PDA

View Full Version : The Motives of Scientists


jimmifli
July 11th, 2006, 12:28:13 AM
Science and technology provide the most important examples of surrogate activities. Some scientists claim that they are motivated by "curiosity," that notion is simply absurd. Most scientists work on highly specialized problem that are not the object of any normal curiosity. For example, is an astronomer, a mathematician or an entomologist curious about the properties of isopropyltrimethylmethane? Of course not. Only a chemist is curious about such a thing, and he is curious about it only because chemistry is his surrogate activity. Is the chemist curious about the appropriate classification of a new species of beetle? No. That question is of interest only to the entomologist, and he is interested in it only because entomology is his surrogate activity. If the chemist and the entomologist had to exert themselves seriously to obtain the physical necessities, and if that effort exercised their abilities in an interesting way but in some nonscientific pursuit, then they couldn't giver a damn about isopropyltrimethylmethane or the classification of beetles. Suppose that lack of funds for postgraduate education had led the chemist to become an insurance broker instead of a chemist. In that case he would have been very interested in insurance matters but would have cared nothing about isopropyltrimethylmethane. In any case it is not normal to put into the satisfaction of mere curiosity the amount of time and effort that scientists put into their work. The "curiosity" explanation for the scientists' motive just doesn't stand up.

The "benefit of humanity" explanation doesn't work any better. Some scientific work has no conceivable relation to the welfare of the human race - most of archeology or comparative linguistics for example. Some other areas of science present obviously dangerous possibilities. Yet scientists in these areas are just as enthusiastic about their work as those who develop vaccines or study air pollution. Consider the case of Dr. Edward Teller, who had an obvious emotional involvement in promoting nuclear power plants. Did this involvement stem from a desire to benefit humanity? If so, then why didn't Dr. Teller get emotional about other "humanitarian" causes? If he was such a humanitarian then why did he help to develop the H-bomb? As with many other scientific achievements, it is very much open to question whether nuclear power plants actually do benefit humanity. Does the cheap electricity outweigh the accumulating waste and risk of accidents? Dr. Teller saw only one side of the question. Clearly his emotional involvement with nuclear power arose not from a desire to "benefit humanity" but from a personal fulfillment he got from his work and from seeing it put to practical use.

The same is true of scientists generally. With possible rare exceptions, their motive is neither curiosity nor a desire to benefit humanity but the need to go through the power process: to have a goal (a scientific problem to solve), to make an effort (research) and to attain the goal (solution of the problem.) Science is a surrogate activity because scientists work mainly for the fulfillment they get out of the work itself.

Of course, it's not that simple. Other motives do play a role for many scientists. Money and status for example. Some scientists may be persons of the type who have an insatiable drive for status and this may provide much of the motivation for their work. No doubt the majority of scientists, like the majority of the general population, are more or less susceptible to advertising and marketing techniques and need money to satisfy their craving for goods and services. Thus science is not a PURE surrogate activity. But it is in large part a surrogate activity.

Also, science and technology constitute a mass power movement, and many scientists gratify their need for power through identification with this mass movement.

Thus science marches on blindly, without regard to the real welfare of the human race or to any other standard, obedient only to the psychological needs of the scientists and of the government officials and corporation executives who provide the funds for research.


Do you agree with the above? If we can't trust scientists on global warming, can we trust any science?

twosheds
July 11th, 2006, 4:50:26 AM
What is this? It sounds like a high school research paper. Curiosity is not the only thing that drives a scientist, but without a good deal of curiosity you'll have a tough time being a researcher.

BTW, I am a computer scientist, but I am curious about organic chemistry, as well as a lot of other things.

K-Gun
July 11th, 2006, 4:55:14 AM
I have a better question:

Why should we trust that nature has an invarient structure at its foundation?

If nature's nature can change, than why call scientfic test results FACT?

Why not be pragmatists, its a little arrogant any other way.

In fact, maybe our scientific FACTS, are no more than rational stories we formulate, and those formulas can never really match up with the natural forces at work in the world. Our charts aren't the things in the world themselves afterall.

35Pete
July 11th, 2006, 7:49:44 AM
I have a better question:

Why should we trust that nature has an invarient structure at its foundation?

If nature's nature can change, than why call scientfic test results FACT?

Why not be pragmatists, its a little arrogant any other way.

In fact, maybe our scientific FACTS, are no more than rational stories we formulate, and those formulas can never really match up with the natural forces at work in the world. Our charts aren't the things in the world themselves afterall.Change in nature is natural. But not all of nature changes. That which does can still be effectively quantified to some degree for many events. They are called stochastic processes and scientists have developed tools to deal with this uncertainty. The next greatest leap is into what is called Chaos Theory. It is still in the fetal stage and could be used to explain or even predict atmospheric phenomema, human physical traits, the future leaf pattern of a tree that at present is nothing more than a mere acorn. But we have not reached that milestone. And not in our lifetimes.

We are not as advanced as many of the ignorant romance that we are.

SpikedLemonade
July 11th, 2006, 8:55:24 AM
Do you agree with the above? If we can't trust scientists on global warming, can we trust any science?

Forget scientists.

Simply put your trust in Al Gore.

That means you too Florida.

SpikedLemonade
July 11th, 2006, 8:57:09 AM
We are not as advanced as many of the ignorant romance that we are.

Pete, that would make the chorus or title of a nice love song wouldn't it?:rolleyes2

I'm thinking Michael Bolton.:n4clapping:

anEinherjer
July 11th, 2006, 9:15:38 AM
I like to know where this pablum came from.

jimmifli
July 11th, 2006, 9:31:09 AM
We are not as advanced as many of the ignorant romance that we are.

Thus science marches on blindly, without regard to the real welfare of the human race or to any other standard, obedient only to the psychological needs of the scientists and of the government officials and corporation executives who provide the funds for research.

So do you agree with this?

35Pete
July 11th, 2006, 9:39:45 AM
So do you agree with this?
Yes, to a degree I do. Scientists ultimately look after their best interests and this often means funding and hence winning bread for their families. You think I design digital circuits for the good of humanity.

jimmifli
July 11th, 2006, 9:47:02 AM
What is this? It sounds like a high school research paper.

It's from:
Industrial Society and Its Future otherwise known as the Unabomber Manifesto.

Meathead
July 11th, 2006, 10:03:36 AM
i am even more ignorant than i romance that i am

nehemiah
July 11th, 2006, 10:21:50 AM
the motives of scientists are irrelevant.

there is a reason why scientific journals are double-blind. and getting rid of the motives is that reason.

if i find something is a REAL scientific journal - i read it with an open mind.

JLB
July 11th, 2006, 10:26:32 AM
i am even more ignorant than i romance that i am

Me to Meat.

twosheds
July 11th, 2006, 10:58:15 AM
It's from:
Industrial Society and Its Future otherwise known as the Unabomber Manifesto.

Interesting. It almost sounds normal. That's where the internet got us. :D

г
July 11th, 2006, 11:00:43 AM
It's natural to question the nature of nature.

Just don't fool with mother nature. She'll **** you up.

TRIPLE P
July 11th, 2006, 11:32:53 AM
Majick > Sighince

ArlieKoz13
July 11th, 2006, 7:05:15 PM
Isopropyltrimethylmethane does not even exist. As a chemistry major, it doesn't even make sense.

The writer should have looked up a true compound if he wanted to have any credibility at all.

35Pete
July 11th, 2006, 7:17:30 PM
Isopropyltrimethylmethane does not even exist. As a chemistry major, it doesn't even make sense.

The writer should have looked up a true compound if he wanted to have any credibility at all.
WTF?

Even trimethylmethane? What kind of nomenclature is that? That is three methyl groups "hanging off" a carbon atom with a proton to boot? It's been 20 years so I forget, but even that would be some kind of isobutane derivative, would it not?

ArlieKoz13
July 11th, 2006, 7:18:55 PM
It exists, but it's not IUPAC nomenclature. If you draw it out, which I just did being the loser that I am, it's actually 2,2-dimethyl-3-butane. So yes. It's just an awful name that they gave it.

35Pete
July 11th, 2006, 7:26:30 PM
It exists, but it's not IUPAC nomenclature. If you draw it out, which I just did being the loser that I am, it's actually 2,2-dimethyl-3-butane. So yes. It's just an awful name that they gave it.
Ohh I remember. The isopropyl chain, attached to a methane "root" (like a larger chain is attached to a smaller chain :puh:) would comprise 4 continous carbons in a chain. Hence the "butane" root, correct?

And the chemical DOES exist. I cook up a few pounds a week in my basement. I call it "Special K". LOL

ArlieKoz13
July 11th, 2006, 7:33:46 PM
Ding ding! You win. It's all coming back now, huh?

Special K, puh. It probably just smells bad.

jimmifli
July 11th, 2006, 8:18:02 PM
The writer should have looked up a true compound if he wanted to have any credibility at all.

The writer is the Unabomber, and Pete agreed with his view on science. Interesting, no?

RabidBillsFan
July 11th, 2006, 8:26:52 PM
The writer is the Unabomber, and Pete agreed with his view on science. Interesting, no?

That's not interesting because I could totally believe someone with a LOGICAL explanation for something WITHOUT sharing their other beliefs quite easily... I hate Israeli and Palestinian extremists, but I'm not going to jump on a plane and go over there and start spraying them with rounds!!!

Some of us have that natural block, and some do not.

K-Gun
July 11th, 2006, 8:27:16 PM
The writer is the Unabomber, and Pete agreed with his view on science. Interesting, no?

He had a lot of interesting points to make on science and society. He just voiced his opinion the wrong way.

anEinherjer
July 11th, 2006, 8:31:30 PM
Thus science marches on blindly, without regard to the real welfare of the human race or to any other standard

I find myself okay with this.

jimmifli
July 11th, 2006, 8:37:18 PM
the motives of scientists are irrelevant.

there is a reason why scientific journals are double-blind. and getting rid of the motives is that reason.


I think this quote is more accurate than Ted's.

jimmifli
July 11th, 2006, 8:41:30 PM
He had a lot of interesting points to make on science and society.

I find his argument against science to be hollow. His problem is really with how people use what is learned.

35Pete
July 11th, 2006, 8:49:18 PM
Ding ding! You win. It's all coming back now, huh?

Special K, puh. It probably just smells bad.
You know what I think is absolutely laughable? How pre-meds (overrrated intelligence LOL) think that Organic Chemistry is a "weedout" class. Ohhh, cry me a river. Take a shot at P-Chem (Physical chemistry) you whiny academic whimps. If required for medical school then 90% of you would become BK managers. LOL

Special K is a schedule I illegal drug. LOL

K-Gun
July 11th, 2006, 9:17:11 PM
I find his argument against science to be hollow. His problem is really with how people use what is learned.

In the next several decades we may face a crisis, perhaps the next evolutionary stage. Personally, I'm not willing to give my humanity up to the machine, but I may not have a choice.

ArlieKoz13
July 11th, 2006, 10:25:50 PM
You know what I think is absolutely laughable? How pre-meds (overrrated intelligence LOL) think that Organic Chemistry is a "weedout" class. Ohhh, cry me a river. Take a shot at P-Chem (Physical chemistry) you whiny academic whimps. If required for medical school then 90% of you would become BK managers. LOL

Special K is a schedule I illegal drug. LOL

I wanted to shoot myself last year during pchem. I made it out alive though. I am now the TA for the lab. Haha.

nehemiah
July 11th, 2006, 11:19:43 PM
the funniest part of this whole thread is that no one is surprised that pete agrees with the unabomber. we have all just gone along with our bizness.

and pete doesn't even try to disassociate from the crazy dude. he is posting about chemical nomenclature.

:guy: awesome.

JLB
July 11th, 2006, 11:28:44 PM
Unabomber bad but would you call him stupid?
Not an intelligent person?
Granted crazy but stupid and ignorant?
Terrible human being yes.
Got what he deserves yes.