What Would You Do To Make Buffalo Grow Again?

[35Pete]

You have heard me criticize Buffalo a lot. I think the city is dying and I find NO joy in that thought.

But what should be done to improve the region? To make people want to come back?

Post your thoughts. Then I'll post a few of mine.

[twosheds]

Win a few superbowls. I've read somewhere that the economic boost of winning a superbowl is bigger than the boost from hosting one.

[BillyT92679]

Streamline governance. Merging Erie County with the City and all the townships together would help right-size the government, and would allow for a lowering of taxes.

Develop a strategic plan for growth... the area is still sprawling outward even with a marked decline in population. This leaves thousands of buildings unoccupied, which just drains the tax rolls more and more. I would suggest funding a package to build a metro system that goes beyond the "subway to nowhere" to have a subway/light rail system that connects all points to what would be the traditional city of Buffalo... eliminating traffic jams (which should never exist in an area that is designed to hold quite a bit more people than live here now). This light rail system would help unify the area; it would save money on gas, obviously, but it would have also the opposite effect on what the highway system did for all towns... namely de fact segregation based on race and class.

From this, encourage corporate growth within the traditional downtown. Since there wouldn't be an Amherst or Lancaster or whatever anyway, there would be no need to have pockets of corporate development everywhere. Building a city center will help make what traditionally was Buffalo into a healthy and thrilling place to live. Jobs in the city will encourage people to move into the city... making the urban area a "place to be" is a great marketing tool to not just anchor what is already here, but to bring in other corporations. If Buffalo is cool in the way Seattle is cool, then you'll see people flock here. Then growth to the "suburbs" would make sense. You'd have smart growth because there wouldn't be abandoned areas, but every place would be filled.

[35Pete]

You have never been to Atlanta or Miami at 7:30am on a weekday. There are no traffic jams in Buffalo. LOL. Any traffic that moves faster than 9 mph during rush hour is not a traffic jam.

The expanded rail is misused resources. I would never use it. For professionals time is money. As much so as gas. Hundreds of millions for little impact. Use that hundreds of millions for land/tax breaks for new corporations to relocate and/or develop. Now you have infrastructure whose employees pay taxes. Light rail is just a drain. They should have never built it in the first place.

Merging gov't operations might be a good idea. But who would run it? Amherst elected officials (who know what they are doing) or Buffalo elected officials (who **** up everything they touch)? If Buffalo officials got control of the whole county then the jig is up. Time to move.

[BillyT92679]

You have never been to Atlanta or Miami at 7:30am on a weekday. There are no traffic jams in Buffalo. LOL. Any traffic that moves faster than 9 mph during rush hour is not a traffic jam.

The expanded rail is misused resources. I would never use it. For professionals time is money. As much so as gas. Hundreds of millions for little impact. Use that hundreds of millions for land/tax breaks for new corporations to relocate and/or develop. Now you have infrastructure whose employees pay taxes. Light rail is just a drain. They should have never built it in the first place.

Merging gov't operations might be a good idea. But who would run it? Amherst elected officials (who know what they are doing) or Buffalo elected officials (who **** up everything they touch)? If Buffalo officials got control of the whole county then the jig is up. Time to move.
To be fair, NYS has given millions and millions of dollars in tax breaks, and yet companies still relocate after a few years. I think tax incentives alone are too ephemeral. Should they be given? Certainly... but with the arcane rules that the state has regarding contracting, they're not the only issue.

Honestly, for an area that has lost 210,000 people, there is no way, no way that traffic should be even at just 9 miles per hour. Driving down 290 for me in the morning has given me headaches that aren't that much different from when I lived in Southern California when I was a kid, or driving around Baltimore/D.C. as an adult. The thing is, in places like the east side of Buffalo, there really are no traffic jams at all. Light rail is a useful investment as a corollary to other plans that would encourage a large rise in population. Building more roadways won't cut it.

The thing is, you'd have some competency in government. I wouldn't want Brown nor Giambra, but in an environment where you'd have a streamlined government, you'd be able to winnow out the fools more easily. They would not have their little fiefdoms of control anymore.

[35Pete]

Good points Billy even though I don't completely agree. :toast:

Tax breaks are necessary but not enough. Need to keep the unions at bay. Which means paying FAIR wages and benefits. Nothing more, nothing less. And pols that are not going to bend over to the unions. With such high income, sales, and property taxes it is impossible to keep highly skilled people in the area, let alone attract them. No wonder companies leave. They try and they give up.

But rail is far down the line. Really. Miami rush hour traffic could make you go postal. 3-4 miles and hour. That sucks.

The feifdoms kill WNY. But the voters let them get away with it.

[24Impala]

rebuild the entire city with the exception of hsbc arena and the Bisons stadium

[BillyT92679]

Good points Billy even though I don't completely agree. :toast:

Tax breaks are necessary but not enough. Need to keep the unions at bay. Which means paying FAIR wages and benefits. Nothing more, nothing less. And pols that are not going to bend over to the unions. With such high income, sales, and property taxes it is impossible to keep highly skilled people in the area, let alone attract them. No wonder companies leave. They try and they give up.

But rail is far down the line. Really. Miami rush hour traffic could make you go postal. 3-4 miles and hour. That sucks.

The feifdoms kill WNY. But the voters let them get away with it.
The union issue is so true that it's a tautalogy. I read somewhere that, in order for a building to get a built, the company needs to have four different contractors come in and do their own thing... electricians, plumbers, masons, etc. Taxes are bad enough, but even if you give breaks the amount of regulation (to say nothing of workers comp litigation and torts) basically makes doing business here a waste of time.

Development takes forever because of all the bureaucracy. That's one reason I like the Senecas coming in and doing so much... they don't screw around. Things get done very fast.

[Mouldsie]

Billy, the city may have lost a lot of people but WNY as a whole is still pretty big. I dont see an issue with traffic, it's worse in Myrtle Beach where I visit a lot.

[BanditsRock11]

Do something with the freakin waterfront. Just like Baltimore did, and get the bass pro shop in here, that with a sweet new waterfront could really improve the city and population. People love waterfronts.

[BillyT92679]

Do something with the freakin waterfront. Just like Baltimore did, and get the bass pro shop in here, that with a sweet new waterfront could really improve the city and population. People love waterfronts.
That would be nice... the biggest problem is that a lot of the waterfront is Superfund. The excavation of the land could take a few years to clean up all the pollution.
I read the Bethlehem Steel site is going to be cleaned up by like 2011, with some business development taking place over there.

[sukie]

Sucks that Bethlehem Steel is talked about in the past tense.

[M76]

we need major league baseball but in reality, yea start to develop the water front put cars back on main street.. same shit they've been talkin about for 25 years.. the key is to stream line all the politicians.. too many too many police.. lower the tax burden that way

[35Pete]

You also need to make the very painful decision to lower benefits, including social services.

[mark3274]

The only thing that will really help western NY is to

A) form a new state or
B) become part of PA somehow

NYC and Albany will never do anything to help the western part of NY

Buffalo could be the new capitol and the new state could then do whatever it pleases as far as taxes go with no longer sending money to NYC.

[unklechucky]

Develop the waterfront and move the Bills into a downtown domed stadium.

[The Philster]

Develop the waterfront and move the Bills into a downtown domed stadium.
a retractable roof...domes are for sissies

[mighty peace warrior]

move the city someplace warmer

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

Only pansies can't handle tough weather.

I kick weather's ass and look good doing it.

Get it together.

[mighty peace warrior]

Only pansies can't handle tough weather.

I kick weather's ass and look good doing it.

Get it together.
says the guy living in the desert

[sukie]

It's really simple... You need external cash flow...ie conventions. You also need industry jobs which left long ago. With the current tax situation... Buffalo is doomed to economic failure... WNY is neck and neck with Morgantown West Virginia.

[35Pete]

It's really simple... You need external cash flow...ie conventions. You also need industry jobs which left long ago. With the current tax situation... Buffalo is doomed to economic failure... WNY is neck and neck with Morgantown West Virginia.
They have a major technology university there (UB). They should exploit the hell out of it and create a research park in the region. Hell, you have archtitecture, medicine, engineering, dentistry,computer science.

Medicine and dentistry are already there. Work on developing a high tech industry. Stop thinking about lunch pail jobs too. Start thinking more professional jobs. With all the colleges in the region might as well at least try to keep your grads from leaving every year. And a lot of those tech jobs do not require college degrees. Training will suffice and people will enjoy them way more than inserting a wingnut into a product on an assembly line.

[mark3274]

They have a major technology university there (UB). They should exploit the hell out of it and create a research park in the region. Hell, you have archtitecture, medicine, engineering, dentistry,computer science.

Medicine and dentistry are already there. Work on developing a high tech industry. Stop thinking about lunch pail jobs too. Start thinking more professional jobs. With all the colleges in the region might as well at least try to keep your grads from leaving every year. And a lot of those tech jobs do not require college degrees. Training will suffice and people will enjoy them way more than inserting a wingnut into a product on an assembly line.
pete, all this has been tried IT is not going to work. Mainly because NY has the highest taxes in the nation No companies want to set up shop here and the grads ? they are not dumb grads know the first thing to do is get the hell out of NY as fast as possible.

Unless there is a major change such as western NY leaving the state you can place a tombstone from buffalo to albany and say rest in peace. The people in NY have only ourselves to blame as we keep sending rejects back into office in Albany over and over again.

[35Pete]

pete, all this has been tried IT is not going to work. Mainly because NY has the highest taxes in the nation No companies want to set up shop here and the grads ? they are not dumb grads know the first thing to do is get the hell out of NY as fast as possible.

Unless there is a major change such as western NY leaving the state you can place a tombstone from buffalo to albany and say rest in peace. The people in NY have only ourselves to blame as we keep sending rejects back into office in Albany over and over again.
That's the BIGGEST problem. The locals think that people want "services" more than anything. The new grads want to keep their checks. They are saying "You keep the services, I'm outta here. Ohh...and you can pay for your own services".

[Rockstar]

I’m not going to pretend that I know as much as some of you guys do about allot of the specifics on this topic but I do love Buffalo, and I only left to make the money I need to come home in a few years and buy my bar. I want to build my future in my home town. For myself my family and for the area I love. I’m 32 with 16 years in the restaurant business, 9 bartending, 4 years management experience. I feel well prepared that I can be successful back home. (Fingers crossed)
As for the city it’s self; I don’t know about the waterfront thing. I bartended in the Flats of Cleveland Ohio for six months back in 2000. Let me tell you, when I first visited the flats back in 96’ it was amazing. People everywhere, sprawling business. Now in 2006 the flats are dead. The entire waterfront is closed up due to crime and mismanagement. Hell, we can’t even build a fkin bridge! What makes anyone think we could develop a waterfront? As for the rail way system I think it would be a great source of pride and accomplishment for the city. I understand the previous points about stepping out of the shadow of our “lunch pail” beginnings. (My Grandfather, and father retired from GM River road, thirty plus years each) But we also have to realize that we have to start where we are…..The bottom. So many of our inner city population and even suburbanites are lower middle class at best. To have public transportation that actually gets you somewhere, like WORK, would be a great step towards building more “professional jobs” in Western NY.
I guess I have more of a question than an answer. Why do we keep reelecting shitty politicians that only help themselves versus helping our home town? In my humble opinion, until we oust the family, monarchical rule in Buffalo, we will forever be held back and sucked dry for the benefit of the few, at the expense of many.
By the way, the Bills should be moved downtown before anything ever happens. They have to be the single most important business in Buffalo and they are in friggin OP! Also there definitely shouldn’t be a dome. This is Buffalo!! Squish the fish and let them play in the cold!!

[mmiller]

Forget Bass Pro and the new Peace Bridge. There are many other signs of Buffalo's renaissance: the bio-medical campus, the resurgence of historical renovations to loft living (Elk Terminal, Oak School, Sidway, Belasario etc. etc.). These are just a few of many projects in the works downtown.

Yes, we have high taxes and poor management. We also have tremendous advantages going for us in the areas of abundant natural resources, high yet inexpensive quality of life, internationally recognized architecture and a well laid out infrastructure.

What we've experienced in the last 40 years is not unlike other rust belt cities like Cleveland, Pittburgh, Detroit or Cincinnati. The industrial revolution that defined us, has left us. We are currently in the process of redefining ourselves. I'm hoping that our next incarnation is that of a city that attracts highly skilled medical professionals. The need for those types of jobs will always be there.

We have a long way to go, for sure. But it's already started.

[35Pete]

Forget Bass Pro and the new Peace Bridge. There are many other signs of Buffalo's renaissance: the bio-medical campus, the resurgence of historical renovations to loft living (Elk Terminal, Oak School, Sidway, Belasario etc. etc.). These are just a few of many projects in the works downtown.

Yes, we have high taxes and poor management. We also have tremendous advantages going for us in the areas of abundant natural resources, high yet inexpensive quality of life, internationally recognized architecture and a well laid out infrastructure.

What we've experienced in the last 40 years is not unlike other rust belt cities like Cleveland, Pittburgh, Detroit or Cincinnati. The industrial revolution that defined us, has left us. We are currently in the process of redefining ourselves. I'm hoping that our next incarnation is that of a city that attracts highly skilled medical professionals. The need for those types of jobs will always be there.

We have a long way to go, for sure. But it's already started.


First let me say that I respect your enthusiasm and optimism but I could not disagree more. (respectfully, of course).

Until the population AT LEAST STABILIZES then there can be no indication at all that WNY is "bouncing back".

Cheers. :toast:

[mmiller]

But the population won't stabilize until there are enough well paying jobs for our young people to stay here for. That's where the biomedical campus comes in. It's a field that will help us retain many of our local and foreign University at Buffalo medical students.

Trust me, I've been alive long enough to see past just optimism. Part of our major identity problem in Buffalo is that years of stagnation and decline have jaded us past believing that anything good will ever happen here. This city just has too much going for it to ever die. We just don't know how good we really have got it.

[35Pete]

But the population won't stabilize until there are enough well paying jobs for our young people to stay here for. That's where the biomedical campus comes in. It's a field that will help us retain many of our local and foreign University at Buffalo medical students.

Trust me, I've been alive long enough to see past just optimism. Part of our major identity problem in Buffalo is that years of stagnation and decline have jaded us past believing that anything good will ever happen here. This city just has too much going for it to ever die. We just don't know how good we really have got it.
Again I disagree.

Buffalo does not have it "really good". They are at such a competitive disadvantage. How do they "have it really good?".

[mmiller]

1. Inexpensive housing - among the cheapest in the nation. You can buy a decent house here with an middle income wage. Try that in Vegas, Charlotte or Atlanta. Housing is much more disproportionate to income in other more prosperous cities. That fact alone increases disposable income and lessens the impact of higher taxes.

2. Geography - we have a huge fresh water lake, one of the largest most beautiful rivers in the world AND Niagara Falls. All underestimated natural assets. Vegas and LA would kill for a fresh water source like ours.

3. Weather - despite our reputation for snow and cold, we don't have hurricanes, earthquakes, forest fires or any other type of natural disaster that we have to deal with on a regular basis.

4. Infrastructure - because of Buffalo's prosperous past, we enjoy the benefits of a well designed city hub and many reknowned architectural landmarks.

These are all elementary resources but they are the building block on which cities can prosper. Revitalization starts with recognizing your assets and promoting them. That's already being done and the call is being answered. It only takes one major project, like the $60 million Statler redevelopment plan (by a foreign investor, BTW), to demonstrate that Buffalo is a good investment.

Build it and they will come.

[sukie]

That just shows that realestate is a good investment. NOT the WNY economy. The tax disadvantages have killed manufacturing in WNY. Companies will not move back once gone and new manufacturing jobs will always go where it is more financially feasible. It's a tough situation.

[mmiller]

Large scale manufacturing in WNY is being brought down by several factors, not the least of which was overpriced union labor. Look at Delphi. They pay $27/hour for a job that pays $6-10/hour in Mexico. It's not just the economy in WNY... it's global. Manufacturing has its own set of problems. Buffalo's light industry manufacturing seems to be healthy though.

[mark3274]

well, besides all the political crap going on in buffalo Untill Western NY wakes up and figures out Albany and NYC could give a crap about them and stop sending the same incumbant state politicians back to albany over and over not much will change.

Western NY has to rethink everything...... do you really need a police force in each town? or a school district....?

Taxes will keep WNY on it's death roll sorry drastic change is needed.

[unklechucky]

a retractable roof...domes are for sissies

reguardless, I love football outdoors as much as any Buffalonian. i mentioned a dome to attract a Superbowl.

[The Philster]

reguardless, I love football outdoors as much as any Buffalonian. i mentioned a dome to attract a Superbowl.make it retractable though..close it for the SuperBowl, concerts, stuff like that

[sukie]

There will never be a Superbowl in Buffalo. Where are they all gonna stay? The travel lodge on NF Boulevard?

[Sabres244]

sell the Bills..

[BillyT92679]

sell the Bills..
Seriously, even if the Sabres win the next ten Stanley Cups, they would not have the impact nationally that winning one Super Bowl for the Bills would have for Bufflao.

[ChesapeakeBills]

There are some good ideas here....

One particular thing comes to mind though... Last month, I took a trip back to my hometown and stayed with my mother in Orchard Park for a few days. When I was rummaging through a stack of magazines on the coffee table, I found the Orchard Park Central Schools bulletin for the Spring/Summer 2006. In it, it listed the top 10 students of the graduating class of 2006, and what their college plans were. As I started reading, I felt more and more sad. All of these kids have extremely bright futures, but I'll bet you none of them will ever come back to WNY to make a living. Why? Because what MIT educated engineer wants to come back to a place where jobs pay poorly compared to many other places in the country. What Northwestern doctor would want to open up a practice where taxes are extremely high and malpractice insurance is extremely high.

Here's a hint. WNY and NYS can brag about its good schools all it wants, but unless or until the kids with these good educations stay in WNY, you have just exported your most valuable assett... brains to finance the development of other parts of the country.

And as far as WNY enjoying certain competitive advantages, I don't think housing is one of them. To finance the "good" schools, property taxes and school taxes are sky high. Sure, what costs 200,000 in Buffalo would be 600,000 in Washington, DC, but I'll bet the property taxes are lower on that 600,000 dollar house in Washington (10,000 in Buffalo to 7,000 in Washington) meaning that your total monthly housing payment goes more towards principle and interest than taxes. Plus, salaries are MUCH higher around Washington making that 600,000 dollar house more affordable than the 200,000 dollar house around Buffalo.

What can be done to help? Start by beginning a massive clean up of old industrial brownfields and pollution/contamination. Literally rip that crap right out of the ground. I don't know where the hell you would put the spoils, but not in my back yard. That will get people working. Then, merge government at all levels in NYS to a county- based system. Eliminate the redundancy. Tax savings galore. Finally, start stealing corporate headquarters from places like DC and Boston where it's really expensive for workers to live. Tell those companies to tell their workers their days of horrible commutes and high housing prices are over. You want to create a town full of corporate headquarters instead of division offices, because headquarters jobs are more secure and stable (closer to the power). And people will want to come back because taxes would be reasonable, and the grass is green (no more brownfields). There is more, but I am at work now and have spent enough time on this.

Thanks, Pete for getting this started.

[35Pete]

What's worse Chesapeake is that everyone there is soooo proud of all the services provided for the "working guy" and the "disadvantaged". "Look at us! Look at how humane we are. We care about THE PEOPLE!" Problem is that those bright, well educated young folks are leaving because they don't want to have to pay for the "working guy" or the slob holding a bottle of ripple on the corner of Leroy and Filmore.

Yet ANOTHER example of the failure of liberal thinking.

[ChesapeakeBills]

What's worse Chesapeake is that everyone there is soooo proud of all the services provided for the "working guy" and the "disadvantaged". "Look at us! Look at how humane we are. We care about THE PEOPLE!" Problem is that those bright, well educated young folks are leaving because they don't want to have to pay for the "working guy" or the slob holding a bottle of ripple on the corner of Leroy and Filmore.

Yet ANOTHER example of the failure of liberal thinking.

I disagree, Pete. The bright, well educated folks leave to follow work.

Period.

Some say that jobs follow people, but I feel that people follow jobs. The "invisible hand" drives companies to the conclusion that doing business is cheaper, elsewhere. And companies do not want to pay the taxes to support those humane social programs you speak of, because in lower tax areas in the south and the west, those people live in such abject poverty in the rural fringes (and they are doing just fine, thank you very much), that they simply don't have the capacity or the means to demand government hand-outs.

[StevieT]

rebuild the entire city with the exception of hsbc arena and the Bisons stadium


that is such an ignorant statement given the amount of architectural gems this region is proud to call their own...

buffalo, aside from the obviously blighted areas and the waterfront, is a beautiful city...

[wagoncircler]

I disagree, Pete. The bright, well educated folks leave to follow work.

Period.

Some say that jobs follow people, but I feel that people follow jobs. The "invisible hand" drives companies to the conclusion that doing business is cheaper, elsewhere. And companies do not want to pay the taxes to support those humane social programs you speak of, because in lower tax areas in the south and the west, those people live in such abject poverty in the rural fringes (and they are doing just fine, thank you very much), that they simply don't have the capacity or the means to demand government hand-outs.

People follow jobs, yes, but jobs follow favorable business climates.

The culture of patronage and graft and over-taxing created in WNY over the past four decades is the reason people have to go elsewhere for jobs.

Businesses cannot sustain themselves in an area where the number one employer, far and away, is the government.

[ChesapeakeBills]

People follow jobs, yes, but jobs follow favorable business climates.

The culture of patronage and graft and over-taxing created in WNY over the past four decades is the reason people have to go elsewhere for jobs.

Businesses cannot sustain themselves in an area where the number one employer, far and away, is the government.

Yeah, that elaborates more on what I wrote. The business climate is horrible there. But the problems are not unique to Buffalo, and WNY. Seems to be the same everywhere in upstate.

[35Pete]

Businesses cannot sustain themselves in an area where the number one employer, far and away, is the government.


People in Buffalo are born Democrat and all they know is government. They just cannot help themselves when, from the age of 3, all that they have been told is that there are very powerful forces allied against them, to screw them "the working man", and all they can do for recourse is to join unions and prop up the Democratic Party. The party will bring government, which will protect them.

Buffalonians are outright HOSTILE to corporate America. Who TF would want to relocate to THAT environment?

I remember 2 years ago my sister and brother-in-law taking me to the Seneca Casino. Instead of being grateful for the jobs they brought my brother-in-law went on a 20 minute bitch session about how the Senacas don't give enough in tax revenues to the area.

Unbelievable.

[adporter59]

The bottom line is Oppourtunity! There is no oppourtunity for someone to make a decent living in Buffalo. Yes our students are leaving and not coming back. I am one of those students that was born and raised in the City of Buffalo, graduated from Lafayette, and went on to college. After graduating from college I came back to Buffalo to look for a job, not only I was told there was nothing for me I was treated very bad!

The people in Buffalo I feel has changed alot! That is one of the reasons people are leaving and not coming back.

The idea of the waterfront is nice but until we get some major corporations in the CITY of Buffalo none of that is going to matter.

[gilchristfan]

People follow jobs, yes, but jobs follow favorable business climates.

The culture of patronage and graft and over-taxing created in WNY over the past four decades is the reason people have to go elsewhere for jobs.

Businesses cannot sustain themselves in an area where the number one employer, far and away, is the government.

Couldn't agree more with most of it. The only thing is, even if you eliminate the graft and overtaxing in WNY (and it needs to be done), you still have the NYS tax situation to deal with.

Buffalo should have went with a Metropolitan form of government 30 years ago, both for schools and public services.

But that still doesn't eliminate the state taxes.

Unless they can somehow control Albany, they'll need to come up with a way to sell themselves to businesses enough to overcome the high state taxes.

Maybe a satellite office in China?
Or a new homestead act. Give away land in blighted areas for new construction.

Or a space port.

[wagoncircler]

Couldn't agree more with most of it. The only thing is, even if you eliminate the graft and overtaxing in WNY (and it needs to be done), you still have the NYS tax situation to deal with.

Buffalo should have went with a Metropolitan form of government 30 years ago, both for schools and public services.

But that still doesn't eliminate the state taxes.

Unless they can somehow control Albany, they'll need to come up with a way to sell themselves to businesses enough to overcome the high state taxes.

Maybe a satellite office in China?
Or a new homestead act. Give away land in blighted areas for new construction.

Or a space port.

Or legislation to make NYC into its own state.

[35Pete]

Or legislation to make NYC into its own state.
True.

But until attitudes like my brother-in-law (who is a big time Buffalo democratic city official) changes and people stop looking at business like a cash cow the companies are not going to assume the headache. They will just relocate somewhere else.

[sahlensguy]

You have heard me criticize Buffalo a lot. I think the city is dying and I find NO joy in that thought.

But what should be done to improve the region? To make people want to come back?

Post your thoughts. Then I'll post a few of mine.

It's a nice discussion - somewhat depressing though...

Anyway if you truly want to do your part in revitalizing the city...move there.

Not to OP or Amherst but to downtown.

Put a fresh coat of paint on the exterior, plant some flowers and throw big parties for your neighbors.

[35Pete]

It's a nice discussion - somewhat depressing though...

Anyway if you truly want to do your part in revitalizing the city...move there.

Not to OP or Amherst but to downtown.

Put a fresh coat of paint on the exterior, plant some flowers and throw big parties for your neighbors.
Why would I want to move into a dying economy?

[sahlensguy]

Why would I want to move into a dying economy?

There is only ONE Buffalo NY.

[Rockstar]

Why would I want to move into a dying economy?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sahlensguy
It's a nice discussion - somewhat depressing though...

Anyway if you truly want to do your part in revitalizing the city...move there.

Not to OP or Amherst but to downtown.

Put a fresh coat of paint on the exterior, plant some flowers and throw big parties for your neighbors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very simply said, and ultimately, the only way any of these discussions will matter is if people move back to Buffalo. I am. Be back in three years to open my bar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 35Pete
Why would I want to move into a dying economy?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t know?!? Maybe because its HOME! Family figures in largely. I ‘m not going to get all corny about loyalty towards our home town but I will say this. I can’t stand Buffalonians that live out of town and bash Buffalo. If you’re not originally from there then I don’t give a crap what you think. As for the people that are, I understand if you had to leave to work, but bashing a great city and great people is equal to being a Miami, or Dallas fan living in Buffalo. Makes you an ignorant, soulless looser.
Just my opinion.

[unklechucky]

True.

But until attitudes like my brother-in-law (who is a big time Buffalo democratic city official) changes and people stop looking at business like a cash cow the companies are not going to assume the headache. They will just relocate somewhere else.

Democrats have run the city into the graveyard for 30+ years now. How much more does it take before the people realise a need for change? If an incumbent is a do nothing, replace them. The city needs a vision, not the same old shit different day.

[unklechucky]

There will never be a Superbowl in Buffalo. Where are they all gonna stay? The travel lodge on NF Boulevard?

Jacksonville managed. Where theres a will theres a way.

[35Pete]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahlensguy
It's a nice discussion - somewhat depressing though...

Anyway if you truly want to do your part in revitalizing the city...move there.

Not to OP or Amherst but to downtown.

Put a fresh coat of paint on the exterior, plant some flowers and throw big parties for your neighbors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very simply said, and ultimately, the only way any of these discussions will matter is if people move back to Buffalo. I am. Be back in three years to open my bar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 35Pete
Why would I want to move into a dying economy?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t know?!? Maybe because its HOME! Family figures in largely. I ‘m not going to get all corny about loyalty towards our home town but I will say this. I can’t stand Buffalonians that live out of town and bash Buffalo. If you’re not originally from there then I don’t give a crap what you think. As for the people that are, I understand if you had to leave to work, but bashing a great city and great people is equal to being a Miami, or Dallas fan living in Buffalo. Makes you an ignorant, soulless looser.
Just my opinion.
Souless loser? Typical thin skinned Buffalonian. Cannot stand to here criticism and painful truth. What exactly did I say that is "bashing"? That is not truth nor factual in nature. Pray tell, please tell me.

[Mouldsie]

its the way you say it pete and the appearance that economic prosperity is seemingly the only important thing to you. sometimes people will choose to live in buffalo for other reasons, and to give them grief is lame.

[35Pete]

its the way you say it pete and the appearance that economic prosperity is seemingly the only important thing to you. sometimes people will choose to live in buffalo for other reasons, and to give them grief is lame.
You don't think that I would LOVE to live in Buffalo? I've said it a million times that everywhere I am I still miss the incredible friendliness and neighborly behavior or WNYer's. Best damn people in the nation. So I was spoiled, expect it everywhere, but see it no where.

Fact of the matter is Mouldsie that I am ANGRY AS HELL. It's insanity. The same policies have failed for more than 40 years now and what does Buffalo do? Enact the same damn policies.

You had better think that economics are critical. For the sake of our beloved Bills you had better. I cannot relocate there when taxes are so high and salaries so low. Even if there is a job to be had. That is what pisses me off.

[twosheds]

You had better think that economics are critical. For the sake of our beloved Bills you had better. I cannot relocate there when taxes are so high and salaries so low. Even if there is a job to be had. That is what pisses me off.

But there will be no change if the people who want change all move/stay away.

[35Pete]

But there will be no change if the people who want change all move/stay away.
It's because after 40+ years of nonsense we are not going to sacrifice our economic livelihood for "the cause". That is asking way too much, don't you think? Why make mid 5 figures "for the cause" in Buffalo and have that taxed to death on top of things when I can live in a low tax area and make a nice 6 figures? Really? Easy for people NOT in my situation to suggest this scenario. You don't have the bills to pay that I do. I self-financed my entire education. So high was the bill that I had to consolidate over decades and the monthly would still make you choke. Not complaining, it was a worthy investment. But if I had that bill in Buffalo with Buffalo salaries and Buffalo taxes then I would be living in lower middle class. Not gonna do it. Just not going to.

[twosheds]

I don't blame you at all. But if you wait for change, you can often wait a long time. If you want chance, you've got to do changes yourself.

[Sabres244]

Seriously, even if the Sabres win the next ten Stanley Cups, they would not have the impact nationally that winning one Super Bowl for the Bills would have for Bufflao.
It was a joke I love the Bills and Buffalo, and if you actually believe your comment above you're an idiot

[BillyT92679]

It was a joke I love the Bills and Buffalo, and if you actually believe your comment above you're an idiot

I do, earnestly and completely, believe the comment that I make. And, young man, I'm no idiot. Like it or not, the NHL is barely above a minor league in relevance and importance in this country; regional proximity to Canada aside, Stanley Cup Championships would do little to effect serious changes in mindset throught the country about and for this area. A Super Bowl championship, conversely, would have a salutary benefit that would be difficult to quantify.

[35Pete]

I do, earnestly and completely, believe the comment that I make. And, young man, I'm no idiot. Like it or not, the NHL is barely above a minor league in relevance and importance in this country; regional proximity to Canada aside, Stanley Cup Championships would do little to effect serious changes in mindset throught the country about and for this area. A Super Bowl championship, conversely, would have a salutary benefit that would be difficult to quantify.
I agree.

Stanley Cup Impact: 1
Super Bowl Impact: 10

Poll 1000 people nationwide randomly and ask them who won the Super Bowl. Now poll the same 1000 and ask who won the Stanley Cup. The ratio of correct answers will be 10:1.

[voicekiller]

Streamline governance. Merging Erie County with the City and all the townships together would help right-size the government, and would allow for a lowering of taxes.

Develop a strategic plan for growth... the area is still sprawling outward even with a marked decline in population. This leaves thousands of buildings unoccupied, which just drains the tax rolls more and more. I would suggest funding a package to build a metro system that goes beyond the "subway to nowhere" to have a subway/light rail system that connects all points to what would be the traditional city of Buffalo... eliminating traffic jams (which should never exist in an area that is designed to hold quite a bit more people than live here now). This light rail system would help unify the area; it would save money on gas, obviously, but it would have also the opposite effect on what the highway system did for all towns... namely de fact segregation based on race and class.

From this, encourage corporate growth within the traditional downtown. Since there wouldn't be an Amherst or Lancaster or whatever anyway, there would be no need to have pockets of corporate development everywhere. Building a city center will help make what traditionally was Buffalo into a healthy and thrilling place to live. Jobs in the city will encourage people to move into the city... making the urban area a "place to be" is a great marketing tool to not just anchor what is already here, but to bring in other corporations. If Buffalo is cool in the way Seattle is cool, then you'll see people flock here. Then growth to the "suburbs" would make sense. You'd have smart growth because there wouldn't be abandoned areas, but every place would be filled.

I like this idea a lot...i also think we need to focus on the waterfront...and we need to build a major attraction downtown...like cleveland did with the rock and roll hall of fame

[35Pete]

I like this idea a lot...i also think we need to focus on the waterfront...and we need to build a major attraction downtown...like cleveland did with the rock and roll hall of fame
Show me a city government planned and developed (minus typical urban planning) that outpaced a privately developed city.

[K-Gun]

Buffalo needs real media. The only way that the "system" changes is if the public demands it. The only way to channel the public's desire to see BUffalo grow in a positive direction is through active media that asks the tough questions of the politicians and digs deep to find out what is really going on.

[KevinP]

You know, there are grassroots groups in Western New York who are fighting to make a difference.

You may have seen the feature on Buffalo Old Home Week on Channel 2 over the weekend. (http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=39601)

Or you can go check out our site (http://www.buffoldhome.com/). There's tons to do, including a job fair and presentations by entrepeneurs who came back to Buffalo and started their own businesses. And those people will be there to help people who want to start their own businesses.

There are dozens of people working hard to bring people back home and see how much our city has changed in the last ten years. We plan on doing that over the weekend of August 24-27. If anyone wants to be a part of it and actually do something to make a difference just drop me a line.

[zimrules]

I was one of those who did leave due to the lack of good paying jobs. One thing that amazes me is the lack of marketing of the HUMAN resources that have not yet left. That is one way to stop the bleeding.

A thought (as a techie) a LOT of companies are looking for disaster recovery data center sites. I think Buffalo would be a perfect environment for this. Snow is about the only major natural disaster - and a redundant data center wouldn't be affected by that.

You have smart minds who could staff the round the clock operations. There would be a promotable career path within companies for people (start as a overnight ops maintenance guy - work your way up to a 9-5 (does that exist anymore?) architect) . It also gives folks exposure to some cutting edge technologies and high paying jobs.

As the industry takes hold, more corporations would spring up to support these endeavors. It could become a center for "outsourcing within the US".

There is already a built infrastructure (basic utilities/buildings/data channels) in place.

Market it.

[sukie]

Cheaper in Indiana.

[35Pete]

I was one of those who did leave due to the lack of good paying jobs. One thing that amazes me is the lack of marketing of the HUMAN resources that have not yet left. That is one way to stop the bleeding.

A thought (as a techie) a LOT of companies are looking for disaster recovery data center sites. I think Buffalo would be a perfect environment for this. Snow is about the only major natural disaster - and a redundant data center wouldn't be affected by that.

You have smart minds who could staff the round the clock operations. There would be a promotable career path within companies for people (start as a overnight ops maintenance guy - work your way up to a 9-5 (does that exist anymore?) architect) . It also gives folks exposure to some cutting edge technologies and high paying jobs.

As the industry takes hold, more corporations would spring up to support these endeavors. It could become a center for "outsourcing within the US".

There is already a built infrastructure (basic utilities/buildings/data channels) in place.

Market it.
Welcome aboard and keep on posting! :toast:

[anEinherjer]

The truly depressing part is that people really COULD make a difference in Buffalo, but we've all run out on the place.

But I'll be heading back. It's in the 5 year plan. I left because I was broke, didn't have a clue, and a wife who wanted a shot at the big time down here in DC. Family is winning the battle though, and we'll be moving back......

I was thinking today that Buffalo needs to get off its collective ass and do something unique - do something that makes it stand out. The first thing I thought (because I was reading the magazine from the union for concerned scientists...) was wind power.

Why not provide tax incentives (ie: No tax for you!) for companies to just put up enough wind power to generate the electricity we want and export it around the country. Screw NF, that things tortured by gov't nonsense anyway. Screw the NIMBY dumb****s who think wind power causes cancer.

Or pick something else - I know the biotech stuff is doing alright, but come on, that's done elsewhere. Let's just try something unique.

Like electing libertarians. :D

[sukie]

The "Environ-mental cases" will protest like in Mass.

[KevinP]

The truly depressing part is that people really COULD make a difference in Buffalo, but we've all run out on the place.

But I'll be heading back. It's in the 5 year plan. I left because I was broke, didn't have a clue, and a wife who wanted a shot at the big time down here in DC. Family is winning the battle though, and we'll be moving back......

:D

Please check out our site (http://www.buffoldhome.com/), for all kinds of ways to get connected in Buffalo.

Buffalo Old Home Week continues to grow, with Channels 2, 4, and 7 all doing stories recently. And you can go to Buffalo.com to register for a chance to win round trip tickets back to Buffalo, a two-night stay at The Mansion, dinner for two, and a Buffalo gift basket.

And if you need a lead on jobs, just drop me a line, because our job fair is being set up with over 40 employers and 1,000 jobs paying over $35,000. There IS work here in Buffalo, and we'll help you find it!

[notacon]

This is a continuation of another thread with much of the same misconceptions and misinformation.

New York State does NOT HAVE HIGH TAXES!!!! Indeed the perception of being so is one of the biggest problems facing WNY.

When looking at the ratio of taxes to per capita income (the ONLY way to accurately determine the relative tax burden on individual state’s citizens) NY ranks #29.

That being even though most of the concentration of taxes paid is in and around NYC.

Relying on the false premise that growth is being kept down in WNY due to “high taxes” just masks the real problems and precludes any coherent or effective remedy.

NO…the taxes due on a $600,000 house in the DC area are NOT less than the taxes on a $200,000 in WNY.

Again, this type of raw falsehood is the problem.

The only intelligent remedy was given by mighty peace warrior…. “move the city someplace warmer”

Most of the growth areas in this country are in the “sun-belt”. Growth follows population movement. Jobs follow population movement. Growth follows job growth. Population movement follows growth and jobs.

It is a vicious cycle that Buffalo has been out of for decades.

Want to know the most important invention in the last century?…AIR CONDITIONING!

This alone has made the hot areas in this country livable.

[notacon]

BTW…if you take the average GDP growth, by state, for the last four years (average GDP growth is the BEST way to determine sustained growth in any given state because it evens out any one year spike or valley)….NYS ranks #37.

This taken as a comparison to it’s rank of #29 in taxes….

Of the 28 states that rank HIGHER than NYS in terms of taxes TWENTY of them also ranked higher than #37 in rank of growth.

TAXES are NOT the problem.

[anEinherjer]

One-trick pony, here he comes again. :rolleyes:

Since you have zero ideas, and seem to be consigned to the death of the favorite city of your fellow posters... just go post somewhere else.

When looking at the ratio of taxes to per capita income (the ONLY way to accurately determine the relative tax burden on individual state’s citizens) NY ranks #29.

Come back to us when you have the ranking of upstate NY. Or better yet, just the 8 counties that comprise WNY. Or when you have proof from any recognizable, reputable source that your way is the "ONLY" way. I won't hold my breath.

[notacon]

One-trick pony, here he comes again. :rolleyes:

Since you have zero ideas, and seem to be consigned to the death of the favorite city of your fellow posters... just go post somewhere else.


Actually you are the “one trick pony” since you cannot come up with anything besides “go post somewhere else”. Believe it or not I don’t give a rat’s ass where you think I should post.

You have not given ONE SHRED of proof that…#1 NYS is guilty of “high taxes” OR…#2 the phantom high taxes have any effect on the slow growth in this area.

Indeed the only “facts” you have presented (in another thread) where misleading (I use that word generously…they were lies) that compared VA taxes to NY taxes.

I showed them to be absolutely FALSE…because that is all you have to offer is misleading and truth challenged bullshit!

[notacon]

Come back to us when you have the ranking of upstate NY. Or better yet, just the 8 counties that comprise WNY. Or when you have proof from any recognizable, reputable source that your way is the "ONLY" way. I won't hold my breath.

The census bureau puts out data for the 35 largest counties. Here is how they rank for property taxes…

County.........2000 population...property taxes..rank..tax per capita

Fairfax, VA...........969,749....1,410,000,000.....1....$1, 453.98
Harris, TX..........3,400,578....1,969,000,000.....2.....$ 579.02
Westchester, NY.......923,459......462,000,000.....3.....$500.2 9
Nassau, NY..........1,334,544......653,000,000.....4.....$ 489.31
Dade, FL............2,253,362......868,000,000.....5.... .$385.20
Hillsborough, FL......998,948......378,000,000.....6.....$378.40
Hennepin, MN........1,116,200......421,000,000.....7.....$37 7.17
Palm Beach, FL......1,131,184......422,000,000.....8.....$373. 06
Broward, FL.........1,623,018......523,000,000.....9.....$3 22.24
Pinellas, FL..........921,482......271,000,000....10.....$29 4.09
Suffolk, NY.........1,419,369......413,000,000....11.....$2 90.97
Clark, NV...........1,375,765......373,000,000....12..... $271.12
Santa Clara, CA.....1,682,585......456,000,000....13.....$271.0 1
Franklin, OH........1,068,978......262,000,000....14.....$24 5.09
Los Angeles, CA.....9,519,338....2,101,000,000....15.....$220.7 1
King, WA............1,737,034......365,000,000....16.... .$210.13
Erie, NY..............950,265......192,000,000....17.... .$202.05
Alameda, CA.........1,443,741......287,000,000....18.....$1 98.79
Milwaukee, WI.........940,164......176,000,000....19.....$187 .20
Bexar, TX...........1,392,931......259,000,000....20..... $185.94
Allegheny, PA.......1,281,666......234,000,000....21.....$182 .57
Cuyohoga, OH........1,393,978......252,000,000....22.....$18 0.78
Dallas, TX..........2,218,899......401,000,000....23.....$ 180.72
Contra Costa, CA......948,816......162,000,000....24.....$170.74
Sacramento, CA......1,223,499......186,000,000....25.....$152. 02
Cook, IL............5,376,741......802,000,000....26.... .$149.16
Oakland, MI.........1,194,156......178,000,000....27.....$1 49.06
Riverside, CA.......1,545,387......230,000,000....28.....$148 .83
Wayne, MI...........2,061,162......290,000,000....29..... $140.70
San Diego, CA.......2,813,833......383,000,000....30.....$136 .11
Maricopa, AZ........3,072,149......410,000,000....31.....$13 3.46
San Bernardino, CA..1,709,434......218,000,000....32.....$127.53
Orange, CA..........2,846,289......352,000,000....33.....$ 123.67
Tarrant, TX.........1,446,219......160,000,000....34.....$1 10.63
St Louis, MO........1,016,315.......80,000,000....35......$7 8.72

Erie County ranks #17 out of 35.

Interestingly enough, the HIGHEST property taxes (by a HUGE margin) paid were in Fairfax County, VA…a close neighbor of Prince William County.

The very same Price William County that you said had such lower property taxes than Erie. Do a little research and tell us all just how much…per capita…is paid in property taxes in your county.

Of course, you are full of hot air…especially when those pesky little facts come out.

[M76]

how about a small china town in downtown.. the arabs are trying to renovate the east side.. thats what we need is minorities taking back their neighborhoods especially since blacks latinos and arabs seem to be not the minority in a lot of the areas in buffalo these days.. a stadium would have to have multiple multiple uses.. think about bills play 8 regular season games and 2 preseason games at home.. thats 10 days out of 365.. say a person stays for a weekend thats stilll only 30 days of ussage.. clear out these unions everyone stop ****in protesting progress and new buildings wanting to be built. like the proposed tower on gates circle hotel on elmwood casino in that bustling area of cobblestone er.. etc etc etc i guess it has to start with grassroots and independent thinkers republicans and democrats are all *******s

[35Pete]

County fiscal plan ordered in 30 days

Major Erie County property tax increases loom in 2008 and 2009, members of the control board warned Tuesday, vowing to tell the county executive next week that he must provide a better strategy to balance budgets for the tail end of this decade.

If County Executive Joel Giambra does not comply within roughly 30 days, the seven state appointees could consider the plan out of balance and vote to become a more powerful panel that can reach over elected leaders to rein in spending. Most of the members have said they could accomplish more by becoming a so-called hard control board.

"Where we are coming from is to hold their feet to the fire and say this problem hasn't gone away," said the panel's chairman, businessman Anthony J. Baynes, as he met Tuesday with The Buffalo News editorial board. Joining him were member Kenneth Kruly and the board's executive director, Kenneth Vetter, who is Giambra's former budget director.

Giambra and his new budget director, James M. Hartman, responded Tuesday by saying the Fiscal Stability Authority has no right to become a hard control board as long as the budget balances, as, they maintain, it does this year and will again next year.

"I think this is just bizarre," Giambra said. "We are going to put together a budget that is structurally balanced, and we are going to do our darndest to put together a structurally balanced scenario for the out years," he said, referring to 2008 through 2010.

But his administration will not present it this month or next month, as the board will ask. Hartman said he will adjust the forecast for 2008-10 in October, as the law that created the control board requires him to do when he presents a budget for next year.

...more...

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060719/1061364.asp

[gilchristfan]

This is a continuation of another thread with much of the same misconceptions and misinformation.

New York State does NOT HAVE HIGH TAXES!!!! Indeed the perception of being so is one of the biggest problems facing WNY.



Tell that to Rick Tally-Ho.

http://buffalorange.com/showthread.php?t=93019

I'm sorry, when you tax lap dances, you've lost me.

[mark3274]

BTW…if you take the average GDP growth, by state, for the last four years (average GDP growth is the BEST way to determine sustained growth in any given state because it evens out any one year spike or valley)….NYS ranks #37.

This taken as a comparison to it’s rank of #29 in taxes….

Of the 28 states that rank HIGHER than NYS in terms of taxes TWENTY of them also ranked higher than #37 in rank of growth.

TAXES are NOT the problem.
taxes are not the problem??????? lmao thinking like this is exactly the problem and why western NY will never recover.

You probably think we should raise taxes so goverment employee's can make more money.

And move the city south is a solution... lol and no way NY is ranked low in taxes pure propoganda ask the Thousands of companies that have left NY just since 2000 why they left all of them will state taxes and overregulation. get a clue.

[notacon]

taxes are not the problem??????? lmao thinking like this is exactly the problem and why western NY will never recover.

You probably think we should raise taxes so goverment employee's can make more money.

And move the city south is a solution... lol and no way NY is ranked low in taxes pure propoganda ask the Thousands of companies that have left NY just since 2000 why they left all of them will state taxes and overregulation. get a clue.

Which makes your thinking part of the problem.

I have taken great pains…and a lot of time to prove that taxes are not “too high” in WNY, and NYS and also shown most of the states with higher rates of growth also have higher taxes.

Common sense dictates that there are other reasons besides taxes that are stunting growth in WNY.

And no…I don’t think that “we should raise taxes so government employee's can make more money”. That is absurd on it’s face and indicative that EVERY time one who cannot accept facts thinks they know what I think they are 100% WRONG!!!

YOU get a clue and accept reality for what it is instead of looking at the world with blinders on.

[mark3274]

So lets see you really think Rochester or Western NY is going to have some magical rebirth because our taxes are not as bad ...... Let's see thats why cities such as Raleigh and Charlotte And Nashville are booming and why Rochester and Buffalo are on their death beds.

Please tell us what CEO in their right mind would move a business to Rochester NY

Please tell us how many thosands of jobs have left Rochester in just the last 3 years alone. wait it's all naftas fault not NYS outrageous tax rate. sureeeeeeeeee

Fact is IF taxes in this region are not lowered None but senior citizens who have no choich will live here.

How many students at rochester colleges plan on leaving NYS at least HAlf if not more. They say thank you for the diploma now see ya later NY lol.

yea Kodak is not knocking the park down because the tax rate is wonderful . Your probably the only person that thinks NYS taxes are great enjoy paying them lol. enjoy that 8.75 per cent "community solution" sales tax also LMAO

[anEinherjer]

But notacon is the reasonable one around here. He claims I "lie" and that rates do not matter. He's entitled to that opinion, even though he's the only one I've ever read who feels that way. I have no idea why the hell he's so angry he believes I'm "lying". That's just silly.

Fairfax county has the highest taxes per capita in the nation because it has some of the highest property values in the nation. Of course the per capita is going to be high. But that has nothing to do with the price of tea in China, of course. Why should I pay the same amount of tax on a house assessed at 50k as I could on a house assessed at 250k? The only thing that matters to most folks is that if I have a house in Kenmore and another in VA, I pay somewhere around 20% of the rate down south. Let's recall Donn Esmonde's column in the paper a while ago that stated a woman in Kenmore had to pay something over $2k in property taxes (for those of you at home, I can't recall the exact number, I just remember it being almost exactly what I was paying for my $215k townhouse at the time). Right now I can get a nice home in Roanoke VA, where the per capita income is close to Buffalo at $24k. I can get that house for under $100k (search any site online, there are plenty). For that home in Roanoke, I'd pay under $600/yr.

By the way, do you (or anyone else here, I'm genuinely curious) have "the ratio of taxes to per capita income" for upstate NY yet? It's an interesting statistic which is essentially meaningless unless you know what that per capita income is... (over $36k in Fairfax, by the way).

The sad part is, this thread can be so much more than another fight about taxes. It should be about solutions, ideas - what ELSE can be done? What can be done to make Buffalo stand out?

In my mind, Buffalo has to be significantly better than other places in order to attract people. It can't be just as good because that won't entice anyone to show up. We don't have the benefit of great weather, and we can't really do much about that one. What do we have some control over that we can change to entice people to move to Buffalo?

[anEinherjer]

In case anyone's curious, check out http://rkn.buffalo.edu. It has incredible numbers and maps for all kinds of statistical information regarding WNY.

[anEinherjer]

Oh, and to be fair, I found the per capita property tax rate for Prince William to be in the neighborhood of $940. I have no idea why it's not on notacon's list of the top 35. Of course, the statistic is meaningless, but there it is. (2004 property tax ~$329M, population ~348K)

edit: reason it's meaningless: It pays no attention to total income in the county, or total assessed value of property.

[35Pete]

Oh, and to be fair, I found the per capita property tax rate for Prince William to be in the neighborhood of $940. I have no idea why it's not on notacon's list of the top 35. Of course, the statistic is meaningless, but there it is. (2004 property tax ~$329M, population ~348K)

edit: reason it's meaningless: It pays no attention to total income in the county, or total assessed value of property.

Ouuuchhhh! You mean that he might be omitting things to support his case? You wouldn't dare say that would you?

Everyone knows that WNY is undertaxed. The central planners just don't have enough money to make their grand scheme revival work.

I'd go along with notacon here. Multi-faceted approach.

1. Drastically increase taxes on business and industry. They've been screwing the working man for too long.

2. Jack the sales tax up to 14%. Then give it to the NFTA to develop the waterfront.

3. Double the salaries of the gov't union employees. People want first and foremost to live in an area of good government. They pay anything for the privilige. Doubling the salaries attracts the best streetsweepers money can buy.

4. Assess a $3,000,000 start-up fee on incubating new businesses for the privilige of doing business under such a good government. One that cares!

I think that's a good start.