Colorado Avalanche sign Paul Kariya and Temmu Selanne?

[starfirestar]

Posted at http://www.tsn.ca

This does not make any sense, with the CBA coming up.

[Player6600]

this is huge. They do have $8 million to spend after Roy retired

just imagine

Kariya-Forseberg-Selanne
Hjeduk-Sakic-Tanguay

now all they need is a coach.

[starfirestar]

They definatley won't have trouble putting the puck in the net. Maybe they signed Kariya and Selanne due to the fact that this might be Forsbergs last year with the Avs as he has stated he wants to play his final seasons back in Sweden for his Father. But, no Roy and no Forsberg=Kariya and Selanne.

[Sideshow Bob]

Just goes to show how unlevel the playing field is in the NHL under the current business model.

Colorado signs Kariya and Selanne to add to Forsberg and Sakic...

meanwhile, Buffalo fans are looking to the Sabres to sign Todd Marchant...

Yikes!!!

[Bay Side]

Looks like they probably just bought a cup!!

[LALAFONTAINE]

Forsberg, _Peter 11,000,000
Sakic, _Joe 9,880,939
Blake, _Robert 9,326,519
Foote, _Adam 4,300,000
Morris, _Derek 3,500,000
Hejduk, _Milan 3,200,000
Keane, _Mike 2,000,000
Nikolishin, _Andrei 1,750,000
Skoula, _Martin 1,350,000
Messier, _Eric 800,000
Hinote, _Dan 700,000
McAllister, _Chris 650,000
Aebischer, _David 550,000
Aubin, _Serge 550,000
Smith, _D.J. 500,000
Hahl, _Riku 385,000

$50 million before re-signing Tanguay and getting a goaltender. And now putting around $14M into Kariya and Selanne? Go Wild, whose total payroll was less than the top 3 Avs last year.

[starfirestar]

This is definately the end of Alex Tanguay. There is no role for him on the Avs now.

[Dean in LA]

Two more reasons to hate the Avs.

[LALAFONTAINE]

It's official now. $7M for both. $5.8M for Selanne and $1.2M for Kariya. Why the hell would Kariya take $1.2M? They're both one year deals.

[starfirestar]

That is strange indeed. Somehow that doesn't seem right. Maybe Kariya wants to win a cup so bad that he would take 1.5mil. Any team would've taken Kariya at 1.5mil. I think it's the other way around. Selanne is going to make 1.5mil and Kariya will make the 6mil or whatever.

[Jim Bob]

My guess is that Kariya has some wicked incentive bonuses built into the deal.

Either that or he really felt like sticking it to the Ducks.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by starfirestar
That is strange indeed. Somehow that doesn't seem right. Maybe Kariya wants to win a cup so bad that he would take 1.5mil. Any team would've taken Kariya at 1.5mil. I think it's the other way around. Selanne is going to make 1.5mil and Kariya will make the 6mil or whatever.

If he wanted to win the Cup so bad, why didn't he take $1.2M with a better team than Colorado, like Minnesota?

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Jim Bob
My guess is that Kariya has some wicked incentive bonuses built into the deal.

Either that or he really felt like sticking it to the Ducks.

How much of an ingrate does it take to be upset at the Ducks when they've paid you tens of millions of dollars to play a game?

[matthew94]

This was a great move by the Avs...signing both Kariya and Selanne for the price of one. The positive side of it is that they'll be the favorites to win the cup, I would say even with Aebischer or however you spell it.

The negative side of the deal is that they are both just one year deals so they'll be free agents again. Kariya, since he signed for less than the league average, will be an unrestricted free agent. Also, if their goaltending doesn't work out all of this potential offense won't mean much.

But at least it will be fun to watch.

I hope no one puts down Darcy for not signing these two. Obviously they wanted to play together and obviously they wanted to play for a cup contender and probably specifically for colorado. But Darcy better come up with something.

Does this make Tanguay available for cheap?

[Sideshow Bob]

Originally posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
If he wanted to win the Cup so bad, why didn't he take $1.2M with a better team than Colorado, like Minnesota?

I think he wanted to play with Selanne, Forsberg, Sakic, etc...

It's about playing with great players (Gaborik exclueded) while having a chance to win the cup...

[Jim Bob]

Does this make Tanguay available for cheap?

Maybe, but I doubt it. I could see Tanguay going for say Sean Burke. But other than that I see them Avs keeping him and Hejduk to give them two of the best scoring lines in teh NHL next year:

Kariya-Sakic-Selanne
Tanguay-Forsberg-Hejduk

Plus, if they deal Tanguay what do their top 2 lines look like after next year when Sakic and Forsberg could be retired and Kariya and Selanne are UFAs again?

[starfirestar]

I agree Jim Bob. Kariya might want to go back to Anaheim, as I still believe his heart will be there. Selanne will probably stay in Colorado. They'll want to keep their lines together. I think Forsberg will play with Karyia and Selanne due to the fact that Forsberg is a passer and will bring Kariya and Selanne to rediculous numbers.

[Jim Bob]

I guessed those lines because Tanguay and Hejduk played with Forsberg most of the year last year. Plus, I think Kariya may have played with Sakic for Team Canada at the Olympics. But don't quote me on that second part.

[D-Rocafella]

Just give us the cup already, it's over!

[LALAFONTAINE]

I guess winning the Cup with Colorado doesn't mean a damn thing with respect to indicating how good a goalie is.

There goes that argument...

I'm also guessing you no longer subscribe to the argument that retirement indicates the relative worth of a player either, or are you waiting until Hasek decides to come back until you reconsider?

[PUCKER]

I was shocked,but now the Avs will probably have the top 2 scoring lines.

Kariya-Forseberg-Selanne
Hejduk-Sakic-Tanguay (unless he goes)

[itslonganditsgood]

Bob Goodenow cannot be happy with Kariya signing for that amount.

[D-Rocafella]

We just need to resign Tanguray, and DeVries and well be fine. We will have the sickest 2 lines in the history of the NHL. ANd with guys like Blake, Foote, Morris, and DeVires we will also have a solid D to go along with the unstoppable O.

BTW, you guys got a good one in Drury. If you can make the playoffs you will see just how good he really is. He was very clutch for the Avs in his time in Colorado.

[LALAFONTAINE]

For someone who started watching hockey before the 1990s, you have a warped view of history.

The "unstoppable" O you mention scored 251 as a team last year.

I think I would take anyone/Gretzky/Kurri or Anderson/Messier/anyone before what Colorado has easily:

Wayne Gretzky................................. 80 92 120 212 26
Glenn Anderson................................ 80 38 67 105 71
Mark Messier.................................. 78 50 38 88 119
Jari Kurri.................................... 71 32 54 86 32

That's 234 goals from 4 players, only 17 less than what Colorado did as a team last year.

Or we could just reunite Lafontaine with Mogilny and Andreychuk
Pat LaFontaine................................ 84 53 95 148 63
Alexander Mogilny............................. 77 76 51 127 40
Dave Andreychuk............................... 83 54 45 99 56

That's 183 goals by 3 players.

But look at Colorado's Big Six. Three had less than 70 points. Selanne ain't scoring 76 goals next year. Sakic hasn't scored 80 points the past two seasons and will be 35 after next season.

Colorado probably has the best line in hockey, but they don't have the second best line hockey today: Vancouver does. And I'd take Bertuzzi/Morrison/Naslund over any Colorado combination except one: Kariya/Forsberg/Hejduk.

Don't embarrass yourself by saying it is the sickest two lines in the history of hockey.

[D-Rocafella]

Maybe I should have said the sickest 2 lines of the past 10 years.

[GrapeDRINK]

Doesen't matter, who cares who they sign. Now the avs are trying to buy a cup and I believe another team has already proved that isn't possible numerous times (Rangers). So Roc talk all about how your team is gonna win the cup because when the time comes it will be you crying again about how the refs knocked your team out.

[D-Rocafella]

You can buy a cup. Just look at the Wings of 02. You just need to get the right mix. I believe we got that right mix. Bringing guys like Kariya and Selanne who are hungry for a cup will keep this team competitive, just like when we got Bourque a few years back.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Kariya: 1.10 PPG regular season, 0.83 PPG playoffs
Selanne: 1.15 PPG regular season, 0.77 PPG playoffs

The Wings addressed their weaknesses and added the best goalie of all time. The Avs have no defensive depth right now and lack a goaltender.

[thegame]

Yeah I could see Colorado winning the President's trophy, but not Lord Stanley's Cup. Selanne and Kariya dissapeare in the postseason, and the 02' Wings comparrison doesn't work because the Wings had the best ever and the Avs have a backup. Just look at the 03' Wings to see what having a thrid rate playoff goalie does for your postseason chances.

[D-Rocafella]

Aebischer is not that bad guys. He will do just fine.

Cujo wasen't the problem for the Wings. There problem was there offense coulden't do squat.

[LALAFONTAINE]

If Aebischer is "not that bad," then Roy was "not that bad" leading the Avs to the same number of Stanley Cup finals as Hasek did in the last 7 years with Buffalo.

[D-Rocafella]

Twist the numbers buddy. Why not stop there. Why don't you point out how in even numbered years in the months of December and Janurary how Roy has a losing record when playing teams above the Mason Dixon line.

It would be much easier to say how many cups have both players lead there teams to in their respective cities (Buffalo and Denver). Then you find the answer is 2 to 1 for Roy, but ROy won both his Cups and a Conn Smyth to boot. All HAsek did was give up the most memerable goal in NHL history and lose the series.

[LALAFONTAINE]

He gave up the most memorable nogoal in NHL history.

The most memorable goal was Roy's Statue of Liberty 22z on one on one against the Wings.

[D-Rocafella]

Originally posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
He gave up the most memorable nogoal in NHL history.

The most memorable goal was Roy's Statue of Liberty 22z on one on one against the Wings.

Not even close. 10 years from now everyone will still remember game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals where Brett Hull schooled Hasek and won the Cup as Hasek let his team down. No one will remember Roy's performance against the Wings, but they will remember his 4 Cups, 3 Conn Smyths, and the fact that he has the most WINS by any goalie in the HISTORY or the NHL.

[pigskin]

You just can't rely on a unproven goaltender like Aebecher to take you to the promised land. Colorado will get somebody else in there. Even if they play Aebecher in the beginning, they will get someone else in their net.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by D-Rocafella
Not even close. 10 years from now everyone will still remember game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals where Brett Hull schooled Hasek and won the Cup as Hasek let his team down. No one will remember Roy's performance against the Wings, but they will remember his 4 Cups, 3 Conn Smyths, and the fact that he has the most WINS by any goalie in the HISTORY or the NHL.

Of course they will remember the nogoal. Why? Because it was illegitimate.

People will remember Roy's Statue of Liberty goal too.

Do you think Ken Dorsey is the best QB Miami has ever had, let alone the best QB in college football? Do you think that Krenzel was the best QB in college football last year? You must be very upset that the Bills did not draft Dorsey. Or does a QB have no impact on a team's performance?

[D-Rocafella]

Of course a QB has an impact on a teams performance, just like a goalie does in the NHL.

[LALAFONTAINE]

So then answer my question. Is Dorsey among the best QB in college football history? Was Krenzel the best QB in college football last year? Are you disappointed the Bills didn't drafted Dorsey in the 1st round?

[D-Rocafella]

Dorsey benifited from the system. He can't throw the ball downfield if his life depended on it, but he had probaly the best offensive line and running back, and a great wide reciever.

Krenzel is a good QB. He actually has an arm, toughness, smarts, and leadership. He wasen't the best QB in the nation, but alot better then Dorsey, and I expect Krenzel to make te pros and if in the right situation even start.

I would not want Dorsey on the Bills.

[LALAFONTAINE]

So then use the same logic with goaltenders. Roy benefitted from having great players around him, like:

1985-6 (4 HOF)
Mats Naslund 43-67-110
Bobby Smith 31-55-86
Larry Robinson HOF
Guy Carbonneau HOF
Bob Gainey HOF
Chris Chelios HOF
Petr Svoboda
Claude Lemieux

1992-3 (2 HOF, 3 possible HOFs)
Vincent Damphousse 39-58-97 (possibly HOF)
Kirk Muller 37-57-94 (possibly HOF)
Brian Bellows 40-48-88 (possibly HOF)
John Leclair
Denis Savard HOF
Guy Carbonneau HOF

1995-6 1 HOF (2 possibly HOF)
Sakic HOF
Forsberg 30-86-116 (possibly HOF)
Kamensky 38-47-85
Lemieux 39-32-71
Ozolinsh
Deadmarsh
Ricci
Foote (possibly HOF)

2000-1 3 HOF (2 possibly HOF)
Sakic (HOF)
Forsberg (possibly HOF)
Hejduk
Drury
Blake (HOF)
Bourque (HOF)
Foote (possibly HOF)

In addition to the great talent that has played with Roy, you also have to consider scheduling. Miami lucked out with their Big Least schedule in addition to down years from FSU and Tennessee. No different than Montreal not having to face the powerhouse Oilers in 1986 or any team that was better than them after the first round in 1993. Montreal's and Colorado's Cup victories are team achievements. Much as Dorsey's "leading" the Canes to two straight MNC games.

