Putting my Finger on why I'm disapointed

[finsrclowns]

I'm not here to bash the McGahee pick. In fact I can truly see the case for it and I won't argue it since I believe TD knows what he's doing a whole lot more than any of us do. But even though I'm over my initial shock and yes, anger, at the pick, I've had a lingering sense of disapointment and I'll tell you what it is. The FA period had filled so many holes and it appeared we were within a few players of having a chance to compete for a championship THIS YEAR that I had gotten really geared up for us filling those holes. Now before Askabry or whoever jumps on me, I know that's not how a good draft is run, and I know a guy as disciplined in the art of the draft as TD doesn't allow himself to narrow his frame down to one year, but I guess I had gotten it in my mind that TD would find a way to do both: get BPA AND fill our holes. So it's been tough for me to swallow this McGahee thing for that reason- factoring in the delay in WM's availablity and the question mark about full recovery from such an injury and the fact that we already have a Pro Bowl back, I would have taken Steinbach and penciled him in ahead of MS at RG. But I won't deny that a good piece of that reasoning is I think Steinbach would have had a bigger impact this year that WM and I know that's not really a fair way to evaluate a draft pick. But there it is. It's sorta like going out for lobster dinner and having the matridee say, "sorry, we're full tonight but come back tomorrow and we'll try to get you the best table in the house. It should be less busy then." Know what I mean?

Sorry for the ramble.:violin:

[The Beef]

Ramble on, ramble on. I think everyone here sees both sides of what's going on, and Steinbach would've been a great pick, no dobut. (Plus I'm an Iowa fan, so I would've LOVED the pick) but I think the thinkign up at OBD is the pieces are already in place. Let's nto forget what was already done in FA. The offensive line is going to be better this year, TH is going to run harder, EMO is going to have another huge year, Josh Reed is going to come in looking to prove that he's a starter in this league, our run D that was ranked 29th, is going to be top 10, we're going to get after the passer a lot more with Posey, Kelsay, MJones, Wire, Winfield and Clements, even possibly TKO and London making soem big spalshes rushing the passer. Don't be down on this draft because we didn't bring in a for sure starter with that 1st round pick, we didn't need to.

Also, WM is going to be ready this season, he's a warrior, he'll suit up.

[Mouldsie]

I'm dissapointed b/c TH is treated like a POS by our "loyal fans."

[The Beef]

Moulds, I really don't see a lot of bashing TH. The one thing anyone criticizes is the fumbling. I don't think there's a lot of anti TH sentiment, it's just lots of Pro WM stuff. I've stated that I'd love to see TH take his game to that next level, kind of like Ricky did last year. What if TH comes in with that game breakign speed RW had last year??? Then it's a whole new scenario. TH is at that NEXT level if he brings that to the table next year.

[blunted]

I like Travis Henry, I am just pretty geared up about the future of Willis McGahee, that is all.

[Mouldsie]

"Let's trade TH and wait for Willis to take over at mid-season"


there are more..... that is why I am so upset I guess.

[Pablo]

Possible Scenarios
2003, WM continues to rehab... unless his agent doesnt like the Bills offer and he goes into the 2004 draft, even healthier, and drafted higher by another team.
2004; backs up TH, while earning first-round money.
2005;Hey the kid's only 20, imagine what kind of shape he will be in by 2005 when TH's contract expires. By the 2006 season he'll be a real stud.

[finsrclowns]

Originally posted by Pablo
Possible Scenarios
2003, WM continues to rehab... unless his agent doesnt like the Bills offer and he goes into the 2004 draft, even healthier, and drafted higher by another team.
2004; backs up TH, while earning first-round money.
2005;Hey the kid's only 20, imagine what kind of shape he will be in by 2005 when TH's contract expires. By the 2006 season he'll be a real stud.

2006?? I may not have any hair left by then. If this kid isn't a star in the league WAY before that I'd have preferred a NE type deal with Baltimore and gotten a 2nd this year and a first next.

[John]

Originally posted by FRMRPATSFAN
2006?? I may not have any hair left by then

But this is the reality of the situation. We fans are dissappointed because the pick does not help the Bills right away. This is a dissappointment. But I have some faith in TD that he knows both what he got AND what he passed up. Based on considering both issues he made his call.

[BuffaloRanger]

I'm with you FMRPATSFAN and MR. Disappointment is when you don't get what you expect or hope for. We are all hoping for a SB in the next 2 years. If we win the SB with TH (I know I'm dreaming) are we going to trade him because WM is healthy again?

