The Results are in... "Flutie's a LOSER!"

My Flutie thread for the week; :D

I wasn't gonna post this week, but I got agitated at the seeming defense of a QB (Flutie) who's on another team and the stated dislike of "hating" him, if in fact that's what it is, when right here in Buffalo the same people defending Flutie (mostly, not all) from seeming "vindictive" posts, don't seem to care an iota that RJ is hated twice as much as anyone who hates Flutie! Actually, as I see it, it's those who defend the midget, even though frankly I don't think his play is defensible, that HATE RJ, OUR OWN QB here in Buffalo and are ready to harm the team if that's what it means simply in exchange of "getting rid of Rob!!" That has me a little miffed. It wasn't the result of one single post, but an aggregation of posts that have caused me to introspect and ask "why the correlation."

Anyway, moving on from the reason for this week's post, and they'll stop completely once I see the hatred for RJ subside! NOT THE CRITICISM, just the HATRED!!!

Flutie ONLY LOSES!!!

He's lost 8 of their last 10, 6 straight, and haven't beaten a decent team ALL season. The combined winning record of teams beaten by Flutie this year is 23-38. They've only beaten 1 team that is over .500 and that is Denver who has been seriously hampered by injuries since the beginning of the season and probably won't even come close to making the playoffs and may even finish below .500 w/ all the injuries.

Meanwhile, Flutie, in 6 straight losses, has less than 200 passing yards per game, has thrown 5 TDs to twice as many INTs (10) AND has 2 additional fumbles to boot for 12 TOs total! He's been HIGHLY ineffective in leading his team into the red zone and has his team near the bottom of the league in red zone TD production.

In this past Philly game, he was unable to get into the RZ more than 3 times, twice barely, resulting in 2 missed FGs, which obviously were not his fault, but his inability to lead the team far into the red zone for TDs certainly was! He had 1 drive only in which his team went into the red zone for a TD. The other TD was HORRIBLY underthrown and very luckily caught by Graham on a play where the DBs had given up pursuit b/c they thought the ball was going to be incomplete. A SPECTACULAR catch by Graham, and the credit for the TD goes 100% to him and 0% to Flutie for throwing the ball 5-10 yards under!

Flutie hasn't beaten a decent team all year and many of the Chargers' losses can be DIRECTLY attributable to him and him alone. The Chargers boast the 7th leading rusher in the league comparable to Stephen Davis or Ricky Williams! They also boast the #1 STs unit in the league and #12 yardage D and the #13 scoring D!

Meanwhile, Flutie remains the 25th rated passer in the league behind even Batch, Fiedler, K.Collins, and Grbac, and RJ by over 3 points. He is just ahead of Couch by .3 pts.

He's 23rd in TD%, 20th in YPA, 25th in Compl. %, and in general one of the worst QBs in the league this year!

In 6 of S.D.'s 8 losses, Flutie's averaged less than 50% complete, for a total of only 2 TDs, 8 INTs, 9 Total TOs, and average of 156 yards and a team average of only 12 offensive points!

He's a LOSING QB! What's interesting is that he really hasn't played all that much differently than while he was here! What's also interesting, is that while ANY other QB in this league would be taking a significant amoung of heat for some of these losses, he's taking only a nominal amount and none in some circles!

Flutie has PROVEN that he is NOTHING more than a below average QB in this league who has been benefitted by having played on a team (Buffalo) w/ a #1 D in '99 securing most of his wins!

S.D. faces Oakland at home next week, then K.C. on the road, and then Seattle at home, w/ Seattle possibly fighting for a playoff spot. So S.D. figures to win maybe one of those remaining games and will more than likely finish 6-10 while dropping 10 of their last 13!

NOT GOOD DOUG!!! Actually, AWFUL!!!

I'll say it! The emperor has no clothes!!!

Let's go media, let's get off this artificially created "He's a winner" bandwagon premised on collegiate and CFL performances and start calling it what it is! Nothing more than a cult phenomina based on a charisma that attracts a totally disproportionate amount of women, and one that STILL hasn't relinquished any momentum!

[bduff54]

your right wys, flutie is past it. but what about our team, how can we criticize another team when we are 2-10. is better than 2. i'm not defending flutie here, he has been very brutal. the job should be brees' next year. i'm still not seeing why people should stop hating Rob? i don't hate him but i don't blame people that do, they spend their hard earned money on a ticket and alot of the time they see a guy running around and inventing his own plays when all they want him to do is drop back and throw the ball. quite simple really.:)

Well good then, you shouldn't have any trouble seeing why people hate Flutie then for being the catalyst, at least in large part, for WHY people hate Rob!

Right! :D

You shouldn't!

[bduff54]

i think people hate rob due to his pathetic performance. how can you not see that?

[billsfanone]

Oh boy!

So, how did you like the win against Carolina?

[bduff54]

lol bills fan. good win, henry looked impressive, if he can hold onto the ball he will be a star.

BTW, who gives a crap about Flutie! I don't! I don't care if they start Brees or leave Flutie in there 'til he needs a walker to get to the huddle. It's their team, not mine, and quite frankly, I could give a crap whether or not they go 14-2 or 2-14! Makes ABSOLUTLEY no difference to me! NONE!

But much of RJ's perception here was his playing all the tough teams on our schedule last year and barely losing some of those and not getting the defensive support that Flutie got in leading us to less than impressive "wins" w/ 13 or 17 on the boards where the D stepped up to save the day and give Flutie credit for nothing more than he's doing now w/o the same defensive performance. Actually, in 5 of his losses this year, he's put up more points than in 2 of his wins last year in Buffalo. In three of his losses he's put up more points than in 3 of his wins here last year.

