Gambling is coming to downtown Buffalo

[Billsman]

Senecas undeterred as ground is broken for downtown casino
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20051209/1009490.asp

The Seneca Nation of Indians is moving ahead to develop the Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino on vacant land in downtown Buffalo's Cobblestone District. During a groundbreaking ceremony Thursday, Seneca leaders announced they will build their main gambling complex on a nine-acre site along Michigan Avenue, the area they previously said would be a parking lot.

While the Senecas have not set an exact time frame for opening their Buffalo casino, leaders said they want to begin construction this spring and will aim for a debut on New Year's Eve 2006.
They also will continue efforts to acquire the nearby Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad terminal to expand their entertainment operations, as well as more land in the neighborhood for additional parking.
"The nine acres is the main casino site; the DL&W would be an extension of that presence," said Rajat Shah, Seneca Gaming Corp.'s senior vice president for corporate development.

The Senecas are looking at the second floor of the rail facility to develop limited gambling, retail, entertainment and a restaurant, according to Shah.

The Senecas are making no secret of their desire to control more Cobblestone neighborhood property beyond the nine acres that became sovereign territory Dec. 2. Several sources said the Seneca Nation is seeking property for parking adjacent to the casino site.
Unlike the Seneca casino deal in Niagara Falls, where parcels of land were identified in negotiations between the state and the tribe for its gambling operation, there is no specified limit on the amount of land that the tribe can acquire in Buffalo.

However, the Senecas' casino compact with the State of New York says the land the tribe obtains in Buffalo must be limited for "gaming and commercial activities traditionally associated with the operation or conduct of a casino facility."

The compact does not spell out what those activities are. And given the different things the Senecas have sold at their casino in Niagara Falls - from stereos to cigarettes - a Seneca casino in downtown Buffalo could end up being another location for smokers to buy cigarettes tax-free.
At Thursday's groundbreaking, the Senecas also announced they will solicit designs from architects across the country to create a "signature destination."

"We want it to have a distinctive flair," said John Pasqualoni, president and chief executive officer of Seneca Gaming. "We want a world-class facility that fits in with the HSBC Arena and the proposed Bass Pro store."
Mayor Anthony M. Masiello, long a backer of a Buffalo casino, heralded the casino development as a "critical component" of downtown Buffalo's rebirth.

The 100,000-square-foot casino complex will be built to accommodate 2,200 slot machines, 50 gaming tables, a buffet and a fine-dining restaurant. A 2,500-vehicle parking garage and operations facilities are planned for the nine-acre site bounded by Michigan and South Park avenues, and Fulton and Marvin streets.

Leaders and dozens of other members of the Seneca Nation gathered for Thursday's groundbreaking, which served as a homecoming of sorts. Several times during the ceremony, speakers sprinkled their remarks with the Senecas' native language.

Seneca President Barry E. Snyder Sr. recalled that 167 years ago, the Senecas were driven off the Buffalo Creek lands. "This is a truly wonderful homecoming for the Seneca people, and we are here forever," he said.
While several Cobblestone District residents also were on hand, some holding up "Welcome Senecas" signs, they were vastly outnumbered by casino protesters. The chorus included those who oppose gambling, as well as preservationists who want the historic H-O Oats grain elevator on the building site to be saved.

The protesters, many of them holding anti-casino signs, chanted "Shame on You" and "More harm than good" as dignitaries made their congratulatory speeches.

Many were members of Citizens Against Casino Gambling in Erie County, which has announced that it will file lawsuits in federal and state courts to stop the casino. "It's a very sad day for Buffalo," said Bill Durfee, a member of the group. "The notion that the casino is going to be an engine for development is ludicrous. Study after study has shown casinos are a net drain on the economy. Casinos don't rejuvenate neighborhoods or cities."

Tim Tielman of Campaign for Greater Buffalo expressed his dismay as the wrecking ball collided with the 1912 H-O Oats mill for the first time, barely disturbing it.

"It's a disgrace that our elected leadership is standing here cheering on the destruction of a historic structure," Tielman said. "Development can co-exist with historic buildings, but no one is giving it a try here."
Afterward, Snyder said that there would be no final decision on what to do with the H-O silos until an assessment is done.

