National Health Care

[freedomfrypizza]

Can someone please enlighten me on this subject? I didn't know enough to debate my professor today in class, so I wish to know more. I brought up the subject that it could take 6 months in England to get in to see a doctor and my professor pretty much shot me down and said no that it wasn't true. Her words were something along the lines of, "Nope. Sorry. I know people in Europe and Canada and none of them have any problem getting in to see a doctor. Sorry. Not true." Just then this girl in front of me spoke up and said that she lived in England before, and it took her about 6 months to get in and have her migraines checked out. It was great being able to prove my bitch of a professor wrong on that point, but I wish I was able to say more.

[sukie]

Do not debate a liberal on National Healthcare... It's a waste of time.

[TRIPLE P]

It really is.... Cons have no heart, compassion, or sense of responsibility when it comes to thier fellow man....

If it came down to having a big screen HDTV and letting a poor person die in the cold the Con would have already called DirectTV to preorder NFL Sunday ticket superfan.....

You see, to the Cons, having healthcare lets everyone know that they "made it"... that they work hard, and that they are smarter.... it has nothing to do with actually being healthy, or living... its a status symbol....

Low co-pays on Dr visits are the new BMW's to the con....

Strangely enough, its the Con who want to take our tax money and spend it overseas helping the poor in other countries........well, not really helping..... just blowing them up, and controlling thier land and resources in the name of "freedom"

[sukie]

No you see the libs have an agenda of providing for the masses and beating thier chests around election time by pointing out how great everything is in the country "because look what is provided for you by us. " The regard anyone that is successful as evil and unimportant. Don't start a business because if successful you will be taxed to death. But remain in squaller and you will get all things provided for you. Bettering yourself is counter productive to thier goals.

[TRIPLE P]

There is nothing wrong with making money... there is nothing wrong with trying hard and being successful..... and if you do those things you'll live a life of comfort and have anything you desire....

There are just some things that shouldn't be put ahead of the health and well being of our fellow man....more specifically, our countrymen...

No one wants to give TV, and imported beer to the poor.... only to provide them with the ability to live a healthy life....

I am truly saddened that some people would let the poor suffer and die just to prove some point about work ethic....pathetic

[sukie]

What poor are suffering? Where? That is a very passionate statement considering the free clinics and county and state programs that provide healthcare. Remember medicaid? It's already in place.

[nehemiah]

never have a debate about national healthcare with a person who makes his living price-gouging patients in a made up job.




:D

[sukie]

Price gouging was in the 80's... FACT.
Not anymore... FACT FACT.

[nehemiah]

Price gouging was in the 80's... FACT.
Not anymore... FACT FACT.yeah right.

they made up entire careers just to charge people more.

[sukie]

Comon, obvious volunteer social worker... you wanted to rumble... let's go.

[nehemiah]

Comon, obvious volunteer social worker... you wanted to rumble... let's go.non profit social worker... i took half of what i could earn for a job that allows me to argue with the govt every day.

:upyours2: not like your lily white candy-*** profession.

my conscience is clean as a whistle. yours is dirty like your ***.

[TheGoodShepherd]

No you see the libs have an agenda of providing for the masses and beating thier chests around election time by pointing out how great everything is in the country "because look what is provided for you by us. " The regard anyone that is successful as evil and unimportant. Don't start a business because if successful you will be taxed to death. But remain in squaller and you will get all things provided for you. Bettering yourself is counter productive to thier goals.

I have no idea what stupidity you're trying to say this time.

But public heathcare is more cost-efficent than private healthcare. We've been over this a million times. Canada, with it's public system, costs less per person than the U.S.

Go ahead. Argue the 'business' side. Public health-care wins out, even on that front.

It's an undisputable fact.

[sukie]

Gee if only our nation had the population the size of 7/8th California... Can't extrapolate.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Gee if only our nation had the population the size of 7/8th California... Can't extrapolate.

Are you that dense?The numbers take the difference in size into account.

You have no argument left.

Please start another thread on another topic. You lost this one. And in an embarrasing manner.