Rob gets to play mostly top half rated teams last year and he comes out 4-6, while Doug gets to play 5 games against 4 of the WORST teams in the league last year and gets lauded for putting up 13 or 17 points in a defensively won victory! Meanwhile, people who can't seem to see that football is a team sport played on two sides of the ball, namely defense and offense for anyone who can't figure it out, BASH, and I mean BASH RJ for losses in which he actually played better than Doug did in some of Doug's wins! It's ridiculous!

It wouldn't be all that bad if those same people could recognize that and cut the man some slack! But no, last year it was all wins and losses. No need to look at the other factors. Now, for those who worship Doug, all of a sudden there's this tremendous need to "look at those other factors!"

The bias is as plain as the nose on your face and yet only some people can see it! The sooner the fans here forget about Doug, the sooner RJ, or ANY QB for that matter will have a fair shot from the fans. The sooner FFs realize that it's all been a sham since the beginning, the sooner they'll come back down to earth out of their "teen idol" clouds and start gripping reality again.

MOST of RJ's games last year were against playoff teams! Only 1 of Doug's was, and he LOST it! Other than that, Rob played just fine in '98 and '99 for those who care to look at it objectively and not blame Rob for, and hang his entire career for the HRTB!!!

This year, it's been proven that the team has a host of issues, of which the QB play only has a portion to do w/ it, and is secondarily responsible to the play of the OL!

The RJ "HATING" gets REALLY old! What gets older is people defending a QB who gets bashed on another team while stating that to bash our own is perfectly fine!

No one's having trouble bashing Christie, and he's not gotten any undue support. Flutie ain't playin' any better than Christie did yesterday, ON THE WHOLE! And yet here everyone is defending him as if he's Johnny Unitas! He stinks! He's one of the worst QBs in the league! So WHY is ANYONE defending him or his release! If it isn't clear that we wouldn't have won one more game w/ him here by now, it never will be! Thus the bias! And that bias is a double-edged sword; with "Love Flutie" on one edge; and "Hate RJ" on the other! It's rare to find someone who realizes that Flutie didn't really do that much while here w/ his 13, 16, and 17 point victories, who also hates RJ.

The ignorance and voluntary blindness of that segment of fans is growing REALLY old! REALLY!!!

[TacklingDummyRJ]

I don't hate Rob. But I do think he is not our QB of the past, present or Future. And that has nothing to do with Flutie. It has everything to do with Rob. Rob is the only one who can shut people up.

He has been shown up by 2 different backups the last 3 years.

1 who had to goto canada for countless years and another who nobody wanted but our Bills.

RJ has lead the league in 2 catergories 1) Sacks per passing attempts and 2) excuses made for him.

Marv Levy said RJs time is up, why can't you?

AVP has played more good games this year then either Rob or Doug.

AVP 120 of 198, 1425 yards 10 TDs 9 Int. 80.5 Rating, SACKED 11. Games started 4.

RJ 134 of 216, 1465 yards 5 TDs 7 Int. 76.3 Rating SACKED 31 times. Games started 8.

Take away AVP 1 bad game and the couple of times he had to come in for RJ and didn't play to well because the defense knew we had to pass and AVPs numbers would blow RJs away even more.

Why is it Buffalo's offensive line plays so much better with AVP then RJ? I bet if you took a quick poll of Bills linemen, they would rather have AVP as the QB then RJ.

The Bills are allowing almost 28 ppg this year!! Now go find for me the number of games that Doug would have won w/ our D allowing 28 pts. in each game!

I believe it's 3! There might be a fourth in there...

But instead of 21-9, he'd have been 27-3 if our D was as bad as it is this year, and frankly, I wouldn't see a whole lot of fans supportin' him and thinking that we'd be better off w/ him in there if that were the case. But it would be! How many times did Flutie EVER light things up here? You can count 'em on one hand!

That's my last post on the topic for this week!

TD,

Unlike you, I'm not going to equate an OL with:

Heimburger, Brown, Conaty, Hulsey, and Carman, with one of:

Fina, Brown, Conaty, Ostroski, and Jennings at midseason in his rookie year!

But since you can't seem to see the simple difference there, there really isn't much sense in discussing the matter further.

If you want to buy a 2001 Porsch for 20K, let me know!

Actually it's a '95 Avalon, but who cares, a car's a car!!!!

[bduff54]

"the sooner the fans forget about doug, the sooner rj or any other qb fro that matter will have a fair shot from the fans" You see wys i see it the other way around. i think if we get rid of RJ the controversy will be gone, people will not be able to compare flutie and our new QB. who would say, "we should have kept flutie, this daivd carr guy is not a pro-bowler yet" ? if we get a young QB the fans may take him under their wing and let him get comfortable and mature into a quality QB. and i really don't fee lthe team is behind RJH and that may be the biggest reasn foer letting him go. he played hard, not well but hard, he deserves to be released and given a shot somewhere else as a BACKUP. we should draft Carr with our pick.;)

Also, just like in '00, where Rob played mostly playoff teams, I really don't think that comparing Rob in games vs. N.O. w/ one of the best DLs in the country, Pittsburgh w/ the #1 D, and then other playoff bound teams such as the Jets and N.E., to a game by VP, in which I think he played average but not better, and versus arguably the WORST team in the league!

But it's just like Rob to be the benefactor of EXACTLY such comparisions! I'm not going to defend Rob as he can defend himself through his play, but I will point out the extraordianary harshness of the criticism against him and the watermelon-to-grapes comparison that is used.

So now a QB who beats Carolina is better than one that loses to St. Louis simply by virtue of that, eh!?

I can't sign onto that! But again, I'm seein' a bias here when you start sayin' that VP's played worlds better than RJ. He's had a MUCH better OL on the whole, he's played better in 1 game, and 10 times as horribly in another, and frankly, unless yardage is you only measure, he played OK yesterday, but do you think it ANY coincidence that we won w/ a well-over-100 yard rushing performance!?? I don't!