Snyder said he had no intention of meeting with preservationists. "We're more concerned about the Seneca Nation; that's my position," he said.
Pressed on why he would not meet with them, he answered, "I don't have to."

Mayor-elect Byron W. Brown was more optimistic about working with the Senecas to make sure serious consideration is given to preservation issues.

"The Senecas have not made up their minds yet about how to deal with the H-O Oats elevator, and I would urge them to explore whether it can be incorporated in their plans if that is reasonable and appropriate," Brown said.

Tom Precious of The News Albany Bureau contributed to this report.
e-mail: slinstedt@buffnews.com

[Billsman]

I hate to see the H-O Oats building go down. http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/h-o-oats.jpg

The 130 foot elevator of the H.O. Oats company located on Perry Street. The H.O. company was formed in New York in 1893 and later moved its facilities to Buffalo in 1895 and manufactured two different oat cereals. During the 1950's, the plant was producing over 6,000 cases of cereal a day. The cereal plant closed in 1975 and the brick manufacturing building burned in 1987 yet still stands to this day.

[TRIPLE P]

SWEET!!!!....

[Billsman]

They serve as a monument to a bygone era; monolithic structures standing on water's edge waiting for lake and canal freighters that will no longer come. Today all except a few of these enormous buildings are abandoned and no longer serve the industry for which they were designed. As they stand in their decrepit state they remain a mystery to those who view them. Few venture close to investigate their design and operation. At one time in Buffalo's history, the grain elevators dominated the skyline of the waterfront and served as a symbol of Buffalo's industrial importance as the largest supplier of grain in the world.
I n t h e B e g i n n i n g
Prior to the year 1827 there was no grain handled in Buffalo. Surplus grain grown in the American Midwest reached markets in the East only after transportation over long and often impossible routes. Grain from the midwest was shipped on flatboards down the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers to New Orleans where it was then loaded onto sailing vessels that carried it to its eventual destination in the East or in Europe. Oftentimes the grain was carried by wagon on rough roads that passed through the rugged terrain of the Appalachian Mountain chain. In short, getting the grain which grew abundantly in the midwest to markets in the east was nearly impossible. More often than not when the grain reached its destination, it had spoiled and was unusable.
Although the vessels of that day were small, the unloading of grain as a cargo usually consumed many days. Storms often forced complete stoppages of shipping over water, and dirt roads became unpassable in wet, muddy conditions. Costly delays and harbor congestions were becoming increasingly intolerable as the volume of grain needed in the eastern part of the United States increased as the population continued to rise.
<CENTER><TABLE width=440 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/buffalo-harbor.gif
A view of the Buffalo Harbor from Harper's Weekly, 1877.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
Since Buffalo was situated in the middle of the land/lake transportation route, grain would arrive in the city and then be transferred either to waiting ships or wagons for continued shipping. When the Erie Canal opened in 1825, a new revolution in transportation had suddenly developed. The Canal was the first efficient transportation system to breach the Appalachians. Now midwestern grain could be shipped by lake boats to Buffalo where the Canal was waiting to take the grain further to New York.
This new revolution soon made the freight charges drop from $100 to $10 a ton for grain shipment. The only major problem with using the Erie Canal was the fact that this man-made waterway was narrow and not very deep. Even the smallest of lake boats were too large for use on the canal, and canal boats were too small for the lakes. Thus, grain had to be unloaded from the lake boats then loaded onto canal boats at Buffalo. Handling the grain by hand was slow and arduous work that caused delays and congestion of people and boats in Buffalo Harbor.
In 1830, workers handled 146,000 bushels of grain at Buffalo. Little more than a decade later, the total handled was ten times as great. At least 500 workers, most of them Irish immigrants, were required to unload or load this volume of grain by hand. The work was hard and dangerous. Grain dust was explosive and was suffocating to those men who were surrounded by it day in and day out. Notwithstanding, the entire process was still slow.
J o s e p h D a r t
During the first five years between 1835 and 1841, when grain was literally unloaded on the backs on men, Buffalo's grain receipts rose from 112,000 to over 2 million bushels. This tremendous increase in grain traffic saw the need for a faster and more efficient method of loading and unloading grain from the ships that arrived in Buffalo. In 1842 Joseph Dart, a Main Street retail merchant, constructed what came to be known as the first grain elevator at the foot of Commercial Street on the Buffalo Creek.
<TABLE align=left border=0 hspace="8" vspace="8"><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/dart.jpg
J o s e p h D a r t</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Dart's invention consisted of a wooden structure that served as storage bins for the grain. Loading the grain into this structure was a steam-driven belt which had buckets attached to it. As the belt with the buckets was lowered into the hold of a ship, the buckets would scoop up the grain and hoist it up into the structure where it was dropped into tall bins. This is where the term "elevator" originated because this is exactly what the process did. It elevated the grain from the ship and stored it in bins until it was lowered for transshipment or for milling purposes.