[sukie]

So in your astounding argument... if we nationalized healthcare... the government would be paying less than it is right now? Impossible. Chimpy your point proved my nonaffordable arguement. Thank you.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Looks like it might be time to break out the link. Because you clearly need to read things over and over and over again until it finally semi-sticks into your head.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Hey sukie, did you know that bureaucracy accounts for at least 31 percent of total U.S. health spending compared to 16.7 percent in Canada?

LOL

You are so easy to beat in a debate.

HAhAHA

[smaweet]

I have no idea what stupidity you're trying to say this time.

But public heathcare is more cost-efficent than private healthcare. We've been over this a million times. Canada, with it's public system, costs less per person than the U.S.

Go ahead. Argue the 'business' side. Public health-care wins out, even on that front.

It's an undisputable fact.



When was the last time the Canadians came out with a ground-breaking new medical procedure?

Oh wait.

The only thing the Canadians can do is get cheap poorly made drugs from India that don't recognize USA patent laws or safety regulations.



Theres already too many damn people in the world. Why should we support a lazy-cultures mistakes? That's "progressive?"

[sukie]

so how does YOUR system work here... it doesn't.

[TheGoodShepherd]

The only thing the Canadians can do is get cheap poorly made drugs from India that don't recognize USA patent laws or safety regulations.

WOW stupidity has reached new heights!

We have STINGIER regulations than the FDA.

LOL

OMG you are soooooooooooooooooooo misinformed.

Utterly pathetic...but NOT, I repeat NOT surprising.

[TheGoodShepherd]

so how does YOUR system work here... it doesn't.

Am I talking to a FAT brick wall?

You could SAVE MONEY. Do you need me to repeat it a MILLION times???? YOU COULD SAVE MONEY

If I remember correctly, the HARVARD study im referencing said there could be administrative savings of $286 billion


Is your IQ really that low???

With those savings you could...

-Offset the cost of covering the uninsured (estimated at $80 billion)

-Cover all out-of-pocket prescription drugs costs for seniors as well as those under 65 (estimated at $53 billion in 2003)

-Fund retraining and job placement programs for insurance workers and others who would lose their jobs under NHI (estimated at $20 billion)

-Make substantial improvements in coverage and quality of care for U.S. consumers who already have insurance

Like I said...it's too easy debating with you.

You have YET to counter any of my arguments.

[sukie]

you forget a couple of things. One is the cost of prescription drugs is strikingly differentin Canada than here in the US. You quote one letter written by Harvard guys... Okay... Why do Canadian doctors leave Canada?

[sukie]

More doctors per capita than Canada each of which earn more than in Canada.

In Canada... Specialists may require an additional fee (eliminates the poor from going to a specialist. the technology for diagnostics is far more advanced and expensive in the US than in Canada.

Healthcare workers are better paid in the US than in Canada. primary reason for Canadian emmigration of physicians to the US.

The propensity for Drug abuse, obesty, and violence is much more profound in the US than in Canada which results in far higher health care issues.

Litigation costsare far and above much higher in the States than up north.

[uppy]

Do not debate a liberal on National Healthcare... It's a waste of time.

How true.

To liberals national healthcare = control over people and that is the main
goal of all good socialist.

[smaweet]

WOW stupidity has reached new heights!

We have STINGIER regulations than the FDA.

LOL

OMG you are soooooooooooooooooooo misinformed.

Utterly pathetic...but NOT, I repeat NOT surprising.



The FDA is overshadowed by a whole bunch of religious zealots. It takes us forever to get anything approved, if it even does at all. Whats stingier on your side of the wall? Emissions on the archaic drugs? The future of Western medicine has nothing to do with those chemicals anymore.

You just buy knock-offs of our drugs from India for ch$ap. If your drug market was open to us, your drugs would increase in cost simply because of more demand. That's why your government went ahead and put up a trade barrier of its own before our government opened it up from our side.

durr

[shiva2999]

When was the last time the Canadians came out with a ground-breaking new medical procedure?

LOL! The "Wart on your johnson" rationale. I love it.

Of course companies that wish to market groundbreaking medical technologies have an overriding interest in operating in the American market, it's the richest in the world.

The question is, like I asked upstart, does leading the world in johnson wart removal justify a system that leaves 45 million out in the cold and forces all the rest to pay a grotesque premium for decent healthcare?

[CoachC.]

This is a good thread. Educational and informative. But after 26 posts, I'm still curious as to freedomfrypizza's original discussion about taking so long to see a doctor in Canada and/or England.

Is this normal practice and is it due to their healthcare system?
If it is, how can that be good for anyone?

[sukie]

Coach. Ever hear of P.E.T. scanners? There are more of these diagnostic machines in the Tampa area than there are in Canada. 2004 They installed the first Gamma knife system... see a trend?

[freedomfrypizza]

This is a good thread. Educational and informative. But after 26 posts, I'm still curious as to freedomfrypizza's original discussion about taking so long to see a doctor in Canada and/or England.

Is this normal practice and is it due to their healthcare system?
If it is, how can that be good for anyone?

Thanks, I agree. I haven't received much info from this thread, but it sure has been entertaining.

[smaweet]

This is a good thread. Educational and informative. But after 26 posts, I'm still curious as to freedomfrypizza's original discussion about taking so long to see a doctor in Canada and/or England.

Is this normal practice and is it due to their healthcare system?
If it is, how can that be good for anyone?


That's because the Canadians and Finnish enjoy the lines at the DMV.

My loyalty is to my family. My legacy. And, due the practicality, the country that keeps my right and ensures my safety to pursue a grander legacy.

Libbies would rather live like its the stoneage, simply waiting for natural disasters to clear the human genome from the pool, and not progressing at all because thats the cheapest way they can imagine to keep everyone happy.

Socialist states can continue to leech off of our technology, and hell, if they're going to admit inferority in progression to the modern world, power to them! National Health Care works in those countries at the expensive of the middle class. Taxes are jacked up for the poor not to pay, the middle class to lose a substantial source of their income, and for the rich to control their businesses from out of the country. The middle class loses their ability to save money when they pay it all to taxes. Competition is lost in a government-run state and technology comes to a standstill. Without competition, the citizens power is really lost. Bureacracy is not efficient enough to meet most demands. Yes, people do wait in lines for years for their 6-month check-ups and dental services. In many cases, if people can afford it, they see their own private doctors and don't even utilize inadequate government facilities. It is a great system for the extremely poor since they have less to worry about to get up to the poverty-line level, but IMO it is not worth the cost that it cripples the power of competition in the system.

It's all a matter of what cause you feel responsible for. If you believe that we should make everybody happy, progress slowly, and wait for overpopulation to result in grand revolts and wars, move to Canada! Otherwise, you can be cold-hearted to the few and be a champion of competition and the privelages earned by the lucky and hard-working while battling minor quarrels. The American way.

If your country is so great, why aren't all the illegals running into your country? Be happy your position in the world and natural climate deters many of the poor and wretched. Same goes for Finland.

[shiva2999]

Luke

10:25
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

10:26
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

10:28
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

10:29
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

10:30
And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

10:31
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

10:32
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

10:33
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

10:34
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

10:35
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

10:36
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

10:37
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

[sukie]

Shiva... off topic but I can't figure out what is taking place in that av of yours.

[shiva2999]

The Law of the Jungle
Rudyard Kipling


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOW this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky;
And the Wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the Wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk the Law runneth forward and back—
For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

Wash daily from nose-tip to tail-tip; drink deeply, but never too deep;
And remember the night is for hunting, and forget not the day is for sleep.

The jackal may follow the Tiger, but, Cub, when thy whiskers are grown,
Remember the Wolf is a hunter—go forth and get food of thine own.

Keep peace with the Lords of the Jungle—the Tiger, the Panther, the Bear;
And trouble not Hathi the Silent, and mock not the Boar in his lair.

When Pack meets with Pack in the Jungle, and neither will go from the trail,
Lie down till the leaders have spoken—it may be fair words shall prevail.

When ye fight with a Wolf of the Pack, ye must fight him alone and afar,
Lest others take part in the quarrel, and the Pack be diminished by war.

The Lair of the Wolf is his refuge, and where he has made him his home,
Not even the Head Wolf may enter, not even the Council may come.

The Lair of the Wolf is his refuge, but where he has digged it too plain,
The Council shall send him a message, and so he shall change it again.

If ye kill before midnight, be silent, and wake not the woods with your bay,
Lest ye frighten the deer from the crops, and the brothers go empty away.

Ye may kill for yourselves, and your mates, and your cubs as they need, and ye can;
But kill not for pleasure of killing, and seven times never kill Man!

If ye plunder his Kill from a weaker, devour not all in thy pride;
Pack-Right is the right of the meanest; so leave him the head and the hide.

The Kill of the Pack is the meat of the Pack. Ye must eat where it lies;
And no one may carry away of that meat to his lair, or he dies.

The Kill of the Wolf is the meat of the Wolf. He may do what he will,
But, till he has given permission, the Pack may not eat of that Kill.

Cub-Right is the right of the Yearling. From all of his Pack he may claim
Full-gorge when the killer has eaten; and none may refuse him the same.

Lair-Right is the right of the Mother. From all of her year she may claim
One haunch of each kill for her litter; and none may deny her the same.

Cave-Right is the right of the Father—to hunt by himself for his own:
He is freed of all calls to the Pack; he is judged by the Council alone.

Because of his age and his cunning, because of his gripe and his paw,
In all that the Law leaveth open, the word of the Head Wolf is Law.

Now these are the Laws of the jungle, and many and mighty are they;
But the head and the hoof of the Law and the haunch and the hump is—Obey!

[nehemiah]

:rockon: to luis bunuel!

[shiva2999]

Shiva... off topic but I can't figure out what is taking place in that av of yours.

Luis Bunuel's "Un Chien Andalou". Compatriot and collaborator of Salvador Dali.

This section of the film involved an eyeball being cut with a straight razor.

Bunuel showed people how they could be convinced they'd seen something they hadn't actually seen.

[smaweet]

"Don't worry. I'm not going to vanish. Let them all give up and stop
Working. I won't. I don't know my limit and don't care. All I have to
Know is that I can't be stopped."
"Any man can be stopped, Mr. Rearden."
"How?
"It's only a matter of knowing man's motive power."
"What is it?"
"You ought to know, Mr. Rearden. You're one of the last moral
Men left to the world."
Rearden chuckled in bitter amusement. "I've been called just about
Everything but that. And you're wrong. You have no idea how wrong."
"Are you sure?"
"I ought to know. Moral? What on earth made you say it?"
Francisco pointed to the mills beyond the window. "This."
For a long moment, Rearden looked at him without moving, then
Asked only, "What do you mean?"
"If you want to see an abstract principle, such as moral action, in
Material form-there it is. Look at it, Mr. Rearden. Every girder of it,
Every pipe, wire and valve was put there by a choice in answer to the
Question: right or wrong? You had to choose right and you had to
Choose the best within your knowledge-the best for your purpose,
Which was to make steel-and then move on and extend the knowledge,
And do better, and still better, with your purpose as your standard of
Value. You had to act on your own judgment, you had to have the
Capacity to judge, the courage to stand on the verdict of your mind, and
The purest, the most ruthless consecration to the rule of doing right, of
Doing the best, the utmost best possible to you. Nothing could have
Made you act against your judgment, and you would have rejected as
Wrong as evil-any man who attempted to tell you that the best way
To heat a furnace was to fill it with ice. Millions of men, an entire
Nation, were not able to deter you from producing Rearden Metal-be-
Cause you had the knowledge of its superlative value and the power
Which such knowledge gives. But what I wonder about, Mr. Rearden,
Is why you live by one code of principles when you deal with nature?
And by another when you deal with men?"
Rearden's eyes were fixed on him so intently that the question came
Slowly, as if the effort to pronounce it were a distraction: "What do you
Mean?"
"Why don't you hold to the purpose of your life as clearly and
Rigidly as you hold to the purpose of your mills?"
"What do you mean?"
"You're guilty of a great sin, Mr. Rearden, much guiltier than they
Tell you, but not in the way they preach. The worst guilt is to accept an
Undeserved guilt-and that is what you have been doing all your life.
You have been paying blackmail, not for your vices, but for your
Virtues. You have been willing to carry the load of an unearned punish-
ment-and to let it grow the heavier the greater the virtues you
Practiced. But your virtues were those, which keep men alive. Your
Own moral code-the one you lived by, but never stated, acknowledged
Or defended-was the code that preserves man's existence. If you were
Punished for it, what was the nature of those who punished you?
Yours was the code of life. What, then, is theirs? What standard of
value lies at its root? What is its ultimate purpose? Do you think that
what you're facing is merely a conspiracy to seize your wealth? You,
who know the source of wealth, should know it's much more and
much worse than that. Did you ask me to name man's motive power?
Man's motive power is his moral code. Ask yourself where their code is
leading you and what it offers you as your final goal. A viler evil than
to murder a man, is to sell him suicide as an act of virtue. A viler evil
than to throw a man into a sacrificial furnace, is to demand that he
leap in, of his own will, and that he build the furnace, besides. By their
own statement, it is they who need you and have nothing to offer you
in return. By their own statement, you must support them because they
cannot survive without you. Consider the obscenity of offering their
impotence and their need-their need of you-as a justification for
your torture. Are you willing to accept it? Do you care to purchase-at
the price of your great endurance, at the price of your agony-the
satisfaction of the needs of your own destroyers?"
"No!"
"Mr. Rearden," said Francisco, his voice solemnly calm, "if you saw
Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that
he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms
trembling but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his
strength, and the greater his effort the heavier the world bore down
upon his shoulders-what would you tell him to do?"
"I . . . don't know. What . . . could he do? What would you
tell him?"
"To shrug."