Now I know you'll argue that it was VP's play that opened up the running game. But I think we both know that's a crock! It was the coaches relentless pursuit of it and willingness to KEEP running the ball that FINALLY gave Henry the carries to allow him a decent day vs. a poor D to begin with!

So is VP our starter again in your eyes! This is ridiculous! Truly!

[TacklingDummyRJ]

Or can you tell me why Eric Moulds Stats. are better with AVP then RJ?


Moulds with AVP 25 catches 414 yards 2 TDs 16.5 Yard Ave.
Moulds with RJ 24 catches 291 yards 2 TDs 12.1 yard Ave.

[TacklingDummyRJ]

Originally posted by wyswings
TD,

Unlike you, I'm not going to equate an OL with:

Heimburger, Brown, Conaty, Hulsey, and Carman, with one of:

Fina, Brown, Conaty, Ostroski, and Jennings at midseason in his rookie year!


So another words what your saying is RJ would have had just as good as numbers as AVP did if RJ played instead of AVP in those games?

And by the way, RJ has played with both Fina and Jennings. The only one he hasnt played with is Jerry O.

[bduff54]

that is a good point tackledummy. it just brings me back to what i was saying earlier. the players don't have faith in RJ and that is painfully obvious. i don't think comparing van plet vs. RJ in the carolina game is fair, carolina is very bad team and i'm sure RJ would have lit them up aswell. it boils down to this. should rob get another shot? i say no way. he dosen't deserve it. wys, it comes down to this. would you rehire a guy that you paid 60,000 a year to and he was responsible for loading your wing sauces on a truck. but everytime he went to load then he dropped them and they shattered all over the place. the guy says to you "wys, i'm sorry dude but the truck was wobbling" and he did this everytime. would you rehire him? basically rob says " moulds getting the ball? i can't control that".:D

First of all you're wrong duff! There are fans here who will hate RJ even if he makes the probowl! Actually, ESPECIALLY if he makes the probowl. Why? Because the hate even the notion that he'll succeed! Of course no one will admit that, but if you think about it, it's quite true! They'll say that if he starts playing well they'll be happy, but I'm tellin' ya, they'd rather be right than happy in that sense! THAT'S why they want to see him cut! If he isn't here, then he CAN'T succeed! THAT'S also why you and other fans are willing to put ALL of our eggs, every single one of them, on the most UNLIKELY scenario that a rookie QB will develop into anything other than a bust or an average or possibly even a below average QB. The chances are REMOTE that a rookie QB will come in here into our "system" if it's even a system at this point, and have ANY success whatsoever for at least 3 years!

How about INSTEAD, grabbing enough OL-men to make a difference this coming offseason and season? Doesn't that make a little more sense to you?

And NO, we can't have both! A first round QB AND a bunch of decent OL-men in the draft! I'm tellin' ya, keep talkin' like that and thinkin' like that, but GW's job, our success over the next couple of years hinges directly on what we do to address our OL! If and when that happens, ANY QB's chances for success will be increased SIGNIFICANTLY WHEN, and ONLY WHEN, that happens.

You know, it's funny! Everyone says Rob doesn't throw the ball away quick enough! Well, last week VP threw the ball away quickly on 4 occasions and it cost us 4 INTs!

Yesterday, I saw Flutie throw the ball away twice resulting in 1 INT and one Intentional grounding that couldn't have hurt the team more and stalled a critical drive in good field position. Sometimes there's more than meets the eye w/ these things.

But the flag here seems to be that WHATEVER ROB'S DOING, THAT, and THAT ALONE, is the "mistake of the day" and what "QBs can't do" to succeed!

I'm not saying he's gonna be the QB of QB's next year, as I'm FULLY aware of his issues! But blaming HIM, and HIM alone for each ane every single woe that the TEAM has, is ludicrous! HIS PLAY also ISN'T THE WORST THING ABOUT OUR GAME, as Van Pelt has shown! It's the OL!

But what we have, what I'm hearin', and what is going to cost this team success for AT LEAST 3 seasons, is if we don't get 3-4 OL-men who can play in week one next year, during THIS offseason! I'm tellin' ya now! Take a look at our roster. We have 9 OL on it. 3 to 4, I certainly hope or we're doomed anyway, won't be on it next year; Heimburger, Farris, Carman, and Fina. Unutoa our LS too. Fina maybe, but he ain't good. That leaves us w/ 5 or 6 OL TOTAL! Only 4 starters in Brown, Conaty, Os, and Jennings. Hulsey and Fina shouldn't be starting and if they are, that simply means we haven't addressed our OL issues and woes!

IF, THAT happens, it won't matter who we start at QB! What part of this are people having trouble understanding!? But right now all I'm hearing is how some rookie QB will make us 10-6!!!

I'm ready to blow my brains out over here!

Imagine that scenario w/ a few OL taken in the late rounds and another bargain basement OL hunt such as the one we launched this offseason trying to make everyone else's junk our treasure!!! If THAT happens again, and say Brown goes down w/ injury, and/or Jenning again who seems to get hurt easily (talk about Rob), or Conaty, then we'll be SCREWED!!! SCREWED!!! We'll be 2-14 again!

But right now, what's driving our offseason moves is a uncanny HATRED for a QB who is not well liked for bizarre reasons! Sure, he MAY end up sucking! But at worst, he's an average QB. AT BEST, or OL is below average! WELL BELOW!!!

Get it! I sure hope so, b/c what's gonna happen is us drafting a QB high and NOT addressing the OL issues, and then doing the exact same thing next year that we're doing now.

Think about this! If Fina either retires or goes elsewhere, and Os as well, our OL has the propensity to actually get worse UNLESS we replace them w/ guys of equal or better caliber, AND we have NO, ZERO, injuries next season. That's at mininum! At best, they both stay, which I just don't see happening, and we have an older version of this year's OL w/ all of it's injury problems in Fina's knees and Os's health too.

