How Good is Flutie?

Can he compete vs. the best teams and play well?

They play Philly this weekend. I consider Philly to be a top Defense in this league and if we are to take history as a lesson, Flutie won't perform so well.

Just curious how those of you who think he's good think he'll do on Sunday? I don't think it's gonna be very well. I think McNabb will show him up in spades and that he's gonna throw at least 3 INTs. Not knocking, just my prediction and I'm curious how many of you seem to think he'll do! I also see him getting sacked quite a few times. 4+.

??? Post it and we'll compare after the game.

:)

Also, again, not knocking, just MOST curiously interested and facinated by the lack of accountability of him in the lack of performance of the Charger O. But the Chargers have lost 5 straight w/ poor play from their offensive leader.

What are your all's predictions for when he begins to take some heat?

Soon, never? I'm startin' to think he's immune to any type of criticism in this league. Really!

Anyway, just curious what you thought...

[bduff54]

yeah, i think this might be a rough game for him aswell. douglas coming off the coner may cause huge problems. their seconday is very good aswell. unless they get tomlinson going they have no chance. priest holmes ran well afainst philly lastweek, i think this will be a low scoring affair like 14-10. mcnabb can be incredible or very erratci, flip a coin.

I just think S.D.'s D has been playing way over it's head and overachieving partly due to that "Flutie thing", but they are only gonna go at that speed for so long. I suspect we'll see a letdown in their play this week. That's why I suspect that Philly will win 27-3. Also, Charger DBs are overrated, not that Philly's WRs are anything to write home about, but McNabb can spread it around and he's got good TEs and Staley's been on!

Tomlinson should play well, but look for his carries to go down due to them being behind somewhere in the third when time becomes an issue. That's when I think you'll see a few picks from Flutie.

[TacklingDummyRJ]

Flutie will have a good game this week against Philly. His stats.? beats me,could careless.

IMO, If San Diego loses this week they may put in Brees sometime before the years over to get a look at him.

TD, I don't know man! This scenario is Flutie's worst nightmare. Strong passing D and D in general. I see 3 or 4 picks and less than 150 passing, w/ 0 TDs. He's never had success against such opposition. At least not in the NFL.

It'll be interesting. I'll probably watch it on the side along w/ the Bills game. They're both at one! Actually, who am I kidding, I'll get a seat at the bar w/ a great view of both games. I wouldn't miss that Philly game, his crown "achievement" of the season. :D

I'm on the other end of the scale though, obviously, TD. We'll see. If I am correct, it will be interesting to see what the feedback is this upcoming week. I don't see them putting Brees in this week. It would undermine his confidence too much. I see them doing it now perhaps in the K.C. road game or the Oakland game next week in S.D.

But Riley also said he wasn't gonna make the switch. I don't know why not, b/c if the Chargers are contemplating starting Brees next year, that's the best thing they could do for the youngster out of Purdue.

[TacklingDummyRJ]

San Diego already got 1 look at Brees and he looked awesome. They would be fools if they don't start him at least once more before the seasons over. He is the QB of the future in San Diego.

Why didn't Buffalo do what S.D. did? Keep Flutie and draft Brees? It would have made the majority of the fan base happy in keeping Flutie and it would have given us our QB of the future. Now we don't have a QB of the present or the future. We are still searching.

Don't forget though that Brees didn't play a WCO at Purdue. Not that we play one either, but it's closer to it than what Brees played at Purdue. Also, while Brees played well in one half vs. K.C., K.C. ain't exactly known for their pass D this season. So I'd like to see a little more of him prior to saying he's good. He may tank too. They should definitely put him in however, since Doug's playing poorly. Besides, after Sunday they'll be out of the POs for all intents and purposes and there'll be no reason to not play him.

I'm not all that convinced TD that the team doesn't plan on starting Flutie again next year. Riley will be gone so that'll make a difference. But if you check out what the fans are saying, they don't blame, many of them, Flutie for the failure of the O. Riley doesn't publicly anyway. They're where we are now, split in the fan base. Some see that Flutie's average at best and others think that based on reputation he's the guy to lead them to the promised land.

You know Flutie's workin' it from his angle and that Butler doesn't want to be put to shame so he's probably thrown in a good word for Flutie. He may very well start next year. I think if Brees doesn't begin to start, that may be the case. B/c ANY reasoning coach in this situation would start Brees unless they were afraid of starting a controversy.

Another option that I just thought of, and I doubt is the case, is that Riley didn't want Flutie but that Butler brought him there and forced Riley's hand. Perhaps Riley is now saying "screw you Butler", we're goin' w/ Flutie 'til the end just to spite you since he's getting creamed, and in all but Charger fans' minds is the source of their O problems. Who knows.

[ithacapeter]

Because Mr. Wilson is truly an idiot

I think Butler's gonna be the one out in the cold here regarding intelligence and common sense here peter!

I don't think Doug was worth a $4M signing bonus and $5M a year overall for S.D., do you? He's playing like a struggling journeyman out in S.D. that should be making $1.5M.

He also paid Rogers $3M to ride the pine! And overpaid for a few others too. May not pop up this year, but it will next. S.D. pretty much has to carry Flutie next year too. You think he's gonna play backup? To Brees?

Somehow, I just don't see that happening! ;)

[ithacapeter]

So now that AVP has once again proven he's a very good backup QB in the league, forget San Francisco game, and

if we take Marv Levy's advise and jettison RJ,

would you rather be looking at a "Brees" in his second year with Buffalo next year or

according to Leo Roth in todays Rochester paper "Fresno State's David Carr is a player with high first-round talent, and Buffalo will most likely pick in the top four".

Hindsight is beautiful. It shows us Buffalo should have kept Flutie and dumped RJ and started planning in the 2001 draft for a ne QB.

[bduff54]

i say grab carr and get some excitement around this team and the city.

Sure! And if Carr fails, as the odds say he will, then you guys have left us out in the cold w/ a HUGE cap burden and no viable options.

Oh yeah, that'll sell tickets...

Your reliance on rookie QBs tells me you guys haven't been watching NFL football all that long? B/c if you have been, then you'd KNOW that highly drafted QBs rarely turn out to be superstars. Besides, Fresno State, at least as of a couple of years ago, played a pro-set and NOT a WCO!

How quickly do you expect this guy to get up to speed? 4 games? That's HIGHLY improbable, ESPECIALLY w/ our OL.

You guys are just talkin' nonsense.

[bduff54]

why is that nonsense? i am prepared to wait for carr to come around, if we go 3-13 next year with him at the helm thats fine by me, atleast they will be working toward something. johson is what 28? Carr would be 22 and basically knows just as much as johnson. johnson is always injured, he isn't even that experienced. plenty of young QB's turn out to be good players, look at the high drat picks from the past. aikman, kelly, elway. manning, macnabb. there are plenty that have been succesful.

[ithacapeter]

It all comes to down to whether you feel RJ should be kept or dumped.

And where draft priorities should be.

I say dump RJ and get some goods in return.

I feel he's worhtless in Buffalo, but probably is still very marketable in a league where there aren't many quality QB's.

Even Larry Felser who was as pro RJ as they come says there's only about 8 quality QB's in the league.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20011202/1034887.asp

The answer is to draft a QB, hope it's Manning and not Leaf, and find the appropriate team for Rj and get some beef in return.

You won't get talented receivers or defensive backs, but there's gotta be some beef out there in return.

One for one for a stud young offensive lineman.

[bduff54]

finally somebody that thinks this team should show some ball and take a risk. carr in 2002.

[MVDaBomb]

Originally posted by wyswings
I think Butler's gonna be the one out in the cold here regarding intelligence and common sense here peter!

I don't think Doug was worth a $4M signing bonus and $5M a year overall for S.D., do you? He's playing like a struggling journeyman out in S.D. that should be making $1.5M.

He also paid Rogers $3M to ride the pine! And overpaid for a few others too. May not pop up this year, but it will next. S.D. pretty much has to carry Flutie next year too. You think he's gonna play backup? To Brees?

Somehow, I just don't see that happening! ;)

Butler's public perception has definitely benefited from the "Bill Clinton syndrome"...Leave office just in time when things are about to crumble - and people are too dumb to figure it out.
He did a good job in the draft, but as anybody ever handed out so many ridiculous contracts in a span of less than a year? Has anybody explained to him that this isn't baseball?
I wonder what his next stop will be after the Bolts cap blows up.

[bduff54]

the only credible signing he made was wiley. rogers is a waste, so is holecek. and flutie wasn't worth it. but his dradt was good l.t. and brees, that is quality.

[McBill]

I'm always happy to see a Wys thread - lots of **** chat, etc...

IMHO I believe Flutie will have a good game. The reason I believe so is because of how different the receivers looked to be playing in the last 4 games - I think their OC must have been trying some new things with the receivers because they and Flutie looked VERY confused about who was doing what - in the first three-four games this year they looked more in sync than most teams

( I remember after the third win Wys thought they might end up going 10-6, or 11-5, they were looking pretty strong...this was WAY back Wys, and so I did not look for that precise quote it is being buried deep in here somewhere so if I am wrong please forgive and don't hit that erase button!!!)

Anyway, I saw that KC game, and I just don't understand how all of a sudden the O and the backup looked more and sync - I wondered if they went back to their basic O from the Dallas games since Brees would not have had much practice learning the new O.

Perhaps maybe that is also why Riley and the others have not really jumped all over Flutie for having crap numbers in those games? Why they're not talking of sitting him when he certainly looks sittable? ( is that a word??)

WEll, they looked a lot better against Arizona, I hear, although I saw none of the game - and even though it was Arizona perhaps they did go back to their earlier offense??

I could, of course, be way off base here, but to me it seems silly to keep him on the field unless they actually thought he was doing a decent job - for Riley and Butler to do it simply because they don't want egg on their faces (for different reasons) is downright unprofessional - and, Butler was pretty quick to make some cuts of guys who were stinking, wasn't he?

Anyway, I see a decent game, but not a great one from Flutie - not a win, mind you, but atleast 200 yards, and a TD, and 1 INT.

McBill:cool:

McBill,

17 points vs. Arizona, AT HOME! THAT'S good!?

"I could, of course, be way off base here, but to me it seems silly to keep him on the field unless they actually thought he was doing a decent job - for Riley and Butler to do it simply because they don't want egg on their faces (for different reasons) is downright unprofessional - and, Butler was pretty quick to make some cuts of guys who were stinking, wasn't he?"

WHO did Butler cut that wasn't total deadweight? Ie., a "no brainer..."

Secondly, yeah, I DO think that Butler is being downright unprofessional! Otherwise he wouldn't be grabbing up all ex-Bills just to spite Wilson. B/c he certainly ain't doin' it out of need or talent! And overpaying for it too! NO! Great point! I don't think he's being very professional.

peter,

This explains it! Thanks!!!

"The answer is to draft a QB, hope it's Manning and not Leaf, and find the appropriate team for Rj and get some beef in return."

See, I don't think the "answer" is to throw away an undetermined number of years and put ALL of our eggs in the basket of one rookie QB and "hope" that he becomes great! That's tantamount to not working regularly and supplementing your irregular salary by attempting to win the lottery so that you'll have enough money to meet your needs!

No, I prefer to keep what we have and THEN draft a QB and if that QB is what we "hoped" he'd be, THEN, and only then, do we cut or trade our current QB.

See, in my method you don't screw yourself if your "hopes and wishes" don't come true! In yours, if they don't, your HOSED!

Which makes more sense?

On second thought, please don't answer that... :D

BTW, McBill,

Here's why Flutie isn't going to have a good day;

He'll be pressured ALL afternoon, literally. The best D that he's played, and IMO not quite as good as this Philly D, was the Baltimore D in '99 when he had 3 INTs and by all rights should have had 7. I see more of the same this time.

BTW, my offer for wager is still open; namely that S.D. doesn't get one single OFFENSIVE TD on any drives that start outside the red zone, ie. at Philly's 21 or further out. I'll put up some of my sauce vs. something you have, anyone. Shoot me an e-mail and we can talk.

Have to do that since the S.D. STs is #1 in the league in providing starting field position for their O, and it wouldn't make sense if the only score came after the D or STs set them up for 1st and 10 at the Philly 3.

[McBill]

No, 17 points at home against Arizona is not great - but I heard from someone who watched the game that an interception near the end zone was a ball that went in the receievers arms and bounced out into the arms of an opponent...a few other balls were dropped too. I know that sounds like excuses, but hey I've been making a ton this season for my Bills!

Rude said Flutie had a good rating, something like 108; if that was the case, then if you believe that the stats of the rating system are valid, then we'd have to admit that in the areas that are covered by the stats he played a good game. you saw it, did you not?

So, my guess was he won't play nearly as well against Philly, but won't be as gruesome as KC, Oakland or Seattle games -

You see 4 INTS? I don't know about that - take away the bunch he threw in the one game, and he actually has done OK in that regard, has he not?

As far as Butler goes, I'd be surprised if he is still trying to spite Wilson. I think we're over the top here thinking the grudge is still being carried - that's my opinion. By now, Butler is focusing on San Diegoe, and Wilson and TD are focusing on the Bills - I hope!! They all get enough money to do that!


No bet :)- I don't have anything that competes with your sauce, and I really don't mind one bit if Flutie tanks this game against Philly - I am more interested in whether the Bills finally get a WIN

McBill
McBill:cool:

[McBill]

I guess the other thing I forgot to reply to was your contention that he'll be pressured all afternoon. I think he's been pressured a lot all season - I think the San Diego O line is just too weak - they threaten nobody with the running game inside, so teams do not have to worry about red zone.

SD has no bronco-Billy fullback either to pound ahead. They also have weak pass rush protection. That's why I think DF has done OK there staying in games - that Oline is as bad as ours, I think, though you may disagree. I hold to it, though, for the simple reason that it has no power to push anyone anywhere! During a halftime show for another game, the announcers were discussing how San Diego's re zone offense this year is just as bad as the past few of years - what is with that? They've apparently been terrible. That tells me they've got Oline problems!

So, he'l be pressured alright, but it's not like it is going to be anything new for the guy. He just better pray he does not get another concussion or he sits the season out!

McBill:cool:

Watch a few games! That OL excuse is ridiculous! He's had more time than while he was at Buffalo, easily. I've seen him sit in the pocket for 7,8, 9 seconds. It's ridiculous. Sure it breaks down, but it's solid believe it or not. It won't be vs. Philly b/c they're gonna be blitzing the daylights out of him all day.

Tomlinson's on pace for over 1,300 yards and should go well over 1,000 in this their 13th game. So either Tomlinson's the best RB in the league, or the OL can't be that bad.

Their redzone offense is close to last in the league w/ some ridiculously low TD %age. Any of that his fault?

BTW, he has 10 TDs and 14 TOs in 12 games, w/ 6 of those TDs occurring in 3 games.

S.D. STs is ranked first in the league on several counts, they have a better than average D, and a rusher that is among the top 10 in the league and one of the top few in the AFC.

Hey duff, McBill,

If Flutie does crap the bed this week vs. Philly w/ 2+ INTs, 0 TDs, less than 200 yards, will you guys then admit that my assessment of him is/was accurate?

McBill,

"No, 17 points at home against Arizona is not great - but I heard from someone who watched the game that an interception near the end zone was a ball that went in the receievers arms and bounced out into the arms of an opponent...a few other balls were dropped too."

It's easy to say that Flutie was not at fault based on 1 pass that another dropped. I didn't see that game, I only listened to it, I didn't get the notion that it was a perfect pass however. Nonetheless, I did hear frequently throughout that game "underthrown", "thrown behind the receiver", and other such comments about Doug's balls throughout the game.

You can't just pin the loss on one play. While he was here, we always heard that he "makes the big plays to win it", and "he finds ways to win" etc. I just didn't see it vs. a very poor AZ team. The truth is that even poor teams have been lighting AZ up this year.

Let me ask you this, do you think that any other QB in his shoes currently would not receive any criticism for their team losing?

[McBill]

Let me ask you this, do you think that any other QB in his shoes currently would not receive any criticism for their team losing?

I think he must be receiving criticism, otherwise there would not be rumblings about him getting turfed for Brees, or Riley would not have to go on record to say that DF is the team's qb for the season. He certainly deserves some heat, that is for sure.

Watch a few games! That OL excuse is ridiculous! He's had more time than while he was at Buffalo, easily. I've seen him sit in the pocket for 7,8, 9 seconds. It's ridiculous. Sure it breaks down, but it's solid believe it or not.

The Oline excuse is not ridiculous Wys - I went ahead and checked to see the stats on that O for SD the past few years -last three years, right in the bottom for the red zone. The constant has been the line & the line coach. So, the Oline has not had the big push into the endzone, or on any run, I think. How many power TDs have they scored with all the times in the red zone? As I wrote before, they seem to lack a power Oline and a decent power fullback. So, no, i don't believe it - you recognize anyone on that line? i never heard of them - and they let Leaf get eaten alive last year, apparently, looking at the sack stats. I've watched a few games, and there is not much in that Oline to get the shove downfield. My guess is thet will replace atleast 2 to 3 of them - if they do, then we have to admit that the Oline sucked like ours ( not quite as bad during the Hulsey games, but almost)

As far as pass protection, I think you need to check the way the lined up - they have been going often with 2-man receiver plays, with their hot shot Tight End (the pro bowl guy Fredrick Jones) blocking at home - why? Because the Oline can't do it on their own , I bet! I haven't sat with a stopwatch but if you are, I'll only believe you if you sat with a stop watch during the Buffalo era. With 2 pass receivers to look at, neither of whom are like Moulds, it does not matter how long you have you'll just sit there and watch them get covered.

If Flutie does crap the bed this week vs. Philly w/ 2+ INTs, 0 TDs, less than 200 yards, will you guys then admit that my assessment of him is/was accurate

I have supported much of your assessments for a while, Wys!:)
The guy is no super saviour, has never been a HofF qb, is on a piss-poor playing streak, has limitations, etc. Also, too many FFs out there built him to Olympian proportions! He was doomed to fail from that height, considering he is only 5'8"!

However, with all my wanting for the Bills to win, and my not minding if Flutie bites it, I'm still willing to concede that he has had some decent stuff and still does.

1998 he played well - tape or no tape, and from many coaches I have spoken with the tape excuse wears out by game 5 or so - no excuse for the other teams by then.
1999 he did OK, made it through courtesy of some stellar D work, and some running skills on his own.
2000 had the backup role, and the reps that go with it, and still got the wins.
2001 - great start, disastrous middle ( which you predicted, you are the man! )

Now, he was 35 when he arrived and is now 39 - my guess is his speed is not there, - but to still play pro at that age has got to mean something.
Skill? Luck? Good schedules for 4 years? Awesome Defense behind him? Fan support? Intangibles? The proportions of these elements in the formula for his abiltity to stay in the game varies according to observers - you'd put most of it on #2,3 and 4. Well, perhaps - but I still can't think the only reason they are sticking with him now is because Riley wants egg on Butler's face.

What about my suggestion that the O had been trying a new set of patterns that was not nbeing learned well enough, much like the Bills and our struggles with our so-called WCO? I've given RJ lots of excuses - I am wondering wether or not the same thing was happening after the first 5-6 games with SD. Is that too far-fetched? Give it a thought for a minute and let me know. I think that might just be the case.

McBill:cool:

[McBill]

Wys, I went to check out those Union-Tribune articles you posted on the media newsreleases sometime ago, and i found this article which talks about the cruddy Oline for the Chargers

http://www.uniontrib.com/sports/canepa/20011203-9999_1s3canepa.html

I don't know how to link these things, but there it is...anyways, I am not entirely out of line with my thinking.
Flutie is sucking on the field many times this year, but I am not convinced it is all his fault.

McBilliondollarsinmybankaccountwouldbenice

:D

I simply write a good chunk of that off as the media thinking it's "inconceiveable" that any of this is Flutie's fault and thereby discrediting the OL.

The truth is that he's had plenty of time to set up and throw for the most part. He's not had to scramble nearly as much as he did w/ Buffalo the past couple of years. Not nearly!

Tomlinson is doing just fine from the red zone and in terms of scoring TDs as he is 7th in the league in rushing yards and 1 TD shy of leading the league for rushing TDs. That suggests to me that their OL isn't as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Also, Flutie has only what, 10 sacks!

The passing game is all that's struggling from behind the red zone, and as a D, when that's the case, you simply try to prevent the rushing TD and you'll stuff the team more times than not.

ALL of Tomlinson's rushing TDs have come from within the red zone, and just about all of those from within the 10 and even 5 YL. So if the OL is that bad at surging as the article suggests, then howcome LDT has 10 rushing TDs in spite of all that? It makes no sense, especially when you consider that Flutie's had only 10 passing TDs w/ 8 of those from within the red zone, 4 of them on the fringe, and only 4 within the 10 YL.

Do you believe EVERYTHING that's in print?

wy,what happens if df throw for 3 td and 350 yrds and wins 27-20 are yogoing to admit the df is a good qb.You have to remember foot ball is a team sport you can't blame doug for everything:fart:

[McBill]

Do you believe EVERYTHING that's in print?

Do you disbelieve EVERYTHING that's in print, Wys??

Seriously, that is hardly a decent argument! All I've shown is that someone else (a sports commentator who owes nothing to the short guy) besides me who has been watching the team does not like what he sees at the Oline.

Hardly means I worship the printed press! I like to think I'm a skeptic - that's why I give you a hard time now and again!:)

I simply write a good chunk of that off as the media thinking it's "inconceiveable" that any of this is Flutie's fault and thereby discrediting the OL.

Based upon what exactly do you write that off? I don't read anywhere that he finds it "inconceivable" that any of it is Flutie's fault! Writing about the Oline in no way suggests Flutie is immune from any blame - that's your perception, I guess of the article, but I just think "Hey, here's a guy who's watched the teams over the past few years. He must know something about this team - certainly more than a Buffalo fan (me) would."

Tomlinson is doing just fine from the red zone and in terms of scoring TDs as he is 7th in the league in rushing yards and 1 TD shy of leading the league for rushing TDs ALL of Tomlinson's rushing TDs have come from within the red zone, and just about all of those from within the 10 and even 5 YL. So if the OL is that bad at surging as the article suggests, then howcome LDT has 10 rushing TDs in spite of all that? [/B]

First of all, look at the ypcarry for Tomlinson or the O as a whole. Hardly the top. If the Oline had any real push, that average would be higher.
You did not reply to the historical fact that this Oline seems to really bite at red zone scoring - lowest % over three years. Were the previous years Flutie's fault?
A line can't get rush for 1st down at 3rd and one consistently - and you'd blame the qb?

Norv Turner is a running-game OC. I recall him and the Skins - inside right, inside left, meat and potataoes ball. He's calling for handoffs almost exclusively to one guy - look at the total TDs scored by the running game - anyone else's name besides Tomlinson? Where's the power back? With the amount of times they get into the red zone the team should have had way more TDs, and I'd say a lot of that has to be placed upon the Oline and probably some very predictable play calling, as well as Flutie (he's not immune in my books, just part of the blame)

The truth is that he's had plenty of time to set up and throw for the most part. He's not had to scramble nearly as much as he did w/ Buffalo the past couple of years. Not nearly!

I disagree, unless you've got a stat for this - and you did not reply to my contention that the Oline is getting help from an extra down lineman in Freddie Jones to protect the passer, but limiting the pass options. I guess you feel he did pretty well considering he was with our Oline in 1999 and 2000. That's a nice compliment for the microman! Don't tell Rude you feel that way, or he'll gush all over ya!

Again, you still have not responded to my suggestions that they may have been trying out complex new O patterns like we were trying out the WCO, and the receivers and Flutie were just not on the same page. Seems reasonable, does it not? What do you think?

BTW I agree with your overall position on Doug - he's average and was overhyped by Flakes everywhere - just not some of your reasoning on this thread. Trying to keep you sharp, bud!

Oh, and Ticat - no way Flutie gets 3 TDS and 350 yards. I thought perhaps 1TD, maybe 2, and 200-250 yards would be a very good day for him - that's a lot more realistic I think.

McBill:cool:

"Do you disbelieve EVERYTHING that's in print, Wys??"

NO! But things are written on both sides!

On LDT, IMO the reason why he's got a low ypc average is that just as I've said, teams aren't really overly concerned about Flutie's passing game, THUS allowing them to focus on LDT and stopping him! I've said that numerous times.

On Flutie having plenty of time to throw, I've seen it personally! I've not had to rely on writers and the like. He HAS had good protection and plenty of time, USUALLY. BUT, like all OLs, they do have lapses in their pass protection. BUT I also thought that Flutie was impervious to that as we've been told for almost 4 years now! Guess not then!

"Again, you still have not responded to my suggestions that they may have been trying out complex new O patterns like we were trying out the WCO, and the receivers and Flutie were just not on the same page. Seems reasonable, does it not? What do you think?"

Possible! But according to many people, and I agree, Flutie should be experienced enough to work around that as he's so seasoned in pro football. But again, from what I've heard, this doesn't address the notion that Flutie's a winner wherever he goes!


ticat,

double or nothing says that the Chargers don't get a single TD OFFENSIVELY tomorrow on any drive that starts outside Philly's 20. Ie., from their 21 on out?

Just let me know!

Let's make a deal, we'll come up w/ reverse stances that each has to take predicated on tomorrow's performance. If Flutie throws for 2+ TDs tomorrow, and no more than 1 INT, then I have to talk about Flutie as if he is the best QB in the league from now through the end of the year, in any post that I bring Flutie up in regarding his play in S.D. this year.

If he throws 0 TDs and has 1 or more INTs, then the opposite is true for both of you! You guys have to say that Flutie stinks and is one of worst QBs in the league in any posts that you make regarding Flutie and his play in S.D. this season!

Deal?! :D

1 TD invalidates the entire wager! Also, these are his passing TDs, not rushing TDs, STs TDs, or D TDs.

[McBill]

Hahaha! Sounds like fun, Wy! (Wys?Wyss? Wassup?)

I've been writing that he stinks over the past 4-5 games so it is not TOO bad a reach for me to just finish him off...but poor Ticat!!:) Seriously, I'l take it just for the laugh at at myself for even considering he actually has a chance for 2 passing TDs against that defense...

got a used car for me to buy too??

Thanks for the bet - I'm having fun about football again. I've been down about it for the last month with the crap I've been seeing on the field.

Now, just one question - do his two passing TDs have to come from starting positions outside the redzone?
(Like Norv Turner is going to call for passes inside the ten!!)

Maybe I'll even watch some of this game - when is it on, Wy?

McBill

[McBill]

Hey, again Wys - did a little more "stat mining" to try and defend myself. Here goes:

LT is among the league leaders in yards gained, but he is [/B]31st[/B] in the NFL in terms of average per carry!

The past 3 weeks LT has had over 20 carries in each game.
His average for that period is 3.43 yards per carry
...against the league's 15th, 22nd, and 23rd ranked run defenses in terms of total yards, or
11th, 22nd, and 31st ranked in terms of average per carry.

He is operating, therefore, behind a bad offensive line! Even teams with even worse qbs than Flutie, against whom defenses don't need to show any respect - are getting better average yards per carry out of their running backs! AND they do NOT have LDT to work with!

McBill


:cool:

I would agree w/ you except that Flutie's performances over the past 4 or 5 weeks have been pathetic, w/ the exception of the Arizona game, which wasn't pathetic, but AZ shut down S.D. for over 3 Qs, and when S.D. finally did score, some of it was vs. a prevent D.

So I say that the poor passing game was allowing the D to key on the run and stop LDT.

Case in point: Look a little closer at that AZ game!

Tomlinson was 21 carries for 75 yards in that game, right! That's a 3.6 ypc avg.

However, he only had 7 carries in the second half, 4 in the 3rd Q for 1 yard, and 3 in the 4th Q for 5 yards.

In the first half he was 14 for 69 for just about 5 ypc. The reason why he didn't get the ball in the second half was b/c S.D. HAD to make something happen since they were down by 4 at the half, and 7 at the end of the 3rd Q.

S.D. only had the ball for about 13 minutes in the second half compared to Arizona who had it for 17 minutes. They pretty much had to pass b/c the D had keyed on stopping the run. I was watching the game, that's exactly what was happening.

In the first half, S.D. had the ball for over 20 of the 30 minutes, Tomlinson was running just fine, Flutie was 7 of 9 for 39 in the first Q and 7 of 13 for 48 in the 2nd Q when Tomlinson was running very well. That's 14 of 22 for 87, or just under 4 ypa on Flutie's part. I certainly think that the passing game was the weakness of their offense in the first half. He had most of his 308 yards in the second half when they had to throw b/c AZ was stuffing the run realizing that they wouldn't get beat by Flutie's arm. That turned out to be a gamble that was correct.

So the OL couldn't have been all that bad to allow Tomlinson to have 5 ypc and 70 yards in the first half. BTW, I'm not saying it's great, I'm just sayin' it ain't the problem.

Here's a link for you guys...

http://www2.mybc.com/sports/nfl/fs.cfm?source_id=CP&id=1037033

I think these guys agree w/ me.

[McBill]

Yes, they agree with you in that Flutie has sucked the last 5 games, and that the O will focus on running the ball.

No comment there about the Oline, though -

Hey

Do you believe EVERYTHING you read in print??LOL:)

McBill
:cool:

Hope the Bills win big today - screw draft position!!

Indeed!

I believe everything; and I believe nothing!

[McBill]

Look out - 2TDS in the first half - against Philly D???

I've been watching the Green Bay game - then I hopped on the net to see how the Bills were doing...

"Crap - the Bills are getting killed.", I thought - "Another lost bet!"

Then I saw the score for the Bolts - what the heck has been going on there? Did you see it>??

McBill

Stellar first half performance by Doug, even though that first TD was totally lucky! Totally underthrown, the WR made an allstar grab. A VERY solid performance nonetheless!!

Second half, a complete reversal of the first. 6 of 16 for 78, 2 sacks, 1 INT, 1 FUM, 1 Intentional Grounding. Tomlinson was 6 for 21 in the 2nd half.

Guess we "split"! How fitting! LOL

[McBill]

Hmmm- did lose it in the second half, it seems.

However, he threw for over 300 yards and 2 TDs against the number one pass D in the league - that does not sound as bad as you thought!

Can you imagine if he had not thrown the second INT in the second half? Imagine your posts?? (Glad it did not happen, 'cause the anti-Flutie Flake Wy is a LOT better than a pro-Flutie one, though it would have been hilarious to read your posts! The reaching you would have had to do!:)

I'm bummed cause I did not respond to your bet - I could have won some delicious sauce! But, I did not think the guy could get two TDs starting outside from the endzone either.

I was a lot more optimistcis than you were:

Oh, and Ticat - no way Flutie gets 3 TDS and 350 yards. I thought perhaps 1TD, maybe 2, and 200-250 yards would be a very good day for him - that's a lot more realistic I think. while you said

I see 3 or 4 picks and less than 150 passing, w/ 0 TDs. He's never had success against such opposition. At least not in the NFL and a 27-3 loss .

So, what do you think? He outdid both our expectations, while Tomlinson fumbled for a Philly TD return, 0 Tds and not great #s at all. I also note that the special Teams FG unit seemed to continue to suck, blowing two easy FGs, one from 36 another from 27 - Butlet must be feeling like a putz for dropping Carney.

In my opinion, I wonder if I was right, that the team's pass O had changed, and have now gone back to what they had been doing before at the beginning of the season that won them 5 of seven.

ps Flutie did not WIN, hahahaha


McBill:cool:

You say if Flutie had not thrown that pick; what if Graham hadn't made a pro-bowl catch on that first TD? 24-7, eh. Anyway, he had 3 TOs and 2 TDs. Not bad against Philly. If he had simply had 2 TDs and 0 TOs, I would have conceded a good game. BTW, both INTs were his fault.

[McBill]

I don't doubt they were his own fault at all! Still, 305 yards - not bad for a 39-year old fart.

Hey, did Ticat take you up on the sauce bet? and did you see the Bills win? I saw neither - had too much work, and so only saw glimpes of the Bills game.

McBill:cool:

[McBill]

Closing remarks on this then I'm done

LDT went for 51 yards on 19 carries, = 2.6 yards per carry
Flutie went 45 yards on 6

Like I said, that Oline and LDT can't produce well enough on the ground.

In other words, Flutie was responsible for 350 of 400 total yards of O,or about 90%.

still no victory, of course, meaning his reputation as a "winner" is certainly taking a beating!

McBill:cool:

Nah, it sucked, Mother-in-law was in town, which is fine, except that I couldn't get out to watch the game. Of course they don't show Chi/G.B. or St.L/S.F. locally, they gotta show the Philly/S.D. game. You know the chances of seeing the Bills game here in D.C. are slim-to-none!

I got to our local Bills bar finally during the 3rd Q, but the best seats weren't available and all I had was a view of tiny little screens from a distance. Couldn't even tell who was who. Oh well. I still had a pretty decent view of the S.D. game right in front of me though. Ironic!

Anyway, not the best NFL viewing day. Went home at the end of the 1 pm games since wife and 5 mo. old were w/ me!

ticat never caught up to me on that DoN!

I just checked my email,so I did'nt get a chance to bet.But I was close boys,307 yrds and a couple of touch downs.But I was in the bush and did'nt catch the 1st half.How about my packers.

BTW,

This game was the prime example where yards don't make a hill of beans of a difference. Just about all of S.D.'s yards were between the 20s. They only gained 10 yards into Philly territory other than their TD drive, the 2nd one. The first TD was a spectacular/lucky catch by Graham on which both DBs gave up at contact but could've made a tackle had they thought that Graham would catch it.

Other than that, which wasn't red zone production, they had one drive into the RZ for a TD which was good. After that they only dipped into the RZ for 6 and 4 yards respectively for 2 failed FGs.

So, and as I've said many times before, yards don't mean jack unless they get you down into scoring range and put it in the EZ! S.D. is one of the worst teams in the league for that this year. Around 27th or 28th. Much of that has to do w/ Flutie.

I'll predict that your Packers will be in the SB.

G.B. Pittsburgh would be a great game! Oakland's a little too streaky for my liking. Miami blows even though their 8-3. Lucky and they seem to win for a different reason each week.

They have no running game, Fiedler is sketchy at best, and their D ain't no top D anymore. I simply don't understand how they're 8-3.

[bduff54]

after watching the rams yesterday i think they are unbeatable aslong as they don't turn it over. imagine what they would do against the bills. 72-13.:D