[shiva2999]

Ayn Rand?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[shiva2999]

http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.8.22.0219.37804.html

Understanding Ayn Rand through the music of Rush

Author:
zikzak
Topic:
Liberal Myths
Posted:
Aug 22, 2001

Many people have unfairly maligned Ayn Rand, the greatest philosopher of the 20th century. This has always confounded me, for no other person has developed such a rational approach to living as she. I believe the underlying reason is that most of her works, like The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, are simply too complex and involved for most people. Thankfully, a group of Canadian musicians took the time during the 80's to distill the complexity of Rand's philosophy into music that we can all understand.

Modern rock pioneers Rush not only produce some of the hardest rocking tunes ever recorded, they also are pioneers when it comes to infusing rock music with deep insight into the natures of human behavior. The band consists of guitarist Alex Lifeson, deeply crooning singer/bass & keyboard player Geddy Lee, and drummer/lyricist Neil Peart. Peart is mostly known for his wildly improvisational, jazz-inspired drumming technique, but he plays an even greater role as the person who has single handedly brought the power of Ayn Rand's Objectivism to a level that can be understood by even the most stereotypically ignorant, drug-addled teen.

Ayn Rand's highly influential Objectivism is a deep topic, and her purely philosophical writings on it are quite dense. Realizing this, she took on the task of translating her thoughts into the realm of fiction in order to make it more accessible to the general public. Unfortunately, the task still proved formidable, and two of her resulting books totaled over 1,000 pages each. The complex nature of what she advocates even dictated that she spend the final 50 some-odd pages of Atlas Shrugged reiterating everything she had spent the previous 1,000 pages explaining. Thankfully, Neil Pert was up to the task of reinterpreting her work for her in layman's language.


Live for yourself, there's no one else
More worth living for
Begging hands and bleeding hearts will
Only cry out for more
Rush - Anthem
With that one verse Peart has reached deep into the very core of what is important in Objectivism. Utilizing the power and reach of rock music, he and his bandmates have taught us much of what being an Objectivist is really all about. But how is it that a humble drummer was capable of such a feat? Quite simply, it was due to his environment. You see, Rush is a Canadian band, and as such they know first hand how the forces of socialism can destroy all that is important in man. Why this skill developed solely in Peart and not Lifeson or Lee is due to Peart's journey to England when he was eighteen. It was there that he first came to truly understand how important Objectivism is, utilizing the excessive governmental involvement in daily life prevalent in England as a catalyst for his enlightenment.


There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade?

There is trouble in the Forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the Maples scream 'Oppression!'
And the Oaks, just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
'These oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light.'
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Ax,
And saw.
Rush - The Trees
Indeed, we are kept down with hatchet, ax and saw. This parable clearly underscores how the small people continue to force those graced with power and influence to bend to the will of those who are not worthy, resorting to violence rather than reason to have their way. The music of Rush asks: Which are you? A noble oak, rising towards the sun, or a weak maple, whining about the unfairness of it all rather than bettering yourself through improved photosynthesis and nutrient gathering? The implied inferiority of the maple, national tree of Canada, is clearly intentional and represents Peart's dissatisfaction his socialist homeland.


You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still haven't made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.
Rush - Free Will
Lyrics such as these are the basic essence of Objectivism. Free will. The power to change your destiny should you so choose. Total rejection of the idea that some people are born into situations from which they cannot rise out of without help. Another line from the above song goes, "Blame is better to give than receive". No greater sarcastic truism has ever been uttered. The simple truth of the world is that absolutely each and every person who finds themselves in difficult circumstances is there as a result of their own actions. This is what Objectivism teaches us, that those who have problems deserve no help because it is all their fault anyway.

Of course those who are the little people among us are not content taking responsibility for their own failings, choosing instead to blame their problems on "phantom fears" like global economics, abuse of power, and the inherent inequality of capitalism due to its rewarding of greed above all else. This would be fine if there weren't so many of them, but that is not the case. Those who are accepting of their inherent inferiority outnumber us in such great numbers that they actually are able to influence world events. As a result, our politicians are forced to enact destructive socialist programs like retirement benefits, public transportation and health care for the indigent.

However, we now have hope. In addition to Ayn Rand's scholarly and deeply thoughtful writings, we also have a means of making the truth understood to the masses. The music of Rush can be a highly effective tool for spreading the word of Rand. By combining high level philosophy with the power of primitive rhythm and repetitious melody, we finally have an effective tool for convincing the less perceptive among us that our cause is right and that getting in our way is extremely counterproductive. By further simplifying our message we will finally succeed in teaching the meek that the earth is not theirs to inherit, but should either be seized with force or surrendered to those who are stronger.

[smaweet]

lol, I only post Ayn Rand because it usually does a good job at freaking out and shutting up libbies.

[shiva2999]

Ain't no Alan Colmes libbys here.

You gotta bring your A game.

[nehemiah]

http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.8.22.0219.37804.html

Understanding Ayn Rand through the music of Rush:rofl:

classic.

[nehemiah]

Luis Bunuel's "Un Chien Andalou". Compatriot and collaborator of Salvador Dali.

This section of the film involved an eyeball being cut with a straight razor.

Bunuel showed people how they could be convinced they'd seen something they hadn't actually seen.what did you think of Viridiana?

[smaweet]

Rush sucks hardcore. How could a male band survive with such a girly voice?


I think their 11 minute drum solo makes up for that though.

[shiva2999]

http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.8.22.0219.37804.html

The simple truth of the world is that absolutely each and every person who finds themselves in difficult circumstances is there as a result of their own actions. This is what Objectivism teaches us, that those who have problems deserve no help because it is all their fault anyway.

http://www.jpfo.org/9.jpg

[shiva2999]

what did you think of Viridiana?

Haven't seen it. My bad.

[smaweet]

http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.8.22.0219.37804.html

The simple truth of the world is that absolutely each and every person who finds themselves in difficult circumstances is there as a result of their own actions. This is what Objectivism teaches us, that those who have problems deserve no help because it is all their fault anyway.

http://www.jpfo.org/9.jpg


To argue as an objectivist, yes that is true. They were a weak race who couldn't gain enough political power to prevent that event from happening. Their theory is sound.

Their practice is scary and will get me killed. :cautious:

[shiva2999]

So, shall I take it you're not a Christian sma?

[smaweet]

Christianity is so first millennia.

I was born Roman Catholic if that counts for anything anymore!

[shiva2999]

Christianity is so first millennia.

I was born Roman Catholic if that counts for anything anymore!

You didn't answer my question.

Are you aware The Church of Rome is mandkind's longest running right wing conspiracy?

[smaweet]

You didn't answer my question.

Are you aware The Church of Rome is mandkind's longest running right wing conspiracy?


What are trying to get at? Do I have a moral compass largely based upon Christian ideals and values? Sure. Would my beliefs let me preach in your church? No, not at all.

[shiva2999]

Do I have a moral compass largely based upon Christian ideals and values? Sure.

You do? Are they based on the dogma of the church as an institution or on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth himself?

Like the parable of the good Samaritan for example?

[smaweet]

You do? Are they based on the dogma of the church as an institution or on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth himself?

Like the parable of the good Samaritan for example?


Treat others as you wish and realisticly expect to be treated yourself.

^^ That works well enough for me at this time in life.


You may want to take note that I was born on the day Tiffany's "Could've Been" was at the top of the charts.

[gilchristfan]

Treat others as you wish and realisticly expect to be treated yourself.


Somehow, I don't think it would have had the same effect if He said it that way.

On the other hand, maybe He wouldn't have gotten himself killed if he were more mainstream.

Careful, Sweet, Shiva's getting ready to bring out the Supply Side Jesus cartoons.

[smaweet]

Haha I've seen those. They're actually a way to get back on topic.

Leprosy is a disease most humans today are immune to. Natural selection at work. Do you believe that it would have been possible, within our century, to find a cure for lepers, without the advancement of free-enterprise in the medicine industry in America during the 20th century?

[shiva2999]

Somehow, I don't think it would have had the same effect if He said it that way.

On the other hand, maybe He wouldn't have gotten himself killed if he were more mainstream.

I don't think Jesus ever quite got the concept of "enlightened self-interest".

If he'd embraced the profit motive, the money changers and the Pharisees, Jesus could have had a pretty sweet life.

[shiva2999]

Haha I've seen those. They're actually a way to get back on topic.

Leprosy is a disease most humans today are immune to. Natural selection at work. Do you believe that it would have been possible, within our century, to find a cure for lepers, without the advancement of free-enterprise in the medicine industry in America during the 20th century?

I hate to burst your bubble but Canada also has a free enterprise medicine industry. So does Britain and France and Germany etc etc...

[pope zimli]

It sounds like you made a statement without facts to back it up, and it sounds as if the teacher gave anecdotal evidence which she thought "refuted" you statement. There are sources on the internet and (god forbid!) the library that would support your position, but you will have to come up with them. Whining about "liberal" and "conservative" gets us no where. Isn't the issue about the quality and availability of health care here? The passing on of health care costs to American business (and government employers) for some employed people drives up costs (for cars for instance and resulting in American manufacturers not being competitive) and taxes (City of Buffalo, NYS an example where health costs are too much of an expense.) Also the fact that hospitals and other medical facilities "eat" or pass on the cost of health care for the insured must be factored in. Complex issue and its easy to get into name calling instead of addressing the problems. I'd do some research and go right back at the teacher on the point with data to support my assertion.

[TRIPLE P]

It sounds like you made a statement without facts to back it up, and it sounds as if the teacher gave anecdotal evidence which she thought "refuted" you statement. There are sources on the internet and (god forbid!) the library that would support your position, but you will have to come up with them. Whining about "liberal" and "conservative" gets us no where. Isn't the issue about the quality and availability of health care here? The passing on of health care costs to American business (and government employers) for some employed people drives up costs (for cars for instance and resulting in American manufacturers not being competitive) and taxes (City of Buffalo, NYS an example where health costs are too much of an expense.) Also the fact that hospitals and other medical facilities "eat" or pass on the cost of health care for the insured must be factored in. Complex issue and its easy to get into name calling instead of addressing the problems. I'd do some research and go right back at the teacher on the point with data to support my assertion.


Welcome to the Range!:duel:

[nehemiah]

who "cured" leprosy? an american?

please enlighten us.

[smaweet]

Eh, the first succesful drug came from a pre-war Germany back in the early 40's, but whatever. Same economic principles.

[nehemiah]

Eh, the first succesful drug came from a pre-war Germany back in the early 40's, but whatever. Same economic principles.the economic principles of prewar germany? :rofl: oy vey.

how about the irish drug they currently use?

[gilchristfan]

Haha I've seen those. They're actually a way to get back on topic.

Leprosy is a disease most humans today are immune to. Natural selection at work. Do you believe that it would have been possible, within our century, to find a cure for lepers, without the advancement of free-enterprise in the medicine industry in America during the 20th century?

Oh, no doubt. A huge number of medical breakthroughs in the research field have come through NIH scientists, or scientists through NIH grants.

Read The $800 million Pill sometime. Good read.

[gilchristfan]

I don't think Jesus ever quite got the concept of "enlightened self-interest".

If he'd embraced the profit motive, the money changers and the Pharisees, Jesus could have had a pretty sweet life.

Oh, the endorsement possibilities are endless. Feeding 4,000 people on a single Filet-0-Fish sandwich, turning ordinary tap water into Mad-Dog 20/20, curing the crippled beggar with Vioxx...

[sukie]

Wow this thread is all over the place except healthcare.

[shiva2999]

We've proved our case for single payer healthcare a long, long time ago.

If you guys want to continue to screw poor people and support exhorbitant overheads in the service of Social Darwinism that's up to you.

[uppy]

We've proved our case for single payer healthcare a long, long time ago.



If so,why do people from Canada (that can) come to the good old USA for
healthcare ?

[shiva2999]

If so,why do people from Canada (that can) come to the good old USA for
healthcare ?

Cuz they have warts on their johnsons and the US leads the world in johnson wart removal technology.

[uppy]

Cuz they have warts on their johnsons and the US leads the world in johnson wart removal technology.


:rofl:

You can't answer the question

[shiva2999]

:rofl:

You can't answer the question

I already answered your silly question.

Why do Americans leave the US and go to other countries for treatment?

Why do Americans leave the US and come to Canada for treatment?

[sukie]

I already answered your silly question.

Why do Americans leave the US and go to other countries for treatment?

Why do Americans leave the US and come to Canada for treatment?
Other countries?... Because they offer last ditch sheep serum injections...

Canada? doesn't happen.

[uppy]

Other countries?... Because they offer last ditch sheep serum injections...

Canada? doesn't happen.

He can't answer the question......it must suck to be a socalist

[shiva2999]

Other countries?... Because they offer last ditch sheep serum injections...

Canada? doesn't happen.

Dear me...

http://www.shouldice.com/

World leader sukie...

[shiva2999]

Other countries?... Because they offer last ditch sheep serum injections...

Ignorance is bliss, huh boys?

http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/dpa/monpaper/97-no34/botha.htm

[sukie]

Now you're a sheep serum advocate?... makes sense.

[markythebill]

Can someone please enlighten me on this subject? I didn't know enough to debate my professor today in class, so I wish to know more. I brought up the subject that it could take 6 months in England to get in to see a doctor and my professor pretty much shot me down and said no that it wasn't true. Her words were something along the lines of, "Nope. Sorry. I know people in Europe and Canada and none of them have any problem getting in to see a doctor. Sorry. Not true." Just then this girl in front of me spoke up and said that she lived in England before, and it took her about 6 months to get in and have her migraines checked out. It was great being able to prove my bitch of a professor wrong on that point, but I wish I was able to say more.

Your professor was correct. It doesn't take months at all to see a doctor in England. All you do is ring your local doctor's surgery and make an appointment, for the next day or whenever you want. What can take more time here with the NHS (National Health Service) is certain operations. They have waiting lists for certain things (like hip replacements for old people) and they have to wait until they can be fit in. A lot of people have complained over the years about how long they have had to wait for an op.

Part of the problem is that so many of the doctors and surgeons now work in private healthcare services, like BUPA, where they obviously get more money because the patients pay a fee every month to be a member, so they can also afford better equipment etc.

The NHS gets a hard time by the press over here. Years ago there were often stories about how some hospitals ran out of room, so beds would be placed in corridors. But really, when you consider that under our law, every man, woman and child, no matter how poor they might be (they could be rich or homeless), are entitled to free health care, I think they do a good job. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure national health care was invented here, so they've done it for a long, long time, and I think it's good that they haven't abolished it purely to make more money.

Blair and his cronies made a big thing about how they were going to improve the health service, but I have no idea whether thay have stuck to their word. All I know is my grandma needed to go to hospital a few years ago and she was taken in the very same day and was in a clean, well equiped room and was cared for to the very end, despite being a very working class woman who have virtually no money in the bank.

On the subject of doctors, many students are put off going to med school because of the debt they get into whilst studying. But I read the other day that a lot of German doctors are going to relocate over here because the average wage for a doc in Germany is something like 60, 000 a year, whereas over here it is 80, 000 (for a National Health doctor), so they are going to be moving so they can get more cash.