Fainting in Children

[Stealth01]

OK, so we're getting ready to leave this morning. My 12-year-old son is standing in the living room. He stretches, takes two steps, and promptly blacks out. Hits the table on the way down and is out cold for about 5 seconds. Opens his eyes and is OK (small bump on chin from table).

We come to find out that this has been happening a couple of times a month for several months now. He also says his legs fall asleep easily, and that he cannot replicate the problem intentionally. It ALWAYS happens when he stretches after sitting. He usually has some memory loss of the 2-3 seconds prior to blacking out, and often doesn't know how long he's been out. My stepson has witnessed one such episode, and they SEEM to last about 5 seconds.

Our physician (a stupid military PA, not even a doctor) didn't see him, but said on the phone that he's probably dehydrated. He doesn't LOOK dehydrated to me, and I'm not sure that's the issue. Google search reveals that this is fairly common, but nothing I read mentions legs falling asleep easily.

Anyone have ideas?

(Note: neither son thought this important enough to tell us aobut...ugh)

[rob on the job]

Man, Chris, this sounds serious.

I'd get to a doctor -- probably a neurologist -- ASAP.

[Woody]

Sounds like something circulatory. I'm no expert but I know that if you stand up real quick and pass out you need to get something fixed (i.e. blood pressure). :niterider

[nehemiah]

never passed out from it, but happens to me all the time in the morning (especially on really humid days). it's probably a mixture of dehydration and a normal (first thing in the morning) lack of circulation. get him to do some stuff that gets his circulation moving in the morning. shake his arms and legs out or something. and tell him to sit down before he stretches.

[Stealth01]

It doesn't just happen in the morning, but ALWAYS when he stretches. He has a Dr. appt next week, and I will be there to force a few tests they won't want to do.

Scared the **** out of me. I thought he tripped at first, but the way he went down--ragdoll--ruled that out. Yelled for my wife to call an ambulance (she dialed 311 by mistake...very helpful), but he woke up in 5 seconds or so.

Andrew has scared me that way three times. Once he fell in a window well. I didn't know what happened, I just heard my other son screaming as Andrew fell in the door, struggling for air and spitting up mucous. Wife was dialing 911 then, too. And the other was when he was 8 months old and fell backwards down 4 steps. Screamed and cried. Took him to ER, and they ruled out head injury. Said he had a stiff neck. Next morning he had a golf-ball sized lump on his collar bone, which had snapped in half. :(

WIth four kids, I've had more "Oh ******!" moments than I care to think about.

[TRIPLE P]

So its when he gets up from a sitting position...

I'm no Dr. but that and circulatory thing could be something related to blood sugar levels maybe.

[coastal]

Man, Chris, this sounds serious.

I'd get to a doctor -- probably a neurologist -- ASAP.

Yep.

[coastal]

Sounds like something circulatory. I'm no expert but I know that if you stand up real quick and pass out you need to get something fixed (i.e. blood pressure). :niterider

Your talking about orthostatic hypotension. I have no idea about the incidence of it in kids.

[Stealth01]

According to WebMD and some other sites, this is actually fairly common in kids and teens, though the reasons for it range from nothing to serious conditions.

[rob on the job]

I'd freak out if my daughter kept collapsing. I just can't imagine keeping calm about it.

[Stealth01]

Trust me, I was pretty freaked. He fell awkwardly, and as I eased him to his back, my heart was going a mile a minute.

[markythebill]

When i was a kid I was on a health kick during the school holidays and I wasn't eating very much, just drank protein shakes at night. When I stood up too quickly after sitting down or lying down for long time I would sometimes black out, or just get dizzy with stars in front of my eyes. I guess it was down to my lack of nutrition, or maybe I was a bit dehydrated as well.

[Stealth01]

Yeah, from what I've read, this could be dehydration, low blood sugar, heart condition, neuro condition, or just part of growing up.

Another meidcal crap shoot!

[35Pete]

He might be suffering from orthostatic hypotension. This is a rapid and sudden drop in blood pressure resulting from standing up too quickly. I'd take him first to a general practicioner and let him refer you to the proper specialist.

[Mouldsie]

That happened to my sister a couple times.



Most Americans are dehydrated and don't even know it. I hope that's all it is.
Tell him if his urine is yellow he needs to drink water.
I piss clear throughout the day because I drink a lot of fluids :D

[35Pete]

Your talking about orthostatic hypotension. I have no idea about the incidence of it in kids.
I didn't see your post before I posted mine but I think you may be right on the $$. Funny, in the ER I never saw this in a child. Only in adults.

[Stealth01]

Turns out that I was hypoglycemic for awhile as a kid. I have no recollection of it whatsoever, but apparently I had some similar incidents at school and my mom had to make special breakfast drinks for me for about 6 months.

Weird. But something to ask the Dr. about.

Thanks for the inputs, guys!

[Norwoodsrevenge]

I'm not a doctor (I just play one on the range) but you should inquire about an Electroencephologram (EEG.)

[coastal]

I'm not a doctor (I just play one on the range) but you should inquire about an Electroencephologram (EEG.)

Doesn't sound like seizure activity, but I could be wrong. I find it interesting that it happens when he is stretching. Stretching can be like a valsalva maneuver which raises the internal pressure of the body cavities.

Definately one of the things to pass along to the doctor.

[Stealth01]

Now we have an ER tech (brother in law) who thinks we need to take him in right away and keep him out of physical activities until seen. Says we need to get CAT Scans, XRays, blood work...the whole deal.

Well, we will be trying to get him in with the Dr. tomorrow, so I will be sure to update everyone if we learn something.

[twosheds]

I had this a lot as a kid and as a youth, too. When I streched (as in reaching for someting that was too high to reach normally), stood up or ran up stairs too fast, I blacked out. It wasn't as bad as with your kid, though, I slowly went down and couldn't see for a few seconds. I hope all is well.

[Stealth01]

He has an appointment in about an hour, so I will let everyone know what happens.

[rob on the job]

Good luck, Chris.

[Woody]

I had it as a kid.. but I was a fatass so it made sense. :niterider

Your talking about orthostatic hypotension. I have no idea about the incidence of it in kids.

[Stealth01]

OK, well THIS doctor took things a LOT more seriously than the original guy did.

After a full physical exam, he determined the following:

1. The fainting only happens after stretching, like a yawn-style stretch.

2. Only happens with his arms over his head.

3. Does not occur with physical activity, such as exercise or rough play.

4. He does not APPEAR to be hypoglycemic.

5. EKG revealed that heart activity is perfectly normal.

6. Orthostatic BP was all normal.

7. He was able to nearly replicate the problem by having Andrew stretch while raising his hands over his head. Got lightheaded and saw spots.

So he ordered blood work (done today) to double-check the hypo-glycemia. But his working theory right now is that the vessels running from Andrew's heart to his head and arms--especially on the left side--may be malformed or in a bad position, so when he raises his arms over his head, he temporarily disrupts the flow of blood to his brain. This either happens during the stretch, with the brain flow being cut off then, or when he relaxes (more likely), as the blood flow back to the arm causes a loss of flow to the brain and making him black out. This seems more likely, as Andrew is often able to take 3-4 steps after stretching before he goes nighty-night.

If that does turn out to be the problem, he said they might be in a bit of a quandary about what to do. He MIGHT grow out of it, but they MIGHT need to do bypass surgery to correct it.

Anyway, it's still early. We have an ultrasound on his neck and a Magnetic Resonance Angiogram to do in order to trace the blood flow in his upper body. So we should know more at the end of the month.

Sigh.

Parenting is the most stressful job in the world sometimes.

[rob on the job]

Glad you went to the doc and got what seems like a real diagnosis, Chris.

Hope everything goes well.

[35Pete]

Glad to hear that you got a handle on it and that it isn't life threatening. :thumbup:

On a less serious note.

Now this has happened to me before when I was a teen. But I think it had something to do with sucking the laughing gas out of whipped cream cans at the grocery store. I hit the ground hard once and split my head open.

[coastal]

and pete doesn't think I'm a doctor.

[coastal]

ps parenting is hard sometimes but the most rewarding thing I have ever done with my life.

[Mouldsie]

Don't let your kids listen to that hip hop music

[Stealth01]

Blood test back. Results: normal. No hypoglycemia.

[PUCKER]

DANG! :( I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers,Stealth! Please continue to update us!

[Stealth01]

Update time. Andrew has had the MRA and an ultrasound. Official results tomorrow afternoon, but the ultrasound did reveal a vascular "anamoly" in the left side of his upper body. Apparently, the ultrasound measures the speed of the blood through the arteries. Right side was normal, starting at 120 and moving down in increments of 20-30 along the 6-7 points they did. They started high and moved down his neck. The left side, however, started at 101 and moved down similarly until the fifth point, where it jumped to 130. Behind that (lower) it appeared to be normal.

The techs apaprently got excited and rushed him to radiology where they did the test again, with the same results. We don't know what kind of irrgularity this reveals, but we THINK it's one of several possibilities. Either there is a blockage higher up in his neck, a twist or something, or perhaps (as the Dr. suspects) the arteries cross or have a third one crossing them and restricting blood flow. The MRA should reveal which is true.

So tomorrow afternoon I will get the call from my wife. We expect an immediate referral to a vascular surgeon, of which there are NONE in Co Springs and no pediatric ones in the whole state. So this could take awhile. :(

[nickypap52]

Whatever it is man I wish him and yoru family the best.

I piss clear throughout the day because I drink a lot of fluids :D

That because of football?

[rob on the job]

A prayer for your boy and your family, Chris.

[Stealth01]

Results indicated that blockage or restriction in the arteries appeared unlikely. We are now referred to a cardiac specialist, and Andrew is on a high-salt diet with beta blockers to prevent fainting. :(

[35Pete]

What is he taking, Inderal, Lopressor, Corgard, Tenormin?

[Mouldsie]

Whatever it is man I wish him and yoru family the best.



That because of football?
general well being

[coastal]

Your family is in my thoughts Chris.

[PUCKER]

My thoughts and prayers are still with you and your family,Stealth.

[35Pete]

I tried to join the military when I was younger but they booted me because I was on Inderal for 5 years.

[The REAL Bling]

general well being


Sorry to hijack your thread for a second, but this is for the guy talking about football towards MR.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=190632


I know it's a bodybuilding site, but this is very important. You need water bad.













BACK TO THIS THREAD:
I'm sorry about your son. I hope he does well. About 2 years ago (when I was 13) I had problems because I lacked salt in my body. It's really good that you saw a doctor. I wish him the best.

[coastal]

Sorry to hijack your thread for a second, but this is for the guy talking about football towards MR.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=190632
You need water bad.

I couldn't agree more about this. Water is too often ignored as you just pointed out. Water is a huge key to health for me.

[Stealth01]

Sorry for the long absence, guys, but here's an update:

We saw the pediatric cardiologist who believes there is a breakdown in Andrew's reflex system that causes his heart to slow WAY down or perhaps stop for a couple beats when he stretches. He is in beta blockers, which have kept him from passing out all but once (he's gotten really close a few times), so the doc put him on a 24-hour EKG. That came back normal, which is good. It ruled out a problem between the top and bottom of the heart, which would have required a pacemaker. Now he wears an event recorder all the time. When he has "an episode," he pushes record and it goes back 30 seconds and records that plus 60 second more. Kind of like TiVo for the heart. We hold the thing up to the phone and it faxes results through a 1-800 # to the doc's office. Five "near misses" so far, so the Dr told us to take him off the beta blockers and make him pass out. That should happen today.

If it is the reflex thing, he thinks he will grow out of it. If not...we're back to step one again.

And he is on Inderal LA.

[Stealth01]

Well, to dredge this old thread up:

Andrew sees some specialists for tests tomorrow. He's getting a tilt table test, a cardio doppler scan, and one other test, all designed to see WHY he is fainting. Thing is -- he isn't any more. He's still getting light-headed when he stretches, but hasn't passed out, even after he stopped taking the beta blockers.

So they THINK it was a thing called Stretch Syncope, which is rare enough that they want him to be a guinea pig. They want to study him. LOL..

Well, at least it's over, anyway.

[twosheds]

So they THINK it was a thing called Stretch Syncope, which is rare enough that they want him to be a guinea pig. They want to study him. LOL..

Well, if they pay the bills. Glad to hear he's doing better. :)

[Stealth01]

Their tests today (Sub cranial doppler and tilt table) confirmed that he has some sort of abnormality in the blood flow at the base of his skull. Basically, when he turned his head hard left, the blood flow to his brain on that side STOPPED. COLD.

The other side compensated (the body IS amazing), but he still got lightheaded. They did get him to pass out on the tilt table, too, so in addition to the very RARE stretch syncope, he is susceptible to regular syncope (fainting) as well.

There isn't much treatment. He'll grow out of the latter and compensate for the former, but he was QUITE the talk of the pediatric cardiology department. And is now sleeping in his bed, worn out from the tests.