"I'm an independant thinker. I make up my own mind!"

[shiva2999]

Do you? Do you really?

Do you think Public Relations is bullshit?

Can't fool you, you're too smart?

Anyway, I found this interesting little story about Edward Bernays, the father of modern Public Relations and personal inspiration to Joseph Goebbels and the brains behind bacon & eggs for breakfast.

BTW, this is no conspiracy theory.

There are people out there who want to tell you what to know and what to feel and what to think...

So they can sell you stuff. All kinds of stuff.

Guess what?

They think you're idiots.


http://www.bway.net/~drstu/chapter.html

Chapter 1
Visiting Edward Bernays

When I began the research for this book-attempting to discover the social and historical roots that would explain the limitless role of public relations in our world-one of my first stops along the way was a sojourn with Edward L. Bernays, a man who, beginning during the 1910s, became one of the most influential pioneers of American public relations; a person whose biography, though not widely known, left a deep mark on the configuration of our world.

Born in Vienna in 1891, Bernays was the double nephew of Sigmund Freud. (His mother was Freud's sister, his father was Freud's wife's brother.) His family background impressed him with the enormous power of ideas, and accustomed him to the privileges and creature comforts of bourgeois existence.

Bernays was also a far-sighted architect of modern propaganda techniques who, dramatically, from the early 1920s onward, helped to consolidate a fateful marriage between theories of mass psychology and schemes of corporate and political persuasion.

During the First World War, Bernays served as a foot soldier for the U. S. Committee on Public Information (CPI)-the vast American propaganda apparatus mobilized in 1917 to package, advertise and sell the war as one that would "Make the World Safe for Democracy." The CPI would become the mold in which marketing strategies for subsequent wars, on to the present, would be shaped.

In the twenties, Bernays fathered the link between corporate sales campaigns and popular social causes, when-while working for the American Tobacco Company-he persuaded women's rights marchers in New York City to hold up Lucky Strike cigarettes as symbolic "Torches of Freedom." In October of 1929, Bernays also originated the now familiar "global media event," when he dreamed up "Light's Golden Jubilee," a worldwide celebratory spectacle commemorating the fiftieth anniversary of the electric light bulb, sponsored-behind-the-scenes-by the General Electric Corporation.

While by birth an Austrian Jew, Bernays' work and vivid writings served as an inspiration for Dr. Joseph Goebbels, the notorious Nazi propaganda minister-or so public relations folklore records.

Bernays influence would continue to hold sway well into the post-World War II era. To put it simply, Edward Bernays' career-more than that of any other individual-roughed out what have become the strategies and practices of public relations in the United States.

I had encountered Bernays before. In the early 1970s, while writing a book on the social history of advertising-Captains of Consciousness-I had happened upon some of his writings-mostly from the 1920s. In the pages of Captains he fittingly looms as an eloquent and influential ideologue of an American consumer culture in formation.

...more...

[г]

One of the ladies I do volunteer work with is a retired ad exec who has worked at some major ad agencies in NYC, London and Toronto.

We've talked a lot about advertising concepts (my interests lie in mass communications) and one of the driving concepts of mass campaigns is that 80% of your audience are basically retarded.

[CoachC.]

Most people are idiots. They're swayed by public opinion and propoganda.

It's their own fault, though. Most people don't take the time or much less care (which is much, much worse) to examine other angles and sides of issues.

They just listen to the other idiots.

[shiva2999]

It was interesting how Straussian his attitudes were, and Bernays predates Strauss.

The "Dumb Jack" story was great.

[г]

A good example familiar to Canadians was the 'Ex says it all' beer campaigns.

What exactly is it saying, and who is saying it ?

[shiva2999]

Most people are idiots. They're swayed by public opinion and propoganda.

It's their own fault, though. Most people don't take the time or much less care (which is much, much worse) to examine other angles and sides of issues.

They just listen to the other idiots.


http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cohen1.html

How the War Party Sold the 1991 Bombing of Iraq to US
by Mitchel Cohen
December 30, 2002

"The U.S. has a new credibility. What we say goes."

