Judge & duff, questions for ya...

Since you wanted to engage on these questions, here they are, one at a time. If one of ya agrees w/ a post by the other, just say so, or post your own answer! Also, keep in mind that we'll be tracking the logic you use in arriving at your answers, so no "doubling back." Ie., no saying that opponents played don't matter for one QB and then later saying they do matter for the other. You'll need to be consistent in your reasonings. As will I.

First question:

Flutie made a reputation in Buffalo for "being a winner!" I say he was the benefactor of great D in '99 which produced about half of his 21 wins while in Buffalo. Another 4 of those wins came last year, for a total of 2/3 of those 21 wins in '99 and '00. The question is:

How many of those games IN WHICH HE WON, did HE, Doug Flutie, put up numbers that you consider to be good games for any QB in the NFL, and which games were they. In other words, which games do you think that HE was mostly responsible for winning it and why?

If you just want to post the games, I'll be happy to post the stats as I find time.

One suggested site that has condensed stats, is http://www.football-reference.com/

[Judge]

Originally posted by wyswings
Since you wanted to engage on these questions, here they are, one at a time. If one of ya agrees w/ a post by the other, just say so, or post your own answer! Also, keep in mind that we'll be tracking the logic you use in arriving at your answers, so no "doubling back." Ie., no saying that opponents played don't matter for one QB and then later saying they do matter for the other. You'll need to be consistent in your reasonings. As will I.

First question:

Flutie made a reputation in Buffalo for "being a winner!" I say he was the benefactor of great D in '99 which produced about half of his 21 wins while in Buffalo. Another 4 of those wins came last year, for a total of 2/3 of those 21 wins in '99 and '00. The question is:

How many of those games IN WHICH HE WON, did HE, Doug Flutie, put up numbers that you consider to be good games for any QB in the NFL, and which games were they. In other words, which games do you think that HE was mostly responsible for winning it and why?

If you just want to post the games, I'll be happy to post the stats as I find time.

One suggested site that has condensed stats, is http://www.football-reference.com/

I've never given Flutie credit for being the sole reason why the Bills won. To lump me in as a person who did that is wrong.

I'll check the reference site out, but I have a pretty good recollection of the games I've attended and watched in which he played.

I will say this: Flutie was fortunate to play with a very good team. I will also say that Flutie did play well enough to help put his team into situations where more often than not the Bills won. I believe he was a positive contributor to those winning teams. I believe he was a strong factor in those successful teams.

And his stats weren't too bad either in general.

[Judge]

I think the following games were ones in which Flutie made a positive contribution to helping put the Bills in a position to win, either with statistically sound games or in helping to make big plays that helped the team come back or go ahead:

1998: San Diego, Indy, Carolina, Miami, Indy, New England, Cincinnati, Oakland, Miami playoff game.

1999: Jets, Philly, Miami, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Baltimore, Washington, Aizona, New England.

2000: Minnesota, NY Jets, New England, New England, Seattle.

SO, although some of those games lack in pure statistical beauty, they are examples of games in which I believe Flutie made a positive contribution to winning the game or being in a position to win.

A couple of examples: the 1999 Ravens game against a ferocious Ravens defense just coming into its own- a bad day statistically, but Flutie made positive contributions to the final winning drive. Similar to RJ's ugly Titans playoff game play at the end of the game despite a poor first 58 minutes.

Against Seattle in 1999- from my recollection the Bills and Flutie played horrendously in the first half and were down at least 17 points at halftime. Didn't they rally in the second half to make a game of it? Flutie battled with his team in a game involving a requirement that the run be abandoned.


Against New England in 1999- overcame a horrendous 3 quarters to lead the Bills on a comeback with 12 or more straight completions in a row and an OT win.

Did Flutie do these alone? No. Did he produce beautiful stats week in and week out? No. Did he battle hard? Yes. Did he help his team more than he hurt it? In my opinion, yes, and he was an important part of a surprisingly successful team that was expected to hit the skids in 1998.



I'm not positive of this answer, but what was Flutie's QB rating for his Bills-only years, anyways? I'm guessing it was at or above 80, which isn't too far off the QB rating of Jim Kelly.

[bduff54]

i agree judge, i have never said doug flutie was peyton manning, to be honest i don't even think he is a top half QB. i just don't think he is a disgrace to the game as wys would have you believe. i feel that while doug was here he did a good job for our team and played effectively enough to win. I agree with you Wys on our defence, we were very good in 99. Doug flutie didn't need to throw for 300 yeards a game, the defense would get him good field position and he would run the offense well. the only game that i can think of where he got huge numbers was the seatle game last year, basically he was playing for his job and he lost to a guy that i feel was the correct choice at the time but now i feel that guy should move on and try his trade somewhere else. bring on rex grossman baby.

[Judge]

Hey Bduff- I posted a detailed reply to Wing King's question, and you joined in my response.

Where's the well-reasoned reply promised by Wing King?

I was looking forward to a logical debate with the self-proclaimed guy "who is always right"!

:)

Sorry judge!! Out delivering sauce and receiving a jumbo shipment on two pallets that had to be stored away by none other than ME. Fun work putting away 200 cases of sauce and shuffling things around the storage facility.

Anyway, I'm back now, but have a wing-nite amongst friends that I need to tend to.

I do have some challenges to those questions. But first, I want to find out something else.

Do you guys, like the Flutie Fanatics, CREDIT Doug for "winning" while in Buffalo, or are you saying, as I seem to read into in the posts above, that he was definitely a beneficiary of a great team around him that was the primary reason for the Bills' success during that time period?

Gotta run! I'll be back either later on tonight or tomorrow...

Happy T-Day!!!! :)

[Judge]

I'll reply quickly:

you set up a false argument by trying to entrap us into saying 1 thing or the other. Neither of us said that Flutie was "THE REASON" for winning. Neither of us said that Flutie was "nothing but a beneficiary" of a good team, either.

What I said was this: that the Bills of 1998-99 were a very good team, and that Flutie played a very positive role in helping his team to win by playing pretty well.

Flutie contributed to the success of the team in those years. He wasn't the best QB in history, and he wasn't the sole reason for the wins.

He also was not just along for the ride- this was definitely not a case that you seem to argue, in which the Bills won in spite of Flutie.

I think he made positive contributions to the offense that helped the team. I've identified games from each year where, based on my recollection and aided by a review of the stats summaries, I believe Flutie made a very positive contribution to either helping the team win, or helping to put the team in a position to win.

OK, great!

Now, forget '98. That can go either way since most of the teams he played had horrible Ds. The only Ds that he played that were any better than #14 were the Jets and Miami Ds, twice each, and he was 1-3 in those matchups. I'll agree that he played well that year however, simply to move on.

But the trend in '99 and '00 was downhill dramatically. So let's focus on the games that you mentioned in '99 and '00.

1999: Jets, Philly, Miami, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Baltimore, Washington, Aizona, New England.

2000: Minnesota, NY Jets, New England, New England, Seattle.

You selected the following games as games in which he either put up good numbers or was the primary reason that the Bills won. So let's focus on those, shall we:

Let's start w/ the Philly game that the Bills won 26-0.

Why do you give Flutie credit for winning that game?

Also, when you answer, do be aware that whatever general logic and reasoning you use must apply to Johnson as well if you apply it to Flutie. Ie., no saying that Flutie didn't play well b/c he didn't have a good running game and then dismissing the same notion in support of Rob later when we get to that point.

It has to be consistent...

[Player6600]

WYS-sometimes it's not just about stats. It's throwing a key block, making 3rd-downs, or a last-minute drive. How about getting your team together and playing for each other.

It's called the little things (no pun intended)

666,

I offered you this opp many times over. You refused to take me up on it. I'll continue to engage Judge and duff since they've agreed to grab the bull by the horns and have an exchange of challenges and discussions such as I've been offering ANY FF for months and have been repeatedly turned down.

Enjoy the reading however...

If YOU want to engage me, then we'll start another thread that isn't related to this one. Just let me know.

:D

[naeliac]

Flutie had a knack for playing like garbage for most of the game and then getting a decent play in at the end. The problem is a point scored in any quarter (except overtime) is worth exactly the same. Sucking early and barely winning is not good play. Flutie is not a good QB, nor did he "Just Win" or "Make the little plays", he threw picks and lots of ducks that just stank. The QBs job is not to win games but to pass, run, and hand off the ball. That is what he does. The reason the PER exists is to measure the ability of a QB (or at least attempt to) isolated from the rest of his team (or at least the D and running game). Flutie cannot make the big swinging D**k plays that a QB needs to, he just scrapes by when the rest of the team is having a steller day.

He sure did. That Baltimore game was the prime example of that.

Last year he faced the following ranked Ds:

13, 17, 17, 20, 24, and 25

Vs. the 13, 17, 17, and 20 Ds, he led our O to 16, 16, 13, and 13 points respectively. 3 of one of those 13 was in OT too. That ain't good.

Vs. the 24th and 25th ranked Ds, he led the O to 27 and 42 points. Minnesota and Seattle were those teams. 27 was just a couple of points over Minnesota's ppg avg. against and we all know about the Seattle game.

So while you and I and some others see things for what they are and expect more out of a QB that gets ALL the credit, others seem to think that simply by virtue of being on the field he somehow "makes things happen." Funny thing is that it MUST be on defense or STs, since they obviously aren't happening on O.

In our book, that's what the QB gets credit for. If Flutie's world, just on the merits of being Doug, he gets credit for all b/c he's "the Flutie."

Sounds like a good movie; "The Flutie" LOL

Starring Dustin Hoffman as The Flutie! :laugh:

I heard so much talk about taking me on and grabbing the bull by the horns here. You even mocked me for not posting while I was out working. NOW, our debate has been before us and it's your guys turn to ante-up and I'm just not seeing anything!

Empty words?

No iron to back up the words?

If this is all I'm gonna get then I'd say stay away from the direct challenges if I were you! You come in here hootin' and hollerin' and then when the man gets up from the table you run out the door!

What's w/ that! Just like all the other FFs?

Just asking? Since you seem to BOTH have fled!!!!

[bduff54]

sorry wys totally forgot about this thread, do me a favor don't call me a flutie fanatic you know that's not true.:D

I just throw up the term loosely and generically. Don't ever assume that I am labeling you something unless I do. Your last post on the other thread showed me that you are not like all of THEM.

I was drawing a comparison, not saying you were one.

[Judge]

Originally posted by wyswings
I heard so much talk about taking me on and grabbing the bull by the horns here. You even mocked me for not posting while I was out working. NOW, our debate has been before us and it's your guys turn to ante-up and I'm just not seeing anything!

Empty words?

No iron to back up the words?

If this is all I'm gonna get then I'd say stay away from the direct challenges if I were you! You come in here hootin' and hollerin' and then when the man gets up from the table you run out the door!

What's w/ that! Just like all the other FFs?

Just asking? Since you seem to BOTH have fled!!!!

I was out of town for the holiday, went to the game Sunday, and am busy at work right now.

I'm still waiting for you to back up your statement that RJ has improved. All you do is continue to ask questions and try the "entrapment" method of trying to twist someone's words around to say what they didn't say. What have you contributed to this thread?

A question about what Flutie did in the 1999 Philly game? Wow, that was a well-thought post.

You know what Flutie did in that game? Not too much actually- he didn't need to. BUT, when called upon, he very often contributed positively to help the Bills.

When are you going to show some thought behind your "iron"?

[BogusTrumper]

bduff, Judge, I'm reading along too. One of the more maddening things about discussing this with WYS is that he insists on making the rules. Don't let him get you to throw out '98 just because he keeps insisting that it doesn't count. You can argue with him about it for all eternity but he is always so right that he can't see when he's wrong. :cool:

[bduff54]

so true, but i just ordered his sauce so if i say anything mean he might tamper with it.:D

Bogus,

You amaze me! I don't throw out '98. ACTUALLY, I concede that Flutie had a GREAT year that year!!!!! Apparently you can't read as I've stated that a zillion times.

What I DO find interesting is that I say that he played that way b/c Ds were misplaying him by defending the "long ball" "BC-type of hail mary" passes. The Jets KNEW how to cover him and he didn't do squat vs. them!

NOW, I've said that as soon as film became available and Flutie's performances dropped off, THAT was the reason. You want everyone to simply accept '98s numbers and base his NFL career on that.

How then do you explain the decline of his play over '99 and '00 then?

Also, it JUST occurred to me that I shouldn't be posting this. HENCE, I will end it.

I was going to end this anyway since you guys have not participated in the manner that WE BOTH agreed to do!!!!


As for you Judge,

"he didn't need to. BUT, when called upon, he very often contributed positively to help the Bills."

I find it interesting that you can't STATE in words what that was!

Consider our discussion over on this since you've not adhered to OUR rules!!

[Judge]

Originally posted by wyswings

Also, As for you Judge,

"he didn't need to. BUT, when called upon, he very often contributed positively to help the Bills."

I find it interesting that you can't STATE in words what that was!

Consider our discussion over on this since you've not adhered to OUR rules!!

OK- I consider it over because you are too much of a coward to participate BY YOUR OWN RULES.

You contributed NOTHING in the way of meaningful argument to support your case, tried to change the words of what I said to your own purposes, backed down when I called you on that, and asked more questions instead of responding meaningfully.

I am beginning to wonder if you actually watch any Bills games, because you contribute nothing to anything in the way of meaningful discussion.

You're cited for contempt. Get out of my courtroom.

The only contempt in your courtroom is you there Judge!

The onus WASN'T on me! Nice try though! Since you're throwing around names, no, it isn't me who's a coward. If there is a polemical coward here it's you! At least duff threw something to address the original question out, after which we were to proceed once the question was reasonably answered. It wasn't however!

Here it is since you can't read: (irony)

"Flutie made a reputation in Buffalo for "being a winner!" I say he was the benefactor of great D in '99 which produced about half of his 21 wins while in Buffalo. Another 4 of those wins came last year, for a total of 2/3 of those 21 wins in '99 and '00. The question is:

How many of those games IN WHICH HE WON, did HE, Doug Flutie, put up numbers that you consider to be good games for any QB in the NFL, and which games were they. In other words, which games do you think that HE was mostly responsible for winning it and why?"

See, anyone can simply throw out a bunch of games that the team won, but you see, that DOES NOT answer the question as stated. The "why?" was a BIG part of it. You see, anyone can make a statement w/o backing it up w/ anything substantial, as was done in this case. It's a totally different matter when you have to provide some sort of proof, whether it's a baseline comparison, or a comparison to widely held standards for certain stati, or something else. Anyone w/ half a brain here Judge can see where the communicational breakdowns in this thread lie.

You guys operate with your one solitary strength being the old adage that "if you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth!"

Nice try!

BTW, quit calling people names or there'll be consequences!

[bduff54]

he didn't call you a name?:D

"OK- I consider it over because you are too much of a coward to participate BY YOUR OWN RULES."

duff, I'm having to quote things a little too much for my liking here... :D

Eh, maybe you're right! Maybe for him that's a complement...

[bduff54]

what was this thread about anyway? who cares bills are on sunday night football, theismann will love the pill:D hey wys i cann see moulds having a huge game here, those SF corners are small and inexperienced.

I see a "First one to 40 wins" type of contest brewing.

Of course, many of us thought that the Miami game would be a defensive one... lol

[bduff54]

can't wait to see clements covering owens all day, i think he is the best reciever in the league by far. i hate moss, hate em.

I don't know why anyone would want to pay Moss $14M.

If he gets hurt so that the injury doesn't allow him to recover fully, then he's finished. He can't run routes that well, even when he feels like it. He's a purely "athletically" skilled WR.

No team awareness, no discipline in his training/WRing. He can outleap a kangaroo, but once and if that ability ever goes away, he'll be purely average.