who went to church today?

[sukie]

Just wondering. How does it make you feel? What denomination etc. Curious atheist wants to know.

[35Pete]

I am leaning away from Christianity at a rapid pace. Thinking of joining the Church of Sukie, anEinherjer, and Shiva.

[sukie]

My chalis (sp) is aluminum... 12 fl oz.

[uppy]

I guess I am a Christian ,I go to a Bapist Church in town only on the big Days
or when my Kid hounds me to go.When I was young (in my teens) I was
pretty much a atheist.I started to pray and look for religion when I was in
Jump School in the Army.At frist Jumping scared the shit out of me and I would pray just in case.As time whent on I became more at peace with
my faith and lost my fear.

[sukie]

so you found "baptist"? and your kid hounds you? Clarify that.

[uppy]

so you found "baptist"? and your kid hounds you? Clarify that.

I found the Baptist Church because some of my friends and family go to it.I
was rased a Catholic but I thought the hole thing was dumn when I was
in my teens.

My Kid enjoys going to church and asks me to take her all the time.

[sukie]

I am a recovering catholic.

[ICRockets]

I am a recovering catholic.

I'd say "Amen to that", but in light of the discussion that seems too ironic.

[voicekiller]

i dont believe in organized religions...they are jokes... all they want is your money.

[sukie]

Yup. My opinion as well.

[JoetheDictator]

I went to 1st Baptist Warrensburg, last time there as its my last week at CMSU, but it made me feel uplifted and inspired. The message was on the love of Jesus. As for the churches just want to make money, well this is true-especially of televangelists. IMHO, its not me giving money that I don't like its where does the money go?

[TRIPLE P]

I went to church saturday for a wedding...first time in a long time....I don't mind being at church...its very calming...its just the message thats ****ed up.

[35Pete]

When I step into a church the walls crumble, the crusifix bursts into flames, I get a massive nosebleed and all the nuns giggle and wink at me.

[sukie]

Churches, especially the old gothic stylecatholic churches, are creepy dank and dark.

[JLB]

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen

This is what its all about its not for sale.
Its free you do not need to attend a church either thats the beauty part.
So I say why not hedge your bet.
God Bless you all !!

[uppy]

Thank you

[JoetheDictator]

good post JLB.

[JLB]

Thank you


My pleasure if your referring to my post.
Have a good one. :arizona:

[JLB]

good post JLB.

Thank You Sir !! :arizona:

[GOBILLSGO!!!]

When I step into a church the walls crumble, the crusifix bursts into flames, I get a massive nosebleed and all the nuns giggle and wink at me.
And here I thought I was the only one...

Attending church for me was like listening to the teacher on Charlie Brown. Even when my wife starts discussing how great church was on XYZ day my eyes roll into the back of my head and I just begin hearing a bahing sheep...it is the same message week in and week out "Accept Jesus, YOU WIN! If not, enjoy eternal suffering regardless who and what you do"

I've tried it, didn't like it. I don't appreciate their views nor their close mindedness on issues. They allow a book to lead them by their noses and not act as a guide. And if I'm wrong, well...I'm willing to bet that the bus to "hell" will be packed with far more interesting people.

[Fortunesmith]

I can't deal with hypocrisy, and EVERY church is full of hypocrites. I say live your life as a good person, treat others as you want to be treated and the rest will work itself out.

[CoachC.]

i dont believe in organized religions...they are jokes... all they want is your money.

From Bono and U2's Rattle and Hum Live CD.....and the song Bullet the Blue Sky....

"....and I can't tell the difference between ABC News, Hill Street Blues, and a Preacher in the old time Gospel Hour.....
stealing money from the sick....and the old......

(pause)

Well, the God I believe in isn't short of cash, Mister!"

[smashingt2312]

I am a "christian" but dont believe that spending an hour at church, "donating" to the collection plate and all that, i try to lead a good life, respect my family, friends, try to help others, and overall just try to be a good person. if that doesnt get me into heaven idk what will. Thats how i practice.

[Woody]

I haven't been in a Church in over 7 years. I used to go to Methodist all the time with my parents. It didn't do me much good... since my only focus was to get home in time to see the Jim Kelly(or later Tasker) Pre Game show. That's what it was all about back then. :niterider

[Woody]

Word. You're not alone. Back when I went to Church I thought I'd be better off not going.. since there was alot more drama in the Church then there was in my personal life. :niterider

I can't deal with hypocrisy, and EVERY church is full of hypocrites. I say live your life as a good person, treat others as you want to be treated and the rest will work itself out.

[BillsFan0688]

I am a "christian" but dont believe that spending an hour at church, "donating" to the collection plate and all that, i try to lead a good life, respect my family, friends, try to help others, and overall just try to be a good person. if that doesnt get me into heaven idk what will. Thats how i practice.

+10.

[JLB]

Great Posts all checkout post 15 its mine agree or not thanks?

[35Pete]

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen

This is what its all about its not for sale.
Its free you do not need to attend a church either thats the beauty part.
So I say why not hedge your bet.
God Bless you all !!

I do not believe in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. The same one that tortured jews during the inquisition. The same one that took money for time off in purgatory. The same one that thinks the pope is more special than you or I (Vicar of Christ = "In Place of Christ"). The same one that was complicit in the Nazi death camps in the Balkans. The same one that prays to Mary and the saints.

Biggest racket in the history of mankind in my opinion. How much blood have they spilled in the name of God?

[sukie]

perfectly put. Biggest organized crime entity in the history of man.

[TRIPLE P]

I do not believe in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. The same one that tortured jews during the inquisition. The same one that took money for time off in purgatory. The same one that thinks the pope is more special than you or I (Vicar of Christ = "In Place of Christ). The same one that was complicit in the Nazi death camps in the Balkans. The same one that prays to Mary and the saints.

Biggest racket in the history of mankind in my opinion. How much blood have they spilled in the name of God?


Why bother.... if you were rasied catholic and are STILL catholic there is just something not wired correctly.

I had my doubts, but the day my church (catholic) passed out forms for credit card and direct deposit gifts to the church was my last mass save Christmas and Easter...and thats for my mother.

[35Pete]

perfectly put. Biggest organized crime entity in the history of man.
I reject Catholicism and I wholly reject the Pope and his proclaimed authority. As an ex-catholic I have the moral authority to say that.

[sukie]

I agree. Pew rent my ass.

[matthew94]

hey pete,

the term 'holy catholic church' in the creed above does not really refer to the 'Roman Catholic' Church. The word 'catholic' simply means 'universal'. Thus, the creed means "i believe in the body of Christ, the church worldwide"

[35Pete]

Let something be known here. Religion is part of this forum. Therefore criticism of the tenets of a faith are absolutely fair game, regardless if one get offended by it. It is not a personal attack.

[Norwoodsrevenge]

Glad this was brought up...

I was raised strict Catholic, my wife was raised Hellenic Orthodox. We were married in my church and the last time both of us were in any church together was for our wedding in August of 2002. We moved into our home in 2004 and never joined a parish. My wife is expecting our first child in November and I'm unsure as to how to raise this child. The issue isn't what religion but if any religion. I'm not a religious person, I never pray and I don't even attend mas on holidays so how could I expect my child to? The one aspect of religion that I try to live by is the ten commandments and I'm sure we can all agree that those are good rules to follow.

[TRIPLE P]

My children will not be raised worshipping ANYTHING. I've broken up with 2 long time girlfriends because of this.

Not only the hypocrite angle of me not going to church, but I'm not sure that going to church and praying, and being judged and being told certain things are sins when you are young doesn't effectivly **** you up for the rest of your life.

I want my children to not get brainwashed.

[JLB]

Glad this was brought up...

I was raised strict Catholic, my wife was raised Hellenic Orthodox. We were married in my church and the last time both of us were in any church together was for our wedding in August of 2002. We moved into our home in 2004 and never joined a parish. My wife is expecting our first child in November and I'm unsure as to how to raise this child. The issue isn't what religion but if any religion. I'm not a religious person, I never pray and I don't even attend mas on holidays so how could I expect my child to? The one aspect of religion that I try to live by is the ten commandments and I'm sure we can all agree that those are good rules to follow.

The Ten Commandments !! Great Post !!
:arizona: Only suggestion let your children decide.
I have children three one goes. age 21
I have two grandchildren one loves to go. age 6
Love them absolutely equally.
God Bless You !!
Here`s to your future !! :arizona:

[JLB]

My children will not be raised worshipping ANYTHING. I've broken up with 2 long time girlfriends because of this.

Not only the hypocrite angle of me not going to church, but I'm not sure that going to church and praying, and being judged and being told certain things are sins when you are young doesn't effectivly **** you up for the rest of your life.

I want my children to not get brainwashed.

Nobody wants their children brainwashed agree 100%. :arizona:
Many try to express live by the Golden Rule and let that be their guide.
All the best to you !!

[Fortunesmith]

The one aspect of religion that I try to live by is the ten commandments and I'm sure we can all agree that those are good rules to follow.

Ten Commanments (in layman terms)

1 -God should be first in your life

Nope. That belongs to my kids.

2 - Do not worship graven images of God.

I do not worship images of anything, except the Bills and Sabres.

3 - Do not take the lords name in vain.

You're goddamn right!

4 - The sabbath is for worship.

That would be the day of football.

5 - Honor mom and dad.

No problem.

6 - Do not kill.

Check.

7 - Be faithful to your wife.

If I didn't want to be faithful, I wouldn't have gotten married. Good rule.

8 - Do not steal.

Limewire, anyone?

9 - Do not tell lies.

Some people can't handle the truth.

10 - Do not covet for your neighbors house or belongings.

My neighbor has a 72 inch TV and Xbox 360, I covet those.

[sukie]

:rofl: Limewire and xbox.

[JLB]

I do not believe in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. The same one that tortured jews during the inquisition. The same one that took money for time off in purgatory. The same one that thinks the pope is more special than you or I (Vicar of Christ = "In Place of Christ"). The same one that was complicit in the Nazi death camps in the Balkans. The same one that prays to Mary and the saints.

Biggest racket in the history of mankind in my opinion. How much blood have they spilled in the name of God?

They call him the holy father I feel the way you do about him.
Ok mankind is not to be followed or believed in.
Church attendance definitely not the rule.
The purgatory issue bothers I think everybody.
It suggests you can buy your or maybe its someone else`s way in.
Unless I understand the proposition of purgatory incorrectly.
Your post is how many people feel.
The way it comes down for me is do I believe in God.
Also do I believe Jesus Christ died for my sins.
All the best !!

[JLB]

Ten Commanments (in layman terms)

1 -God should be first in your life

Nope. That belongs to my kids.

2 - Do not worship graven images of God.

I do not worship images of anything, except the Bills and Sabres.

3 - Do not take the lords name in vain.

You're goddamn right!

4 - The sabbath is for worship.

That would be the day of football.

5 - Honor mom and dad.

No problem.

6 - Do not kill.

Check.

7 - Be faithful to your wife.

If I didn't want to be faithful, I wouldn't have gotten married. Good rule.

8 - Do not steal.

Limewire, anyone?

9 - Do not tell lies.

Some people can't handle the truth.

10 - Do not covet for your neighbors house or belongings.

My neighbor has a 72 inch TV and Xbox 360, I covet those.





Number 4 is the key this shows you do not have to attend church. :rofl:
Good Post !! God knows we love football he wants you to enjoy that.

[matthew94]

As one who has attended dozens of churches and is familiar with many more, I can sympathize with most or all of the reasoning stated in this thread as to why people don't attend church. Nobody Christian (hopefully) will argue that their aren't bad churches. Few will argue that there aren't some hypocrites in every church. I won't argue that there are a number of churches more interested in your money than your soul. And I certainly agree that many churches are legalistic, adding to the simple and pure teachings of Jesus.

All the above are good reasons for an outsider to avoid church like the plague. But for me, they are reasons to stay in the church! There is much work to be done. Errors to correct. Legalisms to defeat. Hearts to change. Pride to humble. Laziness to provoke. Etc.

But I will argue with the poster(s) who suggested that everyone in every church is a hypocrite. I've been going to church for 25 years and I know many very genuine believers who truly love all people. They work and struggle just like everyone else. They don't look down on others. They simply try their best to live like Jesus.

Whenever you go to a church, you are actually seeing two churches. There is the institutional church. It is made up of everyone who says "I'm a Christian". Of course, some of them are fakers, hypocrites, legalists, jerks, etc. But there is also the true church. Only God knows for sure who truly believes and follows Him. We can usually tell after spending some time with them that they're for real. My point is, it would be a shame to hate all things church just because the church let's anybody profess to be a believer.

[TRIPLE P]

I never said there aren't true believers....the hypocrite would be me if i forced religion on my children who don't exist :)

[JLB]

As one who has attended dozens of churches and is familiar with many more, I can sympathize with most or all of the reasoning stated in this thread as to why people don't attend church. Nobody Christian (hopefully) will argue that their aren't bad churches. Few will argue that there aren't some hypocrites in every church. I won't argue that there are a number of churches more interested in your money than your soul. And I certainly agree that many churches are legalistic, adding to the simple and pure teachings of Jesus.

All the above are good reasons for an outsider to avoid church like the plague. But for me, they are reasons to stay in the church! There is much work to be done. Errors to correct. Legalisms to defeat. Hearts to change. Pride to humble. Laziness to provoke. Etc.

But I will argue with the poster(s) who suggested that everyone in every church is a hypocrite. I've been going to church for 25 years and I know many very genuine believers who truly love all people. They work and struggle just like everyone else. They don't look down on others. They simply try their best to live like Jesus.

Whenever you go to a church, you are actually seeing two churches. There is the institutional church. It is made up of everyone who says "I'm a Christian". Of course, some of them are fakers, hypocrites, legalists, jerks, etc. But there is also the true church. Only God knows for sure who truly believes and follows Him. We can usually tell after spending some time with them that they're for real. My point is, it would be a shame to hate all things church just because the church let's anybody profess to be a believer.

Fantastic Post !!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Fortunesmith]

As one who has attended dozens of churches and is familiar with many more, I can sympathize with most or all of the reasoning stated in this thread as to why people don't attend church. Nobody Christian (hopefully) will argue that their aren't bad churches. Few will argue that there aren't some hypocrites in every church. I won't argue that there are a number of churches more interested in your money than your soul. And I certainly agree that many churches are legalistic, adding to the simple and pure teachings of Jesus.

All the above are good reasons for an outsider to avoid church like the plague. But for me, they are reasons to stay in the church! There is much work to be done. Errors to correct. Legalisms to defeat. Hearts to change. Pride to humble. Laziness to provoke. Etc.

But I will argue with the poster(s) who suggested that everyone in every church is a hypocrite. I've been going to church for 25 years and I know many very genuine believers who truly love all people. They work and struggle just like everyone else. They don't look down on others. They simply try their best to live like Jesus.

Whenever you go to a church, you are actually seeing two churches. There is the institutional church. It is made up of everyone who says "I'm a Christian". Of course, some of them are fakers, hypocrites, legalists, jerks, etc. But there is also the true church. Only God knows for sure who truly believes and follows Him. We can usually tell after spending some time with them that they're for real. My point is, it would be a shame to hate all things church just because the church let's anybody profess to be a believer.

I stand by my post. Everyone may not be a hypocrite, but the chuch is still full of them. Not that they're all bad people, they just don't practice what is preached. I don't care to live a charade so I could look good in the eyes of other people.

[sukie]

problem is the liberalism that is taught through interpretted symbolisms. Jesus was a liberal in alot of people's eyes.

[35Pete]

What blows my mind is how people pray to Mary and the saints. Are they dieties?? Is God too busy to handle all the traffic?

And the pope, don't get me started on this charlatan. "Holy Father"??? Really? I didn't know a HUMAN BEING could be holy!

And confessing your sins to a priest? Where the hell in the Bible are the instructions to do that? Is he really alone in that little room of his? Or is there an altar boy on his knees "polishing his chalice" listening in too?

[matthew94]

I stand by my post. Everyone may not be a hypocrite, but the chuch is still full of them. Not that they're all bad people, they just don't practice what is preached. I don't care to live a charade so I could look good in the eyes of other people.

Everywhere is full of hypocrites. Do you avoid everywhere? :)

Personally, I'm quite happy hypocrites come to church. Perhaps the true church can make them aware of their hypocrisy. Granted, some churches feed the monster of hypocrisy...but it is not so at our church.

[JoetheDictator]

I can't deal with hypocrisy, and EVERY church is full of hypocrites. I say live your life as a good person, treat others as you want to be treated and the rest will work itself out.


wow, I really need to send you a file of my pastor's sermon from this sunday. He would agree with you entirely.

[JoetheDictator]

hey matty how's it going? I haven't seen you in these parts in a long while. Anyway what you are saying is true of my church. The sad thing with the church is that it tends to be full of two types of people.

Type one: Church people, these people are hypocrites and my favorite take on them is "Saved" staring the kid from the original home alone films. These people give the church and christians a bad name because when they **** up they don't admit it. Nor do they do anything that Christ tells them to, see taking care of the poor, being humble, showing kindness to others, turning the other cheek, trying to make peace with others, living an honorable life style. No these are the ones Christ would put in the pharisee camp. They are the ones you see on TBN and are the ones that want you to send them outrageous amounts of money even when you could do much better with your money by giving it to the poor --that is helping someone with their groceries, helping them pay the rent, buying gas, paying their utility bills -- than giving it to the reverend hairspray so that he can keep his message on the air and get his hairspray pumped on by the gallon.

Type Two: This is the person that follows Christ. This is the type that is a hypocrite, but sees it and seeks help and forgiveness from God and his neighbor because of it. This is the type that gives to the poor, that lives a life of love unto others. That is not sinless, but sins less. This type of person makes others go wow, that is one cool person that serves a cool God. This person is sniped at by the church people because he doesn't live a religious life but a Godly life.

[JoeMama]

Intelligent people have no need for God or religion.

[matthew94]

Intelligent people throughout world history have disagreed with Joemama

[JoeMama]

Intelligent people throughout world history have disagreed with Joemama

They obviously weren't that intelligent then.

Educated, enlightened people don't believe in invisible cloud men & talking snakes.

[matthew94]

hey matty how's it going? I haven't seen you in these parts in a long while.

Type one: Church people, these people are hypocrites and my favorite take on them is "Saved"

I look around, but I don't have much hope for politics...so there's not usually much to comment on

I saw the movie 'Saved'. In fact, I am currently dating Jena Malone from that movie. Either that or I'm just trying to make joe jealous.

[JoetheDictator]

Intelligent people throughout world history have disagreed with Joemama

Correct.

[matthew94]

They obviously weren't that intelligent then.

Educated, enlightened people don't believe in invisible cloud men & talking snakes.

Always with the 'cloud men' and 'talking snakes'

We've had this discussion before, so I'll spare you the re-run

[JoeMama]

Always with the 'cloud men' and 'talking snakes'

We've had this discussion before, so I'll spare you the re-run

LOL!

Believe me, I remember.

"The snake didn't talk, Satan used the snake as a microphone!"

You don't forget something that hilarious.

[matthew94]

You categorically deny a spiritual realm because you cannot see it

But there are many things you have not seen that you choose to believe in

If you think the evidence for God is weak, that's your decision. Of course, I think you're either lying to yourself, looking in the wrong places, or holding the idea of faith to a much higher standard than you hold all other things.

[JoeMama]

You categorically deny a spiritual realm because you cannot see it

But there are many things you have not seen that you choose to believe in

If you think the evidence for God is weak, that's your decision. Of course, I think you're either lying to yourself, looking in the wrong places, or holding the idea of faith to a much higher standard than you hold all other things.

I don't deny a spiritual realm because I can't "see" it.

I deny it because it's a silly & childish concept.

Belief in God is a mental disorder.

You can't be a SANE person & also believe in invisible cloud men, magical flying angels, mean ol' demons, talking snakes, magical trees, people turned into pillars of salt, men living inside whales, men rising from the dead, etc.

It's such a crock of D&D bullshit.

And I can say that with full confidence because I can successfully differentiate between reality & make believe.

[K-Gun]

Belief in God is a mental disorder.


Then so is the belief in gravity.

[matthew94]

I think believing in God is quite reasonable.

If I'm walking down the street and I see a wallet. And I open it up and see money stacked neatly in 1 section, cards in individual slots and pictures placed nicely in plastic sleeves...I assume the wallet belongs to somebody. And I assume that somebody, at some point, made it. When I look at the world. I see order and purpose. It would be unreasonable for me to assume that nobody made it and that nobody owned it.

You may have a problem with all of the worlds religions. You may think they are all stupid. But I think it is quite unreasonable for you to find belief in God to be 'stupid', 'childish' or a 'mental disorder'

Perhaps some stupid people believe in God
Perhaps some childish people believe in God
Perhaps some crazy people believe in God
And perhaps many believe in God for the wrong reasons

But millions of intelligent people throughout history have believed in God because they used their minds and their senses and determined it to be a reasonable thing to believe. You are free to disagree, but it is quite 'childish' of you to pretend they are all idiots.

[TRIPLE P]

I don't deny a spiritual realm because I can't "see" it.

I deny it because it's a silly & childish concept.

Belief in God is a mental disorder.

You can't be a SANE person & also believe in invisible cloud men, magical flying angels, mean ol' demons, talking snakes, magical trees, people turned into pillars of salt, men living inside whales, men rising from the dead, etc.

It's such a crock of D&D bullshit.

And I can say that with full confidence because I can successfully differentiate between reality & make believe.


I agree with you on this..... but i read something the other day from Descartes 2nd meditation that was kinda interesting to think about....

Basically that you can't 100% disprove religion because it is at least possible that there is a devil or demon that is giving me my false belief and twisting my reality so that I cannot see God, or feel his presence......

I know that angels snakes and the rest seem silly but I can't say for sure that I'm not being mislead into think they are silly by the devil.......

That being said, I think its silly and don't plan on praying anytime soon.

[K-Gun]

I think believing in God is quite reasonable.

If I'm walking down the street and I see a wallet. And I open it up and see money stacked neatly in 1 section, cards in individual slots and pictures placed nicely in plastic sleeves...I assume the wallet belongs to somebody. And I assume that somebody, at some point, made it. When I look at the world. I see order and purpose. It would be unreasonable for me to assume that nobody made it and that nobody owned it.

You may have a problem with all of the worlds religions. You may think they are all stupid. But I think it is quite unreasonable for you to find belief in God to be 'stupid', 'childish' or a 'mental disorder'

Perhaps some stupid people believe in God
Perhaps some childish people believe in God
Perhaps some crazy people believe in God
And perhaps many believe in God for the wrong reasons

But millions of intelligent people throughout history have believed in God because they used their minds and their senses and determined it to be a reasonable thing to believe. You are free to disagree, but it is quite 'childish' of you to pretend they are all idiots.

I guess Albert Einstein and Steven Hawking are unintelligent people with mental disorders.

[TRIPLE P]

I think believing in God is quite reasonable.

If I'm walking down the street and I see a wallet. And I open it up and see money stacked neatly in 1 section, cards in individual slots and pictures placed nicely in plastic sleeves...I assume the wallet belongs to somebody. And I assume that somebody, at some point, made it. When I look at the world. I see order and purpose. It would be unreasonable for me to assume that nobody made it and that nobody owned it.

You may have a problem with all of the worlds religions. You may think they are all stupid. But I think it is quite unreasonable for you to find belief in God to be 'stupid', 'childish' or a 'mental disorder'

Perhaps some stupid people believe in God
Perhaps some childish people believe in God
Perhaps some crazy people believe in God
And perhaps many believe in God for the wrong reasons

But millions of intelligent people throughout history have believed in God because they used their minds and their senses and determined it to be a reasonable thing to believe. You are free to disagree, but it is quite 'childish' of you to pretend they are all idiots.


Maybe not stupid, or childish.... but definatly fearful. I see no reason to believe in God other than for the fear of death and what potentially comes after.

[pigpen65]

You are free to disagree, but it is quite 'childish' of you to pretend they are all idiots.


People who worship Satan are idiots IMHO.

[JoeMama]

Then so is the belief in gravity.

Gravity is a scientific fact.

God is an invisible cloud man.

No correlation.

[K-Gun]

People who worship Satan are idiots IMHO.

like Donald Rumsfeld?

[K-Gun]

Gravity is a scientific fact.



no it isn't. It's a made up story we gave for the reason why things fall down.

[JoeMama]

I think believing in God is quite reasonable.

No shit.

I know that YOU think it's reasonable to believe in God.

I also know you find it "reasonable" to believe in silly things such as dinosaurs & man co-existing like in the Flinstones, a worldwide flood that's impossible since there isn't enough water on the planet to cover earth's surface, & talking snakes. Always with the talking snakes.

So it's not like I take your definition of "reasonable" very seriously.

