Miami to Make Strong Move for Brees

[BillsCAfan]

This is the word of the town, and I read it on ESPN Insider. If they get Brees, they will be an immediate Super Bowl contender no joke.

I hope it doesn't happen.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/features/rumors?univLogin02=stateChanged

[Merk]

Not surprised


If I was them I would make him my top priority this offseason

[Biff Beeper]

I would hate the Fins even more with Brees.That would really suck if they signed him.It's much more fun with Frerotte to slap around.:nono:

[JT]

Sounds like a team that is determined to make some big moves this off season in order to improve its team......I just hope the bills are as determined......

[Stealth01]

Well, Brees would have some trouble behind Miami's porous OL. He'd make their passing game more credible until the first 6-sack, 2INT game. Then people would have the formula to beating them. If they improve their OL at the same time, watch out.

[GvilleBill]

dudes arm is not gonna be right. he didn't have the deep arm previously, now it will be worse. i hope the Fins pay through the nose for him and he goes back to pre 2004 Brees. damn I hate the Fins...

[The U]

The Fins need more than Brees to be a Super Bowl Contender!

[Merk]

dudes arm is not gonna be right. he didn't have the deep arm previously, now it will be worse. i hope the Fins pay through the nose for him and he goes back to pre 2004 Brees. damn I hate the Fins...


I'd take that arm over any arm on this roster

[Griffs77]

I hope Brees lands in Miami so that twice a year we can see what we missed out on.

[wagoncircler]

This is very bad news.

[Griffs77]

This is very bad news.
It's good news. I bet Marv will try to sign him based on AJ Smith/Butler connection. Oh wait- that's the crack rock talking.....

[Bufsabresnu]

I won't be too worried about this until he plays a few games on that repaired shoulder. He doesn't exactly have a canon and that's on a good arm. I guess I will have to wait and see what kind of shape his arm is in before I start to shake.

[Merk]

I won't be too worried about this until he plays a few games on that repaired shoulder. He doesn't exactly have a canon and that's on a good arm. I guess I will have to wait and see what kind of shape his arm is in before I start to shake.



His injury isnt as bad as some people are making it out to be.



He and his doctors have said he will be able to throw at spring mini camps




People are quick to compare him to Pennington and his injury's but they are not even close

Pennington has had 2 major surgeries on his rotator cuff and Brees injury is nowhere in that league.

[SHINEdown30]

The Fins need more than Brees to be a Super Bowl Contender!


not really.....they have good wideouts and te. A solid running game and a good defense(with ok corners but the pats did ok with theirs so why not) If they sign brees rest assure they will be competing against top teams.

[Bufsabresnu]

Of course Brees and his Doc are going to say he's going to be fine. It would be stupid for them to say otherwise. There are still too many factors for me to worry about this yet.

[BDNS]

The Fins need more than Brees to be a Super Bowl Contender!



I dunno...they went 9-7 with Gus Frerotte. Gus Frerotte (capt. obvious moment of the week) isn't very good.

Even a competent QB under center for the phins make them a playoff team. Miami with Holcomb probably goes 10-6 or even 11-5.

Miami with Brees? That scares me.

[Merk]

I dunno...they went 9-7 with Gus Frerotte. Gus Frerotte (capt. obvious moment of the week) isn't very good.

Even a competent QB under center for the phins make them a playoff team. Miami with Holcomb probably goes 10-6 or even 11-5.

Miami with Brees? That scares me.



I agree Miami w/ Brees is at the least a playoff team

[BillsCAfan]

The Fins need more than Brees to be a Super Bowl Contender!

You're kidding yourself.

The fins are a strong team with a great HC. When you got 9-7 after the shit team they had with a rookie HC, you become dangerous, especially when you bring in a pro bowl QB who would be able to get the ball to McMichael and Chambers, and with Brown a great reciever out of the backfield, and Brees loves throwing to RBs.

If Dolphins get Brees, they are super bowl contenders. Hell without him they are going to be a playoff team.

[Napalm]

You're kidding yourself.

The fins are a strong team with a great HC. When you got 9-7 after the shit team they had with a rookie HC, you become dangerous, especially when you bring in a pro bowl QB who would be able to get the ball to McMichael and Chambers, and with Brown a great reciever out of the backfield, and Brees loves throwing to RBs.

If Dolphins get Brees, they are super bowl contenders. Hell without him they are going to be a playoff team.


The fins are more than likely gonna be a playoff team with or with out Brees. I can agree with you there. The Jets will be lucky to win more than 3 games this year, The Bills (Depending on the opening day roster and DJ's coaching) are in no way a lock to beat last season's mark, and the Patsies BELIEVE IT OR NOT, also are not exactly on the upswing. (Even with ULTRA GOD Tedy Bruschi)

However, if the Fins do get Brees, they are a SUPER BOWL contender? I am not buying that.

[treydawg]

The fins want to win a superbowl about 1000xs more than we want to. I can only sit here and be jealous that their GM is actually trying to make the difference.

[BillsCAfan]

The fins are more than likely gonna be a playoff team with or with out Brees. I can agree with you there. The Jets will be lucky to win more than 3 games this year, The Bills (Depending on the opening day roster and DJ's coaching) are in no way a lock to beat last season's mark, and the Patsies BELIEVE IT OR NOT, also are not exactly on the upswing. (Even with ULTRA GOD Tedy Bruschi)

However, if the Fins do get Brees, they are a SUPER BOWL contender? I am not buying that.

If the Fins are playoff team with or without Brees, you don't think an upgrade of Brees over Frerotte/Rosenfells will make them Super Bowl contending?

[DropTheGloves]

Oh noes.

[nightowltom]

The Dolphins are a good team but far from flawless. The Dolphins would have to do some serious work on their O line, which is not helped by the fact that McMichael is just another big wideout playing in the tight end spot and is not a blocker. I'm not sure if Brees' shoulder is ready for being hit that often because if I'm a Dolphins opponent with any kind of pass rush I'm coming right up the middle again and again and again. After Brees looks to Chambers and McMichael and they're covered, he throws to...who? Booker? aging rapidly. Welker? Mainly a return specialist.

They have some age and durability issues on defense as well probably losing Seau and Madison. Traylor and Schulters are getting older and slower as we speak and Zach Thomas always seems to be nursing some kind of injury at this point in his career. Ricky is gone too and the fact is that he turned out to have a very good season for only being able to play 12 games after the suspension. Don't try to tell me they won't miss his 743 yards and 4.4 yds per carry. How does Brown cope handling the entire load?

[Kuharski]

The Fins need more than Brees to be a Super Bowl Contender!
They need an Offensive coordinator who knows how to utilize QB's , and game plan. M.M. is a dude.
The Bills will tear Brees arms off.

[FinNasty]

This is the word of the town, and I read it on ESPN Insider. If they get Brees, they will be an immediate Super Bowl contender no joke.

I hope it doesn't happen.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/features/rumors?univLogin02=stateChanged

I hope so... the Super Bowl is in Miami! :D

[FinNasty]

The Dolphins are a good team but far from flawless. The Dolphins would have to do some serious work on their O line, which is not helped by the fact that McMichael is just another big wideout playing in the tight end spot and is not a blocker. I'm not sure if Brees' shoulder is ready for being hit that often because if I'm a Dolphins opponent with any kind of pass rush I'm coming right up the middle again and again and again. After Brees looks to Chambers and McMichael and they're covered, he throws to...who? Booker? aging rapidly. Welker? Mainly a return specialist.

They have some age and durability issues on defense as well probably losing Seau and Madison. Traylor and Schulters are getting older and slower as we speak and Zach Thomas always seems to be nursing some kind of injury at this point in his career. Ricky is gone too and the fact is that he turned out to have a very good season for only being able to play 12 games after the suspension. Don't try to tell me they won't miss his 743 yards and 4.4 yds per carry. How does Brown cope handling the entire load?

I aint flaming you for any of this, there are just some things that I wouldnt expect you to know, since you dont follow the team in depth... alot has changed in a year...

A common myth is that our o-line sucks... Well... it really did in 2004... but with the help of Hudson Houck this past season, we significantly reduced our sacks from 50-something to 20-something... It is better in pass protection than run blocking. I am not saying that our o-line is a dominating force by any means... but they are definatly a solid pass protecting o-line. And they are extremely young and getting better with experience. Plus, we will also be making an upgrade or 2 to it as well... (maybe Bently, depending on the cap)

Also, McMike dramatically improved in his pass protection this season.(again, not saying he is a dominating blocking TE, but was very solid this season) With Wanny as the HC, he never had McMike work with the o-line coach on blocking (can you believe that? it sounds retarded... but then again... it is Wanny :rolleyes2 ). In TC, McMike said it was the first time he has had to do drills with the o-line... he always did drills with the WRs...

Booker played solid this season, but isnt anything to brag about. However, Welker was only in his 2nd year last year and it was his 1st year playing WR... and he showed alot of potential out of the slot. He will improve and be used primarily as the #3, and we will get someone else to return kicks... Welker will be very good out of the slot next year... write it down

Madison, while getting old, has now said he will restructure his contract, and most likely will be kept. Seau is worthless, and he didnt even play pretty much the whole season... no loss there... and even though they are also older, Zach and JT are still heavily producing and made the Pro Bowl in their first years in a new defense. They will be fine next season (now after next season... that is a different story)

Also, dont forget if Chambers and McMike are covered, Brees can dump it off to RonnieB... a very good pass catching RB, and that will be something Brees will be used to when he had LT...

Also, Brown will be ready to carry the full load this season... I have absolutly no worries about that...

Now, I'm not saying we will be a Super Bowl contender with Brees... but he would make us a pretty strong team...

[WhiteRabbit]

The fish had a good season last year with a big reason being no one expected what Saban would bring in his first season. Teams will know a lot of his tendencies, and they will game plan better for him. Not to say that they still won't be good, but to call them an instant Superbowl contender because of Brees is a little over the top. Their defense IS aging a bit.

[Stealth01]

Oh yeah. There is that "Mularkey Factor." That could ruin Brees' career more than any shoulder surgery. :D

[DolfanISS]

Well, Brees would have some trouble behind Miami's porous OL. He'd make their passing game more credible until the first 6-sack, 2INT game. Then people would have the formula to beating them. If they improve their OL at the same time, watch out.

Do you watch football??? I know Miami had problems with the Bills pass rush, for some very strange reason as it's very unspectacular, but for the most part the Dolphins O-line was very respectable in 2005. Their runners averaged over 4 yards per carry and they were in the top 10 in fewest sacks allowed. In 2005 Brees was sacked 31 times while Frerrotte and Sage were sacked a combined 26 (All Gus strangely enough). The Chargers, even with the best RB in the NFL, averaged 4.5 YPC to Miami's 4.3 (strangely enough Ronnie and Ricky both averagaed 4.4 and LT averaged 4.3). Not to mention it's a fact that Miamai is looking to upgrade LT and Center if possible. Some Bills fans would say anything, true or not, to discredit any improvements made by the Dolphins.

Actually, I can see why a Bills fan would think Miami's line is terrible as the 2 games vs the Bills were probably the units worst 2 games. Lots of false starts, some sacks and lots of hurries. Sometimes opinions are dictated by the games you watch. If you only watched the Ddolphins in those 2 games, then I can you feel that way. Just like the Chargers, you guys watched them put up 48 on Buffalo so i'm sure you guys thing they were great. Me, I watched Miami beat them at home and I really didn't think they were anything special.

[DolfanISS]

Of course Brees and his Doc are going to say he's going to be fine. It would be stupid for them to say otherwise. There are still too many factors for me to worry about this yet.

It's OK if your skeptical, so was I at first, but then I read the difference between a torn Labrum and torn rotater cuff and I'm 100% sure Bress will make a full recovery. It's OK if we don't share that optimism.

[DolfanISS]

The Dolphins are a good team but far from flawless. The Dolphins would have to do some serious work on their O line, which is not helped by the fact that McMichael is just another big wideout playing in the tight end spot and is not a blocker. I'm not sure if Brees' shoulder is ready for being hit that often because if I'm a Dolphins opponent with any kind of pass rush I'm coming right up the middle again and again and again. After Brees looks to Chambers and McMichael and they're covered, he throws to...who? Booker? aging rapidly. Welker? Mainly a return specialist.

They have some age and durability issues on defense as well probably losing Seau and Madison. Traylor and Schulters are getting older and slower as we speak and Zach Thomas always seems to be nursing some kind of injury at this point in his career. Ricky is gone too and the fact is that he turned out to have a very good season for only being able to play 12 games after the suspension. Don't try to tell me they won't miss his 743 yards and 4.4 yds per carry. How does Brown cope handling the entire load?

Here we go again Tom but this time it's my turn to be of the defensive. Of course the Dolphins are far from flawless, but you picked the wrong spots. The O-line is very underrated (See my other thread for stats as I don't feel like typing it again), great no, but pretty good. Second, how old do you think marty Booker is???? He's 29 years old. No spring chicken by NFL standards but far from washed up IMHO. I agree on Welker and much to the disagreement of many Dolphins fans, who love him, I think we need to upgrade the #3 WR position. Brees suffered a torn Labrum which is much different from a torn rotater cuff. I've read up on the 2 injuries and there is really no reason to believe Drew can't make a full recovery. Then I'll play devils advocate, Madison is talking restructure, Seau bye (don't care, how much has he played over the past 2 years), Manny Wright could be ready to replace Traylor or at least join the rotation, Zach missed 2 games last year and many less over the past 2 than a much younger Richard Seymour, what about Dillon???

You'll always miss a Ricky Williams but Brown showed some flashes and I think he will be ready to shoulder the load.

I think the biggest needs are QB, Secondary, 1 LB for depth, #3 WR, and a powerful Center.

Every team has question marks leading into a new season. It's human nature that fans of the team think those question marks will pan out while rival fans think it's impossible.

[emo]

without really taking an in depth look at the fins while brees would certainly help

there are several needs there, thomas, and taylor, holliday, traylor, and carter are getting older and for some reason it seems that these kinds of guys just age overnight, so they will have to show that they are energized and can make it through a season

with the exception of crowder the linebackers need to be playmakers, and i think crowder is playing out of position on the outside, but he needs to be on the field

the defensive secondary is not very good at all.

saban held this defense together with smoke and mirrors but with that old front 4 a linebacking corps that has one potential playmaker, and a secondary that can be thrown on this defense has some weaknesses and if the d-line looks their age they are in real trouble

but again the draft, and free agency can change the complexion of a team in no time

[Griffs77]

If Miami is making a run a Brees then they are acknowledging that Sage Rosenwhatever is NOT going to be a probowling SB winnin' playa.*

*sarcastic observation

[DolfanISS]

If Miami is making a run a Brees then they are acknowledging that Sage Rosenwhatever is NOT going to be a probowling SB winnin' playa.*

*sarcastic observation

They always thought that. i don't really know whee you are coming from. Sage is actually not even on the Dolphins right now.

[Griffs77]

They always thought that. i don't really know whee you are coming from. Sage is actually not even on the Dolphins right now.
Hence the sarcasim. Sometimes I think my humor is light years ahead of the times.*

*More Sarcasim

[Victor7]

If they land Brees (and his shoulder is fine) they'll win the East. I hate to say it but they are making the right moves

[BuffaloJim51]

If they land Brees (and his shoulder is fine) they'll win the East. I hate to say it but they are making the right moves
Those a pretty big "ifs" but
I have to agree with you.

Like him or not, there was a definite turnaround in Miami's play last year because Saban had 'em playing.

I tend to think that Mularkey will screw things up more than he will help them
but then again, everyone seems to learn from their mistakes in Buffalo
and Miami's offensive line could definitely open holes for the running game that the BILLS OL couldn't.

Amazing how better players can make a coach look so much smarter.

[TRIPLE P]

You're kidding yourself.

The fins are a strong team with a great HC. When you got 9-7 after the shit team they had with a rookie HC, you become dangerous, especially when you bring in a pro bowl QB who would be able to get the ball to McMichael and Chambers, and with Brown a great reciever out of the backfield, and Brees loves throwing to RBs.

If Dolphins get Brees, they are super bowl contenders. Hell without him they are going to be a playoff team.


Brees will improve the fins, I think....

but lets not get carried away...I seem to remember another team who had a 9-7 record as a rookie head coach...the jury is still WAY out on Saban...he looks solid, but he could shit the bucket too..... for a diciplinarian he sure seems to have alot of guys on the police blotter....


Besides...bring on Brees... we have a gentleman by the name of Chris Kelsay who specializes in injuring shoulders.....

I'd love for the Bills to open in Miami, against Brees, and wreck his shoulder for the season in front of the Miami crowd.....spectacular.

[Sparx]

Drew Brees come on down! I want to see you and that giant embryo on your face in a fins helmet.

[Griffs77]

Drew Brees come on down! I want to see you and that giant embryo on your face in a fins helmet.Actually doctors have determined that it is a caterpillar larva ready to emerge and fly away sometime in 2008.

[nightowltom]

If they land Brees (and his shoulder is fine) they'll win the East. I hate to say it but they are making the right moves

The Fins nearly had to go to overtime to beat the 2nd and 3rd strings of the injury decimated Patriots with their first string and you've written the Dolphins in as automatic in the east. This is a game where most of the real Patriots were watching the game in the owner's box in civies and Belichick thought so much of the game that he let Flutie play with his drop kick for laughs. Amazingly, it still came down to the wire with 3rd string qb Matt Cassell trying to tie the game with a two point conversion attempt at the end of regulation.

Even in the first game between the Patriots and the Dolphins, the Patriots used only 2 of their original 11 offensive starters and had to use the immortal Heath Evans (who'd been cut by Miami, ironically) at running back because they no longer had any healthy running backs and the Pats still won--and Evans outrushed Brown and Williams COMBINED.

I think that before the draft, before free agency, before ANY team has done much of anything about 2006 might just be a little early to say the race in the AFC East is over, dontchathink?

[nightowltom]

Here we go again Tom but this time it's my turn to be of the defensive. Of course the Dolphins are far from flawless, but you picked the wrong spots. The O-line is very underrated (See my other thread for stats as I don't feel like typing it again), great no, but pretty good. Second, how old do you think marty Booker is???? He's 29 years old. No spring chicken by NFL standards but far from washed up IMHO. I agree on Welker and much to the disagreement of many Dolphins fans, who love him, I think we need to upgrade the #3 WR position. Brees suffered a torn Labrum which is much different from a torn rotater cuff. I've read up on the 2 injuries and there is really no reason to believe Drew can't make a full recovery. Then I'll play devils advocate, Madison is talking restructure, Seau bye (don't care, how much has he played over the past 2 years), Manny Wright could be ready to replace Traylor or at least join the rotation, Zach missed 2 games last year and many less over the past 2 than a much younger Richard Seymour, what about Dillon???


You'll always miss a Ricky Williams but Brown showed some flashes and I think he will be ready to shoulder the load.

I think the biggest needs are QB, Secondary, 1 LB for depth, #3 WR, and a powerful Center.

Every team has question marks leading into a new season. It's human nature that fans of the team think those question marks will pan out while rival fans think it's impossible.

You seem to have watched the NFL long enough now to know that Booker will be an "old" 30 next year. Since his breakout year in 2001 with 100 catches, his totals have spiraled downward with 97, 52, 50 and only 39 last year. This is not a guy with any real upside left and as a Patriot fan I'd be very happy to see him remain right where he is, clogging up one side of the receiving corps for the Dolphins.

I've always been a big Zach Thomas fan. A smaller guy playing a tough position very well. But all those hits Zach has taken are taking their toll. Although he keeps trying to play, the reality is that over the last two years Thomas has been fighting a series of injuries by mid year and is not the same player at the end of the season as he is early on as a result. I think his time is coming to an end soon and at 33 it wouldn't surprise me if he decides that 2006 is his last season.

As for Brees--I didn't realize that the Fins had signed him but it sure sounds like it from your post. I negotiate contracts as part of my profession and I like to use a type of Yogiism when talking to people who assume a deal has been made when it hasn't been fully completed--the deal isn't done until the deal is done.

[Sparx]

I think his time is coming to an end soon and at 33 it wouldn't surprise me if he decides that 2006 is his last season.

Unless he suffers a very serious injury he won't retire for at least 2-3 years.

[DolfanISS]

The Fins nearly had to go to overtime to beat the 2nd and 3rd strings of the injury decimated Patriots with their first string and you've written the Dolphins in as automatic in the east. This is a game where most of the real Patriots were watching the game in the owner's box in civies and Belichick thought so much of the game that he let Flutie play with his drop kick for laughs. Amazingly, it still came down to the wire with 3rd string qb Matt Cassell trying to tie the game with a two point conversion attempt at the end of regulation.

Even in the first game between the Patriots and the Dolphins, the Patriots used only 2 of their original 11 offensive starters and had to use the immortal Heath Evans (who'd been cut by Miami, ironically) at running back because they no longer had any healthy running backs and the Pats still won--and Evans outrushed Brown and Williams COMBINED.

I think that before the draft, before free agency, before ANY team has done much of anything about 2006 might just be a little early to say the race in the AFC East is over, dontchathink?

I don't think the 2nd and 3rd stringers argument is valid as I don't think it's quite that simple. Miami vs NE is always a tough game. I can think of 2 right off the top of my head, one in the early 90's and another in 2000, where the Dolphins had come to town and squeaked by 2 very bad Patriot teams with a division title on the line. Also, Miami was dominating that game with almost twice the yards, almost twice the TOP and almost twice as many first downs. I think this was clearly a case of the Dolphins coasting at the end and if the Patriot's had kept their starters in this would have still been a very good game.

What about 2004 when Miami beat New England's starters with a team that featured many players who are Miami's 2nd stringers, 2nd and 3rd stringers for other teams or out of the NFL??? I'm betting you didn't read as much into that game.

As far as Brees being signed, I really didn't mean to sound like that as I normally don't jump the gun. My point was simply that a torn rotator cuff and are torn labrum are completely different injuriers. That's all.

I think Booker is still fine for the roll he plays here in Miami. You talk about him peaking back in 2001, that is true but we don't need 100 catches from Booker in Miami. I still say he's a decent #2, far better than NE's #2, who I can't even recall right now.

[nightowltom]

I don't think the 2nd and 3rd stringers argument is valid as I don't think it's quite that simple. Miami vs NE is always a tough game. I can think of 2 right off the top of my head, one in the early 90's and another in 2000, where the Dolphins had come to town and squeaked by 2 very bad Patriot teams with a division title on the line. Also, Miami was dominating that game with almost twice the yards, almost twice the TOP and almost twice as many first downs. I think this was clearly a case of the Dolphins coasting at the end and if the Patriot's had kept their starters in this would have still been a very good game.

What about 2004 when Miami beat New England's starters with a team that featured many players who are Miami's 2nd stringers, 2nd and 3rd stringers for other teams or out of the NFL??? I'm betting you didn't read as much into that game.

As far as Brees being signed, I really didn't mean to sound like that as I normally don't jump the gun. My point was simply that a torn rotator cuff and are torn labrum are completely different injuriers. That's all.

I think Booker is still fine for the roll he plays here in Miami. You talk about him peaking back in 2001, that is true but we don't need 100 catches from Booker in Miami. I still say he's a decent #2, far better than NE's #2, who I can't even recall right now.

This is an unusual post for you as it makes little sense. NO ONE ever tries to coast against a team that they're behind in the standings. In addition, Saban was preaching all week that it was important to finish with 6 consecutive wins as a stepping stone for 2006 so the Dolphins were definitely not "coasting". You also mentioned "if the Patriots had kept their starters in". They were NEVER in. There were something like 14 guys who didn't even dress for the game and most of the starters spent the game up in Bob Kraft's box sipping hot beverages while the Dolphins played their hearts out against the likes of Matt Cassell, Matt Chatham and Heath Evans.

I'm convinced that Belichick set that game up as best he could to be a loss because it would be easier to play Jacksonville in playoffs and the Patriots had to lose to set that up. Even with screwing around letting Flutie try a drop kick the Pats still nearly won.

The end result of all this is that the Dolphins got two major gifts from the Patriots in that they never really played the Patriots last year. In both cases, the guys on that field may have been wearing Patriot uniforms but in no way were they the New England Patriots. In the first game, the Patriots were at their worst point in the season with injuries and even I needed to check a roster to see who some of these guys were--and the Fins couldn't take advantage of that.

In the second game, Zach Thomas was disgusted in interviews after the game because he knew that Belichick threw everyone but the waterboy in and the Dolphins nearly blew that game too.

We'll see what happens this year when the new and improved Dolphins meet a finally healthy Patriot team--should be interesting.

Incidentally--you can't really believe that Marty Booker is a better football player than David Givens, can you?

[DolfanISS]

This is an unusual post for you as it makes little sense. NO ONE ever tries to coast against a team that they're behind in the standings. In addition, Saban was preaching all week that it was important to finish with 6 consecutive wins as a stepping stone for 2006 so the Dolphins were definitely not "coasting". You also mentioned "if the Patriots had kept their starters in". They were NEVER in. There were something like 14 guys who didn't even dress for the game and most of the starters spent the game up in Bob Kraft's box sipping hot beverages while the Dolphins played their hearts out against the likes of Matt Cassell, Matt Chatham and Heath Evans.

I'm convinced that Belichick set that game up as best he could to be a loss because it would be easier to play Jacksonville in playoffs and the Patriots had to lose to set that up. Even with screwing around letting Flutie try a drop kick the Pats still nearly won.

The end result of all this is that the Dolphins got two major gifts from the Patriots in that they never really played the Patriots last year. In both cases, the guys on that field may have been wearing Patriot uniforms but in no way were they the New England Patriots. In the first game, the Patriots were at their worst point in the season with injuries and even I needed to check a roster to see who some of these guys were--and the Fins couldn't take advantage of that.

In the second game, Zach Thomas was disgusted in interviews after the game because he knew that Belichick threw everyone but the waterboy in and the Dolphins nearly blew that game too.

We'll see what happens this year when the new and improved Dolphins meet a finally healthy Patriot team--should be interesting.

Incidentally--you can't really believe that Marty Booker is a better football player than David Givens, can you?

David Givens is a free agent, which means he is not a Patriot right now. If you honestly believe that the Dolphins were not in cruise control entering the 4th quarter of a meaningless game in which they had dominated for 3 quarters, I guess we just disagree. I agree with you about the first meeting but Miami had not hit their stride at that point. Besides, what about that porous Dolphins team thar beat the Pats on Monday night last year??? Miami beat the Patriots full team with AJ Feely at QB. I chalk up all divisioanl upsets, or in the case of last year's New Years game would be upsets, to intense divisional rivalriers. Not to mention to say the starters were never in??? Geeze, I was at the game and I seem to remember Ben Watson scoring a TD in 4th quarter, and Deion Branch going in and out of the game in the 4th. The only 2 defensive starters that were out at the begining of the game were Bruschi and Seymour (what else is new). We will see next year. Just to clarify, I know the Dolphins will be greatly improved next year but that doesn't mean I'm 100% sure they will over take the Pats. Brees would increase those chances, and it's defenitley possible he ends up in Miami next year.

[nightowltom]

David Givens is a free agent, which means he is not a Patriot right now. If you honestly believe that the Dolphins were not in cruise control entering the 4th quarter of a meaningless game in which they had dominated for 3 quarters, I guess we just disagree. I agree with you about the first meeting but Miami had not hit their stride at that point. Besides, what about that porous Dolphins team thar beat the Pats on Monday night last year??? I chalk up all divisioanl upsets, or in the case of last year's New Years game would be upsets, to intense divisional rivalriers. Not to mention to say the starters were never in??? Geeze, I was at the game and I seem to remember Ben Watson scoring a TD in 4th quarter, and Deion Branch going in and out of the game in the 4th. The only 2 defensive starters that were out at the begining of the game were Bruschi and Seymour (what else is new). We will see next year. Just to clarify, I know the Dolphins will be greatly improved next year but that doesn't mean I'm 100% sure they will over take the Pats. Brees would increase those chances, and it's defenitley possible he ends up in Miami next year.

You said that the Dolphins No. 2 receiver was better than the Patriots No. 2 receiver. When I pointed out that Booker doesn't match up to Givens, you pointed out that Givens is a free agent. If that's your criteria, Booker is in fact better than NO No. 2 receiver and will remain better--at least until the Patriots either sign Givens or a replacement. Savor the victory--you couldn't have been more fair.

Regarding the second game. Actually...in the second half the only defensive starter that WAS in was Ty Warren because there were no backups left. Watson had to play for the same reason but it was "All Pros" Andre Davis and Bam Childress that were catching pass after pass from Matt Cassell against the Dolphins first string D. Quite a confidence builder. No wonder Thomas was so irritated at the D's performance in a win.

Don't bother me with a fluke game from two seasons ago. The reality is that the Dolphins were so bad that the Patriots couldn't take them seriously and came out flat and the Dolphins won in the last second by completing a pass on defensive back Troy Brown. I do remember something about the Patriots going on to win the Super Bowl that season. If that's what constitutes great memories for Dolphin fans you'd better hope that Saban is everything he's promised because 1983 was a LONG time ago.

[DolfanISS]

You said that the Dolphins No. 2 receiver was better than the Patriots No. 2 receiver. When I pointed out that Booker doesn't match up to Givens, you pointed out that Givens is a free agent. If that's your criteria, Booker is in fact better than NO No. 2 receiver and will remain better--at least until the Patriots either sign Givens or a replacement. Savor the victory--you couldn't have been more fair.

Regarding the second game. Actually...in the second half the only defensive starter that WAS in was Ty Warren because there were no backups left. Watson had to play for the same reason but it was "All Pros" Andre Davis and Bam Childress that were catching pass after pass from Matt Cassell against the Dolphins first string D. Quite a confidence builder. No wonder Thomas was so irritated at the D's performance in a win.

Don't bother me with a fluke game from two seasons ago. The reality is that the Dolphins were so bad that the Patriots couldn't take them seriously and came out flat and the Dolphins won in the last second by completing a pass on defensive back Troy Brown. I do remember something about the Patriots going on to win the Super Bowl that season. If that's what constitutes great memories for Dolphin fans you'd better hope that Saban is everything he's promised because 1983 was a LONG time ago.

OK Tom, I really wasn't trying to trick you with the Givens vs Booker thing, I honestly said what I said knowing that Givens was a free agent and the Pats have a void at #2 WR. Booker, although older than Givens, has been (might be the key phrase) a more accomplished NFL receiver. Givens may be better now, as his stats would indicate, but I don't think he's that much better. The 2 are probably a lot closer than you're willing to admit.

As far as the the 2 games we reference above. The point I'm trying to make is when two rival teams tee it up on Sunday, anything can happen. The Dolphins struggle in Foxboro regardless of who is on the field, just as the Pats struggle in Miami. In 1992, I think, the Dolphins traveled up here with a division title on the line, and almost lost to the likes of Jeff Carlson and Scott Lackwood (I was at the game). In 2000 the Dolpins traveled up here and with a win over the 5-11 Patriots they would win the division, it took a last second field goal. That was the last time Miami had won up here.

On this past New Years the Dolphins entered the 4th quarter on the last game of their season up by 15 points and dominating every key game stat. They thought they had the game wrapped up. You can quote Nick Saban's message until you're blue in the face and it changes nothing. It was still the 4th quarter of the last game of Miami's season in which they were up by 15 and DOMINATING statistically (despite the comeback they still did).

You actually think the Patriots backup players are as good as Miami's starters because of this game. Yet, won't acknowledge the big upset in Miami the year before. I'm saying both were flukes and anything can happen when rival teams meet. I'm not sitting here trying to tell you that the AJ Feeley led Dolphins were better than the 2004 Pats. That would be stupid. I'm just trying to solidify my any given Sunday, Miami struggles in New England regardless of the factors arguement.

I'm 10000000000% confident that if the Dolphins met the Matt Cassel led Patriots in a MEANINGFUL game in which gameplanning for Cassel and his cast could be inserted that it would not be close.

Go ahead and rub the Super Bowls in my nose, that's something nice for Patriots fans to fall back on. I just want to let you know how much I enjoyed that Denver game last season. IMHO, the Patriots couldn't have lost in better fashion.

[TheAnswer74]

It's OK if your skeptical, so was I at first, but then I read the difference between a torn Labrum and torn rotater cuff and I'm 100% sure Bress will make a full recovery. It's OK if we don't share that optimism.

Look what I found on a Miami Dolphin message board. A Bills fan posted, and not many Miami Dolphin fans have even responded to it. Denial maybe.

"Two separate injuries occur to the shoulder area – a torn labrum and a torn rotator cuff. Tears in the labrum are much more serious than rotator cuff tears, due to the nature of the anatomical parts themselves. "

"When the muscles tear in the rotator cuff, typically in the supraspinatus, the area needs to be surgically repaired. The same is true in the case of a torn labrum, but two crucial factors make the labrum injury a career-threatening endeavor, while those who have undergone rotator cuff surgery have a much greater track record of recovery and post-operative success. "

"Why is the rotator cuff much more likely to heal properly than the labrum?

Muscles can be strengthened, even beyond their original levels, both surgically and naturally with proper rehabilitation and rest. The labrum is not made up of muscles, and the collagens that make up the labrum are unable to be strengthened, surgically, nor naturally. The only hope is that the natural healing process is effective enough and fast enough for the pitcher to return to action within two or three calendar years. The surgery cleans the labrum and reattaches the torn areas to their opposing connection. "

"The labrum provides the shoulder with shock absorption and is an important part of its overall connective structure. When it tears, the strength in the shoulder is reduced greatly, "

http://mariners.**********/2/422181.html Replace the ****** with scout .com

[DolfanISS]

Look what I found on a Miami Dolphin message board. A Bills fan posted, and not many Miami Dolphin fans have even responded to it. Denial maybe.

"Two separate injuries occur to the shoulder area – a torn labrum and a torn rotator cuff. Tears in the labrum are much more serious than rotator cuff tears, due to the nature of the anatomical parts themselves. "

"When the muscles tear in the rotator cuff, typically in the supraspinatus, the area needs to be surgically repaired. The same is true in the case of a torn labrum, but two crucial factors make the labrum injury a career-threatening endeavor, while those who have undergone rotator cuff surgery have a much greater track record of recovery and post-operative success. "

"Why is the rotator cuff much more likely to heal properly than the labrum?

Muscles can be strengthened, even beyond their original levels, both surgically and naturally with proper rehabilitation and rest. The labrum is not made up of muscles, and the collagens that make up the labrum are unable to be strengthened, surgically, nor naturally. The only hope is that the natural healing process is effective enough and fast enough for the pitcher to return to action within two or three calendar years. The surgery cleans the labrum and reattaches the torn areas to their opposing connection. "

"The labrum provides the shoulder with shock absorption and is an important part of its overall connective structure. When it tears, the strength in the shoulder is reduced greatly, "

http://mariners.**********/2/422181.html Replace the ****** with scout .com

Well congratulations, you found the one negative post on the injury in the midst of the many positive ones thar are backed up by links. Do I need to post them??? Did you know that Rich Gannon suffered a torn labrum prior to his MVP season??? Do you think he recovered??

You know what's getting lost in this thread where I'm mostly just sticking up for the Dolphins?? I'd actually rather go after McNair and have a long term solution behind him. I believe Brees will be fine and know he's an upgrade over Gus, who wouldn't be Losman ahh nevermind, but I like QB's with bigger arms. Frerrotte is actually capable of making any throw as he has a cannon. He's just inaccurate.

[nightowltom]

Look what I found on a Miami Dolphin message board. A Bills fan posted, and not many Miami Dolphin fans have even responded to it. Denial maybe.

"Two separate injuries occur to the shoulder area – a torn labrum and a torn rotator cuff. Tears in the labrum are much more serious than rotator cuff tears, due to the nature of the anatomical parts themselves. "

"When the muscles tear in the rotator cuff, typically in the supraspinatus, the area needs to be surgically repaired. The same is true in the case of a torn labrum, but two crucial factors make the labrum injury a career-threatening endeavor, while those who have undergone rotator cuff surgery have a much greater track record of recovery and post-operative success. "

"Why is the rotator cuff much more likely to heal properly than the labrum?

Muscles can be strengthened, even beyond their original levels, both surgically and naturally with proper rehabilitation and rest. The labrum is not made up of muscles, and the collagens that make up the labrum are unable to be strengthened, surgically, nor naturally. The only hope is that the natural healing process is effective enough and fast enough for the pitcher to return to action within two or three calendar years. The surgery cleans the labrum and reattaches the torn areas to their opposing connection. "

"The labrum provides the shoulder with shock absorption and is an important part of its overall connective structure. When it tears, the strength in the shoulder is reduced greatly, "

http://mariners.**********/2/422181.html Replace the ****** with scout .com
Actually Mr. Reality is correct with regard to football quarterbacks. A labrum injury is huge if you're a baseball pitcher but the motion of throwing a football makes a rotator cuff injury much more serious to a qb. As just one example, Pedro Martinez has a labrum problem and he's afraid to have it operated on because a similar operation effectively ended his brother's pitching career. That's why his arm tires as the season wears on. A football qb throws much more with the shoulder than a pitcher so the stress on the rotator cuff is huge. When they are repaired, often velocity is lost and that can easily end a promising career like it seems to have for Jim Miller, Tim Couch and Chad Pennington. Although nothing's guaranteed, I would be surprised if Brees does not make a full recovery.

[nightowltom]

OK Tom, I really wasn't trying to trick you with the Givens vs Booker thing, I honestly said what I said knowing that Givens was a free agent and the Pats have a void at #2 WR. Booker, although older than Givens, has been (might be the key phrase) a more accomplished NFL receiver. Givens may be better now, as his stats would indicate, but I don't think he's that much better. The 2 are probably a lot closer than you're willing to admit.

As far as the the 2 games we reference above. The point I'm trying to make is when two rival teams tee it up on Sunday, anything can happen. The Dolphins struggle in Foxboro regardless of who is on the field, just as the Pats struggle in Miami. In 1992, I think, the Dolphins traveled up here with a division title on the line, and almost lost to the likes of Jeff Carlson and Scott Lackwood (I was at the game). In 2000 the Dolpins traveled up here and with a win over the 5-11 Patriots they would win the division, it took a last second field goal. That was the last time Miami had won up here.

On this past New Years the Dolphins entered the 4th quarter on the last game of their season up by 15 points and dominating every key game stat. They thought they had the game wrapped up. You can quote Nick Saban's message until you're blue in the face and it changes nothing. It was still the 4th quarter of the last game of Miami's season in which they were up by 15 and DOMINATING statistically (despite the comeback they still did).

You actually think the Patriots backup players are as good as Miami's starters because of this game. Yet, won't acknowledge the big upset in Miami the year before. I'm saying both were flukes and anything can happen when rival teams meet. I'm not sitting here trying to tell you that the AJ Feeley led Dolphins were better than the 2004 Pats. That would be stupid. I'm just trying to solidify my any given Sunday, Miami struggles in New England regardless of the factors arguement.

I'm 10000000000% confident that if the Dolphins met the Matt Cassel led Patriots in a MEANINGFUL game in which gameplanning for Cassel and his cast could be inserted that it would not be close.

Go ahead and rub the Super Bowls in my nose, that's something nice for Patriots fans to fall back on. I just want to let you know how much I enjoyed that Denver game last season. IMHO, the Patriots couldn't have lost in better fashion.

You were the one who brought up the 2004 season--twice as a matter of fact--before I responded. If you don't want to hear about a Super Bowl, don't bring up a Super Bowl season!

You enjoyed the defeat at Denver? Stop the presses! lol. By the way, who did the Dolphins play that week?

[DolfanISS]

You were the one who brought up the 2004 season--twice as a matter of fact--before I responded. If you don't want to hear about a Super Bowl, don't bring up a Super Bowl season!

You enjoyed the defeat at Denver? Stop the presses! lol. By the way, who did the Dolphins play that week?

They played the same team the Pats played the week after that one.

[nightowltom]

They played the same team the Pats played the week after that one.

In the middle of January? The way I hear it week 19 is the second week of golfing season in Miami Gardens.

[Mouldsie]

I never hurt my labrum but I had a rotator cuff injury once and damn is it hard to throw a football..... mad props to Chad Pennington



continue

[TigerJ]

He will make them better than they were last season, and harder to leapfrog over them

[CBennett]

dudes arm is not gonna be right. he didn't have the deep arm previously, now it will be worse. i hope the Fins pay through the nose for him and he goes back to pre 2004 Brees. damn I hate the Fins...


Actually according to all the reports this IS a injury you come back 100% from so his arm will be no worse. They had a doctor on talking about it and he said that its a 100% injury meaning he will lose no strength,flexability,and NOT be more injury prone once its healed. They had the doctor on becuase so many guys were asking about just that...will his arm be as good and they said yes.

[DolfanISS]

In the middle of January? The way I hear it week 19 is the second week of golfing season in Miami Gardens.

All right, all right. You've Happy Gilmored me enough. I know golfing season has started early in South Florida since 01. Hopefully that changes soon.