I don't know about you, but I'd be 20 times more excited to see 2 fresh FA OL-men who can play at this level, a first rounder OL pick to grow into our OL, and yet another one or two later in the draft as some future depth! For if we have to rely on rookies and "non-NFL caliber OL-men" again next year for depth, we're gonna be hurtin' and you'll start seein' 40 some thousand fans at games in October!

[bduff54]

by no means do i think tht we will be 10-6 with a rookie. i jsut want to see our team work towards something. why is it unlikely that a top QB will be a bust, why do you say that. plenty of first round QB's have been great. the o-line is a problem, yes, but it's not as severe as you make it sound. brown, conaty, and jennings are all starters next year. pick-up a quality tackle and guard and were set. johson does not deserve another shot and nothing will change my mind about that, look at the injuries? wys have you even thought about waht this injury may do to his arm? who's to say the next hit he takes dosen't shatter his collarbone? it'a medical fact hat once you break your collarbone it is bound to be broken again, it weakens considerably. my buddy is a soccer goalie and he has broken his collarbone 3 times, and that's soccer. not ted wahington falling on top of you.

[ithacapeter]

Although one of these has beens is still playing . . .

Focus should be on who the Bills should draft at QB to take over from AVP in 2003. AVP has shown he's capable of delivering better with the same supporting cast.

It's beyond me why someone as smart as Wys should be clinging to a dream that such an amateur as RJ still could produce anything for the Bills. Being a starting QB in the NFL requires more than RJ is capable of delivering.

He's only had a couple of respectable games in his career. period. He shows some incredible flashs from time to time, but being a QB is cumulative and he just hasn't got it.

The more interesting question in these ongoing posts by Wys is when will his last post slamming Flutie be posted, and when he finally concedes that RJ sucked just like most of us have been telling him all along, will he retrospectfully look back and slam pretty boy for the multiple years of torture he's bestowed on Bills fans.

With a double dose of XXXXXXX-hot sauce.

What I'm sayin' TD is that RJ's numbers would have definitely been better than he had been playin' had he played in those games! Yes! He was already improving w/ the "non-OL" that we had! He had our best game of the year vs. S.D. Better than VP's game vs. Miami!

What YOU saw yesterday, apparently, is a QB who was solely responsible for a win!

What I saw was a team that didn't give up late in the game, and a game in which, FOR THE FIRST TIME ALL SEASON (which is to be expected w/ a rookie coach and all the changes we had this year) an offense that utilized more than one facet to it! For THAT, I credit the coaching staff. I also see a game in which we had 100 yards rushing for only the second time all year.

I see a game in which we did a lot of things properly, but again, a game in which we ONLY put 19 offensive points on the board vs. a team ranked dead last in yardage D in the NFL, 26th in scoring D. I see a team that couldn't even put up the average amount of offensive points put up against Carolina (19 to an average of over 26) OR even the average amount of yards they've allowed!

Apparently you want to give VP ALL the credit for this one! I certainly think that if Rob had played, showing what he has shown, he wouldn't have had any trouble doing the same.

It's funny, earlier this year he got poo-pooed for the Pittsburgh game because they were "supposed to suck" although it has now turned out that they didn't. Then the N.O. game w/ ALL of our "newness" as a team. Then he began to improve as the team did as well, and IN SPITE of having a crap OL to work with. Now, VP beats up on arguably the worst team in the league and all of a sudden we are back to "SEE, Rob sucks and can't play!"

I just don't get it! VP's performance was OK. He only had 1 TD to 1 INT. But I think the reason why we won was b/c the play calling was incredibly more diversified than it has been all year in conjunction w/ the success of the running game!

I know, I know! The running game was successful b/c VP was in there. It's only when RJ's in there that the RB is solely responsible for his performance! That's getting old too!

The problems w/ this team that will fix us for next year and make us a .500+ team is 80% OL! If we fix that, then we'll do well. If we don't, then we had ALL better get used to another poor season w/ few positives! If that's the way it's gonna be, my recommendation to BOTH VP and RJ is to see what the team does regarding it's OL before signing w/ us! I'd want to see the FA signing of 2 OL-men who can play NFL ball BEFORE I signed anything if I were them. That would also be contingent upon our drafting an OL in round 1 or 2 as well and 2 more from rounds 3+!

[naeliac]

I think the deal with RJ is this: He is not very good with a bad Oline (which would have a much lesser effect on Flute) but when given time he will destroy a D. How good was Kelly once the line fell apart? About half as good as he could have been and was with a better line. It is not that RJ needs a super line, but an average line would enable some very good things. I say the games he put up in his first year are pretty indicative, too many sacks, very few ints, high completion rate and a good TD rate, especially long ones. You combine that ability with an actual RUNNING GAME we could have an efficient O and good passing game, ala Peyton and his Colts. Notice when thing go wrong on his line/running game how crappy he plays? Gets sacked, throws the worst balls (really, that many picks for TDs is just terrible) and is really no threat to run. If you swap RJ and Manning, we would have a "Manning sucks he is no RJ contraversy" amongst the fair wether non-football minded fans.

[bduff54]

wys, you always speak of answering questions? all you do is hide behing the o-line excuse, what's wrong with what i said? all we need is two quality o-lineman. the dream is over buddy. Rj is an overpaid failure, deny it all you want everybody sees it but you.

peter,

w/ statements like that I'm not even going to address you! RJ's had 8 or 9 EXCELLENT games at Buffalo and another 4 or 5 good ones! He's had maybe 4 poor ones! That's it!