And how can Miami have the best o-line (Iowa did) and TB (PSU did), and have McGahee run for 500 fewer yards than Johnson, who had no offensive line AA candidates?

[thegame]

Thats a tough one between Johnson and McGahee. Most scouts seemed to be a bit lower on Johnson's pro potential (maybe because of his Penn State affilliation) than on Wills. Willis seemed more athletic, more complete a player to me, but I watched him more. I don't think you go wrong with either guy, but I'd go with McGahee, THEN anyway.

NOW... we'll see.

[D-Rocafella]

In football you can win with a system QB who has no real skills (Dorsey, Fraizer, and Brady), but in hockey there is no such thing as a system goalie. You need a guy who you can depend on to stop 30 shots when the time comes. That's what Roy was and that's what Aebischer is going to be.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by thegame
Thats a tough one between Johnson and McGahee. Most scouts seemed to be a bit lower on Johnson's pro potential (maybe because of his Penn State affilliation) than on Wills. Willis seemed more athletic, more complete a player to me, but I watched him more. I don't think you go wrong with either guy, but I'd go with McGahee, THEN anyway.

NOW... we'll see.

NFL execs vote PSU grads to be the best prepared players for life in the NFL, so it would have the opposite effect on drafting.

The advantage that McGahee has IMO is that he's younger, and he runs lower than LJ. LJ also may have some problems with fumbles because he never switches the ball to his outside arm, always carrying it in one arm.

Ignoring the injury, I think the advantage that LJ has is that he's a better receiver, is stronger and has better vision.

With the injury, I don't think McGahee recovers. If he does, the Bills should have a pretty nice run blocking line. Same with LJ if Holmes doesn't come back this year.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by D-Rocafella
In football you can win with a system QB who has no real skills (Dorsey, Fraizer, and Brady), but in hockey there is no such thing as a system goalie. You need a guy who you can depend on to stop 30 shots when the time comes. That's what Roy was and that's what Aebischer is going to be.

Brady has no real skills? I think he's a better QB than Henson, Griese or Navarre, if we compare to recent Michigan QBs. He also led his NFL to a Super Bowl while Bledsoe watched. Even if he was a product of the system in college (doubtful, since Carr played Henson a great deal of time when Brady was a senior), how do you explain his NFL success? And how do you explain the different records that he and Bledsoe had in NE?

And if you truly think Aebischer is another Roy, you are underestimating Roy (unlikely, but you are inconsistent) or overestimating Aebischer (absolutely).

You are right in one respect. Goalies aren't a product of their system (even though you did use this as an argument before). They can only be judged on how many shots they stop. And nobody, whether in the playoffs or regular season, has stopped a higher percentage of shots than Hasek.

[D-Rocafella]

All Brady does is throw screen passes and 10 yard outs all day long. If I need a QB in a 2 minute drill situation Brady is the last guy I pick. No way he's better then Henson. Like YOU said Henson started over Brady, and if it weren't for Henson's stupid baseball dreams he would be tearing it up in the NFL right now.

BTW, Brady had very little to do with the Pats winning. Chalk it up to their defense clicking, the best specail teams in the leauge that year, and a lot of luck.

[Napalm]

Originally posted by D-Rocafella
All Brady does is throw screen passes and 10 yard outs all day long. If I need a QB in a 2 minute drill situation Brady is the last guy I pick. No way he's better then Henson. Like YOU said Henson started over Brady, and if it weren't for Henson's stupid baseball dreams he would be tearing it up in the NFL right now.

BTW, Brady had very little to do with the Pats winning. Chalk it up to their defense clicking, the best specail teams in the leauge that year, and a lot of luck.

Why are we talking about this here?

[LALAFONTAINE]

Brady is the last guy you pick for a 2 min drill? Did you miss the Super Bowl two years ago? You know, the one where Brady executed perfectly on a two minute drill to put the Pats in FG position?

If the QB has very little to do with the Pats winning, then stop using wins as a criteria for a goaltender.

[D-Rocafella]

Originally posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Brady is the last guy you pick for a 2 min drill? Did you miss the Super Bowl two years ago? You know, the one where Brady executed perfectly on a two minute drill to put the Pats in FG position?

If the QB has very little to do with the Pats winning, then stop using wins as a criteria for a goaltender.

First off, the Rams set them selves up to lose playing prevent defense against New Englands offense. The first 3 plays were all little dump outs to the flat which J.R. Redmen turned into big gains. All Brady did was toss him the ball, the real work was done by Redmen. Then Brady hit Brown on a 15 yard pass, his only legit throw of the drive. Then Viniteri kicked the most clutch kick in Super Bowl history to win the game. So don't wprry, Brady didin't have to much to do with the victory.

In some cases you can chalk up a team wininng to thier system. And if everything around them is set up perfectly, then you don't need a big time QB. But in other cases a QB has done wonders for his team with his arm, and smarts.

[LALAFONTAINE]

JR Redmond had 16 YAC on that drive - hardly the difference maker. Compare his YAC with Jerry Rice's or Roger Craig's.

The difference in that game? Brady threw 0 interceptions. Brady made the proper reads on the final drive. Many QBs would have felt the pressure to move the ball downfield in a vertical manner and made a mistake - like Bledsoe. A QB not having much to do with the final drive that results in his team scoring? Sure. Whatever gets you thru the night.

Bledsoe
5-11 in 2000-1
0-2 in 2001-2

Brady
14-3 in 2001-2
9-7 in 2002-3

And Brady's the beneficiary of NE's system? Yeah, right. In terms of YPA, Bledsoe was around 6.15 those two years. Brady's? 6.6. I

FWIW, Brady's QB rating has been around 85, while Bledsoe's was around 75 in the same system too.

[D-Rocafella]

But his 16 yac got New England down the field enough that Brady's pass to Brown put them in deep field goal range.

Brady's so good that he made the Pro Bowl this year... Sorry that was Bledsoe and his 4300+ yard season.

[thegame]

Bledsoe did win the AFC Championship game in January, 02', LaLa. That should be noted.

Anyway, Brady and Bledsoe are both great QB's, but in different ways. Bledsoe is a gunner, Brady can get the most out of a more conservative style of pass offense. Both men have PROVEN they can win big games, lead their teams and inspire confidence, and both are winners overall. Niether one deserves to have his name dragged through the mud, Roc.

[D-Rocafella]

Bledsoe has been winning games for nearly 10 years now. How about we see what becomes of Brady in the next couple of seasons before we say he's better then Bledsoe. Remember, Brady dosen't exactly have the arm strength or accuracy you would want in your QB so he could fade away.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by thegame
Bledsoe did win the AFC Championship game in January, 02', LaLa. That should be noted.

Anyway, Brady and Bledsoe are both great QB's, but in different ways. Bledsoe is a gunner, Brady can get the most out of a more conservative style of pass offense. Both men have PROVEN they can win big games, lead their teams and inspire confidence, and both are winners overall. Niether one deserves to have his name dragged through the mud, Roc.

I wouldn't say either QB is great. Bledsoe definitely has a better arm, but Rob Johnson probably has better pure physical tools than either too.

As somewhat of a Steelers fan, let me tell you it wasn't Bledsoe who won it.

First, Brady started that game, and was injured. He left the game with a lead. In fact, the only TD drive the Pats had was started by Brady. Here are the drives started by Bledsoe:

3 14:01 1:06 PIT 35 4 3 Downs
3 05:11 2:01 NE 34 3 -7 Punt
3 01:29 5:17 NE 29 11 50 Field Goal
4 08:20 3:59 NE 9 9 28 Punt
4 02:41 0:26 PIT 34 4 2 Missed FG
4 02:02 2:02 50 5 15 End of Game

Twice the Pats got the ball inside the Steelers 40 but failed to score. One drive out of six was productive, and it was irrelevant to the outcome of the game, anyway.

Brady wound up with more completions and more yards passing in fewer attempts. Keep in mind that the Steelers' D schemed and designed their gameplan for Brady, not Bledsoe.

Second, the Steelers shut down the Pats' offense. But the Pats' special teams scored two TDs. Troy Brown returned a punt for a TD and they blocked a FG and returned it for a TD. The only other score the Pats had was on a Vinateiri FG.

Third, Kordell Stewart threw 3 interceptions. Both Brady and Bledsoe deserve credit in not throwing any interceptions.

[D-Rocafella]

How about the TD pass Bledsoe tossed to Patten?