Dart's first elevator had a capacity of 55,000 bushels of grain. Three years later, this was doubled. Even though this process was indeed labor saving and cost effective, it was not without its critics. Perhaps the most popular legend of the grain elevator involves Joseph Dart and a competitor of his by the name of Mahlon King. King was a forwarding merchant and took every chance to scoff at Dart and his grain elevator. King was quoted as saying, "Dart, I feel sorry for you. I have been through that mill and it just won't do. Remember what I say; Irish backs are the cheapest elevators ever built." Soon after Dart's elevator was built and in operation, King returned with his head hung low saying, "Dart, I find I did not know it all."
<TABLE width=270 align=left border=0 hspace="10"><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/dart-elevator-litho.jpg
This lithograph shows the Dart Elevator, located at the foot of Commercial Street. (BECHS)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>As Dart's grain elevator came into its own, it was allowing ships to be unloaded at the rate of over 1,000 bushels per hour. It soon became common practice to have a ship arrive at port, unload, then leave the very same day. This was unheard of before Dart's elevator. Soon Dart's efforts paid off by the building of ten other grain elevators in and around the Buffalo Harbor. All totaled had a storing capacity of more than one and a half million bushels of grain. Buffalo had become the world's largest grain port.

Surprisingly, Joseph Dart never claimed to be the inventor of the grain elevator -- just the one who perfected it. In a speech delivered to the Buffalo Historical Society in 1865, Dart paid tribute to Oliver Evans as the person who first worked out the principles for handling grain mechanically. During the 1780's, "Evans developed a simple machine that consisted of a series of buckets attached to a leather or canvas and rubber belt revolving upon pulleys." It was Evan's desire to create some sort of Conveyor that could "remove flour or grain in a horizontal direction to the point where the elevator could receive it. Evan's process was ingenious in that the flour was kept in motion and exposed to the air until thoroughly dry and ready for packing."
<TABLE width=220 align=left border=0 hspace="10"><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/dart-flow-chart.gif
This flow chart shows the operation of Dart's elevator. The same operating principle was true for most other elevators. (BECHS)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>While basically the same principle as Dart's elevator, the Evans invention was used primarily for flour mills. Of his elevator, Dart stated "I believe it was the first steam transfer and storage elevator in the world. It was the first successful application of the valuable inventions of Oliver Evans to the commercial purpose for which it is now extensively employed."
In his speech to the Buffalo Historical Society, Dart described the operation of his elevator. "I began with buckets 28 inches apart, holding about two quarts and raised without difficulty a thousand bushels an hour." He then placed the buckets closer together and was then able to achieve 1800 or 2000 bushels an hour. "In some or the elevators now in use, buckets hold eight quarts and are only one foot apart and will raise 6,000 to 7,000 bushels and hour, weighing it correctly."

E l e v a t o r C h a r a c t e r i s t i c s
Dart discovered that grain elevators made ideal storage facilities for grain. In each of the elevator's bins the grain was kept dry, cool and free from pests such as rats, birds and worms which could wipe out the entire load. The grain elevator also made it possible to weigh the grain as it was being stored. It was also possible to take samples of the grain to check for purity and contaminants.
By 1863, Buffalo had 27 grain elevators in operation with a total capacity of 5,835,00 bushels and a transfer capacity of 2,700,000 bushels per hour. One major characteristic of each of the earliest grain elevators was that they were all made of wood; a plentiful building material in the Buffalo area. These elevators were all located on or near the water and served only lake and canal boats.
<TABLE width=285 align=left border=0 hspace="10"><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/watson-elevator.jpg
The Watson Elevator. Notice the distinctive cupola situated at the top of the structure; a feature noticeable on many grain elevators. (BECHS)</TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The elevators also developed interesting architectural highlights such as a cupola on the roof. The Watson Elevator was unique in that it had a slip directly underneath it allowing canal boats to dock under the bins and have the grain dropped directly into the boat's hold using only the force of gravity.

<TABLE cellSpacing=8 width=450 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/erie-burn.jpg</TD><TD align=left>The dangers of an elevator made of wood are demonstrated in this photo from 1913 as the Erie Elevator, on Ganson Street, is completely engulfed in flames. The Erie exploded and burned in 1883 killing five men. It was rebuilt in 1913 only to be destroyed by fire later in the year.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Fires have always been a great threat to the grain industry and certainly caused the demise of Buffalo early wooden elevators. Since grain dust is a highly explosive substance, a careless spark would cause an explosion that would not only destroy the elevator, but neighboring property as well. Some early grain elevators had no tops on their bins, only a roof to keep out the rain. Explosions and fires easily spread from one elevator to the next since many of them were closely grouped together.

<TABLE width=260 align=left border=0 hspace="10"><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/great-northern.jpg
The Great Northern elevator, built on the City Ship Canal the Great Northern railroad's owner, James J. Hill (BECHS/ARCADIA)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>In 1897, the Great Northern and Electric elevators were constructed as an answer to the explosion/fire threat. Both of these elevators were constructed of steel and brick and as a testament to its sturdiness, the Great Northern elevator still stands only now no longer in use. As the 20th century dawned in Buffalo, new safety standards appeared in the construction of grain elevators. The wide-spread use of concrete and steel was accompanied by revolutionary ventilation and dust-control measure until the industry was no longer victim to fires so prevalent in Joseph Dart's day.

W i n t e r S h u t d o w n
Buffalo, due to its climate, had a definite navigational season. When the winter months approached, both lake and canal boats hurried to their destinations to unload their cargo of grain or else face the risk of getting stranded at a port that was not home. Buffalo was often the lay-over port for many boats that could not risk making a journey with the rapid onslaught of winter. Nothing could have been worse for a ship's captain than to be on route when ice closed in around the ship, stranding the vessel until the spring thaw. Even worse was the fact that the Erie Canal was nearly drained in the winter time. To many canal boat captains it was a fate worse than death to be caught on the canal in the winter.
<TABLE width=268 align=left border=0 hspace="10"><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/ships-in-winter.jpg
These lake freighters are waiting out the Buffalo winter. Loaded with grain, the freighters will sit until late winter or early spring before they can be unloaded.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>When snow and ice put an end to the navigation season, Buffalo's grain elevators were usually full to capacity. Therefore, lake boats making their last run to Buffalo in the fall kept their grain on board until elevator space became available. Known as the "winter fleet," these boats made Buffalo Harbor a busy place even in the winter and spring as they were shuttled around for unloading.

T h e 2 0 t h C e n t u r y
The 20th Century brought many changes to the grain industry in Buffalo with an abundant arrival of flour mills. Also, the animal feed industry became a large part of the overall grain trade. Inexpensive electrical power, made available from Niagara Falls, was a major reason for this expansion. The fact that electrical power was relatively inexpensive permitted electrification of the grain elevators, which had formerly operated with steam power.
<CENTER><TABLE width=400 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/george-urban.jpg</TD></TR><TR><TD align=left>Located at 200 Urban St. on the city's East Side was the George Urban Milling Co., one of the first elevators/mills to utilize the "new" electric power. Urban Milling was also the first to introduce steel rollers for the milling of flour. Previously, this process was done using burr millstones. (BECHS)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
The newer source of power encouraged grain processing. In addition to flour mills and animal feed industries, cereal mills and oil seed crushers became significant contributors to Buffalo's reputation as a grain processing center. By the 1930's, Buffalo stood as first city in the United States in flour milling and in the production of animal feeds and grain. The first elevator to use this "new" electric power was the George Urban flour mill in 1895.
<TABLE width=312 align=left border=0 hspace="10"><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/electric-elevator.jpg
The Electric Elevator, built in 1897, existed until 1967 when it closed its doors. However, in 1968, an abundant crop of midwestern corn and soybeans sent 14 millions bushels of surplus to Buffalo which gave the Electric Elevator a temporary reprieve. (WNYHI)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Then in 1897, the Electric and Great Northern elevators were built with the sole intent to use electric power. In this way, the newer, electrified elevators were able to eliminate steam boilers, engines, chimneys, and the necessity of bringing fuel to the elevator for burning. As you can see, electrification greatly reduced the risk of fires also.