Again, just revealing your bias! But just as with you, I'd be happy to post all of his games for you to demonstrate to us that you are correct! But just like ALL the others, you'll say you will, then take a look when I post them, and the ignore them b/c you will find out exactly how incorrect that statement is!


duff,

"plenty of first round QB's have been great. the o-line is a problem, yes, but it's not as severe as you make it sound. brown, conaty, and jennings are all starters next year. pick-up a quality tackle and guard and were set."

No, that's not true at all! Most QBs taken in the first round don't meet expectations of greatness. Recent ones, and a few who have still to prove, are Dilfer, Schuler, Leaf, Vick. Most QBs starting is this league are not former 1st rounders. Many aren't even 2nd or 3rd rounders. Warner wasn't even drafted!

Secondly, it IS as severe as I make it sound. If you don't believe me, go ahead and do what I did! I put together a depth chart for our OL next year! Keep in mind that Fina can't play and even if he could, he may get cut or retire. Ostroski too although I think he'll still be here and I don't think he's as bad as many say.

But use Os, Brown, Jennings, and Conaty as our starting OL and put together a depth chart! Then tell me, while realizing that we WON'T go thru the season injury free, especially w/ an aged Os, why you don't think it's dire?

Also, where are you going to get a quality G or T in the draft that is "ready to play" and not get schooled in game one? Many people have posted here already that ALL the top OL picks were overrated if their performances this year mean anything!

Lastly, just b/c YOU aren't ready or willing to give RJ another shot, does not disqualify the truth. As long as that truth is hinged upon statements such as peter's that "RJ's only had a couple of respectable games in his career" that tells me that the aura around RJ is built on falsehoods!

And if people are willing to completely disregard half of his games in '98-'00 as being in the very good to excellent variety, then I can only assume that there is some sort of unexplainable, hatred, bias, or whatever you want to call it against the man!

But do you suppose the coaches know anything since they support him? Guess not!

BTW, in having to defend and explain why I think we NEED to focus on the OL, you guys seem to put me in the category of being an RJ lover! I'll tell you though that you can't be further from the truth. I'll be the first to say "cut his ass" if he can't play BEHIND A SOLID OL!!! Not behind an OL w/ 2 starters that deserve to be in the Arena League and two others that are new and the group collectively w/ only 16 starts among the 4 of them! But dismissing him when the reason for this team's failure is not his, which SHOULD be glaringly obvious by now, is not viable to me!

Many of you have said he'd be good in another system other than the WCO, if that is in fact what we've even been running! Well, what if we change the system to match his skills! Somehow I HIGHLY doubt that those same people would back up their own words and say "yeah, let's try him under those circumstances!"

I just doubt it!

OK duff!

For the record then:

Duff thinks that our OL is fine and NOT the source of the "lion's share of the problems" this year! That the OL, whether it was w/ starters who among 4 of them had only 16 NFL starts combined, played just as well as when we had the closest thing to our starting OL lineup in there, and that he thinks that playing behind Farris, Brown, Conaty, Hulsey, and Carman is the same as playing behind Fina, Brown, Conaty, Ostroski, and Jennings.

I think that it's one of the weakest in the league, and needs to be the first thing that's addressed in the offseason and the primary reason why we haven't played well. And that the injuries up front actually made/makes a difference in the amount of time the QB has to set-up and throw.

OK! I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there duff!

OK?

[bduff54]

there you go again wys puttin words in my mouth? "duff says our o-line is fine" when did i say that? i know it's a problem i've stated that numerous times. i wasn't talking about the draft, i'm talking free agent. one tackle one guard., couple of draft picks to back em up.

"4 poor ones, thats it" that is ridiculous i can name 5 right now off the top of my head. indy last year, pitt this year, second indy game this year, n.e. this year, N.O. this year, any complaints. didn't think so.

[ithacapeter]

8 or 9 excellent games. And I'm biased.


He played in 5 games in 1998, 2 in 1999, 12 in 2000 and 9 this year.

28 games total.

Which of these 28 games did RJ have excellent games. I can't think of any.

[bduff54]

the only "excellent" game i can think of was T.B. before he got injured. no excellents this year. sand diego? he threw a pick for a TD, that's not excellent.

[TacklingDummyRJ]

Originally posted by TacklingDummyRJ
Or can you tell me why Eric Moulds Stats. are better with AVP then RJ?


Moulds with AVP 25 catches 414 yards 2 TDs 16.5 Yard Ave.
Moulds with RJ 24 catches 291 yards 2 TDs 12.1 yard Ave.

Im still waiting.

[bduff54]

when you pose a quetion that he can't deny he mysteriously disappears into the sauce factory, very suspect:D

[TacklingDummyRJ]

LOL

Nahhh, the answer will be AVP (A career Backup) plays with a better offensive line.

RJ is Mr. Potential but he is being showed up by a chubby,Rag Arm, slow, no-talent, QB.

1st-wy settle down before you have a heart attack.
2nd-wy,what was rj doing when df was trying to do his best to win and the bills were winning.NOTHING
because he is HURT again.

Who gives a **** about Flutie!! I don't! All I'm doin' is pointin' out the flawed reasoning in the arguments elevating him to NFL greatness! Last year it was "he wins games!" This year, "we have to look at 'other factors' "!!!

THIS, is the same crowd that's evaluating RJ!!!

No peter, sorry, not gonna do that song and dance again!

You guys ALL bore me to eternity w/ your closed minded views and one dimensional vision, analyses, and assessments!!!

If you guys were a little more consistent w/ Flutie then maybe I'd believe you on RJ to an extent!

Why does Moulds play better w/ VP? I'd tell ya but you won't even consider it! You'll just skim over it and throw out one of your patented "the butler did it" catch all phrases w/o any reasoning or logic behind it as a one-liner answer to it!

