t's time to face the truth.

[bduff54]

hey wys and all the guys there along with myself who supported RJ. i think it is painfully obvious now that he is not going to be a great QB in this league. AVP is showing me that Rob is to blame for a lot of this season. AVP just drops back and fires the ball why can't rob do that? do any of you agree that we may be better off to part with RoB Johnson?

And OF COURSE that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do w/ VP being the ONLY QB of the two to have our completely healthy STARTING OL in there w/ some depth to help out, right!

I think all of you who support VP at this point in time simply hate RJ. I've stated my opinions on RJ numerous times before and so those of you who think I am giving the man carte blanch as our starter either can't read or don't read.

As far as VP goes, go ahead, crown him now, and just like the Flutie supporters, at the end of the season you'll be singing a different tune. Because I WANT it that way? ABSOLUTELY not! But b/c you are evaluating VP the exact opposite of the way you have been evaluating RJ in a total double standard.

VP won't have the OL play that we had yesterday for the rest of the year. He also won't have his WR's making 200 yards worth of catches in 4 plays leading to 3 TDs each game either. So before you get all excited, I would suggest laying aside the enthusiasm for VP UNTIL he finishes the season and has proven that he can ACTUALLY play a game in which HE does not commit a game losing TO or by not keeping an otherwise VERY sustainable drive to win a game b/c of a VERY POORLY thrown ball, and THUS COSTING us the game in each and every one of the three cases!

This man is a TO waiting to happen. And just like w/ Flutie, once the film starts "being developed", his play will suffer significantly. QBs like VP are a dime a dozen in this league!

In the meantime, is it possible to have a debate w/o RJ being responsible for things happening while he isn't even in the game and correspondingly, for VP to be evaluated APART from Rob!?

Also, hitch ALL of your credibility to the VP wagon if you want, which is EXACTLY what you are doing now. But if and when it comes to pass as I have said, please don't be discouraged when others no longer take you serious.

All we heard about Flutie is what a winner he was. Yet it was I who said once the game film came he wouldn't do that well. That happened to the point where he is now.

NOW, it's VP. I'm not saying that RJ is a future Pro-Bowler any longer as I was and I certianly realize his issues, but I don't want to throw out the baby w/ the bathwater and settle for a known quantity average at best when we can do better one way or another.

Also, ALL of you keep forgetting; IF VP does happen to light things up through the rest of the year BTW, he will be a UFA this offseason. That means that we would have to pay going rate for him and if he's that hot, I can assure you that at least one or two other teams will be that interested.

But if my suspicions are right, VP will be taking an awful lot of sacks for the rest of the year and I'll go out on a limb by saying that Moulds won't have 134 yards on 2 catches and 2 TDs every week! Just a hunch...

;)

[bduff54]

what are you talking about wys? when did i ever mention crowning AVP as our starter, my point is that an average to below average QB is moving the ball better than our 25 million dollar man, that to me proves that RJ is nothing but a bum and his time is up, it's been four years of waiting for potentila to come through. you are putting words in my mouth with those statements. i want us to pick up another QB and have van pelt remain the backup, when did i say he should be the starter?

[jeffblue19]

Rob Johnson is not made for the WCO. I thought maybe it would help him, but trying to break him of his habits isn't working. It's almost like trying to make Brett Favre play the game conventionally. It's not going to happen. Johnson needs to find a team where he can be creative and make things happen. Where he can stand in the pocket and set his feet if he needs to or he can take off and make plays on his feet...and not just because he HAS to due to pressure. He doesn't need a 3 step release the ball or get killed offense. He needs a good offensive line that can give him time to improvise or find the open man. This offense isn't suited for him obviously and it's better for him if he leaves. The guy's got a future in this league, but not with this team or half of its fans. The patience hasn't been there since the beginning, but the hatred has been. The guy is doomed in this city. He needs to put his stubborness and "i'll prove you all wrong" attitude aside and make the decision that's best for him. The Bills will go looking for another QB and struggle for a couple more years at least. Hopefully, Rob Johnson can land on his feet somewhere where an offense is tailored to take advantage of his strengths. If we keep him, McKinnie better be on his way to Buffalo and we better keep drafting O-Lineman.

[bduff54]

exactly. i totally agree jeff. i like RJ but he has to move on or else he will never get another shot somewhere else, one more year of losing and this guy will be blacklisted as an injury proned bust.

I agree w/ you jeff although I'd still like to give him one last chance, w/ a very short fuse, to see what he can do w/ any kind of OL which he HAS NOT had this year as VP has had.

Besides, unfortunately, even if that is correct as I suspect it probably is, it is still in our interests to sign him to a 3-4 year deal to spread out his cap hit for next year. Our cutting him would devastate this team's ability to make many improvements. If that is the case, then he'll be around. And unless we have a definite replacement at QB, I think he will get a final shot at doing something.

The thing that still has me holding out hope is that the play calling has not exactly put Rob in a situation to allow him to succeed. Frankly, our O is not all that much different than what it's been the last few years. Yesterdays game was slightly different.

He played well in '98 and '99 and even in most games in '00. He had 3 horrible games out of his 10 starts. So I know he can play in what we're doing now. So I have to put some of the blame on our OL and other facets of the game.

Also, WCO QBs are not easy to find and the "developed" ones don't come cheap. RJ has a year of experience under his belt and now a chance to simply watch, reflect on HIS game, and try and understand what the mental changes that he needs to make are. If he doesn't make them within say the first half of next year, I say start thinking about future options. But SINCE it's highly doubtful that we will have the "solution" on our roster at the beginning of next season, I say what are we losing by starting him?

VP ain't gonna lead us to the SB making the kinds of critical "no-plays" and errors that he is prone to making and thereby erradicating some solid performances of his own as well.

[celeste]

I agree - I still think that Rob can be a good quarterback but maybe not here. I know it would hurt the cap to cut him but I just don't think this is a healthy situation for him or for the fans. I can't imagine working in a situation day in and day out knowing that whatever I do will never be enough. Also, maybe with a different quarterback the fans can all get back on the same page and support this . One day I feel maybe he should go - the next I think maybe not. The one thing that keeps coming to mind is Kordell Stewart - how everyone hated him - wanted him gone - but his coach believed in him - with time and the right team around him - he is having success.

Could that happen here?

[buffalobill43]

RJ is definitely not the answer, we have learned that now, I don't think it really matters what kind of Oline he is behind, he does not fit in this offense.

AVP puts up great numbers, but did you see him try to run, he must be the slowest player on the field. He has also fumbled a couple balls in the few starts he's had.

Right now AVP is a million times better than RJ, and he has NOT had a better Oline than Rob, he is just accustomed to the WCO and it shows! Maybe with a lot of playing time AVP can be our Tom Brady, but much like him there is a chance he will not be around next season.

Here's a question I had though, do the players on injured reserve get to stand on the sideline? I didnt' see Cowart or RJ on TV last game. I hope they are both supporting the team even if they are injured.

Anyone think Watson might be better than Irvin at this point? I dunno, who is next in the depth chart? Irvin just sucks right now.

OK.

Who starts next year then?

VP? If so, I won't have a lot of hope for our playoff hopes.

RJ? If so, then we need to sign him to a longer deal to make it worth our while.

How about what I have suggested all along;

Sign Rob to a longer deal; start looking for our "new" QB. That could take years in this league the way it is now. Sure, we can 'buy' another QB at great expense. But how do we know he'll be any better than Rob. Great QBs don't come up on FA very often, and when they do, they go for something that we won't be able to afford next year or the year after.

So what's our course of action?

I say sign Rob to a lesser annual contract which mitigates the cap hit in 2 years or so if we decide to cut him then. In the meantime, if he does develop further, great. If not, then at least we have a QB who's certainly capable of playing better than he has.

...the benefit of the doubt of having the luxury of starting w/ our starting OL?

He hasn't played w/ that OL all year yet. Meanwhile, comparisons are being drawn on a game in which VP was often sitting in a pocket for 5, 6, 7, or more seconds. Rob NEVER had that and at least the announcers realize that. Just not impatient Bills fans.

Well, VP played so much better than Rob vs. the Jets. Not really. Rob put up a TD in just 5 passing attempts. How do we know he wouldn't have played as well over the entire game vs. one of the worst ranked Ds in the league at the time. That's a poor assumption.

Seattle's certainly no great D.

Miami is ranked near 20th this year in D and they're not very good either, frankly. Not saying Rob WOULD have done better. What I am saying is that VP had our starting OL, for the most part, for both of those games, and that to draw the conclusion that RJ would have stunk in those games is not fair.

He may have played just as well. But how about first seeing what he can do in this system w/ our first unit OL? And not while having to run for his life each and every snap. If VP had the time that RJ did early on this year, he would have gotten killed yesterday. You can't throw EVERY ball away w/in 2 seconds and expect to play well enough to win.

I certainly think that's fair.

I will say this:

I think that for a variety of reasons due entirely beyond any control of his, Rob's one of the unluckiest QBs to ever have played the game. Our OL consisted of a bunch of guys perhaps worthy of playing in the World League for most of this year.

Last year, in spite of some solid offensive performances, our D was all banged up late in the year and he didn't have that support. He also had Phillips and Pendry w/ the "Gee, guess which play I'm gonna run next" surprise D w/ the entire stadium calling out the play before the snap. OL-men who wouldn't play b/c he was in and not Flutie.

In '98 and '99, despite some VERY solid performances resulting in losses b/c of poor D, and a "fan favorite" as the backup who had charisma, he was labeled a loser totally unfairly.

When the team had a fairly easy schedule in '99 coupled w/ the #1 D, he got to sit by idly and see a mediocre QB go ONLY 10-5 on the merits of that same D when in fact up 'til that point he had scored FAR greater ppg than Flutie. Meanwhile Flutie got FULL credit for being a winner at the hands of that same D!

Now, VP comes in, has the FULL OL to work with. An Offense that is getting more comfortable w/ the new offense by the week. Coaches that are increasingly working the kinks out of our O and D. Plenty of time in a pocket which simply NEVER existed for Rob.

Yeah, I DO think he's gotten a raw deal. Sure he has shown indications that perhaps this isn't his type of O, but I also think the jury's still out on it UNTIL he FINALLY gets to play w/ the first string O in a game in which he is able realize some of those same benefits.

But giving VP ALL the credit b/c he played better when the play calling, OL play, running game, and many other factors were all working for him which were not working for Rob, is not being fair.

[McBill]

As far as I see it Rob needs another chance - why not? AVP is doin well, so that settles this year - he stays on til the end. Then the team reevaluates their committment to the O they styled for Rob, and cut bait where necessary to better suit Rob's abilities.

The way I see it he needs a chance to work out with all the new guys and systems. Both he and Flutie have had a lot of new things thrown at them - new offensive systems, new coaches, new players. I know RJ has more experience with the Bills receiving corps. than Flutie (Moulds, Price, Remeirsma) but with the limited time he's actually HAD on the field with them, plus the fact that that they're operating a new system they may as well be new receivers on the field.

I honestly think both qbs had too many expectations on them from certain groups.

FFlakes went ahead and touted Flutie as an unstoppable qb-god (haha) and so now have created this perception of a very LOUD fall over there, when in fact the team is 4 wins ahead of where they were last year with virtually the same personnel on the field and new coaches and systems - if they had just shutup for a minute realism would have set in - like hello, maybe a 39-year old 5'8'' qb is not going to make you a contender, ahem. I saw the game - seemed to me the DF did OK (against the Cards, of course, but there ya go, right Wys?:)

Same applies, in a way, to some Bills fans who seem to think a Bills team that is ripped apart and revamped, with rookies all over the place, will not affect RJ, whom they feel should either take the entire responsibility for winning on his shoulders or bugger off. I won't allow people to continue to make lame excuses for the guy, but I just think he's got so much to offer this team under the right conditions, conditions which have yet to be set...next year maybe??

So i won't face the truth until mid-next season with RJ at the helm.

McBill
:cool:

No more posts! Shut the boards down!

:cool:

[McBill]

Who's in agreement - me and you?

What about Player and the rest??

McBill

Did you mention Player in here?

No, I meant about RJ into about mid-season next year. If that doesn't work, then we have other issues. Coaching, RJ, something else, but it won't work. We can't go on a 6 year experiment. Next year max!

[bduff54]

sorry boys i just don't see it. i don't think avp is the answer but i just don't think rob deseves another shot. who knows if he even wants to stay here anyway? the fans have been awful to him. i just think it would be better to wipe the slate clean.

[TacklingDummyRJ]

Originally posted by jeffblue19
Rob Johnson is not made for the WCO.

LMAO, If hes not made for the WCO and hes not made for Joe Pendry's offense what offense is he made for?

Face it Jeff, RJ is just not a starting QB caliber QB in the NFL.
He would make a good backup somewhere but by no means is he a starter.

Injury Prone+
Inconsistent+
Can't read a defense+
Not Suited for WCO+
Not Suited for Joe P. offense+
Non-Leader+
Can't start and finish more then 2 games in a row=

A BACKUP QB

[billsfanone]

I am not an AVP lover. Seems to be a new term brought up by these RJ freaks. I supported RJ over Flutie. It failed! RJ is a bust. AVP, a far from average QB, outperforms RJ greatly.

[bduff54]

i love this guy, sees it exactly the same as me.

[billsfanone]

Originally posted by bduff54
i love this guy, sees it exactly the same as me.

Great minds think alike. Well, not if you still fail to see RJ is a failure.

[bduff54]

you should try and convince wys he is a huge RJ supporter and wants him back next year.

[billsfanone]

Originally posted by bduff54
you should try and convince wys he is a huge RJ supporter and wants him back next year.

Not possible. I tried. They may be related.

He has great wing sauce, but bad QB logic. :D

[bduff54]

i still gotta try the sauce, but i've never actually made good wings at home is it possible? do you guys have deep fryers or something, wys help me out?

[billsfanone]

I was the lucky winner of one of the week's challenges.

It's great stuff.

I baked the wings - not highly recommended by Wys.

Check out the instructions on his site:
http://www.wyswings.com/cooking1.htm

YOU can make better wings at home than at the restaurants!!

Guaranteed! Takes wee bit of practice.

wyswings.com

"Cooking instructions"

Also, if you try it, feel free to give me a call during cookiing and I'll walk you thru it.

[bduff54]

wys just read the bio on your site, "ten wing meals a week" you must be 400 pounds. which is better deep fried or baked, i don't own a deep fryer so i will have to bake them is it still good that way. i think i might venture into your sauce, how hot is the medium?

[jeffblue19]

i like celeste's earlier comparison to K. Stewart's situation in Pittsburg. He got booed EVERY game, played mediocre at best season after season behind a very strong offensive line, centered by Dermonti Dawson and with Jerome Bettis running for him. And yet, he still sucked it up many times and played mediocre the rest of the time. He's been there HOW long as teh starter now?? The fans lost their patience with him and booed him every game and anytime he did anything wrong. They wanted the backups in there and they wanted a new QB. They wanted Stewart out of town. Now, he's finally succeeding with a great running back in Bettis still leading the way. THe city has taken him back under its wing and they are sitting pretty at 8-2. The point...Stewart did VERY LITTLE to NOTHING to warrant the extension he got and the countless chances. The coach never gave up on him, even when everyone else seemed to. WHether this will happen here or not is yet to be seen. I'd rather not sit through a season where i have to watch a capable guy ROT away because thousands of fans don't even WANT to see him succeed for their team. The guy could have been the answer, but 4 years later, he'll never get the same kind of chance here again.

duff,

6'3" 250


Great piece jeff!

[bduff54]

hye wys did you get my order? how long does it take? i still don't kordell is that great, but he does the job.

Check your e-mail...

[bduff54]

yeah wys i got the e-mail. i'm really looking forward to it. so what do you recommend putting the sauce on the wings then in the oven or cook up the wings put some sauce in the bowl and shake them up? i got one mild one medium i think the hot might be too much for me? so honestly how often do you eat your own sauce?

Whenever I make wings! Usually now no more than once a week b/c it's a pain to get the wings from where I am. I don't always go out anymore since I'm working from my home.

Some weeks I'll have them 3 or 4 times though. If I had a house w/ a freezer instead of a small condo, it'd be far more often. I could eat them daily! Man, that would be good...

[bduff54]

that's some hardcore wing lovin, so sauce on the wings or wait til the yare done?

Since when is going only "10 - 5" which would have been 11-5 bad.

How many times in the last decade have teams had records better than 11-5.

I'm sure you'll be able to quickly get us this answer.

The RJ / AVP debate is a non-debate.

RJ just isn't starting Qb material in the NFL.

[bduff54]

i agree, it's not like we had a star running back or anything, thurman was basically done and antowain had fumbleitis. 10-5 was a very impressive record. totally agree on RJ not being a starter anymore, too many failed attempts, it's getting out of hand. how many chances can this guy get?

[Blue_Bandana]

Originally posted by wyswings
duff,

6'3" 250


Great piece jeff!

Now the big question - What is the percentage of body fat?

Is your Wing sauce good on steaks? If you use that idea in the future I want residuals on the sales.:D

Actually, I was talking to a buddy of mine tonight about that. He said he used the medium on steak and it was awesome. We were discussing it and since it's a vinegar based sauce, it permeates the meat nicely and breaks it down to tenderize it. Most of the liquids cook off when you grill it leaving the spices and seasonings in the meat. He really liked it.

He marinated the steaks in it for a while. I'm not sure I'd cook them w/ it brushed or applied on there after that.

Also, I wouldn't use filet mignon either. Try some inexpensive steaks and let me know what you think.

You gonna be at the N.E. game? BBI's doin' a first official TG party for it.

We should have an official BBI banner by then, and I'm having a logo made specifically for BBI's use on this site and the banner. One of our posters has been kind enough to donate some scratch for us to have that done. Thanks Mr. Anonymous!! :D

[shiva2999]

Hey wys, why not put your money where your mouth is and hire RJ to endorse your sauce?

Imagine what it would do for sales with RJ on your label flexing his big, strong wing (unfortunately now in a cast. sigh.) while sitting in his hot tub wearing his bandana.

Even though I'm sure Rob doesn't maintain that buff body of his by eating a whole lot of deep fried chicken wings, this association seems like it has "no brainer" written all over it to me.

Think of the slogan potential.

"Bring out all the potential in your wings!"

"Take a sack of our wings home today!"

"I don't cook the wings, I just eat 'em."

"Give your wings a fair chance."

and so on.

I'm sure at this point he'd do it for free because god knows he doesn't need the money.

Oh, please...

Do stop.

My stomach is just killin' me over here...

ha ha

:rolleyes: