Healthcare Summarized: We're Screwed.

[anEinherjer]

Good op-ed from the Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/25/AR2006012501782.html

Americans want more health care for less money, and when they don't get it, they indict drug companies, insurers, trial lawyers and bureaucrats. Although these familiar scapegoats may not be blameless, the real problem is us. We demand the impossible. The changes we truly need are political. We need to reconnect people with the public consequences of their private acts. We should curb the subsidization of private insurance. Medicare recipients, especially wealthier ones, should pay more of their bills. But these changes won't happen because people don't want to see the costs. We don't have the health care system we need, but we do have the one we deserve.

The nutshell for those who don't want to read it - Americans want health care to do 3 things:
1. Cover everybody regardless of income.
2. Be free to pick whatever doctor you want, and the Doc to be free to prescribe whatever he thinks is best.
3. Control costs.

Pick any two. You can't do all three. I would guess your choice of 2 would be a pretty fair indicator of your political affiliation. :)

[sukie]

I can only pick #2.

[sukie]

No wait... not allowed to EVER pick kevorkian... So I guess my answer is a blank.

[RabidBillsFan]

Good op-ed from the Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/25/AR2006012501782.html



The nutshell for those who don't want to read it - Americans want health care to do 3 things:
1. Cover everybody regardless of income.
2. Be free to pick whatever doctor you want, and the Doc to be free to prescribe whatever he thinks is best.
3. Control costs.

Pick any two. You can't do all three. I would guess your choice of 2 would be a pretty fair indicator of your political affiliation. :)

I want #1 and #3... so many other countries have a much better system. NOBODY really looks at how much more profit drug companies and insurers make than your 'trial lawyers'. Are you kidding me??? These bozos aren't suffering under the mighty strain of R&D costs and fraud... they are actually LIVING HIGH ON THE HOG off of sick people- it's not just trial lawyers!

[sukie]

Of course you want one and three. Don't worry the Mythical Crisis will be drummed up againin a couple of years at which time the debate will be hot and heavy.

[RabidBillsFan]

Of course you want one and three. Don't worry the Mythical Crisis will be drummed up againin a couple of years at which time the debate will be hot and heavy.

It is a matter of how you view the world, I guess. My view is that people who are sick and cannot afford basic health care deserve more than to be forgotten about, names eventually in an obituary that never appears in the newspaper. I have a conscience about this sort of thing... it BOTHERS me. That is MY view.

[sukie]

Free indigent healthcare in Florida all over the place. County hospitals... Works.

[RabidBillsFan]

Free indigent healthcare in Florida all over the place. County hospitals... Works.

It doesn't work for elderly people who can't get out of their home and/or don't have family to care for them. Who do you think pays for that care? Isn't that socialism, though?

[TRIPLE P]

Don't worry the Mythical Crisis will be drummed up againin a couple of years .


Terrorism?

[sukie]

Actually any crisis in an election year is blown up. Mostly by the Democrats.
The GOP does use fear very succesfully however.

[TRIPLE P]

Actually any crisis in an election year is blown up. Mostly by the Democrats.
The GOP does use fear very succesfully however.

Thats what makes there supporters so pathetic..... they succumb to said fear....

[35Pete]

Two and three. Not everyone deserves to be covered. They just haven't earned it.

[sukie]

I don't pick three only because that is HMO-like rationing of care. ( I'm referring to the broad stroke terminology in #3)

[anEinherjer]

Free indigent healthcare in Florida all over the place. County hospitals... Works.

Really? And how's Florida's healthcare budget these days? I know for a Nehe FACT that it's killing Erie County.

[sukie]

You live in a welfare state. besides... Who cares about the cost, the patient gets free healthcare. Isn't that what is wanted for them?

[nehemiah]

Two and three. Not everyone deserves to be covered. They just haven't earned it.If you’re wondering why
All the love that you long for eludes you
And people are rude and cruel to you
I’ll tell you why
I’ll tell you why
I’ll tell you why
I’ll tell you why

You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
You just haven’t earned it, son
You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
You must suffer and cry for a longer time
You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
And I’m telling you now ...

If you’re wondering why
When all I wanted from life was to be famous
I have tried for so long, it’s all gone wrong
I’ll tell you why
I’ll tell you why
I’ll tell you why
I’ll tell you why
But you wouldn’t believe me

You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
You just haven’t earned it, son
You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
You must suffer and cry for a longer time
You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
And I’m telling you now ...
I’ll tell you why
I’ll tell you why

Today I am remembering the time
When they pulled me back
And held me down
And looked me in the eyes and said
You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
You just haven’t earned it, my son
You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
You must stay on your own for slightly longer
You just haven’t earned it yet baby
And I’m telling you now ...

You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
Oh ...
You just haven’t earned it yet, baby
Oh ...
Oh

[nehemiah]

i'll take all three. it is a fallacious assumption that we cannot achieve all three.

you can't prove me wrong. :p

[sukie]

Nehe...Don't have to since there is no viable plan to do it fiscally and with quality. It can be done but won't be.

[nehemiah]

Nehe...Don't have to since there is no viable plan to do it fiscally and with quality. It can be done but won't be.only because of people like you, pete, and anEin...

there is no logical reason why it can't be done.

NOT ONE.

FACT.

[RabidBillsFan]

only because of people like you, pete, and anEin...

there is no logical reason why it can't be done.

NOT ONE.

FACT.

There is a logical reason.

Some people just don't care.

[nehemiah]

There is a logical reason.

Some people just don't care.bingo.

but "caring" is not logic.

[uppy]

I have free health care, and all able body young people can have free health
care for life....all you have to do is join the Military and serve honorably.

All good things in life can be had,you just have to earn it.

[RabidBillsFan]

bingo.

but "caring" is not logic.

I know it's not... that is why people all over the world suffer.

And yet, we're damaging the 'bottom line'.

[sukie]

only because of people like you, pete, and anEin...

there is no logical reason why it can't be done.

NOT ONE.

FACT.
MALPRACTICE INSURANCE

[RabidBillsFan]

I have free health care, and all able body young people can have free health
care for life....all you have to do is join the Military and serve honorably.

All good things in life can be had,you just have to earn it.

Some people aren't able to meet the standards due to their circumstances- birth defects, disease, body composition NOT due to abuse, etc... Also, little babies and children don't fall in that category. What about them?

I find no problem with giving more of my money if it means people are better taken care of. It is the Christian thing to do.

[RabidBillsFan]

MALPRACTICE INSURANCE

How much was the profit for medical insurers last year?

ANYONE?

ANYONE?

That's right, living high off the hog. Thanks to poor saps who get sick. :rolleyes:

[sukie]

yet many doctors are languishing especially in OB-GYN

[RabidBillsFan]

The answer? On the average, about $400 MILLION dollars a year.

That is PROFIT, AFTER fraud.

It should not be allowed for medical insurers to make such outrageous profits off of a PUBLIC NEED. That is criminal in my eyes.

[uppy]

Some people aren't able to meet the standards due to their circumstances- birth defects, disease, body composition NOT due to abuse, etc... Also, little babies and children don't fall in that category. What about them?

I find no problem with giving more of my money if it means people are better taken care of. It is the Christian thing to do.

Children,babies and people with birth defects are covered already, atleast
in Mass and I would bet in most states.The old are covered by the feds after
the age of 62.The groop that lacks coverage are the 18-30 year olds.All thay
need to do is......

WWW.Army.com

[RabidBillsFan]

Children,babies and people with birth defects are covered already, atleast
in Mass and I would bet in most states.The old are covered by the feds after
the age of 62.The groop that lacks coverage are the 18-30 year olds.All thay
need to do is......

WWW.Army.com

I totally disagree!!! That is preposterous.

What every able-bodied person needs to do is visit:

www.navy.mil

:gold:

[uppy]

I totally disagree!!! That is preposterous.

What every able-bodied person needs to do is visit:

www.navy.mil

:gold:


lol...the navy works too

[RabidBillsFan]

lol...the navy works too

I had to get that in there.. I could not resist :)

[sukie]

The answer? On the average, about $400 MILLION dollars a year.

That is PROFIT, AFTER fraud.

It should not be allowed for medical insurers to make such outrageous profits off of a PUBLIC NEED. That is criminal in my eyes.
So public utility companies are also criminal? They provide a need.

[RabidBillsFan]

So public utility companies are also criminal? They provide a need.

I wouldn't use criminal, but it is wrong. It is far worse to be deprived of medical care than electricity!

[35Pete]

I wouldn't use criminal, but it is wrong. It is far worse to be deprived of medical care than electricity!
But medical care is not a right. Neither is electricity.

[sukie]

So corporations are not allowed to profit... Okay. Why don't we all work for free and have everything provided for us. No monetary system required.

[sukie]

Pete... you bastard, i was waiting for a leftie to use the "r" word.

[RabidBillsFan]

So corporations are not allowed to profit... Okay. Why don't we all work for free and have everything provided for us. No monetary system required.

You can't complain about trial lawyers making a profit and allow medical insurers the same luxury. That is hypocrisy. Either allow it all, or clamp down.

[RabidBillsFan]

But medical care is not a right. Neither is electricity.

OK then, it must be OK to charge $2,000 to transport sick and wounded people from a disaster site, when it only costs me $20 in gas.

By your definition, it is profit and justified because it is not a right.

To me, it is criminal.

[sukie]

That's what i was saying about your profit post.

[nehemiah]

we live in the 1st world. electricity and healthcare are both rights.

why don't you move to a 3rd world country if you disagree?

[sukie]

Funny... There's no mention of that in the constitution.

[35Pete]

we live in the 1st world. electricity and healthcare are both rights.

why don't you move to a 3rd world country if you disagree?

No they are not.

FACT!

Let me know where in the constitutution they are?

Healthcare is a service.
Electricity is a commodity.

[nehemiah]

when the constitution was written - we were the third world.

now we got a leg up, it's time to consolidate our 1st world status.

DO IT NOW!

[35Pete]

when the constitution was written - we were the third world.

now we got a leg up, it's time to consolidate our 1st world status.

DO IT NOW!
But you still cannot violate the constitution just because you think "it is a good idea". That's the problem, and an ethical one, with you liberals.

[sukie]

No they can change it when it suits them Pete... FACT.

[nehemiah]

But you still cannot violate the constitution just because you think "it is a good idea". That's the problem, and an ethical one, with you liberals.it's become clear with your silence re: domestic spying that you don't care about the constitution.

who are you to lecture anyone about strict interpretations of the constitution?

[nehemiah]

No they can change it when it suits them Pete... FACT.so says the guy *** raping the fourth amendment.

[sukie]

Pete... they interpret as need be as well... FACTORAMA.

[anEinherjer]

only because of people like you, pete, and anEin...

there is no logical reason why it can't be done.

NOT ONE.

FACT.

You didn't read the article, did you. "fact" joking aside, if the users of healthcare (that would be us) don't care about the cost, we'll blow it out by requesting all kinds of shit that probably doesn't have to be done. Insurers will insure all kinds of stuff because they know companies will pay premiums. Doctors will charge all kinds of stuff because they know insurance will cover it. And so on. It's very much like software: You have have quality, you can have it quick, you can have it cheap: pick any two.

Regarding profits: How much do they make in profit off a single case? Per dollar spent? $400 million might not be all that unreasonable given the vast volume of work they perform. Yahoo's biz site reports the industry averages 7.1%. That's not unreasonable at all.

Regarding rights: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Electricity and healthcare are "rights"? Well I'll be. I wonder what Locke thinks of that?

[RabidBillsFan]

Regarding profits: How much do they make in profit off a single case? Per dollar spent? $400 million might not be all that unreasonable given the vast volume of work they perform. Yahoo's biz site reports the industry averages 7.1%. That's not unreasonable at all.

I'm not talking percentages- I am talking DOLLARS. Percentages can be manipulated- for instance:

I have $75,000 worth of expenses by having 2 ambulances available for medical transport.

My total income is $80,325.

Therefore, I made 7.1% profit last year, or $5,325.

That is 7.1% profit, and yet $5,325 sounds awfully puny to $400 million.

That profit number DOES NOT INCLUDE all of the salaries, bonuses, etc that are PROVIDED by those hard working insurance people. A for effort :)

To have made $400 million a year off of many people who can't afford their medical bills is just sick.

[sukie]

Rabid your logic proves anEin's point... Take that 80,000 and extrapolate up to the size of a healthcare network and that is still puny.

[RabidBillsFan]

Rabid your logic proves anEin's point... Take that 80,000 and extrapolate up to the size of a healthcare network and that is still puny.

A lot of that waste is done already, right in the GS sector! I recently strolled into a mart designed for government employees, and they charge on average 3 times the normal price for needed things.

Why not just charge more for unnecessary surgeries, etc, to make up for the cost of vital surgeries? This makes sense!

[nehemiah]

You didn't read the article, did you. "fact" joking aside, if the users of healthcare (that would be us) don't care about the cost, we'll blow it out by requesting all kinds of shit that probably doesn't have to be done. Insurers will insure all kinds of stuff because they know companies will pay premiums. Doctors will charge all kinds of stuff because they know insurance will cover it. And so on. It's very much like software: You have have quality, you can have it quick, you can have it cheap: pick any two.

Regarding profits: How much do they make in profit off a single case? Per dollar spent? $400 million might not be all that unreasonable given the vast volume of work they perform. Yahoo's biz site reports the industry averages 7.1%. That's not unreasonable at all.

Electricity and healthcare are "rights"? Well I'll be. I wonder what Locke thinks of that?i know the logic, anEin.

the simple fact of the matter is that socializing medicine will not make costs go up. you cannot PROVE otherwise. you can intuit all you want... but you cannot prove it.

what's up with the Locke thing?

[sukie]

Nehe, you CANNOT prove costs will not go up

[anEinherjer]

i know the logic, anEin.

the simple fact of the matter is that socializing medicine will not make costs go up. you cannot PROVE otherwise. you can intuit all you want... but you cannot prove it.

As with all things not science, there is of course no proof. However, there is the lesson of history: Every time things are socialized they either cost way too much (because there is no incentive to NOT spend) or choices are artificially limited (for example: waiting lines in Canada).

If you know the logic why are you arguing with me. :D

what's up with the Locke thing?

Natural rights of man and all that - you claimed electricity and healthcare were "rights" somehow.

[anEinherjer]

I'm not talking percentages- I am talking DOLLARS. Percentages can be manipulated- for instance:

I have $75,000 worth of expenses by having 2 ambulances available for medical transport.

My total income is $80,325.

Therefore, I made 7.1% profit last year, or $5,325.

That is 7.1% profit, and yet $5,325 sounds awfully puny to $400 million.

That profit number DOES NOT INCLUDE all of the salaries, bonuses, etc that are PROVIDED by those hard working insurance people. A for effort :)

To have made $400 million a year off of many people who can't afford their medical bills is just sick.

ACTUAL DOLLARS doesn't make sense in this context. Sorry. Let me extend your example. How much should the ambulance folks make in profit? Are you going to say "Thou shalt earn no more than $100 of profit"?

Okay, that's great, but that means if I run 200,000 ambulance runs over the course of a year, I will make a whole 5 cents per run!

So, all through the year, I can only charge 5 cents over cost for my service. Now.... what happens if costs suddenly go up? Down? What if gas prices fluctuate? What would the paperwork cost be if I had to calculate my cost of every run?

Profit margin IS what matters. Period. Total dollar amounts only indicate that a particular company did a LOT of business over the course of a year. Saying "400 million! That's too high!" without any sense of how much actually business they're doing is silly.

Now, that said, if you want to suggest that some/all healthcare providers should be run as NON-PROFIT companies... then at least you might have an argument.

[sukie]

except there are huge costs involved with non profits. andprofits veilledas salaries... without cntrol that is.

[г]

SUNDAY, SUNDAY!

Locke vs Hobbes, steel cage match...

[shiva2999]

We get 1, 2 and 3 in Canada.

Great healthcare for everyone, doctor of your choice and it's paid for out of taxes.

Sweet.

Too bad you guys can't figure it out.

[г]

Yep, I can splatter myself against a guardrail going 205 mph on a 'Busa and not have to pay a cent for the iron lung, face transplant, etc.

[35Pete]

it's become clear with your silence re: domestic spying that you don't care about the constitution.

who are you to lecture anyone about strict interpretations of the constitution?
You know that I am outspoken against domestic spying. You know that. No inconsistencies here.

[gilchristfan]

Now, that said, if you want to suggest that some/all healthcare providers should be run as NON-PROFIT companies... then at least you might have an argument.

Well, this guy might have something to say about that. (and he doesn't look happy with your suggestion)

http://re2.mm-b1.yimg.com/image/753940193

[sukie]

Look, this is my bread and butter, I will debate anyone on why governmental healthcare would not work in the US. Ever.

[uppy]

We get 1, 2 and 3 in Canada.

Great healthcare for everyone, doctor of your choice and it's paid for out of taxes.

Sweet.

Too bad you guys can't figure it out.

Why do the well-off from canada come to Boston or other US citys when thay
need health care ?

[nehemiah]

Look, this is my bread and butter, I will debate anyone on why governmental healthcare would not work in the US. Ever.then why don't you do it.

start a serious thread about it.

let's rumble.

[shiva2999]

Why do the well-off from canada come to Boston or other US citys when thay
need health care ?

Uh, because they want some good or service above and beyond what's been deemed necessary by highly qualified professionals?

[35Pete]

Uh, because they want some good or service above and beyond what's been deemed necessary by highly qualified professionals?
And what is wrong with that?

[sukie]

Its an HMO on a grand scale, Pete.

[TRIPLE P]

So its our responsibility as a superpower to free people from dictators..... and send aid to third world countries....but its not our responsibility as the most power nation in the world to keep each and every one of our citizens healthy?

Its confusing to me that other nations need our help but our own people....****'em

Its funny how some around here use good healthcare as some sort of status symbol.....like having good healthcare somehow proves or validates success..... its really pathetic.

75in TV's and Mercedes....brag about'em....healthcare...come'on.....

[uppy]

Uh, because they want some good or service above and beyond what's been deemed necessary by highly qualified professionals?

I don't understand,are you saying if you have a wart on your johnson
the highly qualified professionals can deem it unnecessary to remove it ?
Thus your only option is to come to the good old USA to get your putter
fixed ?

[sukie]

Yup.

[anEinherjer]

So its our responsibility as a superpower to free people from dictators..... and send aid to third world countries....but its not our responsibility as the most power nation in the world to keep each and every one of our citizens healthy?

So I'll put you down for #1 (help everybody). Which do you prefer then, #2 (you get to choose exactly what you want) or #3 (we can actually afford to pay for it)?

[shiva2999]

Yup.

Nope.

Is removing warts from johnsons a big money maker down there?

You've got the latest technology?

Damn! I guess that DOES justify 45 million people without healthcare and hideously expensive overhead.

Woo hoo! The US rocks medicine's world in the field of johnson wart removal!

USA! USA! USA!

[TRIPLE P]

3

I've said before, and I'll say it again.... make it an option for med students to get free medical education in exchange for a few years of public service at a reasonable rate...

Obviously it would be more complicated, but it would be somewhat like the military.....

Free undergrad, med school or both (obviously you'ed have to keep up good grades and continue to make progress) and when you get out 2-4 years of service in the field you chose in the Federal Healthcare system....

[TRIPLE P]

Nope.

Is removing warts from johnsons a big money maker down there?

You've got the latest technology?

Damn! I guess that DOES justify 45 million people without healthcare and hideously expensive overhead.

Woo hoo! The US rocks medicine's world in the field of johnson wart removal!

USA! USA! USA!

Who wants to get rid of Johnson warts...?... i wish I had some... I could give them to all the sluts I bang as sort of a tag or a calling card....

They'ed be showering at the gym after a workout (I like girls who are fit) and they'ed check out each others vag's and they could have a little conversation about how good I was....since they both had the mark of WXP

[shiva2999]

Who wants to get rid of Johnson warts...?... i wish I had some... I could give them to all the sluts I bang as sort of a tag or a calling card....

They'ed be showering at the gym after a workout (I like girls who are fit) and they'ed check out each others vag's and they could have a little conversation about how good I was....since they both had the mark of WXP

If you had a bunch of warts on your johnson you'd be a human french tickler.

[TRIPLE P]

If you had a bunch of warts on your johnson you'd be a human french tickler.


Exactly... warts on your hog get a bad rap....

You' ever heard of people getting ball bearings implanted in thier units?..... its kinda the natural version... with HILARIOUS consequences

[uppy]

Nope.

Is removing warts from johnsons a big money maker down there?

You've got the latest technology?

Damn! I guess that DOES justify 45 million people without healthcare and hideously expensive overhead.

Woo hoo! The US rocks medicine's world in the field of johnson wart removal!

USA! USA! USA!

nice tap dancing job

[coastal]

But medical care is not a right. Neither is electricity.
This is my favorite post in what is a pathetic thread.

:gold:

[rocky]

Actually any crisis in an election year is blown up. Mostly by the Democrats.
The GOP does use fear very succesfully however.


Flag Burning---Gay marrige and other non issues.:duel:

[Canisius85]

Two and three. Not everyone deserves to be covered. They just haven't earned it.

:rofl:

One uninsured citizen is just too many in a civilized country.

Then again...

[35Pete]

:rofl:

One uninsured citizen is just too many in a civilized country.

Then again...

But where in the constitution is healtcare guaranteed? Ohh, I see. You are one of those people that says "screw the constitution" because you feel that it is a "really good idea"

[TRIPLE P]

I'm one of those people that says "Screw the Constitution" because its outdated.....

[shiva2999]

I'm one of those people that says "Screw the Constitution" because its outdated.....

You don't need to say "screw the constitution". It's not the Constitution's fault they couldn't dumb it down enough that every right wing moron could understand it.

The frickin guy who wrote it, Thomas Jefferson, wrote reams about how the constitution should be treated by future generations.

I've posted DOZENS of Jefferson quotes about the subject and the right refuses to address it and just keep mumbling their idiotic mantra, "strict constructionist, strict constructionist...".

They don't give a shit about the constitution, they're just using it as a club to bash people with.

They could care less about the spirit of the thing or the spirit of the age that created it.

[TRIPLE P]

You don't need to say "screw the constitution". It's not the Constitution's fault they couldn't dumb it down enough that every right wing moron could understand it.

The frickin guy who wrote it, Thomas Jefferson, wrote reams about how the constitution should be treated by future generations.

I've posted DOZENS of Jefferson quotes about the subject and the right refuses to address it and just keep mumbling their idiotic mantra, "strict constructionist, strict constructionist...".

They don't give a shit about the constitution, they're just using it as a club to bash people with.

They could care less about the spirit of the thing or the spirit of the age that created it.


My point is, if it can't adapt to the time, change for the good of the nation, then its useless.....

It can do those things, but its not going to without the help of some great leaders....which don't exist anymore.

People don't want to have the power to lead, the want to lead to have power..... its so sad.

[35Pete]

My point is, if it can't adapt to the time, change for the good of the nation, then its useless.....

It can do those things, but its not going to without the help of some great leaders....which don't exist anymore.

People don't want to have the power to lead, the want to lead to have power..... its so sad.
My point is that if you believe that the constitution says whatever you think it says at the moment then it really has no power at all.

Don't like it? AMEND it.

[gilchristfan]

But where in the constitution is healtcare guaranteed? Ohh, I see. You are one of those people that says "screw the constitution" because you feel that it is a "really good idea"

Would national healthcare violate the constitution?

[anEinherjer]

Depends on what you mean by "national healthcare". If you mean "force me and my family into a national program from which all healthcare will flow, whether I like it or not", then yeah, I'd submit it's unconstitutional.

WXP: your "change for the good of the nation" is the crux of the matter, isn't it? You think one thing is "for the good of the nation" and I think something completely different. Who's right? The tyranny of the majority?

[Canisius85]

Read it again Pete...I believe it falls under ensuring domestic tranquility....but don't quote me.

[smaweet]

Would national healthcare violate the constitution?


Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare. That phrase pretty much sums up any socialist plan.

[sukie]

Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare. That phrase pretty much sums up any socialist plan.
That General Welfare term is a slippery slope in it's broadness and it's varied interpretations. I believe it is referring to the "nation".

[35Pete]

Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare. That phrase pretty much sums up any socialist plan.
Bullshit

[sukie]

It's the welfare of the country not poor sick people.

[smaweet]

That General Welfare term is a slippery slope in it's broadness and it's varied interpretations. I believe it is referring to the "nation".


It doesn't matter what you believe. All that matters is how the court rules it.

Its on that very phrase that the difference between the Republican and Democratic party are differed. They both have a different idea of it, or at least, thats how its supposed to be.

Most of our bereaucracy is held up by this phrase. Don't chew it out.

[sukie]

The courts have never ruled on that phrase.that's not where welfare programs derived.

[smaweet]

Then where?

[uppy]

Read it again Pete...I believe it falls under ensuring domestic tranquility....but don't quote me.


Interesting point