Look, you guys reduce football to a few simple things! I just can't do that! There's WAY too many factors, THIS YEAR w/ the Bills to pin ANYTHING on one man, QB, LB, I don't care! So if that's what's gonna make ya happy, then so be it!! Frankly, I'm tired of arguing points when you guys don't listen to any thing I say!

duff, I put words in your mouth when I said what I said, but you accuse me of "hiding" behind the OL when it isn't even close to the same OL. So you MUST mean that who's on the OL makes no difference!!! There's NO OTHER OPTION!!! Sorry I didn't phrase it the way you like to make you come out of there smelling like roses, but that's the problem when you take positions like that! It's a risk that someones gonna take you at your word! Sorry! Not my quote though. But you can't say that "the sky is blue" and then criticize someone who claims that you said "it isn't red!"

To the sauce factory Batman!! :laugh:

BTW, Rob's gonna be on this team next year, so y'all had better undergo some anger management or you'll be pissed 'til the end of next season and possibly beyond if he actually has a full OL to work with, because I'll promise you that behind a full OL he's gonna do very well!!

I'll take that bet wy.

[bduff54]

if rob is back i will support him 100% just like i have this year, i cheer fo him because he is our QB. i just don't think he deserves it. if they bring him back they have no balls. 5/25 and no production.

[McBill]

This thread is a fun read!

You have to agree with Wy - Flutie IS a loser this year! For all of you who threw out the "knows how to win" stuff all the time, while saying "RJ just loses" must now (as Wy is pointing out)
maintain CONSISTENCY and say that , for this year

Flutie IS a LOSER and
RJ was a LOSER too.

Otherwise, you shoot yourselves in the foot for all the times you said "Keep Flutie, he's a winner" - you ain't bein honest!!

Myself, I never thought Flutie was great, though very effective in 98 and some decent stuff in 99 and 2000 - however, this year he's losing. Big time. 6 in a row - eeeuuuyuch!

Now, I don't say it is all of his fault - just like I never said RJs losses were his fault - I differ from Wy in that I felt it ain't easy goin to a 1-15 team with a new OC, new HC, new WRs, and so-on, with almost the exact same personnel from the 1-15 team, especially weak Oline, and what looked like some mid-season O changes that were throwing the O off the game.

So, it isn't all his fault - I thought he did OK against the #1 pass D past week except for the turnovers, for example - but I can say that since I have never touted DF a something "amazing" (esp. after the summer debate with Wy) although I thought some were too hard on the guy 'cause of all the FlutieFlake hyperbole that was driving people insane (Wy!!). So, I can say it isn't all his fault and be consistent, unlike a number of folks.

NOW - as far as RJ goes, though I am cheering for AVP right now as the starter, I'll be cheering for his three TDS/ per game pace next year. It has not been easy fpr the guy here, though I think he should have found ways to cope. Management screwed up the whole qb thing, and so Buffalo paid a price - and RJ also had a lot of new things to deal with this year...like a weak Oline, etc.

Again, I'l try and nail people's arguments/points if I think they need to be sharpened - that's part of the fun of debating on the boards. Nevertheless, it does seem to make sense that RJ will be back as our qb - so, we should get on board with that.

Bills may even end up with the same # of wins as SD this year - wouldn't that stick to the face of FFs everywhere!

McBill:cool:

If they don't bring him back they have no sense! It'll be the end of our team for years to come gambling on some rookie who in all liklihood won't work out.

Think about it this way, if we do put all of our eggs in the rookie basket, AND he DOESN'T work out, THEN we are screwed!!! B/c we'll either have to go to another rookie 3 years later, also at high dollar unless we end up w/ a gem late in the draft, and THEN hope he works out.

RJ WILL be around, and I say STILL draft his 'heir apparent' and work him in, just not throw him to the wolves behind this OL and ruin his career before it even begins! If the rook is any good then he'll start at the end of next season if we don't make the playoffs, which is likely, or possibly the following year when more talent is in place on the OL.

I just don't understand what's unacceptable w/ THAT solution! The ONLY thing that I can figure is that you guys are so angry and pissed at RJ that you just don't WANT to see him succeed even if he could, and that you're willing to take a HUGE gamble that would ruin the team if you're wrong, WHICH the chances and odds say that you are!

VERY simple question for ya!:

Assume that Rob IS going to be on the team next year!
Assume that he plays well next year! Top half of QBs in the league!

Would you THEN be happy that we kept him, or not??

It's a VERY SIMPLE, 'YES' or 'NO' question!

YES

or

NO

No "ifs", "only ifs", "what ifs", "but ifs", just take the question at face value and answer it!

I wouldn't get too excited about winning more games this year; we play possibly all four playoff opponents from here on out and all teams have solid Ds the way they're playing right now, even Atlanta to an extent when you consider who they've played.

Also, 3 of the 4 are on the road. I'd love to go 4-0 or 3-1 to hit the ground running next year, but if we go 1-3 or 2-2 I'll be happy. Especially if we can beat the Jets or N.E. Miami would be nice, but I think the Jets and N.E. are better teams right now.

[McBill]

Hey, "are you talkin to me?"

I say "Yes" - he's the three TD guy, and I say back the team up if they keep him (injuryies and all - just continue to work on his sliiiidddeeesss!

What are ytou up to Wy? Just lurking on the boards for a bit?

McBill

[bduff54]

if rob works out ofcourse i will be happy, i like the guy i just don't think he deserves another shot, i honestly like the idea of drafting CARR or gettign a free agent (jeff blake). another thing that everybody over looks is rob's collarbone, who knows what will happen next time a 300 pounder slams him to the ground, it all seems very risky to me, i know draftign a QB would be even riskier but i say screw it and go for it, get the fans excited around here.

McBill,

Talkin' to duff first, then you, per the topics raised. Just goin' thru the boards b4 I do the news updates...


duff,

That's fine. If RJ's shoulder is screwed then so are we. IMO we can't really afford to cut him and have nothing. At least w/ him here we have A QB on the roster. You say he's gotten a fair shot, I don't. I will say this, that after next year I won't be sayin' that!!! It's do or die for him and it's do or die in the first half or so, 8 - 10 games. If he can't get himself squared away, then we'll stick someone else in there. I got no problem w/ that!

Carr? First of all, he ain't a WCO QB. That adds 2 years to the NORMAL learning curve which is 2 years already. I'm just not ready to write our O off until '05! Even if RJ ain't all that, he's proven that he can be average. An experienced average QB is and will always be better than an inexperienced rookie one trying to a) adjust to the NFL; b) trying to adjust to an entirely new system that he's never played before; and c) trying to overcome poor OL play at the pro level as a rookie which we may very well have next year and the year after during our 'growing pains.' That's too much for a young rook QB to over come all at once! Didn't we learn our lessons w/ "too much too fast" this year? The same applies to a rookie individual. Your expectations for a rookie are astronomical. I think we'd just be settin' up a rookie for failure. Better to draft one and let him learn/watch while the OL improves and he gets used to the NFL and it's speed.

In the meantime, if on the remote chance that RJ proves himself worthy of starting against all the odds and in spite of the controversy, then great, we'll have found an answer and will STILL have a young QB in the wings waiting. If he sucks, we can always STILL throw the rookie in there. It's not like we're limiting our options by keeping RJ. We ARE limiting them by NOT keeping him.

If his shoulder prohibits him from throwing, then I say that's simply too much baggage and we need a solution more quickly. But then we're hosed! What do we do? Cut him and take a huge cap hit now when we don't need it and get nothing in return? It would be bad if his shoulder doesn't heal properly. The Texans won't take him either way is my guess. They only have so much cap, I think $30M to take guys off of the expansion draft. That ain't much and to fill it w/ RJ ain't gonna happen. They'd have to pay him the $11M, I think! THAT would be crazy. So we'd have to cut him I guess. Or if they think it can heal through some physical therapy, that may work. We should know more over the next few weeks. My guess is that he'll start throwing, not to play, just to throw, in about 2 more weeks.

Oh yeah, to expound on that "fair shot" thing;

He only got a few starts in '99 and '00 which he played well in, so I assume that, which may be a false assumption, that he is not receiving criticism for those years since he DID play well. Everyone seems to be caught up on that single S.D. game in '98 where he played only a half in one of the worst coached games I've ever seen the Bills play. Routinely having our 5-man OL try to take on a 7-man D-front! Crazy and the coaches made no adjustment. The unfair comparison that went over EVERYONE'S heads is that when Flutie came in, S.D. went to a spread 3-4 and didn't blitz AT ALL while Doug was in there. Other than that he played well in '98 and '99.

Of course there's that "perception", and that's all it is, a perception, that Doug would have won that Tennessee game. But when you really look at the facts and trends, you can easily see that there's no basis for that statement. Nonetheless, a part of Rob's perception that he can't win, a large part, comes from that single game and the fact that Phillips screwed Flutie by yanking him in week 16, which even I agree was wrong at that point. Even though I agree w/ the reasoning, it was a pinheaded move!!!

Anyway, that brings us to '00 and '01. I wouldn't evaluate ANYONE in isolation w/ the team and ALL the changes, which was just about everything this year. I just don't think it's fair to ANY offensive player. Or even D, although on D it's easier to prove yourself individually.

As far as last year went, Rob started and finished, for the most part, 10 games. He was 4-6 in those games, and the combined W-L record of the teams that he lost to was 61-35! That's an incredible schedule to have had to play. 2 or 3 of those games he played closely. 5 of those losses were against playoff teams! The combined record of teams he beat was 30-34. Big deal you say, and I won't necessarily disagree w/ you, although he did beat the Titans who were one of the best teams last year at 13-3.

But the reason I pointed that out, is that fairly or unfairly, Rob was COMPARED, NOT to NFL QBs stats, but to Doug Flutie. I'm not quite sure that's fair, but the reason I put up those numbers is for you to compare both of their performances last year and see if there isn't a slight bias.

Here are Doug's same stats:

The combined record of teams that Doug beat was 25-39 and contained NO playoff opponents and only 1 team over .500, the 9-7 Jets. BTW, both of them played the Jets! Rob played them in NY and actually played a better game than Doug did at home in Buffalo. Rob led our O to 14 points on the road, while Doug led our O to 16 points at home. The only reason Doug won while Rob lost is that the D at home scored a TD. Also, Doug had 0 points directly in his game, while Rob threw for 2 TDs. Yet, it gets boiled down to "Doug beat the Jets" and "Rob lost to the Jets". Home, away, point production, defensive performance, NONE of that is included in the analysis. Strange? Fair?

The combined record of teams that Doug lost to was 16-16.

So if you compare those two, which is what everyone did albeit indirectly, you'll see that Rob played ALL the toughest teams on our schedule last year. Frankly, I think if the roles had been reveresed, Rob would have been at least 4-2 and maybe even 5-1 or 6-0. Meanwhile, I don't think Doug would have been more than 4-6, possibly worse. Actually, in 3 of those losses of Rob's, Doug did actually play in those same games and played even worse than Rob did. I certainly think that suggests something. You can see for yourself; the games were both Miami games and the T.B game in which Rob came out in the 3rd due to injury.

Anyway, if that doesn't mean anything to you, then you are really boiling things down to that which is just too simple.

Anyway, that's why I don't think Rob's had a fair shot. If the comparisons to "Doug's winning", which was really the D playing remarkably to "allow" Doug to win with the offense putting only 13, 13, and 16 points on the board for three of those wins, aren't unfair, I just don't know what is.

It would be kind of like saying, "OK, let's find out who the better QB is here!" Dilfer or Warner! We'll put Warner on the Bills and have them play Chicago, Pittsburgh, Oakland, and Philly. And we'll put Dilfer on St. Louis and have them play Detroit, Carolina, Cincy, and Dallas. THEN we'll see who does better and that'll be the best QB!

I just don't think that's fair, but THAT'S what happened, largely!

Reread this a few times if you don't agree. But if after reading this, you still think that Rob and Doug had the same shots, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree on the topic. Also, keep in mind that Doug had 15 games w/ the #1 D in the league and only went 10-5 for about half of "his" 21 wins.

Also, one thing that I didn't mention was that Rob had to play several top 10 Ds while Doug played NONE. Just another data point.

Why do I bring up Doug here? Because, whether it was fair or not, Rob was compared to Doug, and the BASIS FOR COMPARISON was WINS, and WINS ALONE. Sacks too, but we've seen how the argument that if the QB only gets sacked once or twice the the team wins is a false one. Also, due to VP, we've also seen that perhaps it is better to take a sack or two or three, than it is to toss an INT or two just b/c you are throwing the ball away. I guess that's a fair question too! How many sacks are worth and INT??

Food for thought....

[Player6600]

WYS, the obsession continues....

The Bills chose Rob get over it.

[bduff54]

hopefully sheppard will be gone so we won't have to worry about the west coast offense, i know it's early days but i don't see the rational in keeping a bad o-coordinator, i honestly bleieve sheppard is not experienced enough to handle the job. as for RJ i feel that by keeping him we are taking a step backwards, by draftign a rookie the fans will accept that the team will struggle and will have to be patient with RJ they know how mcuh money he makes and he is 28 so they won't be willing to watch him learn.

[bduff54]

hahaha, wys what is a fair shot? the guy has benn here 4 years and has been giving the starter role 3 of those years, the fact that he got injured is tough @hit, he has had more than enough opportunities.

[bduff54]

what does flutie have to do with this ? sure rob was unfairly compared to flutie, does that mean i should cry for him and say he deserves another shot. gimme a beak. he's a failure. the team dosen't support him and you know it. hopefull somebody like cowart or moulds or brown will step up and say coach we don't want RJ as our QB, that is very likely to happen.

As to Sheppard, we are in agreement!

As to the rest, let's just drop it then...

;)

[bduff54]

ok, but you know he got a fair shot. don't pretend wys it dosen't suit you;)

Yeah, he's been around for 7 seasons and has had 18 starts! Sure! I agree wholeheartedly that he's had a fair shot after ALL those games over all those years...

That's less than 2.5 gpy! Yeah, he's sure had plenty of time to provehimself.

And half of those have been against playoff teams in their given years! Yeah, we're in agreement then...

[bduff54]

well wys, how many games will he miss this year due to injury? how did flutie get the job originally? some guys are just injury proned it sucks, but you gotta move on. look up patrick rafter, great tennis player forced to retire, too many injuries.

those are easy:

7 full games and 1 partial one.

Defense was what won most, the vast majority of Flutie's games. "HE" didn't get the job done as far anything even approaching exceptional as far as QB performance goes!

Media bias and one dimensional "ever-changing" analysis is another correct answer! It's kind of a trick question!

[Player6600]

WYS-are you blind. Why would the fans love him and the media respect him.

Just give it up!

Am I blind!? Why, ... I don't know! Let me check..

By jove, I am! I didn't even realize it!

I'M BLIND!!!


The same could be said about Hitler!!!

THINK ABOUT IT!!!!

;)

[Player6600]

what the hell are you talking about.

WHat's wrong with you, comparing Flutie and Hitler

You were kidding, right?

Because if you were serious then I won't ever enter into a serious discussion w/ you again....!!!

Please just say "yes" and make avail of my face saving post...

Pleeeaaasssee!!

;)

[McBill]

As far as last year went, Rob started and finished, for the most part, 10 games. He was 4-6 in those games, and the combined W-L record of the teams that he lost to was 61-35! That's an incredible schedule to have had to play. 2 or 3 of those games he played closely.

Hmmm - that was a hard schedule, Wys. Great post, by the way.

McBill:cool:

[McBill]

As far as I am concerned, I agree with Wy on a lot of what he is saying - RJ certainly has played some tougher teams, and still put up decent numbers.

I'm trying to find the holes in the argument, Wy - gimme a day or two!! ( I'm writing a final examination tomorrow morning )

Perhaps Flutie is lucky - or, perhaps stats don't tell the whole story - they're what we have, however, empirically speaking. It then boils down to how much weight you put on them, and how much you figure you can discount certain things.

It is very difficult to discount, for example, the fact that RJ played the tougher teams - but some comparisons would need to be discounted. For example, I'd be interested to see how the other qbs did against those teams those years, rather than comparing Flutie - now, is that viable? Probably not, since RJ has played and completed so few games - the sample is just too small!:)

Again, I'd like to see how Flutie's results in 1998 compare with other new qbs, of whom other Ds do not have any "tape", since I feel the argument does not wash when we look at the entire 98 season. But, that may not be fair, since most of those new guys are rookies, while Flutie had played 9 years pro!

Hard to compare stats properly, that is for sure, without having provisos all over the place! That's why I look straight at DF's record this year and can honestly say atleast one thing without any qualifications: he's been a loser!

I can say the same thing about RJ this year too.

So when I then look at the stats for DF, I can say - nice start, crud middle.

When I look at RJ, I say crud start, getting better in the middle.

Then I start to look for the variables, causation, etc...not easy to do. I still say the QB rating system of the NFL could be much improved - I like the Peddler Passer Rating system; more complete I'd say.

Whewww! RJ is the guy for us, anyway - I don't hear great things about the crop of qbs coming up, and RJ could pla another 5-8 years as long as he learns to stay away from the big hurts!

McBill
McBill
:cool: