Germany in quandry over Iranian President's visit for WC

[CoachC.]

Interesting. What should they do? Here's an overview:

**Crazy Iranian President denied the Holocaust ever existed;
**Denial of the Holocaust is a serious offense, punishable by up to five years in prison in Germany;
**The newly elected leader of Germany's main Jewish body has called him a "Second Hitler," and said the German government should not invoke diplomatic immunity for Ahmadinejad, but rather should "investigate and charge him;"
**Crazy Iranian President says he will visit for World Cup match(es);
**Germany must accept his presense as a Head of State's physical education organization;
**Germany is involved in the Iranian nuke talks, as well, complicating matters politically.

Politics And Soccer Collide

NUREMBERG,
Germany, June 11, 2006

(CBS/AP) German Jewish leaders and politicians planned to demonstrate against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Sunday ahead of Iran's opening World Cup match against Mexico.

Ahmadinejad has caused international outrage by dismissing the Nazi Holocaust as a myth and questioning Israel's right to exist. Germany's main Jewish leader was quoted last week as calling him "a second Hitler" who must be kept away from the tournament.

Ahmadinejad has suggested that he might visit the national team, but no specific plans have been announced.

The German government, which is involved in delicate diplomatic efforts to defuse concerns about Iran's nuclear ambitions, has resisted calls to bar Ahmadinejad from the tournament.

However, the head of Germany's Central Council of Jews argued that "anyone who can declare the president of Belarus non grata also can clearly show the oil despot he is not wanted" in the country.

About 15 supporters of Germany's far-right National Democratic Party, carrying Iranian flags and a few posters of Ahmadinejad, demonstrated briefly Sunday morning on the edge of Nuremberg's old town.

"It is a shock for me that these fascists are demonstrating for Ahmadinejad, because Ahmadinejad is a crazy guy," said Jaleh Yavari, an Iranian who said she has lived in Switzerland for the past 20 years.

Mohammed Aliabadi, one of seven Iranian vice presidents, was expected at Sunday's Group D match against Mexico.

He is the head of the state's physical education organization, which says he is attending the tournament independently; however, the Central Council of Jews has described his presence as a provocation.

Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble has said that, with no U.N. or European Union travel ban in place, Germany would have to accept Ahmadinejad. He said Berlin would make clear his comments are unacceptable if he comes.

Ahead of the World Cup, German police also spoke with an Iranian dissident representative to allay concerns that dissident groups might stage violent protests during the tournament.

Link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/11/sportsline/main1699522.shtml)

[sukie]

Just give him a free pass to the brothel and he'll drop the nukes and his prior beliefs about the holocaust. Make sure the hot hooker is israeli.

[nehemiah]

it would be stupid not to let him in the country.

[uppy]

(Denial of the Holocaust is a serious offense, punishable by up to five years in prison in Germany)

Wow...

Let him come with a side trip to the death camps

[coastal]

nukes don't exist.

[sukie]

WTHELL does that mean> Nukes don't exsist.

[coastal]

WTHELL does that mean> Nukes don't exsist.

Crazy Iranian President denied the Holocaust ever existed

Stupid humor.

I thought it was dumb enough for you righties.

[JLB]

http://history.grand-forks.k12.nd.us/ndhistory/LessonImages/Sources/Pictures/holocaust%202.jpg


Tell them it did not happen.

[Stealth01]

I think they should let him in. It is illegal to make such a statement IN GERMANY, but he did not do it there. As long as he behaves while in the country, let him. Let people protest his presence if they want (and they will), but let him in. If, however, the moron decides to open his hummus-hole and break German law, throw him in jail like anyone else.

[TRIPLE P]

I think they should let him in. It is illegal to make such a statement IN GERMANY, but he did not do it there. As long as he behaves while in the country, let him. Let people protest his presence if they want (and they will), but let him in. If, however, the moron decides to open his hummus-hole and break German law, throw him in jail like anyone else.


Yup. The law is the law..... I can smoke weed in Amsterdam and come back here and noty get arrested.....

Now if Iran-man break the German laws in Germany, thats his ass I guess?

[phishhead220]

this guy is a complete nut. a middle eastern leader with that belief can't be a good thing for Israel.

[nehemiah]

they are not going to throw the iranian president in a german jail.

they're not americans. sheesh.

[JLB]

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave.

[Meathead]

you may never leave

[JLB]

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eagles/hotelcalifornia.html


Check it out meathead !!

