Founding Fathers and the constitution.

[sukie]

http://www.prisoners.com/mythff.html

MYTHS of the FOUNDING FATHERS

From Prisoners.com

The term "Founding Fathers" is somewhat vague. My dictionary says that it didn't even come into use until about 1914. It was applied to the members of the Constitutional Convention of 1787. Our Constitution or what remains of it after 27 of the most serious blunders have been corrected by amendments, rests on the philosophy, genius, morality and ethics of the rather small committee which concocted it. We must look to those Founding Fathers to see what kinds of guys they were that we should surrender our good sense to theirs.

It's important to differentiate the Constitution that the Founding Fathers cooked up from the Bill of Rights. Today when we think of the protections of the American system, we usually think of the shinning example of ethics and goodness contained in the Bill of Rights. These are the first ten amendments to the Constitution. They are primarily the work of George Mason (1725-1792). He would have been a Founding Father because he was a delegate to the convention from Virginia, but he refused to sign the Constitution. He realized that it failed to protect individual liberties and failed to oppose slavery.

Mr. Mason lobbied against adoption of the Constitution just as many of the Founding Fathers lobbied against the Bill of Rights. Most of the Founding Fathers disapproved of giving ordinary citizens such liberties as freedom of religion, freedom from unreasonable search and torture, the right of free speech and so forth. In fact, when John Adams (1735-1826) was president (1797-1801), he took away freedom of speech....

...Here are the 39 much-revered Founding Fathers who invented the Constitution, the guys we're supposed to look up to, the guys judges are supposed to worship:

...more...

Click on top link for the constitutional signee breakdown... Franklin was a scumbag.

[nehemiah]

tee hee

is this thread for real, or no?

[sukie]

Yup... I couldn't put the condemning table in but interesting reading.

[RabidBillsFan]

Benjamin Franklin was NOT a scumbag. That is a very ignorant assessment of perhaps the greatest American in our history. I am completely shocked that you'd say something like that.

[nehemiah]

someone forward this link to karl rove and libby --> http://www.prisoners.com/handbook.html

[sukie]

Benjamin Franklin was NOT a scumbag. That is a very ignorant assessment of perhaps the greatest American in our history. I am completely shocked that you'd say something like that.

rapist? Sex with a 15 yr old?... Little on the scumbag side.

[RabidBillsFan]

rapist? Sex with a 15 yr old?... Little on the scumbag side.

WTF? A 15 year old girl in the mid 1700's was average for SURE. I have SEVERAL ancestors that had very young brides because it was a life expectancy issue. Talk about revisionist historical aspects!

[sukie]

rape was okay as well...?

[RabidBillsFan]

rape was okay as well...?

When was Franklin ever convicted of rape? Not that I remember!

[sukie]

I gave you the link.

[RabidBillsFan]

I gave you the link.

He WAS NOT convicted of rape is my point. A conviction is guilt, not hearsay or innuendo... THIS is why you never use third rate sources to define a first-rate American.

[shiva2999]

Tee hee hee.

Sukie's bitch-slapping Pete.

[sukie]

James Madison, Jr.
1751-1836 Virginia Born in Virginia of a wealthy and powerful family, widely believed to be homosexual, "Father of the Constutution," slave breeder, importer and owner of many slaves, scholarly, articulate, wealthy land owner and land speculator in Kentucky, representative, secretary of state, fourth president of the United states.

Benjamin Franklin
1706-1790 Pennsylvania Born in Boston, oldest delegate, genius, womanizer, father of several bastards including a governor of New Jersey, rapist, sex with 15 year-old child, wealthy businessman and printer/publisher, inventor, spent 1/3 of his life in Europe.

Alexander Hamilton
1755?-1804 New York Bastard born to a penniless slut on Nevis, West Indies, illegal alien, criminal, married money, daughter of General Philip Schuyler, captain in the Revolution, profiteer, pompous, involved in finance, killed by Aaron Burr (1757-1836) in an illegal duel.


i say we should worship all these great men for their kind forthought that transcends centuries without flaw.

[sukie]

Tee hee hee.

Sukie's bitch-slapping Pete.
I'm NOT a constitutionalist as you can see.

[RabidBillsFan]

Benajmin Franklin was NOT convicted of rape

That source is worthless, and propagates false information. We're talking about fact, not fiction here.

[gilchristfan]

prisoners.com meet Johnnycash.com. Maybe he'll cheer you up after writing about all of those crooks.

[RabidBillsFan]

jwsukie (1965-): New York Jets fan, loves to eat spinach and limburger cheese, often wears green and yellow shirts, hates golf, and loves soccer.

There ya go. Exposing the Range members- I should post that on a site, and therefore it is true.

Get my point? :)

[sukie]

You are missing the realm of possibility that this is correct. Just like Willis fans...There is a huge possibility that he just plain BLOWS.

[RabidBillsFan]

You are missing the realm of possibility that this is correct. Just like Willis fans...There is a huge possibility that he just plain BLOWS.

Trial by press and hearsay and innuendo in the court of jwsukie!

[sukie]

John Adams considered Franklin cunning rather than shrewd, and suspected him of an incestuous relationship with his daughter, to whom he had left the bulk of his fortune.

http://www.compedit.com/rev1ns3.htm

[nehemiah]

so i can post all incarcerated person's rantings as FACT. "Adolf H. Nixon"?

kewl - that just makes it so much easier to smack you poptarts around.

[RabidBillsFan]

John Adams considered Franklin cunning rather than shrewd, and suspected him of an incestuous relationship with his daughter, to whom he had left the bulk of his fortune.

http://www.compedit.com/rev1ns3.htm

John Adams 'suspected', as Sally Hemings was the 'suspected' offspring of Thomas Jefferson. Suspected does NOT equal true.

[sukie]

Does NOT equal False.

[RabidBillsFan]

Innocent until proven guilty, NOT Guilty until proven innocent.

You must not be familiar too much with the press of that era, and the countless number of cases involving slander. Why do you think they passed the Alien and Sedition Acts?

[nehemiah]

this thread is hilarious.

[RabidBillsFan]

He made the mistake of going up against someone who knows a lot about the Colonial era, particularly about Franklin. I must admit I am weak on Constitutional issues, but as far as the persons of that day, I am very knowledgeable. :)

[nehemiah]

he made the mistake of posting something by someone named adolf h. nixon, IMO.

classic.

[RabidBillsFan]

Bad sources are a particular nuisance in the research area :)

I made the mistake of writing a summation based upon a flawed source on World War II. It turned out the author was a Nazi apologist in Britain (David Irving), and from that day on, the lesson of know your source rings true!! :D

[sukie]

Prison Ghost writer... DUH.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertainment/columnists/carlin_romano/13573467.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

Try this one.

[RabidBillsFan]

Prison Ghost writer... DUH.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertainment/columnists/carlin_romano/13573467.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

Try this one.

OMG!!! Franklin loved women!

There is NO MENTION of rape proof. This only shows that he was a human being, as we all knew. I never denied he was not a womanizer or had differing thoughts on slavery. MY POINT was that he was never convicted of rape- no proof, nothing.

[nehemiah]

Prison Ghost writer... DUH.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertainment/columnists/carlin_romano/13573467.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

Try this one.don't get me wrong... i appreciate the fact that you finally show some respect for the incarcerated.

it's a step up for you. good for you. good for gary hogeboom.

[35Pete]

Well well. I see that Rabid and I are on the same page here.

Sukie. If you are conservative and NOT a constitutionalist then you lean fascist. And you would prove your critics right. Like it or not anyone but my beliefs are based on a framework or guiding philosophy. Sounds like your are based on "whatever you think is a good idea". That's not governance. That's ruling. Governance is predicated on a preset agreement.

And how does this belief of yours differ from the libs?

[35Pete]

And there is nothing immoral about amending the constitution. The founders wanted that option for future generations. But ignoring it is an abomination.

[RabidBillsFan]

You KNOW why I am called Rabid, right? :guy:

I stay out of constitutional arguments for the most part :)

[sukie]

Pete, Basing beliefs on a philosophy is what I do in contrast to the staunch literal constitutionalists that purely put thoughts into the founding fathers heads. Hind sight does not make it correct. That is why I cannot call myself a constitutionalist. Founding Fathers being held up as holy saints that had the general public's interest in mind thru some century spanning wisdom is what I object to. They were rich money whores that were looking out for themselves.

[sukie]

And... JUST MAYBE the right to bear arms was put in place to insure the government didn't become tyrannical. Or maybe , since the country wasn't that well established ...the right to bear arms was also a saftey valve in case the British regrouped and decided to have it another go.

[35Pete]

Pete, Basing beliefs on a philosophy is what I do in contrast to the staunch literal constitutionalists that purely put thoughts into the founding fathers heads. Hind sight does not make it correct. That is why I cannot call myself a constitutionalist. Founding Fathers being held up as holy saints that had the general public's interest in mind thru some century spanning wisdom is what I object to. They were rich money whores that were looking out for themselves.
The ONLY other member here that I know of that has read the writings of the founders other than myself is anEinherjer. Maybe phantom cause he is a history major. Read them. Educate yourself before making ignorant statements. Because what you just said was ignorant. Really.

[35Pete]

And... JUST MAYBE the right to bear arms was put in place to insure the government didn't become tyrannical. Or maybe , since the country wasn't that well established ...the right to bear arms was also a saftey valve in case the British regrouped and decided to have it another go.
DUH!!!!!!!!! Read my thread on that. It will be the first time you ever read a quote from the founders.

[RabidBillsFan]

The ONLY other member here that I know of that has read the writings of the founders other than myself is anEinherjer. Maybe phantom cause he is a history major. Read them. Educate yourself before making ignorant statements. Because what you just said was ignorant. Really.

Hmmm... I guess my collection of colonial writings doesn't count!! :D

[35Pete]

Hmmm... I guess my collection of colonial writings doesn't count!! :D
Give me a link. I'd love to read them.

[uppy]

The ONLY other member here that I know of that has read the writings of the founders other than myself is anEinherjer. Maybe phantom cause he is a history major. Read them. Educate yourself before making ignorant statements. Because what you just said was ignorant. Really.

just independents and libertarians ?

[RabidBillsFan]

Give me a link. I'd love to read them.

It is called the Great Home Library of Rabid... actual books.. scary, huh? :rofl:

How very Victorian of me, I must admit. :)

*I didn't mean ones that *I* had written... my collection :)

[sukie]

The ONLY other member here that I know of that has read the writings of the founders other than myself is anEinherjer. Maybe phantom cause he is a history major. Read them. Educate yourself before making ignorant statements. Because what you just said was ignorant. Really.
What makes it ignorant... And is ignorant worse than pompous? Start a poll thread on that. Your response is like asking me to read the bible. It ain't black and white.

[shiva2999]

The ONLY other member here that I know of that has read the writings of the founders other than myself is anEinherjer. Maybe phantom cause he is a history major. Read them. Educate yourself before making ignorant statements. Because what you just said was ignorant. Really.

Tee hee hee.

Hey Pete

It's irritating arguing with loudmouths who don't know what they're talking about, isn't it?

[shiva2999]

... And is ignorant worse than pompous?

Yes. It is.

[35Pete]

What makes it ignorant... And is ignorant worse than pompous? Start a poll thread on that. Your response is like asking me to read the bible. It ain't black and white.
Ignorance = Lack of knowledge.

[Gibby]

uh, interesting website but I don't think I can call it academically sound. The author is has the names adolf and nixon and I can't really trust anyone who has either of these two names. All joking aside this site is not academically sound because Mr. Nixon gives little in the way of his credentials-that is to say why should I trust him- and he also fails to cite the sources for much of his information. Some interesting sounding stuff that I will investigate, but really he fails to validate what he says with sources. So I'm extremely cautious and skeptical about this website. As for Franklin, he is perhaps the greatest American. In more ways than one-especially his mistresses- he is the father of our country or at least Pennsylvannia. He was truly a renaisance (sp) man, and politically savvy, self starting, and witty.

Like I said earlier its an interesting site, but you cannot and should not believe everything you read, especially on the internet

[35Pete]

uh, interesting website but I don't think I can call it academically sound. The author is has the names adolf and nixon and I can't really trust anyone who has either of these two names. All joking aside this site is not academically sound because Mr. Nixon gives little in the way of his credentials-that is to say why should I trust him- and he also fails to cite the sources for much of his information. Some interesting sounding stuff that I will investigate, but really he fails to validate what he says with sources. So I'm extremely cautious and skeptical about this website. As for Franklin, he is perhaps the greatest American. In more ways than one-especially his mistresses- he is the father of our country or at least Pennsylvannia. He was truly a renaisance (sp) man, and politically savvy, self starting, and witty.

Like I said earlier its an interesting site, but you cannot and should not believe everything you read, especially on the internet
:clapper:

Phantom. Discredit the founders and you discredit the constitution. Both sides seem to want to do this. That pesky document just seems to get in the damn way!!!

[Gibby]

:clapper:

Phantom. Discredit the founders and you discredit the constitution. Both sides seem to want to do this. That pesky document just seems to get in the damn way!!!

so you want to interpret what the founders felt about the constitution, or perhaps you want to learn more about the founders and about the extraordinary documents written by these extraordinary men, if so I have compiled a book list. The books listed are readily available at any library or bookstore in the United States or Canada.

1. The Constitution, before you do anything else as a patriotic citizen or wannabe citizen of the United States, read this document. In a word it is the bible of American government

2. The Declaration of Independence, read what the founders felt about our nation and why we needed one.

3. The Federalist Papers, if you can't afford the entire series, no fear Signet Classics has an abridged version that sells for about 11.00 dollars American

4. The Anti- Federalist Papers, again if you can't afford the entire reproduction series signet classics sells an abridged version for about 11.00 dollars American

5. Autobiograhpy of Ben Franklin

6. Tom Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia

For Added Background and information feel free to study the following:

Locke, Rousseau, DeTocqueville (SP).

"But Gibby I can only read stuff online because my mommy and daddy and/or Shiva won't buy me books about America" okay guys let me give you some credible website readings compiled by the History department at Fordham.

This address will guide you to all sorts of primary sources and monographs of the founders and founding of the United States.

Enjoy: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook12.html

[sukie]

Yes. It is.
Sucking up to Pete won't score you points. Sorry.