I'm not against the WM pick. He was supposed to go to a team with RB depth. And the Bills have that. But I think that was supposed to be a team with great RBs at the end of their careers, that they could groom WM behind. I just think it will be a distraction this year in a lot of ways.

The arguement people make is what if Leftwich fell to #23, wouldn't we have taken him? Well, as long as we are playing the what if game, what if Leftwich and Robertson fell to #23? Who would you take? The biggest need of course. So sometimes team needs should to be considered. But none of us are working for NFL teams, so no since talking about it anymore.

[1968_bills_fan]

I was thinking we might have traded McGahee for the Raider's #31 and #32 pick and then gone after Steinback (offense guard), and a safety. Maybe this was the Bills' thought and Oakland didn't pull the trigger? 4 good running backs is not a bad place to be. It is likely that one will go down during the season with an injury and then McGahee will come back in week 14 as the depth and replacement.

[Mammoth]

It's almost like we're bemoaning too much of a good thing. I think many of us would feel better if we had drafted a "reach" first rounder, because we can all handle another Erik Flowers (though none of us want one).

But we took a guy at a position where we are already rich. I myself have mixed feelings about this pick, not because I don't like Willis, but I am very comfortable with Travis being the #1 guy. If we were dealing with the same issue with receivers, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because several WR's can co-exist on one roster and be fine.

But with QBs and RBs we feel a need to designate one guy. Now if these guys are true team players, they will realize it is a benefit to have several stud RBs in the stable. If they're worried about their stats (which is understandable), this will be a concern. I like the idea of rotating fresh legs every once in a while, just like we do on defense. If we can utilize both of these guys, or give it to the hot runner when he's running well, this will be a gutsy (dare I say genius) move.

Who says you have to have a #1 runner? Why not try a 2-back set? If we're moving to a power running game, why not divvy out the punishment among 2 backs (or 3 if you count Gary) instead of having one guy take all the pounding. But again, if one guy is in the zone, let him run wild. And if he's having an off-day, or if Travis is having trouble holding onto the rock, give him some time to recoup and put Willis in there.

I like this move because all the DE/DTs the Bills really wanted were gone, no one they were willing to spend a first-rounder on, anyway. Why not get a guy who (if he recovers from his injury, a big 'if', I know) could be an incredible star in this league, instead of making an equal gamble on a player who will probably have a smaller impact, and is not such a sure thing.

I was looking at the drafts of the last 10 years or so, and it's remarkable how many busts there were, but look at the gambles that have paid off (Randy Moss, our own Thurman Thomas), and if he turns out to be another Lawrence Phillips, oh well, it's not the end of the world.

[bad radio]

I'm having a very hard time dealing with this rationally. frmrPatsfan, ramble all you want man, I think this weekend has made everyone kind of babble uncontrollably.

first, before analyzing, I think they need to sign McGahee to a backloaded contract and put him on IR immediately so that 1) he doesn't count against the cap this year, and 2) he doesn't try to go on a knee that may still be in the fragile/recovery stages as a rook - let's face it, RB depth is not a problem this year, so let's get him on the payroll and keep him from wrecking himself before he's ready to be effective.

NOW...I would have liked them to trade this pick. if McGahee is the best available at #23 in the first, that says something about the way the draft had gone and the talent left on the board. why not trade the pick to someone who wants/needs a RB for the future...ok, EVERYONE needs a RB for the future, but the Bills really didn't have to go that way This year, especially considering there's always a RB like McGahee somewhere in every draft. more often than not, he hasn't suffered a knee explosion either. TD has shown in the past that he can get great talent later in the draft, so why not trade #23 for 2 second rounders, or a first next year and a second this year, or a second and two thirds, or something?

now even with all the bitching I can do about this I can still say that I trust TD. I'm a Travis Henry fan, but if he turns out to be a guy that wants a bank-breaking contract, or can't keep the ball off the turf or whatever, I can become a Willis McGahee fan very quickly. he did hold on to the ball, after all, while his knee was exploding....

but really I hope that TD has some kind of plan in which he is able to trade one of them. it would be an incredible waste to just lose Travis to free-agency, or get nothing for a 1st round pick. overall, I'm disappointed that they traded Peerless Price for this. having trouble explaining myself as well.

just as long as they don't let him wear #2 I'll be happy.

[askabry]

I appreciate you worrying about me jumping on you. <lol>

[askabry]

by the way...I was disappointed as well when the pick was made. People ask who else would you have drafted? Well, let's see...there was Boss Bailey- who NOBODY thought would be available. There was Kwame Harris. Eric Steinback. Kelley Washington. Dallas Clark. Chris Kelsay.

And oh by the way...before you say you got Chris Kelsay as first round talent in the second...ummmmm if you HAD drafted him in the first, it would have paved the way to take Chaun Thompson in the second, or LJ Smith, or Tyrone Calico, or etc.

Any single one of those players, either the names of the first or second round, would have had tremendous rollover effects on the team. The effects of adding a presence at TE, WR or Oline would have made all aspects of the offense better.

At the end of the day, this team has a window of opportunity that is open right now. Last year, with one or two more key additions we'd have been in the playoffs. This year, the draft presented an opportunity to lift us just a little bit closer. Right now, with three-four draftees coming off an injury or being injury prone, I feel as if Tom made a move for 2004 instead of 2003.

I'm torn, too. I think Donahoe is the smartest guy in football, and damnit if he says black is blue somebody's gonna have to prove him wrong before I believe it. But this whole draft weakened my belief in him just a little bit. McGahee's a monster, no doubt. I thought this draft would be the impetus for a Super Bowl this year, not next, is all.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by askabry
by the way...I was disappointed as well when the pick was made. People ask who else would you have drafted? Well, let's see...there was Boss Bailey- who NOBODY thought would be available. There was Kwame Harris. Eric Steinback. Kelley Washington. Dallas Clark. Chris Kelsay.

And oh by the way...before you say you got Chris Kelsay as first round talent in the second...ummmmm if you HAD drafted him in the first, it would have paved the way to take Chaun Thompson in the second, or LJ Smith, or Tyrone Calico, or etc.

Any single one of those players, either the names of the first or second round, would have had tremendous rollover effects on the team. The effects of adding a presence at TE, WR or Oline would have made all aspects of the offense better.

At the end of the day, this team has a window of opportunity that is open right now. Last year, with one or two more key additions we'd have been in the playoffs. This year, the draft presented an opportunity to lift us just a little bit closer. Right now, with three-four draftees coming off an injury or being injury prone, I feel as if Tom made a move for 2004 instead of 2003.

I'm torn, too. I think Donahoe is the smartest guy in football, and damnit if he says black is blue somebody's gonna have to prove him wrong before I believe it. But this whole draft weakened my belief in him just a little bit. McGahee's a monster, no doubt. I thought this draft would be the impetus for a Super Bowl this year, not next, is all.

What player available at 23 would have helped us make a run this year? A rookie guard, a rookie DT, a rookie TE? When was the last time a rookie guard, TE, or DT put a team over the top?

I am absolutely baffled why some people wanted us to take Bailey. We have Fletcher, Spikes, and Posey; three legitimate starters in the NFL. What good would Bailey have done? It amazes me that some people are mad we draft McGahee because we already have Henry, yet we have one of the best linebacking cores in the league and some wanted us to draft a LB in round 1.

By the way, it has been well documented that Bailey is a great numbers guy but misses a lot of tackles. Why draft a LB who isn't a great tackler?

[Henry4MVP]

I'm not sure I understand your argument. No pick at all would "put a team over the top," but are you saying that a rookie that is good enough to start (i.e., a Dallas Clark, Eric Steinbach, Kelley Washington, Rashean Mathis, etc.) has less impact than a running back who likely won't play for at least half the season and then has to overcome a Pro Bowl starter?
Again, I'm not gonna argue MaGahee vs. anybody, because we won't know how this is going to turn out for awhile. But we could have had a player (or two) that impacts us more this year if we hadn't have drafted MaGahee. I don't know if that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

[Henry4MVP]

Originally posted by Ryan Butch
By the way, it has been well documented that Bailey is a great numbers guy but misses a lot of tackles. Why draft a LB who isn't a great tackler?

For the same reason you draft a running back who has had his knee blown out and can't even play for months, if not a year or more. Because he has the potential to be a great player.

[eyedog]

The pick should have been Joseph. Nobody can tell me he wouldn't be better than Edwards and Bannen as the third dt. They could have still taken Kelsay in rd. 2 or better yet Doss at ss. Who would have also probably started from day one. Or either cb Woolfolk or Davis. Either one of those two are the instant 3rd corner. Instead we have an injured rb who probably won't play at all this year and we have also pissed off our franchise running back. Not good. I think TD blew this one.

[askabry]

Originally posted by Ryan Butch
What player available at 23 would have helped us make a run this year? A rookie guard, a rookie DT, a rookie TE? When was the last time a rookie guard, TE, or DT put a team over the top?

I am absolutely baffled why some people wanted us to take Bailey. We have Fletcher, Spikes, and Posey; three legitimate starters in the NFL. What good would Bailey have done? It amazes me that some people are mad we draft McGahee because we already have Henry, yet we have one of the best linebacking cores in the league and some wanted us to draft a LB in round 1.

By the way, it has been well documented that Bailey is a great numbers guy but misses a lot of tackles. Why draft a LB who isn't a great tackler?

Okay...#1, I don't know how you get "mad" out of my post, but whatever.

#2..."best linebacking cores"??? And when did Jeff Posey move to the level of anything? He has proven nothing to me in a 4-3 defense.

#3 TE? Well, Jeromy Shockey lifted his team pretty far; I'd call him a difference maker. I'd say there were a number of DTs over the years that had more impact on their team than WM will on ours this year. (And oh by the way, WTF did I mention a DT????). Insofar as G, I project Steinback as a starting tackle, enabling the team to push JJ inside where he belongs. But that's just me.

At any rate, WM will not have an appreciable difference in the Bills 2004 season.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by Henry4MVP
I'm not sure I understand your argument. No pick at all would "put a team over the top," but are you saying that a rookie that is good enough to start (i.e., a Dallas Clark, Eric Steinbach, Kelley Washington, Rashean Mathis, etc.) has less impact than a running back who likely won't play for at least half the season and then has to overcome a Pro Bowl starter?
Again, I'm not gonna argue MaGahee vs. anybody, because we won't know how this is going to turn out for awhile. But we could have had a player (or two) that impacts us more this year if we hadn't have drafted MaGahee. I don't know if that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

Kelley Washington wold have been a #3 WR for us, as much as I liked him he would not have been ahead of Reed this year. Mathis would have been a #3 or #4 CB or he might have played FS. Dallas Clark might not have even started for us. Eric Steinbach would have competed with Sullivan for the starting guard position. There is no guarantee any of the players you mentioned would have started this year.

Teams don't make Super Bowls because of a rookie a FS (or CB), a rookie TE, or a rookie guard.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by Henry4MVP
For the same reason you draft a running back who has had his knee blown out and can't even play for months, if not a year or more. Because he has the potential to be a great player.

It is not the same reason, not even close. You draft a running back because he can run and you draft a LB who can tackle. A knock on Bailey is that he is not a great tackler. You don't draft a RB who has trouble finding the hole, but because he runs a 4.3 and is 220 pounds you take him in the first round.

You are comparing a risk due to injury to risk due to a skill required by the position. Apples and oranges.

[eyedog]

What if one of those starters goes down { Clements, Winfield, Williams, or Adams} ? We are back to Thomas at corner, a corner coming off an injury, a 4th rd. pick from a div.2 school who would have been there in the 5th or 6th rd, two backup tackles who are just that, backups.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by askabry
Okay...#1, I don't know how you get "mad" out of my post, but whatever.

#2..."best linebacking cores"??? And when did Jeff Posey move to the level of anything? He has proven nothing to me in a 4-3 defense.

#3 TE? Well, Jeromy Shockey lifted his team pretty far; I'd call him a difference maker. I'd say there were a number of DTs over the years that had more impact on their team than WM will on ours this year. (And oh by the way, WTF did I mention a DT????). Insofar as G, I project Steinback as a starting tackle, enabling the team to push JJ inside where he belongs. But that's just me.

At any rate, WM will not have an appreciable difference in the Bills 2004 season.

#2: Spikes is a Pro Bowler, Fletcher is a tackling machine, Posey had 8 sacks last year in a 3-4, but he is young, can tackle, and is athletic. It's one of the 5 best cores in the league.

#3: Show me one scouting report that compared Witten or Clark to Schockey? By the way, the Giants lost in the first round.

So you want Steinback to start at tackle for us? You want to move a guard to tackle in his rookie year to protect Bledsoe's back? How is that going to help our team's chances this year? That's a recipe for another 50 sack season.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by eyedog
The pick should have been Joseph. Nobody can tell me he wouldn't be better than Edwards and Bannen as the third dt. They could have still taken Kelsay in rd. 2 or better yet Doss at ss. Who would have also probably started from day one. Or either cb Woolfolk or Davis. Either one of those two are the instant 3rd corner. Instead we have an injured rb who probably won't play at all this year and we have also pissed off our franchise running back. Not good. I think TD blew this one.

So we are essentially drafting Joseph to be our 3rd DT on the depth chart? There was a reason Joseph's draft status fell this year, because he had a disappointing season! Why draft the #10 DL off the board in the first round?