[JLB]

EAGLES LYRICS

"Hotel California"

On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair
Warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air
Up ahead in the distance, I saw shimmering light
My head grew heavy and my sight grew dim
I had to stop for the night
There she stood in the doorway;
I heard the mission bell
And I was thinking to myself,
'This could be Heaven or this could be Hell'
Then she lit up a candle and she showed me the way
There were voices down the corridor,
I thought I heard them say...

Welcome to the Hotel California
Such a lovely place (Such a lovely place)
Such a lovely face
Plenty of room at the Hotel California
Any time of year (Any time of year)
You can find it here

Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes Benz
She got a lot of pretty, pretty boys she calls friends
How they dance in the courtyard, sweet summer sweat.
Some dance to remember, some dance to forget

So I called up the Captain,
'Please bring me my wine'
He said, 'We haven't had that spirit here since nineteen sixty nine'
And still those voices are calling from far away,
Wake you up in the middle of the night
Just to hear them say...

Welcome to the Hotel California
Such a lovely place (Such a lovely place)
Such a lovely face
They livin' it up at the Hotel California
What a nice surprise (what a nice suprise)
Bring your alibis

Mirrors on the ceiling,
The pink champagne on ice
And she said 'We are all just prisoners here, of our own device'
And in the master's chambers,
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
'Relax,' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave!

Hear are the lyrics for you meathead.

[Stealth01]

they're not americans. sheesh.

That's OK. Neither are you.

[nehemiah]

That's OK. Neither are you.:rofl:

:rockon: to [:::]!

is that supposed to be an insult? b/c it's a pretty lame one, if it is.

we know you can do better than that, stealth. try again.

[shiva2999]

is that supposed to be an insult? b/c it's a pretty lame one, if it is.

Lame insults are his specialty.

[Stealth01]

Actually, for some reason, I thought you were from Shiva's neck of the woods originally. Don't know why I thought that, but if calling someone "Canadian" is an insult, then yes, it was meant to be one. Other than that, I had just clumped you geographically with your hero. :D

[nehemiah]

Actually, for some reason, I thought you were from Shiva's neck of the woods originally. Don't know why I thought that, but if calling someone "Canadian" is an insult, then yes, it was meant to be one. Other than that, I had just clumped you geographically with your hero.well my dad was born in Canada and is a naturalized American citizen. the rest of that side of the family is Canadian.

:rockon: to Canada! best bacon, cheap beer, coffee, and potato chips in the world!

[Stealth01]

Potato chips?

[JLB]

well my dad was born in Canada and is a naturalized American citizen. the rest of that side of the family is Canadian.

:rockon: to Canada! best bacon, cheap beer, coffee, and potato chips in the world!


To Canada: The Fallsview Casino, and Buffet, Bacon,Beer,Horseshoe Falls awesome.
What chips do you mean Nehe?

Almost forgot O Canada - love the Anthem.

[nehemiah]

ketchup chips.
pickle chips.
chicken chips.
dressed all over.

the selection of potato chips in canada are awesome.

[Stealth01]

Wow. Too bad I don't eat potato chips...well, not really since I'm relatively healthy...but you get my meaning. :)

[JLB]

ketchup chips.
pickle chips.
chicken chips.
dressed all over.

the selection of potato chips in canada are awesome.

Thanks Nehe I will try some or all of the above.
Must admit never heard of any of those flavors who makes them?
Any brand name you like over the rest?

[Forum21]

It is illegal to make such a statement IN GERMANY, but he did not do it there.
I'm not sure if that's the case. Germany grabbed one or two famous Holocost deniers for comments they made in print, outside the country.

[JLB]

Wow. Too bad I don't eat potato chips...well, not really since I'm relatively healthy...but you get my meaning. :)

You are the master but potato chips are pretty good.

[nehemiah]

I'm not sure if that's the case. Germany grabbed one or two famous Holocaust deniers for comments they made in print, outside the country.yeah? that's interesting. :hmm:

you got a link? i would like to read that.

[shiva2999]

Wow. Too bad I don't eat potato chips...well, not really since I'm relatively healthy...

Physically, maybe...

[shiva2999]

Tell you what.

I'd like someone to link where Ahmadinejab denied the holocaust happened and also where he said Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth.

His own words please, with a credible translation.

Let's see if you can do it.

[K-Gun]

Tell you what.

I'd like someone to link where Ahmadinejab denied the holocaust happened and also where he said Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth.

His own words please, with a credible translation.

Let's see if you can do it.

What ever do you mean? lmao

[Stealth01]

I'm not sure if that's the case. Germany grabbed one or two famous Holocost deniers for comments they made in print, outside the country.

I'm betting they were German citizens, though.

[shiva2999]

BTW, Arabs and Persians weren't responsible for the holocaust.

Europeans were.

I think it's understandable how Arabs and Persians might be pissed that Europeans tried to make it right on the backs of the people of the middle east.

[uppy]

The land of Isreal belongs to the Jews

[Stealth01]

Tell you what.

I'd like someone to link where Ahmadinejab denied the holocaust happened and also where he said Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth.

His own words please, with a credible translation.

Let's see if you can do it.

It's not that simple and you know it. Translating Farsi--or any other language for that matter--is as much art as it is science. His comments are explained on this page, (http://www.answers.com/topic/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-and-israel) which does a good job presenting both sides of the story without taking sides on which one is correct.

Personally, I'll believe CNN and the other American media translations before I believe the Iranian state-run media, but either way, the speech can be interpreted with varying amounts of vitriol, depending on who translates it.

[shiva2999]

It's not that simple and you know it. Translating Farsi--or any other language for that matter--is as much art as it is science. His comments are explained on this page (http://www.answers.com/topic/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-and-israel) does a good job presenting both sides of the story without taking sides on which one is correct.

Personally, I'll believe CNN and the other American media translations before I believe the Iranian state-run media, but either way, the speech can be interpreted with varying amounts of vitriol, depending on who translates it.

1. Indeed. Even understanding English is difficult for English speakers. For example, see how many people on this board who don't understand the concept of a metaphor.

2. Well, you'll have to forgive me if I take CNN and the American media with the same grain of salt I use with the Iranian government.

As I've said before, I have no problem calling bad guys bad guys, but I won't buy into bullshit to demonstrate my loyalty to a cause.

[Stealth01]

No doubt. No matter which American media company (or other country's media, for that matter), they ALL have a spin on them. Left, right, up, down. Something. The truth on what he said probably falls somewhere in the middle, between the paranoid "He wants to nuke Israel" crowd and the head-in-the-sand "he's just misunderstood" crowd.

[shiva2999]

No doubt. No matter which American media company (or other country's media, for that matter), they ALL have a spin on them. Left, right, up, down. Something. The truth on what he said probably falls somewhere in the middle, between the paranoid "He wants to nuke Israel" crowd and the head-in-the-sand "he's just misunderstood" crowd.

Well, if the truth is somewhere in the middle then the "He wants to nuke Israel" crowd IS misunderstanding him.

By definition.

[CoachC.]

Tell you what.

I'd like someone to link where Ahmadinejab denied the holocaust happened and also where he said Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth.

His own words please, with a credible translation.

Let's see if you can do it.

There's too many translations in order to do that, as you and Stealth have noted.

However, in this interview with SPIEGEL published just 2 weeks ago, he does not "confirm or deny the Holocaust."

He also says, "I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it," about the Holocaust. So, he's saying he's not convinced it existed.

Technically, neither of these is the same thing as denying it, of course, but saying these things is fairly similar.

This is quite a fascinating interview with the man. This is just the excerpt of the interview disussing this subject. Everyone should read the whole thing. Of course, we could also argue that this is just a translated version, but I think this is a much better source.

SPIEGEL: Denying the Holocaust is punishable in Germany. Are you indifferent when confronted with so much outrage?

Ahmadinejad: I know that DER SPIEGEL is a respected magazine. But I don't know whether it is possible for you to publish the truth about the Holocaust. Are you permitted to write everything about it?

SPIEGEL: Of course we are entitled to write about the findings of the past 60 years' historical research. In our view there is no doubt that the Germans -- unfortunately -- bear the guilt for the murder of 6 million Jews.

Ahmadinejad: Well, then we have stirred up a very concrete discussion. We are posing two very clear questions. The first is: Did the Holocaust actually take place? You answer this question in the affirmative. So, the second question is: Whose fault was it? The answer to that has to be found in Europe and not in Palestine. It is perfectly clear: If the Holocaust took place in Europe, one also has to find the answer to it in Europe.

On the other hand, if the Holocaust didn't take place, why then did this regime of occupation ...

SPIEGEL: ... You mean the state of Israel...

Ahmadinejad: ... come about? Why do the European countries commit themselves to defending this regime? Permit me to make one more point. We are of the opinion that, if an historical occurrence conforms to the truth, this truth will be revealed all the more clearly if there is more research into it and more discussion about it.

SPIEGEL: That has long since happened in Germany.

Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust. We oppose every type of crime against any people. But we want to know whether this crime actually took place or not. If it did, then those who bear the responsibility for it have to be punished, and not the Palestinians. Why isn't research into a deed that occurred 60 years ago permitted? After all, other historical occurrences, some of which lie several thousand years in the past, are open to research, and even the governments support this.