- President George Bush,
NBC Nightly News, Feb. 2, 1991

In October, 1990, a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl, identified only as Nayirah, appeared in Washington before the House of Representatives' Human Rights Caucus. She testified that Iraqi soldiers who had invaded Kuwait on August 2nd tore hundreds of babies from hospital incubators and killed them.

Television flashed her testimony around the world. It electrified opposition to Iraq's president, Saddam Hussein, who was now portrayed by U.S. president George Bush not only as "the Butcher of Baghdad" but – so much for old friends – "a tyrant worse than Hitler."

Bush quoted Nayirah at every opportunity. Six times in one month he referred to "312 premature babies at Kuwait City's maternity hospital who died after Iraqi soldiers stole their incubators and left the infants on the floor,"(1) and of "babies pulled from incubators and scattered like firewood across the floor." Bush used Nayirah's testimony to lambaste Senate Democrats still supporting "only" sanctions against Iraq – the blockade of trade which alone would cause hundreds of thousands of Iraqis to die of hunger and disease – but who waffled on endorsing the policy Bush wanted to implement: outright bombardment. Republicans and pro-war Democrats used Nayirah's tale to hammer their fellow politicians into line behind Bush's war in the Persian Gulf.(2)

Nayirah, though, was no impartial eyewitness, a fact carefully concealed by her handlers. She was the daughter of one Saud Nasir Al-Sabah, Kuwait's ambassador to the United States. A few key Congressional leaders and reporters knew who Nayirah was, but none of them thought of sharing that minor detail with Congress, let alone the American people.

Everything Nayirah said, as it turned out, was a lie.

...and...

How did Nayirah first come to the attention of the Congressional Human Rights Caucus, which put her before the world's cameras? It was arranged by Hill & Knowlton, a public relations firm hired to rally the U.S. populace behind Bush's policy of going to war. And it worked!

Hill & Knowlton's yellow ribbon campaign to whip up support for "our" troops, which followed their orchestration of Nayirah's phony "incubator" testimony, was a public relations masterpiece. The claim that satellite photos revealed that Iraq had troops poised to strike Saudi Arabia was also fabricated by the PR firm. Hill & Knowlton was paid between $12 million (as reported two years later on "60 Minutes") and $20 million (as reported on "20/20") for "services rendered." The group fronting the money? Citizens for a Free Kuwait, a phony "human rights agency" set up and funded entirely by Kuwait's emirocracy to promote its interests in the U.S.

...more...

[г]

In the film Why We Fight, the retired NYC cop who lost his son in 9/11 was a great example of a former bomb-tard who actually used his brain to properly process the information in front of him.

When Bush admitted last year that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, he quickly realized how the public was manipulated.

[gilchristfan]

"I'm an independant thinker. I make up my own mind!"

Is this a trick, some type of psychological test?

Independent is one of the most misspelled words on the board, and I don't normally see you misspell anything.

Are you trying to demonstrate that even you can be influenced, even subconsciously, by others, or by sheer repitition?

Or maybe its just the Canadian-British spelling.

[г]

http://www.mcluhan.ca/images/content/mcluhan_fp.jpg

'The medium is the massage'

[shiva2999]

Independent is one of the most misspelled words on the board, and I don't normally see you misspell anything.

Are you trying to demonstrate that even you can be influenced, even subconsciously, by others, or by sheer repitition?

Rage against the machine.

[shiva2999]

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:N3fVFx-duOAJ:www.americanidealism.com/articles/karl-rove-and-the-spectre-of-freuds-nephew.html+edward+bernays&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=6

Karl Rove & the Spectre of Freud's Nephew
February 4th 2005

“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country… We are governed, our minds molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized…”

So opens Propaganda (1928), one of several strikingly frank analyses of western social psychology written by Edward Bernays. This nephew of Sigmund Freud founded the public relations industry in the United States.

...more...

[г]

"After three thousand years of explosion, by means of fragmentary and mechanical technologies, the Western world is imploding. During the mechanical ages we had extended our bodies in space. Today, after more than a century of electric technology, we have extended our central nervous system itself in a global embrace, abolishing both space and time as far as our planet is concerned. Rapidly, we approach the final phase of the extensions of man - the technological simulation of consciousness, when the creative process of knowing will be collectively and corporately extended to the whole of human society, much as we have already extended our senses and our nerves by the various media."

Marshall McLuhan - Understanding Media (1964)

[Crinoline]

I think what Shiva is trying to tell us, is that everyone here is retarded EXCEPT for him.

[gilchristfan]

Rage against the machine.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/84/RATM1.jpg/200px-RATM1.jpg

[г]

I think what Shiva is trying to tell us, is that everyone here is retarded EXCEPT for him.

"The poet, the artist, the sleuth, whoever sharpens our perception tends to antisocial; rarely 'well adjusted,' he cannot go along with currents and trends."

"... Their power to see environments as they really are."

The Medium is The Massage, Marshall McLuhan p 88

[TigerJ]

Didn't PT Barnum put this all a bit more succinctly. "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time."

[г]

Someone seems to be able to fool dumb-ass Republican voters all of the time...

[shiva2999]

Didn't PT Barnum put this all a bit more succinctly. "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time."

Uh, that's Lincoln Tiger.

Barnum is generally believed to have said "There's a sucker born every minute" although this is disputed.

What Barnum did say is "Every crowd has a silver lining."

[CoachC.]

"Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me."

It's an adage, although I'm not positive if it is specifically attributed to anyone.

[JLB]

Independent thinking is always important, even in team exercises. Independent thinkers strengthen a team because they understand that different backgrounds and perspectives bring different ideas and solutions. They are willing to share ideas that differ from those of the rest of the team and sometimes require explanations that force the team to force the team to give careful consideration to information. Independent thinkers must be careful not to question everything or they can impede progress. However, when something seems wrong, or they don’t understand something, or they see a better way of doing something, they must have the confidence to voice their opinion.

[K-Gun]

"Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me."

It's an adage, although I'm not positive if it is specifically attributed to anyone.

"There's a lot of talk about Iraq on our TV screens, and there should be, because we're trying to figure out how best to make the world a peaceful place. There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again. You've got to understand the nature of the regime we're dealing with. This is a man who has delayed, denied, deceived the world. For the sake of liberty and justice for all, the United Nations Security Council must act, must act in way to hold this regime to account, must not be fooled, must be relevant to keep the peace."

[jimmifli]

Independent? Please, not if Bush's speechalist can help it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6737873101935536384&q=bush+speechalist

[JLB]

Independent thinking is always important, even in team exercises. Independent thinkers strengthen a team because they understand that different backgrounds and perspectives bring different ideas and solutions. They are willing to share ideas that differ from those of the rest of the team and sometimes require explanations that force the team to force the team to give careful consideration to information. Independent thinkers must be careful not to question everything or they can impede progress. However, when something seems wrong, or they don’t understand something, or they see a better way of doing something, they must have the confidence to voice their opinion.


I like this it really explains it quite well.

Sorry to quote myself here but it was the best.

[jimmifli]

I like this it really explains it quite well.

Sorry to quote myself here but it was the best.
So you think independent thinking is good?

http://hypeiv.flatsoda.com/images/captain.jpg



The debate is about whether or not you are, or can be an independent thinker, I don't think anybody is arguing that it's a bad thing.

[JLB]

So you think independent thinking is good?

http://hypeiv.flatsoda.com/images/captain.jpg



The debate is about whether or not you are, or can be an independent thinker, I don't think anybody is arguing that it's a bad thing.

No it's ok I guess but it's more fun being lead around by the nose.

Just for a little while though.

:snoopdog:

[nehemiah]

Elevator! going up!
In the gleaming corridors of the 51st floor
The money can be made if you really want some more
Executive decision-a clinical precision
Jumping from the windows-filled with indecision

I get good advice from the advertising world
Treat me nice says the party girl
Koke adds life where there isnt any
So freeze, man, freeze

Its the pause that refreshes in the corridors of power
When top men need a top up long before the happy hour
Your snakeskin suit and your alligator boot
You wont need a launderette, you can send them to the vet!