[Henry4MVP]

Originally posted by Ryan Butch
It is not the same reason, not even close. You draft a running back because he can run and you draft a LB who can tackle. A knock on Bailey is that he is not a great tackler. You don't draft a RB who has trouble finding the hole, but because he runs a 4.3 and is 220 pounds you take him in the first round.

You are comparing a risk due to injury to risk due to a skill required by the position. Apples and oranges.

What if MaGahee doesn't have the same skills he has pre-injury? If that knee doesn't heal up properly or he gets hurt again, then he loses some of his running skills. Tackling technique can be improved by coaching. It's not as if Bailey is a terrible tackler. In fact, since he hasn't played a down in the NFL, we don't know what kind of tackler he'll be. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by eyedog
What if one of those starters goes down { Clements, Winfield, Williams, or Adams} ? We are back to Thomas at corner, a corner coming off an injury, a 4th rd. pick from a div.2 school who would have been there in the 5th or 6th rd, two backup tackles who are just that, backups.

What if Henry tears his up his knee in December? Gary and McGahee would finish out the year and McGahee would be ready to start in 2004 while Henry rehabs his knee.

[eyedog]

A third dt and a third cb are like starters. Both positions get plenty of snaps.

[Henry4MVP]

Originally posted by Ryan Butch
Kelley Washington wold have been a #3 WR for us, as much as I liked him he would not have been ahead of Reed this year. Mathis would have been a #3 or #4 CB or he might have played FS. Dallas Clark might not have even started for us. Eric Steinbach would have competed with Sullivan for the starting guard position. There is no guarantee any of the players you mentioned would have started this year.

Teams don't make Super Bowls because of a rookie a FS (or CB), a rookie TE, or a rookie guard.

Your crystal ball is better than mine. I can't tell you that any of those guys might not have started, other than Washington...probably. A #3 receiver can be an important player on a football team. Steinbach is better than Sullivan, Dallas Clark would most likely have started, and Kwame Harris was another option. We're not going to make a Super Bowl because of any selection by a rookie...I never said we were...but I did say we could have had more players that could have an impact this year, and that's true.

[MiamiMasterpiece]

Willis should be on the field before 2006 for a team. Thats unfair to him to make him wait that long.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by Henry4MVP
What if MaGahee doesn't have the same skills he has pre-injury? If that knee doesn't heal up properly or he gets hurt again, then he loses some of his running skills. Tackling technique can be improved by coaching. It's not as if Bailey is a terrible tackler. In fact, since he hasn't played a down in the NFL, we don't know what kind of tackler he'll be. We'll just have to wait and see.

If he has trouble tackling SEC running backs, how is he going to tackle Curtis Martin and Rickey Williams? Great LBs are naturally great tackles due to their talent and instict; Ray Lewis, Chris Spielman, Sam Cowart, etc.

[eyedog]

I would be shocked if WM even suits up for one game this year.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by Henry4MVP
Your crystal ball is better than mine. I can't tell you that any of those guys might not have started, other than Washington...probably. A #3 receiver can be an important player on a football team. Steinbach is better than Sullivan, Dallas Clark would most likely have started, and Kwame Harris was another option. We're not going to make a Super Bowl because of any selection by a rookie...I never said we were...but I did say we could have had more players that could have an impact this year, and that's true.

McGahee will make his impact for us this year in January, at least that is what my crystal ball tells me.

[askabry]

Originally posted by Ryan Butch
#2: Spikes is a Pro Bowler, Fletcher is a tackling machine, Posey had 8 sacks last year in a 3-4, but he is young, can tackle, and is athletic. It's one of the 5 best cores in the league.

#3: Show me one scouting report that compared Witten or Clark to Schockey? By the way, the Giants lost in the first round.

So you want Steinback to start at tackle for us? You want to move a guard to tackle in his rookie year to protect Bledsoe's back? How is that going to help our team's chances this year? That's a recipe for another 50 sack season.


Chrissakes, deal with the facts Ryan. Spikes has never been to the Pro Bowl. Posey has never played well in the 4-3 and he had two seasons to do so.

There HAVE been comparisions to Shockey; in fact, Dallas Clark had measurables far in excess of Shockey. I don't have them available, so you'll either have to trust me or not. But Clark ran better, jumped higher than Shockey.

Do I want Steinback to start at tackle for us? Yes- in an offense built around running the ball. Do you want the two crap interior linemen- Sullivan and Teague, the weakest links in our offense- we had last year trying to provide a power running game? I don't think that will work either.