Perhaps the biggest change in Buffalo's grain industry was the emergence of another industry that was making its presence not only in Buffalo but in the rest of the country as well. During the early part of the the 19th Century grain trade, most of the grain arrived in Buffalo from the lower midwestern states. However, after 1850, a new contraption called a railroad was beginning to bring grain into the city from other grain growing areas of the country. Initially, grain shipments by rail were limited due to the fact that the Erie Canal had precedent over all freight shipments to and from Buffalo. But in the early years of the 20th Century, more and more grain began arriving in Buffalo from the northern prairie states and the Canadian provinces across the border from them.
The railroad proved itself faster and more reliable than the lakes and canals; it didn't freeze in the winter and was more direct. Railroad tracks eventually were built right up to the elevators and as the years of the 20th Century increased, shipping grain by water was almost non-existent.
D e c l i n e o f t h e G r a i n T r a d e
Buffalo reached its peak as a grain center in the 1920s and again during the years of World War 2. However, since that time the decline has been steady and severe. In 1932, the Welland Canal opened in Welland, Ontario and this spelled the beginning of the end for Buffalo grain industry. The canal was able to accommodate full-sized grain boats coming from the upper Great Lakes ports thus bypassing Buffalo as these boats delivered their cargo to Prescott, Ontario or Oswego, New York, for transshipment. This act eliminated any shipments of Canadian grain that may have been destined for Buffalo for transshipment.
<TABLE width=257 align=left border=0 hspace="10"><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/grain/history/bennett-elevator.jpg
After the Dart elevator was destroyed by fire, the Bennett elevator was built on its site. Located at the foot of Commercial Street, the elevator was the watchdog of the Buffalo Harbor. Also seen are the D.L.& W. coal docks. (BECHS)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The final blow was dealt in 1959 with the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway. This waterway gave moderate size ocean vessels passage into the interior of North America by way of the Great Lakes. This cut Buffalo off completely in the shipping chain. There was no longer a need to dock at Buffalo to load or unload grain. While the transshipment business was coming to an end, Buffalo's animal feed industry was likewise declining. Between 1955 and 1970, decentralization brought about a virtual halt to any animal feed ingredients being shipped to the large feed mills in the city. Instead, smaller mills were being constructed within trucking distance of the regions in which cattle, hogs, and horses consumed the animal feed. With the feed industry gone, Buffalo suffered still another drastic decline.
The end of transshipment and the closing of the animal feed industry meant much more than just the decline of the grain trade in Buffalo. it also meant a serious loss of jobs. At one time thousands of men and women were employed one way or another with the grain industry. Now their jobs were gone.

[Billsman]

I think downtown needs this more than one can imagine. This is something that can help bring Buffalo back.

[TRIPLE P]

I think downtown needs this more than one can imagine. This is something that can help bring Buffalo back.


That, and my usual trip to the motherland includes a football game, a hockey game, and some gambleing...and I'd much rather gamble in buffalo than in niagara falls......

[Billsman]

We have numerous casinos around Phoenix and two in Scottsdale. I've been to them many of times, had a blast each time I went.

I think the downtown casino(s) will help revitalize the lake front and downtown area. (Edited because Pete couldn't understand what I wrote). ;)

[35Pete]

We have numerous casinos around Phoenix and two in Scottsdale. I've been to them many of times, had a blast each time I went. I think it'll help revitalize the lake front and downtown area.
There's water in Arizona? :hmm:

[Billsman]

You dope, it'll help the water front area in Buffalo.

[Billsman]

and yes, there is water in AZ, I used some in the shower this morning.

[Billsman]

City casino a giant step backwards

Too bad we can't say, "Thanks, but no thanks."
It's too bad we can't re-gift this one, politely decline, bring it back for a full refund.
Too bad we don't have any say in it. And never did.
The Seneca Nation broke ground Thursday morning for a casino near the downtown waterfront. When Native American casinos years ago got the go-ahead from Albany, Tony Masiello, Dennis Gorski and others jumped up and said "We want one." They said it will bring jobs, bring people, and local gamblers will drop their money here instead of in Canada.
It's too bad the cheerleaders were blinded by the pompoms. It's too bad they didn't understand that a gift horse can be a Trojan horse. A wrecking ball Thursday morning hit the side of a 1912 brick building standing in the casino's path. Masiello called it "progress." Mayor-elect Byron Brown - one of, revealingly, just a handful of politicians who showed up - said "there's a new day dawning."
If taking more money out of our pockets is a new day, I'm rolling over and pulling the covers over my head.
A casino is a good deal for the Senecas. They keep upwards of 75 cents of every dollar of profit. A casino is a good deal for the state. Albany eventually gets 25 percent of the slot machine take, for doing nothing. Buffalo gets the short end. We get just a quarter of the state's share, about $7 million a year, while local folks drop the dollars and pay the social costs.
I know we need jobs, and a thousand decent-paying ones are water to the lips of a dying economy. The problem, say folks who study casino gambling, is every job created at a casino comes at the cost of other jobs in the community.
"There's probably a lost job for each gained job," said professor Bill Thompson of the University of Nevada, "when you consider jobs lost at other businesses because money will be spent at the casino instead of there."
It might work if most of the money dropped at the casino - about $150 million a year - came out of tourists' pockets. They come here, get their wallets lightened, and we all get a cut.
But Buffalo is no tourist mecca. Thompson says that four out of five gamblers at a Buffalo casino will live within an hour's drive. Most of the $150 million annual casino profit will come from local households.
"That $150 million [amounts to] a tax on local people, because it's mainly people who live within 50 miles of Buffalo who will be gambling there," said Thompson. "The Senecas will ship $30 million of it to the state, the state gives $7 million back to Buffalo. But the [original] $150 million is coming out of local pockets."
A $7 million payback and a job lost for every one gained don't equal an asset. That's why Joel Rose and a band of casino foes stood near the groundbreaking and chanted, "More harm than good."
"Everybody moaned about the extra one percent sales tax, which equaled about $130 million," said Rose. "This [casino] takes more than that out of the economy."
Economic boost? Casinos are one-stop shops. Most gamblers don't detour to a museum or take in a show at Shea's. A row of sorry storefronts still stands across from the Seneca Niagara Casino in Niagara Falls, three years after it opened.
"It looks like a drain, unless the Senecas commit to spending money in the area or develop businesses locally," said Thompson. "But tribes don't generally do that."
Given the local cost, the state ought to give us all of its cut. Brown said he hasn't talked to anybody in Albany about it. Albany lawmakers say getting more money for Buffalo is "a heavy lift." In other words, don't hold your breath.
Something is definitely happening. But taking a step back isn't what I'd call "progress."

[ckg68]

Guys...sorry,but I can't back yet another casino in the area. Odds are,the majority of people each of the casinos in the area come from the immediate area(say,within a 25-50 mile radius). And with all the ways to gamble-bingo,lotteries,etc.-you can only draw so much blood from a stone before it runs dry. (Before I continue,let it be said that I have gone into all of the casinos on a regular basis and am a member of their players clubs,as it were. I don't have a problem with casinos,per se...just the explosion of them.)

Quite honestly,we're about casino-ed and racino-ed out here.

Look at the roster:

-Casino Niagara,the old guard(opened 1996)turned into a somewhat younger,hipper version.

-Niagara Fallsview Casino Resort,its more stately spinoff.

-Fort Erie Racetrack Slots

-Seneca Niagara Casino

-Fairgrounds Gaming & Raceway

And,further afield:

-Seneca Allegany Casino

-Batavia Downs Gaming

And exactly why do we NEED another place to spend our money in the fruitless hope that we can beat the house?

Question: Since the HO Oats grain elevator is on the Seneca's property,has it ever occured to them that instead of knocking it down-as they've proposed-they incorporate it into the Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino project? Say,for instance,as a giant beacon? Or maybe a hotel? (Don't laugh-go to Akron,Ohio for an example of how an old grain elevator got remodeled into a hotel.)

One more thing: When HSBC Arena was being built,they said it would spark development in the immediate area. Nearly 10 years later,the sum total: one bar and the HSBC Atrium. That's REEEAL development.

[Billsman]

The thing is, nothing else is going in downtown in the near future, is there?

[rob on the job]

Buffalonians prepare for legalized gambling:

http://www.unc.edu/~ageller/hist22web/assets/street1.jpg

[ckg68]

Let's see....Blue Cross' HQ is going up in downtown,right next to Channel 7's HQ. That should be in place by '07.

[Billsman]

Too bad Buffalo cant turn the corner with the water front. Places like Seattle make theirs rock.

[ckg68]

When you have the NFTA owning some valuable property and doing jacksquat with it for decades,that's part of the problem.

[Losman4life7]

well... the HSBC arena isnt in the best part of town... Not a lot of land for other businesses to come in when all thats around there is highways and land owned by NFTA

[eSabre]

With the casino so close to the Arena, I can't help but think there will be some more restaurants and bars popping up in that area. I always thought they needed to develop the area around the Arena better, and this will be great.

Anyone complaining about them getting rid of the old buildings because of their "historical value" should just shut the hell up. It's called progress. Deal with it, and don't stop it.

[Billsman]

Phoenix is doing just that, making old buildings into condos or tearing them down. Theyre also bringing in a ASU Downtown campus to an area that was once dying. When the Diamondbacks opened up their stadium, right next to the Suns arena a ton of places suddenly opened up.

[sukie]

WTF is bad about casinos since the economy in the downtown area blows chunks anyway?

[Billsman]

Sukie, nothing that I can see. It's not like it's in anyones backyard.

[sukie]

I remember seeing this politician a couple of years ago claiming that a casino would harm Buffalo's economy and I was yelling at the TV... WHAT ECONOMY!!!

[Billsman]

The same Gambling that hurt Las Vegas' economy? Yes, I know we're comparing apple to oranges but like I said, in Arizona the econmy wasnt effected and I believe the state now has extra revenue that it didnt before.

[sukie]

There are jobs involved with casinos, Correct?

[Billsman]

The casinos brought in a lot of jobs, alot.

[Billsman]

...

[mark3274]

the thing is why leave it to the indians only? If NY was smart they would have 10 mega casinos ie foxwoods size and larger in niagra falls. Niagra falls makes is already a tourist area so why not. granted casino jobs are not the highest paying jobs out there.

[Billsman]

NY isnt smart enough.

[mark3274]

if the senacas were smart they would build something that looks like this......


http://www.foxwoods.com/

[THATHURMANATOR]

I remember seeing this politician a couple of years ago claiming that a casino would harm Buffalo's economy and I was yelling at the TV... WHAT ECONOMY!!!
You are a regular negative Nelly aren't you?

[ckg68]

The casinos brought in a lot of jobs, alot.

But the pay isn't great. I can recall applying for a couple of jobs with Seneca Niagara about a year and a half ago(one of them being for traffic control-which I had brought some experience with,having worked events for HSBC Arena for 7 years). The pay for that position was in the neighborhood of $7-8/hr. I'm not sure how much the other position paid,but it was probably in the same area. (You could only apply for 2 positions each time you went there,and the applications book couldn't leave the room.)

And I can tell you this: The dealers for table games get paid squat-a good chunk of their salary comes from tips(which is pooled and split equally). So remember...even if you're doing crappy at a table game,tip the dealer. Good etiquette..and you're helping to pay part of their salary.

[BillyT92679]

the thing is why leave it to the indians only? If NY was smart they would have 10 mega casinos ie foxwoods size and larger in niagra falls. Niagra falls makes is already a tourist area so why not. granted casino jobs are not the highest paying jobs out there.
Well, they have to leave it to the Indians only, unless the state constitution was amended. Casinos are illegal in NYS.

I grew up down the street from Turning Stone and it was a help to the area.