SPIEGEL: Mr. President, with all due respect, the Holocaust occurred, there were concentration camps, there are dossiers on the extermination of the Jews, there has been a great deal of research, and there is neither the slightest doubt about the Holocaust nor about the fact - we greatly regret this - that the Germans are responsible for it. If we may now add one remark: the fate of the Palestinians is an entirely different issue, and this brings us into the present.

Ahmadinejad: No, no, the roots of the Palestinian conflict must be sought in history. The Holocaust and Palestine are directly connected with one another. And if the Holocaust actually occurred, then you should permit impartial groups from the whole world to research this. Why do you restrict the research to a certain group? Of course, I don't mean you, but rather the European governments.

SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a myth?"

Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it.

SPIEGEL: Even though no Western scholars harbor any doubt about the Holocaust?

Ahmadinejad: But there are two opinions on this in Europe. One group of scholars or persons, most of them politically motivated, say the Holocaust occurred. Then there is the group of scholars who represent the opposite position and have therefore been imprisoned for the most part. Hence, an impartial group has to come together to investigate and to render an opinion on this very important subject, because the clarification of this issue will contribute to the solution of global problems. Under the pretext of the Holocaust, a very strong polarization has taken place in the world and fronts have been formed. It would therefore be very good if an international and impartial group looked into the matter in order to clarify it once and for all. Normally, governments promote and support the work of researchers on historical events and do not put them in prison.

Full text of interview (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html)

[CoachC.]

Shiva, this part is for you. It's right near the bottom of the interview. I think you had a thread about this part of his letter to GWB:

SPIEGEL: This letter to the American president includes a passage about Sept. 11, 2001. The quote: "How could such an operation be planned and implemented without the coordination with secret and security services or without the far-reaching infiltration of these services?" Your statements always include so many innuendos. What is that supposed to mean? Did the CIA help Mohammed Atta and the other 18 terrorists conduct their attacks?

Ahmadinejad: No, that's not what I meant. We think that they should just say who is to blame. They should not use Sept. 11 as an excuse to launch a military attack against the Middle East. They should take those who are responsible for the attacks to court. We're not opposed to that; we condemned the attacks. We condemn any attack against innocent people.

[shiva2999]

He also says, "I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it," about the Holocaust. So, he's saying he's not convinced it existed.


I don't think he's saying that. If he was convinced he could have very easily said "I'm not convinced the Holocaust happened".

The point that he's trying to make IMO, is that the Holocaust is the responsibility of Europeans and yet it's Europeans and other Christians who are making the Palestinians and other Muslims pay for it.

[shiva2999]

Shiva, this part is for you. It's right near the bottom of the interview. I think you had a thread about this part of his letter to GWB:

The man understands nuance.

Notice he says "That's not what I meant".

He didn't say "I don't believe it to be true."

[Stealth01]

Amanda'sdaddy'sjob is dancing around the subject. Why? Several reasons, probably.

1. He has an audience in his home country that LOVES it when he refuses to acknowledge the Holocaust. Good PR.

2. He knows that what he has said in the past pleases the homefront, but makes him look like a nutjob to the outside world. So he is stuck in the middle and trying to make the best of it.

3. He is a devout and radical Muslim who believes in the destruction of Israel, AS IT EXISTS TODAY. He might ignore it were it located elsewhere, but as it exists to day, he wants it gone. So he is saying things to undermine the legitimacy of the state of Isreal in the world opinions.

I believe he is a radical nutjob (much like Pat Robertson) whose religious zeal gets in the way of his judgement. I do believe that if he had a nuclear weapon, he would use it on Israel in a HEARTBEAT.

What's odd about this whole Palestine-Israel thing is that the Palestinians were invaders to that land. They came from Crete and Cyprus and are most ASSUREDLY not Arab. Only some of them are Muslim, and they have their own share of Christians and other religions mixed in. So the only REAL reason Muslim nations support Palestine is to oppose Jews, as the Koran teaches them to do.

[shiva2999]

Did your lithium prescription run out?

Where did you develop such a wildly paranoid vision of the world?

[uppy]

I see no paranoid vision ......I see facts

[Stealth01]

Did your lithium prescription run out?

Where did you develop such a wildly paranoid vision of the world?

I assume you're being sarcastic.

I thought it was a relatively neutral observation of a politician surviving in a Muslim world.

[shiva2999]

I see no paranoid vision ......I see facts

Undoubtedly...

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/W/weirdworlds/x_ray/images/fom.gif

[shiva2999]

I assume you're being sarcastic.

I thought it was a relatively neutral observation of a politician surviving in a Muslim world.

I HOPE you're being sarcastic.

[Stealth01]

No, just talking to a joke.