In the worst case scenario, Steinbach moves inside to guard and replaces MS. Nothing wrong with that. Certainly, I thin Steinbach would contribute more to the team winning in 2003 than WM will. It remains my contention that the whole draft was about 2004, and there was an opportunity to push this team in 2003 that will have escaped us.

Maybe we'll ALSO get that push in other places; fine. Doesn't take away from what I'm saying.

[Henry4MVP]

Originally posted by Ryan Butch
If he has trouble tackling SEC running backs, how is he going to tackle Curtis Martin and Rickey Williams? Great LBs are naturally great tackles due to their talent and instict; Ray Lewis, Chris Spielman, Sam Cowart, etc.

Keep your eyes on the Boss...I'm not going to argue with ya anymore, but he's an incredible athlete, he's got instincts, his technique will improve, and barring injury he'll get plenty of chances to demonstrate his tackling on the Lions defense. :D

[finsrclowns]

Just one more thing. I said before the draft that I thought DL and OL were the top 2 priorities but that I would defer to TD and the coaches as to whether the OL needed reinforcement. Obviously they don't think the OL is a problem otherwise why wait until the 5th round to take a guy who hasn't played much in the last 4 years who has shoulders like Tony Boselli's? All I can say is Pat "golden" Ruel must be one helluva coach. I agree with Ask's take on TT and MS being the weak links on the OL. I don't want to get into the whole OL debate but suffice it to say Eric Steinbach could have started for us this year IMO. You look at the way teams are all gearing up to rush the QB, you better be able to protect him better than we did last year. We couldn't block NE last year and with the additions of Colvin and Warren they will be considerably better at rushing the passer this year. I know, another rant- can't help it, I'm still in draft mode, it will pass.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by askabry
Chrissakes, deal with the facts Ryan. Spikes has never been to the Pro Bowl. Posey has never played well in the 4-3 and he had two seasons to do so.

There HAVE been comparisions to Shockey; in fact, Dallas Clark had measurables far in excess of Shockey. I don't have them available, so you'll either have to trust me or not. But Clark ran better, jumped higher than Shockey.

Do I want Steinback to start at tackle for us? Yes- in an offense built around running the ball. Do you want the two crap interior linemen- Sullivan and Teague, the weakest links in our offense- we had last year trying to provide a power running game? I don't think that will work either.

In the worst case scenario, Steinbach moves inside to guard and replaces MS. Nothing wrong with that. Certainly, I thin Steinbach would contribute more to the team winning in 2003 than WM will. It remains my contention that the whole draft was about 2004, and there was an opportunity to push this team in 2003 that will have escaped us.

Maybe we'll ALSO get that push in other places; fine. Doesn't take away from what I'm saying.

Spikes omission from the Pro Bowl this year was because he was a Bengal. Spikes is widely considered one of the 5 best linebackers in the league. Whatever adjective you want to use to describe Spikes, it doesn't matter. He is a great player.

Find me the measurables, stats, scouting reports or Clark and then I'll believe you.

If Sullivan and Teague are so bad, how did Henry rush for 1,400 yards last year and how did Bledsoe pass for 4,000 yards?

Coming into the draft, I saw the Bills as a 10 or 11 win team, would Steinbach been able to make to push to 12 or 13 wins? I highly doubt it.

[bigdog]

Originally posted by Ryan Butch
Spikes omission from the Pro Bowl this year was because he was a Bengal. Spikes is widely considered one of the 5 best linebackers in the league. Whatever adjective you want to use to describe Spikes, it doesn't matter. He is a great player.

Find me the measurables, stats, scouting reports or Clark and then I'll believe you.

If Sullivan and Teague are so bad, how did Henry rush for 1,400 yards last year and how did Bledsoe pass for 4,000 yards?



TH ran over the top of people most of the time. There were no Ricky williams type holes last year for henry to waltz through. And he was awful effective bouncing runs to the outside aroung mike williams.

Boss would have helped on ST tremendously if nothing else a place were we have been horrible for years.

Guard and center are areas of concern on our O line regardless of what the rose colored glasses tell you ryan.

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by bigdog
TH ran over the top of people most of the time. There were no Ricky williams type holes last year for henry to waltz through. And he was awful effective bouncing runs to the outside aroung mike williams.

Boss would have helped on ST tremendously if nothing else a place were we have been horrible for years.

Guard and center are areas of concern on our O line regardless of what the rose colored glasses tell you ryan.

So draft Boss in the first round to play special teams? Nice.

Henry got 1400 yards because he is a good back and had good blocking in front of him.

