounce everything. Clad in skins and rags they retire to the Himalayas and ascend the peaks. One by one they get exhausted, die and ascend to heaven. Only the virtuous Yudhisthira who had tried everything to prevent the carnage and never very happy with his kingship afterwards, ascends to the heaven in his physical body.

I will respond to this, but it will take time and some explaining. Gimme some time to get my thoughts straight. There's so much irony and misunderstanding in Mahabharata, and the dilemmas are great discussion. I will bring up a couple.

[shiva2999]

Take your time, it's interesting to have a discussion about what Hinduism can teach us for a change.

Like the Bible, the Vedas are a wealth of metaphor.

IMO Moksha = Understanding how things really work, ie. wisdom.