You may have a problem with all of the worlds religions. You may think they are all stupid. But I think it is quite unreasonable for you to find belief in God to be 'stupid', 'childish' or a 'mental disorder'

Perhaps some stupid people believe in God
Perhaps some childish people believe in God
Perhaps some crazy people believe in God
And perhaps many believe in God for the wrong reasons

But millions of intelligent people throughout history have believed in God because they used their minds and their senses and determined it to be a reasonable thing to believe. You are free to disagree, but it is quite 'childish' of you to pretend they are all idiots.

Even highly intelligent people do & say incredibly stupid things.

Safety in numbers isn't much of an excuse.

[matthew94]

I think there are many intelligent people in every major worldview whether it be theism, agnosticism, or atheism. There are also many stupid people in each worldview.

Every one of Joe's arguments is a straw man in my opinion

[JoeMama]

Every one of Joe's arguments is a straw man in my opinion

Speaking of which...

If there were men who were literally made out of straw in the Bible, you'd believe in them unquestionably.

[K-Gun]

Speaking of which...

If there were men who were literally made out of straw in the Bible, you'd believe in them unquestionably.

You just take this topic personally because most churches are so homophobic. :)

[matthew94]

by the way joe,

Christianity is not based on evidence-less belief in a spiritual realm

It is based on the historical record of a man named Jesus who lived, died, and rose again in the Mideast about 2000 years ago. The evidence (or lack thereof) for the life and times of Jesus is present for any reasonable person to investigate.

[JoeMama]

Super.

If I ever get the urge to remove my brain & dispose of all rational thought, I'll look into that crap.

[JoeMama]

You just take this topic personally because most churches are so homophobic. :)

LOL!

Luckily for me, homosexuality is a choice, so I can always go straight any time I want to avoid the cleansing wrath of God.

[sahlensguy]

Good discussions/arguments/laughter...

Anyway, I attended yesterday (WELS Lutheran) and received communion.

Not becuase I felt worthy, but becuase Jesus died for my sins, and that is awesome.

[TRIPLE P]

Good discussions/arguments/laughter...

Anyway, I attended yesterday (WELS Lutheran) and received communion.

Not becuase I felt worthy, but becuase Jesus died for my sins, and that is awesome.


I've never sinned so i don't need it.

[TRIPLE P]

LOL!

Luckily for me, homosexuality is a choice, so I can always go straight any time I want to avoid the cleansing wrath of God.

Ha.....

So much religious rhetoric seems like intentional ignorance.

[JLB]

I've never sinned so i don't need it.


:rofl: Please !!!

[K-Gun]

LOL!

Luckily for me, homosexuality is a choice, so I can always go straight any time I want to avoid the cleansing wrath of God.

Here you go Joey, i hear flights to Memphis are cheap this time of year.

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/8-25-2005-75500.asp

[sahlensguy]

I've never sinned so i don't need it.

You don't need what, church, communion??

Either way you do neither to be saved. If you did it would be an act of works.

I think you do both as a way to say thanks.

[35Pete]

Good discussions/arguments/laughter...

Anyway, I attended yesterday (WELS Lutheran) and received communion.

Not becuase I felt worthy, but becuase Jesus died for my sins, and that is awesome.
So a chunk of bread in the old piehole cleanses your soul and makes you pure?

[twosheds]

Going to church hurts the economy, it's time you could have spent working.

[twosheds]

I think there are many intelligent people in every major worldview whether it be theism, agnosticism, or atheism. There are also many stupid people in each worldview.

That's true. Theists are still wrong, though. :D ;)

[sahlensguy]

So a chunk of bread in the old piehole cleanses your soul and makes you pure?

Partaking in communion has no such effects on the communicant.

It is a merely way to honor Him by beign his guest at His table.

[35Pete]

I love the ritualism. Really get a kick out of it. I remember in Catholic church growing up all the chanting, shaking hands (WTF is that? How about a high 5 or a good old backslap? LOL), reciting the oath to the church, chewing on that disgusting wafer, a billion Hail Mary's and being awed by more gold in that church than Fort Knox. (Don't you dare give that to the poor. Jesus loves his gold!!).

Going to confession. Me and the boys just gangbanged a 19 year old virgin catholic girl (with her consent of course :D) and what is the penalty? 32 Hail Marys, 17 Our Fathers, 23 Acts of Contrition, and $45 in the pot for Rome.

God I love that faith!

[sahlensguy]

I love the ritualism. Really get a kick out of it. I remember in Catholic church growing up all the chanting, shaking hands (WTF is that? How about a high 5 or a good old backslap? LOL), reciting the oath to the church, chewing on that disgusting wafer, a billion Hail Mary's and being awed by more gold in that church than Fort Knox. (Don't you dare give that to the poor. Jesus loves his gold!!).

Going to confession. Me and the boys just gangbanged a 19 year old virgin catholic girl (with her consent of course :D) and what is the penalty? 32 Hail Marys, 17 Our Fathers, 23 Acts of Contrition, and $45 in the pot for Rome.

God I love that faith!

Sounds like you might like Luthernism?

It's more one on one with God. Cuts out the middleman...

[Lucidvizion]

Intelligent people don't believe in god? False.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2220484,00.html

I’ve found God, says man who cracked the genome

Steven Swinford


THE scientist who led the team that cracked the human genome is to publish a book explaining why he now believes in the existence of God and is convinced that miracles are real.
Francis Collins, the director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute, claims there is a rational basis for a creator and that scientific discoveries bring man “closer to God”.



His book, The Language of God, to be published in September, will reopen the age-old debate about the relationship between science and faith. “One of the great tragedies of our time is this impression that has been created that science and religion have to be at war,” said Collins, 56.

“I don’t see that as necessary at all and I think it is deeply disappointing that the shrill voices that occupy the extremes of this spectrum have dominated the stage for the past 20 years.”

For Collins, unravelling the human genome did not create a conflict in his mind. Instead, it allowed him to “glimpse at the workings of God”.

“When you make a breakthrough it is a moment of scientific exhilaration because you have been on this search and seem to have found it,” he said. “But it is also a moment where I at least feel closeness to the creator in the sense of having now perceived something that no human knew before but God knew all along.

“When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1 billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can’t survey that going through page after page without a sense of awe. I can’t help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God’s mind.”

Collins joins a line of scientists whose research deepened their belief in God. Isaac Newton, whose discovery of the laws of gravity reshaped our understanding of the universe, said: “This most beautiful system could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful being.”

Although Einstein revolutionised our thinking about time, gravity and the conversion of matter to energy, he believed the universe had a creator. “I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details,” he said. However Galileo was famously questioned by the inquisition and put on trial in 1633 for the “heresy” of claiming that the earth moved around the sun.

..more..

Just thought I'd add fuel to the fire :)

[JLB]

I love the ritualism. Really get a kick out of it. I remember in Catholic church growing up all the chanting, shaking hands (WTF is that? How about a high 5 or a good old backslap? LOL), reciting the oath to the church, chewing on that disgusting wafer, a billion Hail Mary's and being awed by more gold in that church than Fort Knox. (Don't you dare give that to the poor. Jesus loves his gold!!).

Going to confession. Me and the boys just gangbanged a 19 year old virgin catholic girl (with her consent of course :D) and what is the penalty? 32 Hail Marys, 17 Our Fathers, 23 Acts of Contrition, and $45 in the pot for Rome.

God I love that faith!

With all that pressure I am surprised your still around.
Hint the $45 was not required.
Be brave when you finally meet your maker he will ask only one question.
If you can keep a straight face you gotta shot.
Good Luck with all that.

Of course it would be helpful to know the answer to the question.
The answer as they like to call him up there is. Jesus Christ S.O.G. :arizona:

[JLB]

Sounds like you might like Luthernism?

It's more one on one with God. Cuts out the middleman...


Thats the one it does not come with all that extra crap.
Martin Luther rebelled against the catholic church interesting guy.

Great Suggestion !!

[shiva2999]

...They simply try their best to live like Jesus.

This is the key.

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Jesus is telling you that if you behave like a decent human being (with himself as the template) you have found salvation, whether you believe or not.

[shiva2999]

You don't need what, church, communion??

Either way you do neither to be saved. If you did it would be an act of works.

I think you do both as a way to say thanks.

Jesus valued works.

Paul pimped faith.

Christianity is really Paulism.

[sahlensguy]

This is the key.

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Jesus is telling you that if you behave like a decent human being (with himself as the template) you have found salvation, whether you believe or not.

Well that post is a pretty liberal interpretation, to say the least...

[sahlensguy]

Jesus valued works.

Paul pimped faith.

Christianity is really Paulism.

Paulism always leads to down the road to Damascus here and has gone round and round.

I just doubt that God would allow Satan to have a stranglehold on Bible follows for two thousand years, over your assumption that Paul made his vision up.

[JLB]

This is the key.

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Jesus is telling you that if you behave like a decent human being (with himself as the template) you have found salvation, whether you believe or not.



Bravo Shiva !!

It makes it simple he is the WAY period.
Now in the words of Howie Deal Or No Deal !!
Believe or parish thats the hook !!
There is no choice on the believing part.

[matthew94]

If one sees a difference between the teachings of Jesus and Paul....certainly take Jesus. But, in my opinion, the more one studies Jesus, the better one will understand Paul. It seems to me that much of the church mis-interprets both Jesus and Paul.

[shiva2999]

Well that post is a pretty liberal interpretation, to say the least...

The parable of the Good Samaritan, the parable of the Prodigal Son, the Sermon on the Mount.

All liberal sentiments.

IMO, there is no one more beloved of God than a righteous unbeliever.

[shiva2999]

I just doubt that God would allow Satan to have a stranglehold on Bible follows for two thousand years, over your assumption that Paul made his vision up.

I don't see why not.

It's a test.

Do you understand what his only begotten son said or would you rather believe what a mass murderer said?

Works are tough.

Belief is easy.

[uppy]

The Prodigal Son in the end came home....Faith is harder then works.

[JoeMama]

IMO, there is no one more beloved of God than a righteous unbeliever.

I'm with you on that.

Everything always works out for me, so I'm assuming that if there is a God, he/she definitely favors me.

[sahlensguy]

I don't see why not.

It's a test.

It's your test/trick?

Do you understand what his only begotten son said or would you rather believe what a mass murderer said?

Like I said, I doubt God would have allowed Satan a leg up by letting this to be in the Bible for 2000 years.

Works are tough.

Damned right they are.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

The tougher the works the more one can boast.

Belief is easy.

Bull.

Ask Joe.

[sahlensguy]

I'm with you on that.

Everything always works out for me, so I'm assuming that if there is a God, he/she definitely favors me.

And if there was a Devil, how do you know he's not the one giving you the illusion things are working out.

The Bills win the SB yet?

[JLB]

I'm with you on that.

Everything always works out for me, so I'm assuming that if there is a God, he/she definitely favors me.



You must believe he died for your sins.

[shiva2999]

It's your test/trick?



Like I said, I doubt God would have allowed Satan a leg up by letting this to be in the Bible for 2000 years.



Damned right they are.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

The tougher the works the more one can boast.



Bull.

Ask Joe.

1. Not my test. God's test. He has been known to test people, has he not?

2. Doubt it if you wish, as your doubt fulfills your wish.

3. Ephesians was written by Paul.

4. Well, I can ask Joe who has struggled with the question, or I can ask millions of others who haven't.

[shiva2999]

You must believe he died for your sins.

Jesus never said this.

Paul did.

[sahlensguy]

1. Not my test. God's test. He has been known to test people, has he not?

2. Doubt it if you wish, as your doubt fulfills your wish.

3. Ephesians was written by Paul.

4. Well, I can ask Joe who has struggled with the question, or I can ask millions of others who haven't.

1.God's test?? That's a pretty big ruse. One that would catch far, far more Christians than not. Doubt He wants it that way.

2.Same to you.

3.Yeah, so?

4.So many others have struggled with it that saying "belief is easy" is just not true.

[sahlensguy]

Jesus never said this.

Paul did.

Can't say Jesus was pompous.

[JLB]

The parable of the Good Samaritan, the parable of the Prodigal Son, the Sermon on the Mount.

All liberal sentiments.

IMO, there is no one more beloved of God than a righteous unbeliever.

How do you put righteous and unbeliever together?

[shiva2999]

How do you put righteous and unbeliever together?

Matthew

10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

[shiva2999]

1.God's test?? That's a pretty big ruse. One that would catch far, far more Christians than not. Doubt He wants it that way.

2.Same to you.

3.Yeah, so?

4.So many others have struggled with it that saying "belief is easy" is just not true.

1. Indeed he would. Doubt at your leisure.

2. Not true. I would love to believe in a Heavenly Father. It would make so many things much easier.

3. The Road to Damascus.

4. Belief is easier than deeds. Absolutely true. Just take a look at the number of people who use the "it's smarter to believe than not believe" rationalization.

[shiva2999]

Matthew

5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
5:47
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Nothing about belief.

Everything about behaviour.

[JLB]

Matthew

10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

These quotes you share are truly righteous "believers". The scriptures in the Living Bible, verse 41 says that "if you welcome a prophet because he is a man of GOD, you will be given the same reward a prophet gets". (This is a believer). Verse 42 says, "And if, as my representatives, you give even a cup of cold water to a little child, you will surely be rewarded". (This does not refer to an unbeliever). Thank goodness God loves even rightous believers along your so called rightous unbelievers. God loves us ALL.

[shiva2999]

These quotes you share are truly righteous "believers". The scriptures in the Living Bible, verse 41 says that "if you welcome a prophet because he is a man of GOD, you will be given the same reward a prophet gets". (This is a believer). Verse 42 says, "And if, as my representatives, you give even a cup of cold water to a little child, you will surely be rewarded". (This does not refer to an unbeliever). Thank goodness God loves even rightous believers along your so called rightous unbelievers. God loves us ALL.

I'd rather refer to the King James version, rather than some massaged version, thank you.

They know the problems that the KJV version proposes, that's why they changed it.

[JLB]

Jesus never said this.

Paul did.


Let me share with you what Jesus did say in John 8:21 "I am going away; and you will search for me, and die in your SINS. And you cannot come where I am going." John 8:23 "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not. John 8:24 "That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am the Messiah, the Son of God, you will die in your SINS".

Jesus died for these sins of ours so that we could be united with God.
Even though this book of John was written by John the Apostle, these scriptures were Jesus' words. For us to believe this, we must have faith and that is what it is all about.

[JLB]

I'd rather refer to the King James version, rather than some massaged version, thank you.

They know the problems that the KJV version proposes, that's why they changed it.


Some people need different versions to understand the TRUTH. If you want to be correct the KJV is not the original version! Do you read Hebrew?

[shiva2999]

Let me share with you what Jesus did say in John 8:21 "I am going away; and you will search for me, and die in your SINS. And you cannot come where I am going." John 8:23 "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not. John 8:24 "That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am the Messiah, the Son of God, you will die in your SINS".

Jesus died for these sins of ours so that we could be united with God.
Even though this book of John was written by John the Apostle, these scriptures were Jesus' words. For us to believe this, we must have faith and that is what it is all about.

These are still perfectly understandable metaphors in context of what is happening in John 8. Jesus is tearing a strip off his fellow Jews for being wilfully stupid and selfish. Jesus is the avatar of eternal love, kindness and a belief in mans' potential for good. The Jews questioning him are using stupid and self centered sophistries to argue with him, much like when the right argues with me. And sure it's a sin, because being a jerk is a sin.

Read this from further on...

28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

30As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[shiva2999]

Some people need different versions to understand the TRUTH. If you want to be correct the KJV is not the original version! Do you read Hebrew?

The KJV is still da bomb, it doesn't need to be dumbed down.

But if you want to go back we can discuss who wrote the various different gospels and other testaments and when and how they were assembled.

I'm down for that.

We've done it all before here.

Take it from me.

"Christianity" is the world's oldest surviving right wing conspiracy.

And St Paul was gay and hated women.

[uppy]

and the truth shall make you free.[/B]

:rofl:

the irony

life is good

[shiva2999]

:rofl:

the irony

life is good

I'll see you in hell pal.

[uppy]

I'll see you in hell pal.

You are wrong..however you will see your pals....the freedom fighters...lol

[35Pete]

Shiva. You are absolutely at your finest when twisting the "faith". The problem with Paulism is that you are "saved by the blood of Christ alone". Which means that no acts of faith (i.e good deeds) can save you from the wrath of the Pope, errr....Satan. Nice copout here. Burn a few jews in the Balkans in the name of Christ or beat a few gays to death and all is forgiven. Kinda nice huh? Get out of Hades Free Card. All you need to do is say "I believe!"

[uppy]

Well said Pete

[JoetheDictator]

like Donald Rumsfeld?

no, I mean everyone agrees that you have to believe in yourself. When the reichmarschall worships satan he's just worshiping his ego.

[JoetheDictator]

Going to church hurts the economy, it's time you could have spent working.

hmmm, please don't give pat and the fundybunnies this idea.

[JLB]

[QUOTE=shiva2999]These are still perfectly understandable metaphors in context of what is happening in John 8. Jesus is tearing a strip off his fellow Jews for being wilfully stupid and selfish. Jesus is the avatar of eternal love, kindness and a belief in mans' potential for good. The Jews questioning him are using stupid and self centered sophistries to argue with him, much like when the right argues with me. And sure it's a sin, because being a jerk is a sin.

Read this from further on...

28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

30As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.[/QUOTE

Your statement was that Paul, not Jesus said that He died for our sins. My answer was simply letting you know that Jesus does speak about our sins! Those are the words of Jesus I quoted. Why do you think he died?
God even loves the left! My prayer for you is that you continue to read your KJV and find peaceful faith in your Lord.

[uppy]

"Christianity" is the world's oldest surviving right wing conspiracy.

And St Paul was gay and hated women.

The entertainment is endless ... this is the best fourm around.

Thankyou guys for putting up with a Pats fan.

[shiva2999]

Shiva. You are absolutely at your finest when twisting the "faith". The problem with Paulism is that you are "saved by the blood of Christ alone". Which means that no acts of faith (i.e good deeds) can save you from the wrath of the Pope, errr....Satan. Nice copout here. Burn a few jews in the Balkans in the name of Christ or beat a few gays to death and all is forgiven. Kinda nice huh? Get out of Hades Free Card. All you need to do is say "I believe!"

Thank you for the complement.

As I've said before, if I did believe in God and that Jesus was the Son of God, then I'd have to conclude it was Satan that spoke to his follower, Saul of Tarses, on the road to Damascus and charged him with the evil joke of establishing the world's most perverse and murderous religion in the name of the guy who came to clue everyone in.

[shiva2999]

My prayer for you is that you continue to read your KJV and find peaceful faith in your Lord.

I take strength from eternal values.

[JLB]

The KJV is still da bomb, it doesn't need to be dumbed down.

But if you want to go back we can discuss who wrote the various different gospels and other testaments and when and how they were assembled.

I'm down for that.

We've done it all before here.

Take it from me.

"Christianity" is the world's oldest surviving right wing conspiracy.

And St Paul was gay and hated women.

For thinking that the KJV is da bomb - you have a lot of issues you need to resolve. Keep reading your KJV (I have one too). To be open minded, you should have as many versions as you can and feed your mind with all versions. God speaks to all in many different ways. If you think Christianity is the world's oldest surviving right wing conspiracy - why is there so many left wing politicians that attend church? I have many left wing friends that I dare say are Christians (the Pastor at our church!)

[JLB]

I take strength from eternal values.

POST 126 IS MY QUOTE, NOT YOURS. My prayer for you is that you continue to read your KJV and find peaceful faith in your Lord. I will continue to pray for you.

[shiva2999]

If you think Christianity is the world's oldest surviving right wing conspiracy - why is there so many left wing politicians that attend church? I have many left wing friends that I dare say are Christians (the Pastor at our church!)

Why?

Because they're mentally ill, like all religious people.

[JLB]

Thank you for the complement.

As I've said before, if I did believe in God and that Jesus was the Son of God, then I'd have to conclude it was Satan that spoke to his follower, Saul of Tarses, on the road to Damascus and charged him with the evil joke of establishing the world's most perverse and murderous religion in the name of the guy who came to clue everyone in.

Your so called knowledge of the Bible has hardened your heart. Faith in Jesus as your savior will set you free. Allow the words of God to soften your hardened heart and you will find yourself a much happier person. Are you at peace with your life?

[JoetheDictator]

Shiva let me put it to you this way, on this thread JLB OWNS you.

[shiva2999]

POST 126 IS MY QUOTE, NOT YOURS. My prayer for you is that you continue to read your KJV and find peaceful faith in your Lord. I will continue to pray for you.

I know that.

Kind thoughts are always appreciated.

[JLB]

Why?

Because they're mentally ill, like all religious people.

Please do not degrade any Pastor as being mentally ill. I dare say that the left wing people along with the right wing that I have the pleasure of knowing, are much happier and mentally healtier than you seem to be. God be with you.

[shiva2999]

Are you at peace with your life?

Of course not.

Life is always a struggle with our baser nature.

[shiva2999]

Shiva let me put it to you this way, on this thread JLB OWNS you.

It's not a contest Gibby. Try and learn something for a change.

[uppy]

Shiva let me put it to you this way, on this thread JLB OWNS you.

Yup

[shiva2999]

Please do not degrade any Pastor as being mentally ill. I dare say that the left wing people along with the right wing that I have the pleasure of knowing, are much happier and mentally healtier than you seem to be. God be with you.

Do you consider mental illness to be degrading in and of itself?

[uppy]

It's not a contest Gibby. Try and learn something for a change.

You have talked some in this fourm away from their faith....its a contest
to you.

[JLB]

Of course not.

Life is always a struggle with our baser nature.

Then there is Good News for you - become a Christian and you will find peace in your life and become a much happier person. My life if filled with many blessings and through the ruff times, God is there to hold me up and see me through. God be with you.

[shiva2999]

Yup

John 8:

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

[JLB]

Do you consider mental illness to be degrading in and of itself?

Of couse not! You do love to argue don't you? Mental illness is not applicable to your statement of Christian people. Those who suffer from mental illness are also loved by God. I am safe to say that my Pastor along with others I mentioned do not suffer from mental illness. God be with you.

[JLB]

You have talked some in this fourm away from their faith....its a contest
to you.

Don't worry - he cannot succeed in this contest of his. God will always prevail.

[shiva2999]

Then there is Good News for you - become a Christian and you will find peace in your life and become a much happier person. My life if filled with many blessings and through the ruff times, God is there to hold me up and see me through. God be with you.

Happiness is not a priority to me.

Being a decent human being is.

[shiva2999]

Of couse not! You do love to argue don't you? Mental illness is not applicable to your statement of Christian people. Those who suffer from mental illness are also loved by God. I am safe to say that my Pastor along with others I mentioned do not suffer from mental illness. God be with you.

If you don't then why do you characterize my assessment of religious (not exclusively Christian) people as degrading?

Just because people are mentally ill does not mean they aren't good and intelligent people overall.

[JLB]

Happiness is not a priority to me.

Being a decent human being is.

Then I have more Good News - you can have happiness and be a decent human being! Hurray for you. God be with you.

[shiva2999]

You have talked some in this fourm away from their faith....

I haven't talked anyone away from anything.

I post my thoughts. People take from them what they will.

[shiva2999]

Then I have more Good News - you can have happiness and be a decent human being! Hurray for you. God be with you.

I can do that with Prozac too.

Should I worship the pharmaceutical companies?

[JLB]

I haven't talked anyone away from anything.

I post my thoughts. People take from them what they will.

You are right - these are your thoughts but thank goodness what you speak only strenghtens our belief and causes us to pray for you and your happiness. God be with you.

[JLB]

I can do that with Prozac too.

Should I worship the pharmaceutical companies?

Only if the pharmaceutical companies can give you eternal life! Happiness is a free gift from God, how much does your Prozac cost? God be with you.

[shiva2999]

Only if the pharmaceutical companies can give you eternal life! Happiness is a free gift from God, how much does your Prozac cost? God be with you.

If I deserve happiness it will find me.

If I don't it would only be illusory.

[shiva2999]

Only if the pharmaceutical companies can give you eternal life! Happiness is a free gift from God, how much does your Prozac cost? God be with you.

Prozac doesn't cost me anything because I can deal with the results of my actions.

It's called taking personal responsibility, something that Paulism was created to avoid.

[uppy]

I haven't talked anyone away from anything.

I post my thoughts. People take from them what they will.


I must have been dreaming

[shiva2999]

I must have been dreaming

You do that a lot.

[JLB]

If I deserve happiness it will find me.

If I don't it would only be illusory.

Then don't pay for the Prozac! Good News again - God believes we all deserve happiness, so smile and save your money. God be with you.

[JoeMama]

And if there was a Devil, how do you know he's not the one giving you the illusion things are working out.


Think about it.

I bet Jesus prefers a guy like me - who keeps it real - over a bunch of pathetic kissups.

No all knowing deity would put a "dorks only" sign on heaven's gate.

[shiva2999]

Then don't pay for the Prozac! Good News again - God believes we all deserve happiness, so smile and save your money. God be with you.

I wish God believed we all deserved higher IQs.

[JLB]

Prozac doesn't cost me anything because I can deal with the results of my actions.

It's called taking personal responsibility, something that Paulism was created to avoid.

You do like to twist your words, don't you! You were the one who brought up prozac my friend. So glad you can take personal responsibility! Paulism as you put it is a childish comment. If you call sharing the Good News and love that Jesus came here to give us as Paulism - God bless you. How you put happiness and taking personl responsibility together in the same response is beyond me. Christians do not have their eyes closed, they are just at peace with themselves and are there to help others - are you? God be with you.

[JLB]

I wish God believed we all deserved higher IQs.

Thank God He accepts and welcomes all no matter how high their IQ. You are welcomed! God be with you.

[JoeMama]

Bull.

Ask Joe.

Dude, I think I gave you the wrong impression about my past.

Even when I went to church as a youngblood, I still couldn't stand fundies.

And sure, I had some bizarre right wing viewpoints as a kiddo; but again, not to the point where I was a fundie myself.

When I was 14, I was dating a girl that coaxed me into accompanying her to youth group.

So I get there.

Right from the get-go, there's a bunch of dudes hugging & crying in these huddled up little circles.

Kind of like a huddle in football but only consisting of 4 or 5 guys & WAY gayer.

They all started sobbing & twirling in circles like some kind of ****ed up cult.

That's when this girl turns to me & asks, "Are you ready to be saved, Joey?"

I cracked up so hard I almost cried too.

I was like, "Holy shit, are kidding me? No way."

And that was the end of that innocent little relationship.

[shiva2999]

Paulism as you put it is a childish comment.

No it isn't. Go back to what Jesus said about liars then read this...

Romans 3

7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

[JLB]

Shiva let me put it to you this way, on this thread JLB OWNS you.

Your kind words are appreciated. What's great is - God is the victor! God be with you.

[shiva2999]

Dude, I think I gave you the wrong impression about my past.

It was Sahlensguy who said that.

[shiva2999]

Your kind words are appreciated. What's great is - God is the victor! God be with you.

Onward Christian soldier.

[JLB]

Onward Christian soldier.

Thank You !! God be with you!!

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

Intelligent people have no need for God or religion.

I wouldn't say it's any kind of lock that I qualify as intelligent, but I find that I need God.

He simply isn't there.

[JLB]

I wouldn't say it's any kind of lock that I qualify as intelligent, but I find that I need God.

He simply isn't there.

He is there my friend.
All you have to do is talk to Him.
Seek a pastor for further help.
God be with you.

[JoeMama]

It was Sahlensguy who said that.

Whoops.

You've called me an ex-fundie a few times. I figured it was you for some reason.

[JoeMama]

I wouldn't say it's any kind of lock that I qualify as intelligent, but I find that I need God.

He simply isn't there.

That's kind of haunting & strange coming from you.

You're Ry Opti, man.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

He is there my friend.
All you have to do is talk to Him.
Seek a pastor for further help.
God be with you.

I asked him for a shiny new Huffy last Christmas and all I got was a can of car wash foam and a sponge, plus a standing order to clean my daddy's Lebaron whenever I got a C or better in school.

[JLB]

No it isn't. Go back to what Jesus said about liars then read this...

Romans 3

7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

I think you need to read further into this scripture. Romans 3:8 Yet some claim that this is what I preach! 3:9 Well, then, are we Jews, better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all men alike are sinners, whether Jews or Gentiles. I think Paul has spoken the truth. You do like to pick a sentance out of contents and not address the whole issue. That is what keeps you going I think. You probably can not sleep at night until you have had the last word can you? Peace be with you.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

That's kind of haunting & strange coming from you.

You're Ry Opti, man.

No Huffy= last straw.

[JoeMama]

No Huffy= last straw.

LOL!

Get on AIM, boyee.

[JLB]

Intelligent people have no need for God or religion.

You need God my friend! Intelligence is not an issue pertaining to God or religion. If your intelligence is allowing you to end your life after death then how intelligent can you be? God be with you.

[JLB]

I asked him for a shiny new Huffy last Christmas and all I got was a can of car wash foam and a sponge, plus a standing order to clean my daddy's Lebaron whenever I got a C or better in school.

I said talk to God not ask for stuff from God. When you want to talk seriously and mean it, then I will be glad to respond. God be with you.

[JoeMama]

You need God my friend! Intelligence is not an issue pertaining to God or religion. If your intelligence is allowing you to end your life after death then how intelligent can you be? God be with you.

I am too intelligent. I got 4 B's & 2 C's in middle school this year. My teacher, Mrs. Alabanese (she's pretty), says I'm the most improved math student at Pioneer Middle School.

And plus, how come Sweet Lee didn't get a new Huffy? I saw his Christmas list because he emailed it to me. God knew he wanted a Huffy and STILL stiffed him.

What's worse is that God knew I wanted that hot new Berenstain Bears video game on NES & I didn't get that either. I love the level where sister bear rafts down the river.

I'm with Sweet Lee, there is no God.

[JLB]

I am too intelligent. I got 4 B's & 2 C's in middle school this year. My teacher, Mrs. Alabanese (she's pretty), says I'm the most improved math student at Pioneer Middle School.

And plus, how come Sweet Lee didn't get a new Huffy? I saw his Christmas list because he emailed it to me. God knew he wanted a Huffy and STILL stiffed him.

I'm with Sweet Lee, there is no God.

Thanks for your intelligent response.
God be with you.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

One time I thought I saw God, but I pulled on his beard and it wasn't even real.

It was just my deadbeat dad coming to take my tree to build a fort.

What a jerk.

[smashingt2312]

You need God my friend! Intelligence is not an issue pertaining to God or religion. If your intelligence is allowing you to end your life after death then how intelligent can you be? God be with you.

Yes i think everyone needs god or something to believe in, just for the emotional uplifting, but once again i dont know if one set organized religion is the way, just be a good person.

[JLB]

Yes i think everyone needs god or something to believe in, just for the emotional uplifting, but once again i dont know if one set organized religion is the way, just be a good person.

Your response is appreciated. I agree that organized religion is not everyones answer to life's happiness but God is. God does not pick and choose those who attend a certain church or belong to a certain religion. That is the beauty of God's love - you are loved no matter who you are. All you need to do is accept Him as your Savior! Peace be with you.

[sahlensguy]

I am too intelligent. I got 4 B's & 2 C's in middle school this year. My teacher, Mrs. Alabanese (she's pretty), says I'm the most improved math student at Pioneer Middle School.

And plus, how come Sweet Lee didn't get a new Huffy? I saw his Christmas list because he emailed it to me. God knew he wanted a Huffy and STILL stiffed him.




You'd make a real good child predator imposter at that myspace place.

[TRIPLE P]

You need God my friend! Intelligence is not an issue pertaining to God or religion. If your intelligence is allowing you to end your life after death then how intelligent can you be? God be with you.


Life after death is a myth designed to scare you into believing in God so that they can take your "donations" and control you by telling you that your urges are "sins"

The only thing people become after death is worm food.... you don't meet people in heaven, you don't kick it with Jesus...you die and you're done like everything else......

people need to get off thier high horse.

[sahlensguy]

1. Indeed he would. Doubt at your leisure.

2. Not true. I would love to believe in a Heavenly Father. It would make so many things much easier.

3. The Road to Damascus.

4. Belief is easier than deeds. Absolutely true. Just take a look at the number of people who use the "it's smarter to believe than not believe" rationalization.

1. Indeed God would put billions of Bible believing Christians to the test that Paul's vision was really that of Satan, thus casting the vast majority of them into the eternal pit of fire do to thier failing your test?!?

How are you so sure God would "indeed" do this?

2. The only hard part about believing is that it's not hard.

3.To think the Road to Damascus was really Satan disguised as Jesus is for cynics.

4. The way to Kingdom of Heaven is not so open to chest thumping, proud achievers. Rather humility will serve one better. You're making works vs. belief a competition. "Belief is easier than works. Absolutely true." I never said it wasn't, yet you're still arguing the point with me.

Subtle distinction, but a huge one really.

Works are touph. No doubt about it. And there's nothing wrong with works. Nothing wrong at all:

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so is faith without works is dead.

[sahlensguy]

The world according to WXP:

Life after death is a myth designed to scare you into believing in God so that they can take your "donations" and control you by telling you that your urges are "sins"

The only thing people become after death is worm food.... you don't meet people in heaven, you don't kick it with Jesus...you die and you're done like everything else......

people need to get off thier high horse.



How is this not YOUR high horse?

[TRIPLE P]

1. Indeed God would put billions of Bible believing Christians to the test that Paul's vision was really that of Satan, thus casting the vast majority of them into the eternal pit of fire do to thier failing your test?!?

.


But he WOULD test and cast the majority of humans everywhere who believe in Buddha, Alah, Zoroaster, Halie Selassie, Vishnu, Krishna, Shen, Shang ti, Aholi, Brahman, Izanagi, etc......

You've got this blind trust in YOUR God, believing that he couldn't possibly allow you to get ****ed over by Satan.... but you're perfectly fine with him allowing Satan to **** over the majority of the rest of the world with incorrect perception.....

[TRIPLE P]

The world according to WXP:





How is this not YOUR high horse?


Me not thinking I'm better than anything or anyone else is my high horse?

Its a simple thought process.... some smart people figured out that people biggest fear was of the unknown, more specifically the unknown of what happens after they die..... these are the same people who were the leaders...they wanted a way to get people to not steal from one another, to not kill one another, to not have sex and create population problems, to respect one another, etc, etc....

So they create a story to answer all the questions, doubts and fears the common people have..... a story where all they have to do is live a moral and good life, within a set of rules defined by "God" and then, if they do, they are guaranteed to live a great and wonderful afterlife......

in theory its a great idea, it keeps people in check and gives a society a sort of morality.....

Somewhere along the lines this was furthered into a money making scheme, and a great one at that....

but by all mean, keep believing lies that have been told for centuries, keep giving money to the church, keep prentending like you're gonna go hang out with dead relatives when youre becoming fertalizer......

I'm completly fine with living out my life and being nothing after.

[shiva2999]

But he WOULD test and cast the majority of humans everywhere who believe in Buddha, Alah, Zoroaster, Halie Selassie, Vishnu, Krishna, Shen, Shang ti, Aholi, Brahman, Izanagi, etc......

You've got this blind trust in YOUR God, believing that he couldn't possibly allow you to get ****ed over by Satan.... but you're perfectly fine with him allowing Satan to **** over the majority of the rest of the world with incorrect perception.....

Funny how that works, isn't it?

[shiva2999]

1. Indeed God would put billions of Bible believing Christians to the test that Paul's vision was really that of Satan, thus casting the vast majority of them into the eternal pit of fire do to thier failing your test?!?

How are you so sure God would "indeed" do this?

2. The only hard part about believing is that it's not hard.

3.To think the Road to Damascus was really Satan disguised as Jesus is for cynics.

4. The way to Kingdom of Heaven is not so open to chest thumping, proud achievers. Rather humility will serve one better. You're making works vs. belief a competition. "Belief is easier than works. Absolutely true." I never said it wasn't, yet you're still arguing the point with me.

Subtle distinction, but a huge one really.

Works are touph. No doubt about it. And there's nothing wrong with works. Nothing wrong at all:

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so is faith without works is dead.

1. It is your assumption that if someone fails God's test they are cast into the fiery pit. You know as well as I do that we ALL fail God's test. The difference between you and me is you believe that you can find redemption through kissing God's ass.

2. Indeed. Believing is not hard, especially when there is a reward attached.

3. Gee, why should I be cynical about a man with massive amounts of innocent blood on his hands who admits to being a liar and who told three completely different versions of his "vision" story?

4. Talk is cheap. I see very little humility in Christians. Especially American Christians.

[sukie]

Reading Shiva in this thread is my "church experience". I feel refreshed, cleansed, and uplifted.

[sahlensguy]

But he WOULD test and cast the majority of humans everywhere who believe in Buddha, Alah, Zoroaster, Halie Selassie, Vishnu, Krishna, Shen, Shang ti, Aholi, Brahman, Izanagi, etc......

Well He did say the only way to Him is through Jesus Christ.

You've got this blind trust in YOUR God, believing that he couldn't possibly allow you to get ****ed over by Satan.... but you're perfectly fine with him allowing Satan to **** over the majority of the rest of the world with incorrect perception.....

Were are all captains of our own boat so to speak. But yeah, I highly doubt the Bible is Satans book.

And no, I'm not ok with Satan **** over the majority of the rest of the world. Why would you think that?

[TRIPLE P]

Well He did say the only way to Him is through Jesus Christ.



Were are all captains of our own boat so to speak. But yeah, I highly doubt the Bible is Satans book.

And no, I'm not ok with Satan **** over the majority of the rest of the world. Why would you think that?


Maybe Satan said that the only way to him is through jesus Christ and the real God said Muhammed is his prophet? Or perhaps Satan is taking it to the Muslims AND the Christians, and Buddha is the real deal?

[sahlensguy]

Me not thinking I'm better than anything or anyone else is my high horse?

You're own version of the afterlife (or lack thereof) isn't your high horse? Even though that version puts all the dead equal, it still makes you out as sort of a knowitall. And based on what?

Its a simple thought process.... some smart people figured out that people biggest fear was of the unknown, more specifically the unknown of what happens after they die..... these are the same people who were the leaders...they wanted a way to get people to not steal from one another, to not kill one another, to not have sex and create population problems, to respect one another, etc, etc....

So they create a story to answer all the questions, doubts and fears the common people have..... a story where all they have to do is live a moral and good life, within a set of rules defined by "God" and then, if they do, they are guaranteed to live a great and wonderful afterlife......

Remember, what you do in life (works) is Shiva's angle.

God saves by His grace, not out of his obligation to reward hard workers.

in theory its a great idea, it keeps people in check and gives a society a sort of morality.....

Somewhere along the lines this was furthered into a money making scheme, and a great one at that....

but by all mean, keep believing lies that have been told for centuries, keep giving money to the church, keep prentending like you're gonna go hang out with dead relatives when youre becoming fertalizer......

I'm completly fine with living out my life and being nothing after.

A church need not control your mind. Finding your own self in that money hungry institution is up to you.

[sahlensguy]

Maybe Satan said that the only way to him is through jesus Christ and the real God said Muhammed is his prophet? Or perhaps Satan is taking it to the Muslims AND the Christians, and Buddha is the real deal?

Satan is God's bitch. Not the other way around.

[sahlensguy]

Funny how that works, isn't it?

Too bad it doesn't work that way.

[TRIPLE P]

Satan is God's bitch. Not the other way around.


But we're Satans bitch.... God isn't a trickster correct? Satan is.

[TRIPLE P]

A church need not control your mind. .


And who ran the church then, and still uses the church today to influence the public?

[35Pete]

Reading Shiva in this thread is my "church experience". I feel refreshed, cleansed, and uplifted.
He'd make a fine pastor on this board. Logical, makes sense. Doesn't contradict the bible at all.

He should schedule services here at 10 am every Sunday. No donations required.

[shiva2999]

Well He did say the only way to Him is through Jesus Christ.

Were are all captains of our own boat so to speak. But yeah, I highly doubt the Bible is Satans book.

1. Jesus was a master of metaphors. Why do you automatically assume then that his meaning is rigidly authoritarian? Unless, of course, you think that God's ultimate test is the intelligence he provided man and the way you pass that test is to deny that intelligence.

2. Your belief. There is no more reason to believe the Bible is God's book than Satan's book, other than to look at the results.

And what were the results? Two millenia of church driven horror.

[TRIPLE P]

2. Your belief. There is no more reason to believe the Bible is God's book than Satan's book, other than to look at the results.

And what were the results? Two millenia of church driven horror.

Exactly....

Do you think that more people have been saved from death or killed in the name of the christian religion?

[sahlensguy]

1. It is your assumption that if someone fails God's test they are cast into the fiery pit. You know as well as I do that we ALL fail God's test. The difference between you and me is you believe that you can find redemption through kissing God's ass.

For as long as you see love as kissing ass, we will disagree.

2. Indeed. Believing is not hard, especially when there is a reward attached.

Grace is not evil.

3. Gee, why should I be cynical about a man with massive amounts of innocent blood on his hands who admits to being a liar and who told three completely different versions of his "vision" story?

Like I said, the Road to Damascus goes in circles here. You're cynical about Jesus beign honestly represented, and I'm not. We'll have to agree to disagree.

4. Talk is cheap. I see very little humility in Christians. Especially American Christians.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't mean humility's not the way.

[shiva2999]

God saves by His grace, not out of his obligation to reward hard workers.