Rose colored glasses? HA. You must have not been around when I was Mr. Doom and Gloom in 2001. By the way, we went 3-13 that year. I trust my insticts and knowledge about football because they are fairly accurate.

We improved our team enough in Free Agency to make a run into the playoff this year. Feel free to jump on the bandwagon at any time

[SquishDaFish]

i honestly think that TD drafte willis mcgahee in the first round to give every Bills fan something to argue about :)

[askabry]

Originally posted by Ryan Butch
Spikes omission from the Pro Bowl this year was because he was a Bengal. .

I said use facts. Fact is, Spikes has never been voted to the Pro Bowl. Fact is, Takeo Spikes has never been one to create turnovers or sacks- and as we know, turnovers leads players to the Pro Bowl.

Tell you what; you show me something that says he deserved to go the Pro Bowl. Since I can show you this...

Originally posted by Ryan Butch

Find me the measurables, stats, scouting reports or Clark and then I'll believe you.

Maybe be you've heard of draftbook?....

Tight End
Iowa
collected by draftbook.com Status: Junior
6-4/245
40: 4.85


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Murphycollected by draftbook.com
3-20-03 Iowa junior tight end Dallas Clark was named the winner of the 2002 John Mackey Award, given annually to the nation's best tight end. His recent Combine/Pro Day results are proving that to be the truth, as Clark ran 4.49/4.52 at his Pro Day on Monday, while having 37.5" vertical, 3.85 in the short shuttle, 6.33 3-cone, and 10'7" broad jump. His vertical, short shuttle and 40-times are among the best recorded at his position in recent memory for a tight end, including last year's results for NFL Rookie of the Year Jeremy Shockey (Giants). Clark's numbers put him in a category by himself



Originally posted by Ryan Butch

If Sullivan and Teague are so bad, how did Henry rush for 1,400 yards last year and how did Bledsoe pass for 4,000 yards.

Did you honestly believe Henry made his yards between those two players? Can you dispute that they were the two weakest links on the offense???

Originally posted by Ryan Butch

Coming into the draft, I saw the Bills as a 10 or 11 win team, would Steinbach been able to make to push to 12 or 13 wins? I highly doubt it. .

You have a narrow view of the draft, Ryan- as if one pick alone makes the change. But in reality, selecting McGahee precluded other picks later in the draft. By selecting a RB in the first, instead of a DLineman or other player, we were in a position to ONLY draft a Dlineman in the second.

It precluded the choice of a WR or TE in the second; precluded the choice a different player one selection later. McGahee's selection wasn't the choice between Steinbach or McGahee; or Clark or Kelsay. It creates a domino effect to the entire draft. In the fourth, perhaps you don't take Aiken if you've already selected Kelley Washington or Dallas Clark to upgrade the offense.

And in the end, my post points to all the picks Tom Donahoe made- which includes picks like Sobieski. Maybe Sobieski outplays Steinbach and I'm wrong.

But there is no doubt that a player likely to be on PUP list in October will have less positive impact this year than any other selection we might have made. And one win can be a huge difference. Just ask NE or MIA what might have happened for one more win.

[finsrclowns]

"But there is no doubt that a player likely to be on PUP list in October will have less positive impact this year than any other selection we might have made. And one win can be a huge difference. Just ask NE or MIA what might have happened for one more win."

No doubt. It's hard to believe our division this year WON'T come down to one game either way.

[shawn]

Originally posted by bigdog
Guard and center are areas of concern on our O line regardless of what the rose colored glasses tell you ryan.

Sullivan may have been the most consistent lineman on the Bills last season next to Rueben. When did he become a player to be concerned about? I guess everyone had rose-colored glasses on when watching Mike Williams play last season.

I remember last year when people were complaining after Josh Reed was taken because fans felt he didn't fill a “need” position. How many inferior names were thrown around one year ago? The Kwame Harris, Eric Steinback, Kelley Washington, Dallas Clark, and Chris Kelsay’s of the world are not in the same league as McGahee.

[askabry]

Exactly what league is McGahee in? He's in the injured-and-I-can't-play-for-awhile league.

All the other guys you mention will likely be playing on the football field in September and October. Can't be the world's best from the sidelines.

[shawn]

I’m glad the Bills GM has more foresight then you do. Donahoe realizes with this teams cap situation that the June 1st cuts will provide more assistance to this team than any of the average rookies in the draft. He took the player who is going to help this team the most in his tenure not an average player who makes the PR a trouble-free job for the organization.

[Zan186]

I think people are missing the purpose of the draft. The draft is now looked at as a means to get young undeveloped players with a few who can be plugged in at the start of the season to upgrade a team. Free Agency is what is now used to plug up holes and make adjustments for the season.
I was rather shocked that we grabed a RB in the first round but after reading about how this kid would of been a top 4 prospect if he didnt tear up his knee, I believe TD got a steal getting him at 23rd pick.
As for the Travis Henry or WM debate, who cares we will have the best one playing for us. Travis is one of the top backs in the league, if WM is better than hell we should be thrilled. Truth of the matter is most teams want two good backs. Backs get hurt every other year with knee or shoulder injuries. Bills now have solid depth at RB. Also I don't think WM will be in game shape to really play this year anyways.
One last note of importance. We were not even supposed to have a 1st round pick! Our 1st round pick this year was Bledsoe! We traded Price for a 1st round pick next year. We drafted Josh Reed so that we could get that 1st round pick next year (WM).

[Ryan Butch]

Originally posted by askabry


Tell you what; you show me something that says he deserved to go the Pro Bowl. Since I can show you this...



http://www.sportingnews.com/voices/dan_pompei/20020103.html

"The Pro Bowl isn’t like the Super Bowl, where the most deserving go. In fact, there are many players who deserve to go to the Pro Bowl who aren’t this season.

Here are the top 10 oversights:

10. Takeo Spikes, MLB, Bengals. It’s easy to overlook the entire roster in Cincinnati, but this guy is the heart and soul of the Bengals’ defense, and he really is a fine player who took another step this year. If he were playing in Chicago or New York or many other cities, he would be a Pro Bowl regular. "

Enjoy.

[Ryan Butch]

By the way, Ask, you yourself called Spikes a "Tier one player". Hmmm.

"If you are concerned about the guys productivity, perhaps you should compare him to Sam Cowart. His turnover numbers are superior in almost every regard, and I believe the players came out the same draft.

Spikes has never been injured, and played for a bad team. He's a quality player, tier one."

http://www.buffalorange.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=320802#post320802

[Zan186]

The probowl is influenced a lot by fan voting not necessarily by who is deserving. I can honestly say that if Spikes played for a team other than the Bungles or even Detroit he would of been to the pro bowl several times.
Another thing that you have to look at is who is Spikes playing with? Does he have two dominant DT's keeping the Center off him? Who else on the defense on the BUngles were game planned for. Spikes was the whole team defensively. Spikes was like LT for the Giants. Just factor in that the Giants had a few other decent players, while the Bungles just pretty much suck all the way around.
Posey is a different kind of player. I dont think he is a probowl guy but I think he will be an excellent player for the BIlls. Fletcher in the right cast can be a pro bowl player for he has all the tools.
Back to the Running Back debate. How about this for a theory!
What if WM is the next coming of Walter Payton? Would you sacrifice a 1st round pick not playing this entire year if he turned out to be like Payton? Everything I have read says he has the tools to be better than Payton. Faster, Bigger, Stronger and he can cut on a dime too! Would you take the risk knowing that Priest Holmes had a similar injury and lead the NFL last year?
Or would you go with scenario number 2 and take a Defensive tackle that has a rap for being an underachiever. Sure he will be a starter but he won't be a Ted Washington in the middle.
I kind of like the first scenrario and I think that is what TD was thinking when he drafted him. There is always big IF's in the NFL. Hell if Frank had the laces facing the right direction Buffalo might of won a Super Bowl!
One last note who is the idiot who is criticizing Sullivan? Are you Blind? Of all of the offensive linemen the bills have Sullivan was the best run blocker we have. I like everyone else wea watching for Big Mike to level people and so I was really focused on that side of the line. Sullivan was blowing people off the line and opening holes that my grandmother could run through. As for Teague well he snaps the ball ! Nuff said! I would like to see a bigger meaner guy at Center but he is adequate.
Lastly, it really doesnt matter who runs the ball, it is not your running back that makes the biggest difference it is the Offensive line that determines how good your back is.
For example Emmit Smith is a good running back, but 90% of his yards came when he had the best offensive line ever assembeled in front of him. Hell Drew Bledsoe could of ran for 5 yards a carry with those elephants up front. Now there are a few backs in history that had crap for an O-Line and still were impressive. Like the best running back ever Barry Sanders. Barry had no line and he tore up defenses. OJ I didnt kill my wife is another who had raw talent to make things happen.
Henry is a great back but he is not in the same league as OJ or Sanders. Willie has the tools to be one of those backs. That is what you gamble for.