How come nobody seemed to mind...

[Fortunesmith]

...the "Echelon System" up until now? Seemed to be a tool that Clinton liked to use, among other countries worldwide.



http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5150

[shiva2999]

...the "Echelon System" up until now? Seemed to be a tool that Clinton liked to use among other countries worldwide.



http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5150

Maybe because this forum wasn't around for us to voice our displeasure?

Clinton's long gone, try and focus.

[Fortunesmith]

Maybe because this forum wasn't around for us to voice our displeasure?

Clinton's long gone, try and focus.

Clinton is not my point, so let me clarify my post. The Echelon System has been in place for a long time. It has been used by past presidents. Why is it now a big deal that Bush maybe using the same tool?

[shiva2999]

Clinton is not my point, so let me clarify my post. The Echelon System has been in place for a long time. It has been used by past presidents. Why is it now a big deal that Bush maybe using the same tool?

Not even Bush is using this argument.

According to what we've been told, this initiative was started at the NSA after 9/11 by Gen Hayden.

[Fortunesmith]

Not even Bush is using this argument.

According to what we've been told, this initiative was started at the NSA after 9/11 by Gen Hayden.

Well, maybe he should. Phone call activity logs are part of the system.

[shiva2999]

Well, maybe he should. Phone call activity logs are part of the system.

Give the Whitehouse a call.

Apparently Karl Rove has told Bush he will be indicted by Fitzgerald's Grand Jury for perjury, so there's an opening.

At 29% and sinking, they need all the help they can get.

[Fortunesmith]

Give the Whitehouse a call.

Apparently Karl Rove has told Bush he will be indicted by Fitzgerald's Grand Jury for perjury, so there's an opening.

At 29% and sinking, they need all the help they can get.


The line is busy.

But what your opinions of echelon? Makes some things this administration has done seem a little more tame, eh?

[ckg68]

Here's the major difference,fortune:

The Clinton admin went through the FISA court before they did wiretaps.

The Bush admin didn't.

[Fortunesmith]

Here's the major differencefortune:

The Clinton admin went through the FISA court before they did wiretaps.

The Bush admin didn't.

When did Bush use illegal wiretaps?

[uppy]

Good question......waiting

[ckg68]

I'll answer it with a question: Do you even bother to watch the news?

Or do you not watch it unless it's Fox News?

[uppy]

I just watch the Fair and balanced news

[ckg68]

Why do I ask questions I already know the answers to?

[uppy]

Because you're a good Guy.

[gilchristfan]

Good question......waiting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy

[nehemiah]

stop lying. echelon sucks and nobody argued otherwise.

[ckg68]

Because you're a good Guy.

Here's a better reason: I know what you're going to say before you even say it. And it's not because I'm psychic.

[sukie]

stop lying. echelon sucks and nobody argued otherwise.
poop. :rockon:

[uppy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy

Thank you for that link Gil,thats a ton of info.I think wikipeda leans a bit to
the left. imo

[gilchristfan]

Thank you for that link Gil,thats a ton of info.I think wikipeda leans a bit to
the left. imo


Wikipedia articles are, for the most part, user submitted. That's a pretty detailed article, so its a starting point.

But if you look at it, you might get an idea of why people aren't happy about the phone number collection. When the warrantless monitoring, within the US, was revealed in December, Bush assured everyone that they weren't monitoring totally domestic calls, only domestic-international calls.

Now you find out that they are in fact, monitoring domestic calls, and have a data base with over a billion calls. They can claim that they aren't really monitoring the calls, well.. that gets into a bit of a word game. Many would consider the tracking of the date, time, duration and the numbers of the 2 parties a form of "monitoring".

PS, Gonzales is stonewalling the Congressional committee looking into whether FISA was violated by the NSA concerning the warrantless monitoring. In addition, the federal OPR (Office of Professional Responsibility) had to end its investigation of the NSA, because the NSA wouldn't grant the OPR attorney's security clearance.

[shiva2999]

They not only knew they were breaking the law, they threatened Qwest if they didn't co-operate.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard.

Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.

In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more.

Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events.

[35Pete]

Here's the major difference,fortune:

The Clinton admin went through the FISA court before they did wiretaps.

The Bush admin didn't.
Bull shit. Legal doesn't make it moral.

[35Pete]

...the "Echelon System" up until now? Seemed to be a tool that Clinton liked to use, among other countries worldwide.



http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5150
Because this place is one great big double standard.

[Fortunesmith]

Because this place is one great big double standard.

This of couse is the correct answer. Some of the responses have been interesting, though.

[nehemiah]

Because this place is one great big double standard.:bs:

[sukie]

:bs:I am curiously awaiting an expansion on that. Please do not make me hold my breath. (burrrrrrrrp) <--- cyber chug.

[nehemiah]

this is a bull**** thread.

nobody defended echelon... no matter who was implementing that fascist horse manure.

how's that?

[sukie]

Did anyone bitch about Echelon?

[nehemiah]

i did

[sukie]

Since you were the only one then popular opinion would be favorable on Echelon and the thread is valid.

[Fortunesmith]

Here's the major difference,fortune:

The Clinton admin went through the FISA court before they did wiretaps.

The Bush admin didn't.

Sounds like he's defending Echelon.

Because the echelon system exists and has been used in the past when not engaged in a war, doesn't that make the Bush admin using phone logs to track terrorist cells during a war-time seem tame in comparison? The truth is that the government has had much better tools for domestic spying that to look at call logs.

[nehemiah]

"tame in comparison"?

interesting tact. and a pretty lame one, IMO.

[SpikedLemonade]

"tame in comparison"?

interesting tact. and a pretty lame one, IMO.

Here I am supporting your "Character in Politics" thread and this is all you come up with?

You suck.

[nehemiah]

for someone who harps on character - your posts often show a lack of it.

[nehemiah]

constitutional rights are not subject to the "in comparison to how bad it could be" defense.

it's just wrong. no matter who does it.

[SpikedLemonade]

for someone who harps on character - your posts often show a lack of it.

Bite me.:eatme:

Go post on your "Character" thread rather simply bumping it you fool.

[Fortunesmith]

"tame in comparison"?

interesting tact. and a pretty lame one, IMO.

Lame in what way? Your post is very ambiguous.

[SpikedLemonade]

Your post is very ambiguous.

So is his sexual orientation.

[anEinherjer]

Did anyone bitch about Echelon?

Yes. You just weren't aware of it at the time. Most of us geeks who have been online for a few years were bitching about it, loudly.


Also, "war time", Fortune? When did Congress declare war? I must have missed that one.

Spikey, if you're going to post around here, you gotta realize you're not going to make the same friends in every thread.

[TRIPLE P]

Spiked....I've determined that you're a closet homo......

All you ever do is call people gay when you haven't got anything else to say...

Its really sad.....you're one of the worst posters on this board.

[Fortunesmith]

Also, "war time", Fortune? When did Congress declare war? I must have missed that one.


Congress did not declare war, but authorized the use of force. Splitting hairs, really.

Our military is currently engaged in active combat. We are in war-time.

[Angus]

Wikipedia articles are, for the most part, user submitted. That's a pretty detailed article, so its a starting point.

But if you look at it, you might get an idea of why people aren't happy about the phone number collection. When the warrantless monitoring, within the US, was revealed in December, Bush assured everyone that they weren't monitoring totally domestic calls, only domestic-international calls.

Now you find out that they are in fact, monitoring domestic calls, and have a data base with over a billion calls. They can claim that they aren't really monitoring the calls, well.. that gets into a bit of a word game. Many would consider the tracking of the date, time, duration and the numbers of the 2 parties a form of "monitoring".

PS, Gonzales is stonewalling the Congressional committee looking into whether FISA was violated by the NSA concerning the warrantless monitoring. In addition, the federal OPR (Office of Professional Responsibility) had to end its investigation of the NSA, because the NSA wouldn't grant the OPR attorney's security clearance.

Once you have the numbers, I imagine it is pretty easy, using other data bases and investigative resources to link the number to a name, from the name, to a SS# and from there whatever else they might want to know. I have no way of knowing the precise use they make of the information they are getting but clearly it is a stepping stone to something more specific and more intrusive.

At this point, all we can do is trust the administration when it says it is fiercely guarding our privacy and that they aren't playing semantical games in their denials. That is exactly how things are not supposed to work in a democracy. The whole FISA court was set up for the very purpose of having some sort of independent set of eyes looking over what is going on so that we don't have to just trust what we are being told is the truth. For reasons they have never explained adequately, the administration decided that they needed to proceed without judicial review even though the judges involved virtually never turn down the orders/warrants requested.

That makes me nervous. The only reason to bypass judicial review is because what is being done would not pass judicial review, not even the easy-as-pie review of the friendly FISA court judges. I can't imagine what in God's name they would be doing that is so unrelated to the GWOT that they figured they couldn't get it past FISA. I don't know what they are doing but knowing they feared to let FISA judges rule on it sacres me to no end.