I get my advice from the advertising world
Treat me nice says the party girl
Koke adds life where there isnt any
So freeze, man, freeze

Koka kola advertising and kokaine
Strolling down the broadway in the rain
Neon light sign says it
I read it in the paper-theyre crazy!
Suit your life, maybe so
In the white house-i know
All over berlin (theyve been doing it for years)
And in manhattan!

Coming through the door is a snub nose 44
What the barrel cant snort it can spatter on the floor
Your eyeballs feel like pinballs
And your tongue feels like a fish
Youre leaping from the windows-saying dont
Ayaiiiiirrrghhh! *@!!*@!!*!
Dont give me none of this!

I get good advice from the advertising world
Treat me nice says the party girl
Koke adds life where there isnt any
So freeze, man, freeze
Hit the deck!

[shiva2999]

Everyone considers themselves an independant thinker.

The most dogmatic are the one's who get the angriest when you don't agree they have open minds.

It's like "I've done ALL the research and I've come to the conclusion that the smartest thing is to believe what everyone else believes!?

:rofl:

[uppy]

Everyone considers themselves an independant thinker.

The most dogmatic are the one's who get the angriest when you don't agree they have open minds.

It's like "I've done ALL the research and I've come to the conclusion that the smartest thing is to believe what everyone else believes!?

:rofl:

not everyone considers themselves an independant thinker.

[ckg68]

Didn't PT Barnum put this all a bit more succinctly. "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time."

A lot of people have had this quote attributed to them.

Abraham Lincoln was also assumed to have said it.

[JLB]

Someone seems to be able to fool dumb-ass Republican voters all of the time...

Well you will always have guys like Alec Baldwin to hang your hat on.


Alec Baldwin 's Political Statements
Alec Baldwin's highest level of education is dropping out of George Washington University. Because of this education, Alec Baldwin felt qualified to make the following statements about politics:

Alex the Exterminator
"They voted on one article of impeachment already. And I come back from Africa to stained dresses and cigars and this and impeachment. I am thinking to myself, in other countries they are laughing at us 24 hours a day and I'm thinking to myself, if we were in other countries, we would all right now, all of us together, all of us together would go down to Washington and we would stone [conservative Congressman] Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we'd kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families. What is happening in this country? What is happening? UGHHH!

[г]

Who's Alec Baldwin ?

[shiva2999]

not everyone considers themselves an independant thinker.

What about you uppy?

Are you an independent thinker?

[JLB]

Who's Alec Baldwin ?


Your right who's Alec Baldwin your best post to date.:arizona: :arizona:

:rofl:

[shiva2999]

Who's Alec Baldwin ?

He's a FreeRepublic favorite...

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/352416-TeamAmerica_8.jpg

[г]

Ahhhh, OK. That's why I've never heard of him. Is he an actor or something ?

[shiva2999]

Ahhhh, OK. That's why I've never heard of him. Is he an actor or something ?

The oldest of the Baldwin brothers and a terrific actor who's made his fortune off his own talent and hard work.

The kind righties think should STFU.

Of course wretched actors like Reagan who made his fortune as a right-wing mouthpiece and Ahnuld who made his fortune off his muscles are fine Americans who's opinions are always welcome.

[г]

Yeah, I looked him up on ImDB & the only film I can remotely remember him in was Glengarry Glen Ross.

I guess I have heard of him after all.

[shiva2999]

Miami Blues is also a terrific movie...

http://alec.helenheart.com/images/miami3.jpg

[TigerJ]

Uh, that's Lincoln Tiger.

Barnum is generally believed to have said "There's a sucker born every minute" although this is disputed.

What Barnum did say is "Every crowd has a silver lining."

Really? All this time I've been misinformed.

[shiva2999]

Also nominated for an Academy Award for "The Cooler".

I believe he also played right-wing hero Jack Ryan in the first two Tom Clancy movies.

[35Pete]

Uh, that's Lincoln Tiger.

Barnum is generally believed to have said "There's a sucker born every minute" although this is disputed.

What Barnum did say is "Every crowd has a silver lining."
Didn't W.C Fields make the "sucker" quote?

[jimmifli]

Who's Alec Baldwin ?

His very best. Plus one of the best scenes in any movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCcKIkMp8Y&search=sales

[JLB]

Here's a few gems of his.

I like to keep a bottle of stimulant handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy.
W. C. Fields
I never drink water, fish **** in it.
W. C. Fields
I never drink water. I'm afraid it will become habit-forming.
W. C. Fields
I never drink water; that's the stuff that rusts pipes.
W. C. Fields
I never met a kid I liked.
W. C. Fields
I once spent a year in Philadelphia, I think it was on a Sunday.
W. C. Fields
I was in love with a beautiful blonde once, dear. She drove me to drink. That's the one thing I'm indebted to her for.
W. C. Fields
I'll be sober tomorrow, but you'll be crazy for the rest of your life.
W. C. Fields
In reply to an accusation of drunkenness
I've never struck a woman in my life, not even my own mother.
W. C. Fields
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then give up. There's no sense being a damn fool about it.


W. C. Fields

[shiva2999]

Didn't W.C Fields make the "sucker" quote?

Google is your friend Pete...

"A thing worth having is a thing worth cheating for." ~ W. C. Fields

[K-Gun]

Lippmann belittled what he saw as the nostrums of American democracy held so dear by so many in our country. “A false ideal of democracy can lead only to disillusionment and to meddlesome tyranny. If democracy cannot direct affairs, then a philosophy which expects it to direct them will encourage the people to attempt the impossible; they will fail, but that will interfere outrageously with the productive liberties of the individual. The public must be put in its place… so that each of us may live free of the trampling and the roar of a bewildered herd.”

This IS Straussian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Lippmann

Early on, Lippmann was optimistic about American democracy. He believed that the American people would become intellectually engaged in political and world issues and fulfill their democratic role as an educated electorate. In light of the events leading to World War II and the concomitant scourge of totalitarianism however, he rejected this view. Lippmann came to be seen as Noam Chomsky's moral and intellectual antithesis: [B]He agreed with the Platonic view that the population is a great beast, a herd, that has to be controlled by an intellectual specialist class. Chomsky used one of Lippmann's catch phrases for the title of his book about the media: Manufacturing Consent.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6750.htm

The neoconservative goal is reactionary in the classic sense of the term. It is nothing short of turning the clock back on the liberal revolution. And it will use democracy to accomplish its task. After all, Strauss had no objections to democracy as long as a wise elite, inspired by the profound truths of the ancients, was able to shape, invent, or create the will of the people. In his interpretation of Plato's myth of the cave, Strauss maintained that the philosophers who return to the cave should not bring in truth; instead, the philosophers should seek to manipulate the images in the cave, so that the people will remain in the stupor to which they are supremely fit.

And this guy said it best: You can fool some people some of the time, but you can't fol all the people all of the time. GET UP, STAND UP, STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS!

http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/B00005KB9T.09.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[pmoon6]

Also nominated for an Academy Award for "The Cooler".

I believe he also played right-wing hero Jack Ryan in the first two Tom Clancy movies.Baldwin was only in "Hunt For Red October", Harrison Ford took over in "Patriot Games" and he turned down the "October" role to make "Presumed Innocent".

Unless there was a movie previous that I don't know about.

[CoachC.]

Baldwin was only in "Hunt For Red October", Harrison Ford took over in "Patriot Games" and he turned down the "October" role to make "Presumed Innocent".

Unless there was a movie previous that I don't know about.

That's what I thought, as well.

Then came "Clear and Present Danger," and "Air Force One." Both with Ford playing Ryan. Was there another since?

[pmoon6]

That's what I thought, as well.

Then came "Clear and Present Danger," and "Air Force One." Both with Ford playing Ryan. Was there another since?Harrison Ford played Jack Ryan in two movies, "Patriot Games" and "Clear and Present Danger" The fourth Clancy/Jack Ryan book to make the silver screen was "Sum Of All Fears" where Ben Affleck played Ryan because it was a prequel.

"Air Force One" was not a Clancy book. Ford played President James Marshall and he replaced Kevin Costner, who had scheduling difficulties.

[CoachC.]

Harrison Ford played Jack Ryan in two movies, "Patriot Games" and "Clear and Present Danger" The fourth Clancy/Jack Ryan book to make the silver screen was "Sum Of All Fears" where Ben Affleck played Ryan because it was a prequel.

"Air Force One" was not a Clancy book. Ford played President James Marshall and he replaced Kevin Costner, who had scheduling difficulties.


Ahhhhh.......thank you kind sir.

[anEinherjer]

An interesting question would be to ask, "How do you _know_ you're an independent thinker?" And it's follow-on: "Are you sure?"

[JLB]

:amstupid: Garrulous Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., has once again planted his foot firmly in his mouth, and is scrambling to spin his videotaped racial slur that denigrates his state's growing population of people who hail from India.


But you'd never know it if your relied on the New York Times, Washington Post, or the rest of the mainstream media. Too busy betraying America's secrets to our enemies, none of them printed a word about Biden's gaffe.



Biden's comments were captured by C-Span cameras during a June event in New Hampshire where the likely 2008 presidential candidate was once again making the rounds with voters in this important primary state.


During a conversation with an Indian-American political activist, Biden said: "In Delaware, the largest growth of population is Indian-Americans, moving from India. You cannot go to a 7/11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking.


Quite an independent thinker that Joe Biden.

[CoachC.]

:amstupid: Garrulous Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., has once again planted his foot firmly in his mouth, and is scrambling to spin his videotaped racial slur that denigrates his state's growing population of people who hail from India.


But you'd never know it if your relied on the New York Times, Washington Post, or the rest of the mainstream media. Too busy betraying America's secrets to our enemies, none of them printed a word about Biden's gaffe.



Biden's comments were captured by C-Span cameras during a June event in New Hampshire where the likely 2008 presidential candidate was once again making the rounds with voters in this important primary state.


During a conversation with an Indian-American political activist, Biden said: "In Delaware, the largest growth of population is Indian-Americans, moving from India. You cannot go to a 7/11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking.


Quite an independent thinker that Joe Biden.

I guess this means Democrats hate people from India!

Oh, wait a minute. Maybe Republicans hate them because you posted this?!

[shiva2999]

:amstupid: Garrulous Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., has once again planted his foot firmly in his mouth, and is scrambling to spin his videotaped racial slur that denigrates his state's growing population of people who hail from India.


But you'd never know it if your relied on the New York Times, Washington Post, or the rest of the mainstream media. Too busy betraying America's secrets to our enemies, none of them printed a word about Biden's gaffe.



Biden's comments were captured by C-Span cameras during a June event in New Hampshire where the likely 2008 presidential candidate was once again making the rounds with voters in this important primary state.


During a conversation with an Indian-American political activist, Biden said: "In Delaware, the largest growth of population is Indian-Americans, moving from India. You cannot go to a 7/11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking.


Quite an independent thinker that Joe Biden.

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the thread subject.

Why not start your own thread about Joe Biden and Apu?

It's free.

[г]

mmmmmm, donuts

[JLB]

I guess this means Democrats hate people from India!

Oh, wait a minute. Maybe Republicans hate them because you posted this?!

No it means Joe Biden's got problems.

[JLB]

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the thread subject.

Why not start your own thread about Joe Biden and Apu?

It's free.

My post while not on topic mentioning Alec Baldwin was ok.
If you have nothing to comment on please ignore it.

:arizona:

[shiva2999]

My mention of Alec Baldwin was ok.

I let you have a freebie, but enough is enough.

Do you have anything to say about how public attitudes are shaped by professionals?

[JLB]

I let you have a freebie, but enough is enough.

Do you have anything to say about how public attitudes are shaped by professionals?


Not this time just the Hillary Clinton comment while being First Lady.

As she was not a pol not elected to anything or was she running the show?

Take the freebie you certainly enjoyed it.

:rolleyes2