Trade with the Canucks

[LALAFONTAINE]

The Canucks had several young, cheap, gritty players:
Cooke
Letowski
Ruutu

They also have a decent, cheap RD who can play on the PP:
Sopel

They also have decent prospects:
Allen
2003 1st rounder

I'm not sure how much salary Vancouver would consider adding, but here's a proposal:

Cooke $450
Letowski $750
Ruutu $425
Sopel $550
1st rounder

for

Zhitnik $3,550
Barnes $2,800
Dumont $1,100

Barnes replaces Cooke's PK for Vancouver, but adds scoring. Zhitnik gives Vancouver and upgrade over Sopel, and Dumont gives Vancouver an upgrade over Letowski. Ruutu doesn't play much. Vancouver adds some valuable playoff experience. He and the 1st rounder make up the difference for the three regulars switching places.

For the Sabres, the addition of Cooke, Letowski and Ruutu allow the Sabres to get rid of Brown and Varada in subsequent deals. It allows the Sabres to get rid of $7.45M in salary and get back just $2.175M. We finally have a real RD in addition to Warrener, which addresses a weakness of ours. We get some youth.

This would leave the Sabres needing to drop Satan, Gratton, Brown, Varada and Noronen, which would drop over $9M in salary.

[Jim Bob]

May I suggest not posting that in HF.com's Trade Forum.

It's great for the Sabres. But there is no way in hell that the Nucks would make that deal.

The Nucks want to dump Ruutu, but I'd be shocked if they moved Cooke. He's their version of Adam Mair.

You might be able to get them to bite on something like Varada for Ruutu and a 5th.........

[Forum21]

They're giving up on Ruutu way too early. It's kind of like everyone giving up on Connolly.

[bduff54]

great idea but its only a dream, why in gods name would the canucks want any of those players?

[Jim Bob]

Originally posted by jj@jj.com
They're giving up on Ruutu way too early. It's kind of like everyone giving up on Connolly.

Jarkko Ruutu turns 28 in August. He's been called the Ogie Oglethorpe of Finland. He's not going to develop into anything offensively. And he's nothing like Connolly.

Perhaps you are thinking of his younger brother Tuomo Ruutu who is a highly thought of Blackhawks prospect.

[Thumper]

I think a number of teams would want a Stu Barnes on their roster. Which is why I don't want to deal him away at least until he plays a season under a new coach. I want to have all of the working parts in order for when a new coach gets in here. Most likely the beginning of next year. The team has stayed the same for the entire season....There's zero reasons to change it at this point. We're on pace for a top 2 draft pick. Might as well keep it that way now.

A new coach with fresh new idea's and a new type of work ethic may be just what the Doctor ordered for this team. He won't just magically make our players better players, but he may be able to bring out a bit more in each of them.

A trade here and a trade there is still necessary, but moving out the entire core is not something that the Sabres will do, nor should do. It's a bit drastic to trade Barnes, Gratton, Satan, as well as 3 or 4 other players.

[Forum21]

Originally posted by Jim Bob

Perhaps you are thinking of his younger brother Tuomo Ruutu who is a highly thought of Blackhawks prospect.

ahh.. yes I am. I thought he was in the Vancouver system.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Jim Bob
May I suggest not posting that in HF.com's Trade Forum.

It's great for the Sabres. But there is no way in hell that the Nucks would make that deal.

The Nucks want to dump Ruutu, but I'd be shocked if they moved Cooke. He's their version of Adam Mair.

You might be able to get them to bite on something like Varada for Ruutu and a 5th.........

Too late! Let the ridicule come my way. I agree that it is probably too much to give up.

Cooke is much more than Adam Mair, but a similar style of player.

The one positive it does give for the Canucks is that it sets them up for a Cup run. The big negative is the cost involved.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by bduff54
great idea but its only a dream, why in gods name would the canucks want any of those players?

Because Barnes and Zhitnik have tons of playoff experience, having been to the SCF (unlike the Leafs) twice each. Vancouver is set up to make a run in the playoffs. That's when you pull the trigger. If I were the Canucks, however, I wouldn't do this deal. Their weakness lies between the pipes. Burke doesn't think so, and he's got every right to watch the WCF on TV.

Dumont addresses a need that Burke mentioned, to acquire secondary scoring.

In terms of overall players, Zhitnik is better than Sopel and Barnes is an upgrade over Cooke. Dumont is better than Letowski. That's why they would want those players. They can give up Ruutu, because they aren't playing him. A 2003 1st rounder won't make any difference to how the Canucks perform in the playoffs this year.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Thumper
I think a number of teams would want a Stu Barnes on their roster. Which is why I don't want to deal him away at least until he plays a season under a new coach. I want to have all of the working parts in order for when a new coach gets in here. Most likely the beginning of next year. The team has stayed the same for the entire season....There's zero reasons to change it at this point. We're on pace for a top 2 draft pick. Might as well keep it that way now.

A new coach with fresh new idea's and a new type of work ethic may be just what the Doctor ordered for this team. He won't just magically make our players better players, but he may be able to bring out a bit more in each of them.

A trade here and a trade there is still necessary, but moving out the entire core is not something that the Sabres will do, nor should do. It's a bit drastic to trade Barnes, Gratton, Satan, as well as 3 or 4 other players.

There is plenty of reasons to change it. First, we dump salary, which keeps the Sabres afloat until 2004.

Second, the Sabres won't do anything until a new CBA agreement gets in place. So deal everyone over 25. When you CAN compete, you will be competing with a young, talented team with upside. More importantly, the team will have a miniscule salary, and can actually get a free agent or two. If we keep those players, they will be lesser players. They will be more expensive and tougher to move. And you won't get anything for them.

Third, it is obvious that Barnes, Gratton and Satan are replaceable. We are the worst team in the NHL with them. Why not get younger players with better upsides? We can get a lot of prospects and draft choices for these guys. It sets us up nicely for the new CBA and the future.

[Player6600]

There is no way they would trade Sopel

[eman77]

Ruff would never make a trade that big

[eman77]

Let me rephrase that, Regier would never make a trade that big.

[fweber73]

[/QUOTE] There is plenty of reasons to change it. First, we dump salary, which keeps the Sabres afloat until 2004.

Bankruptcy ensures that the new owners, whomever and wherever they be, get a clean slate to start with. There is no need to dump salaries until the team is purchased. None of the Sabres better players will be going anywhere until new ownership arrives. If they did, the value of the team would fall making it less atractive to prospective buyers.

[bduff54]

who gives a crap if zhitnik has been to the SCF's he is useless at this point in his career!

[fweber73]

I don't think Zhitnik is useless... in the right situation. He is a very attractive player for a cup contender. Possibly the Wings or Flyers.

[bduff54]

let me ge this straight. Zhitnik is not good enough to perform for the Buffalo Sabres but a team like the flyers or Wings would love to have him? What are you talking about!

[Thumper]

LALA - I agree with a few things you are saying here. But trading our only true finisher in Satan for a couple younger guys with possible upsides just makes me think of Peca for Connolly and Pyatt....And Connolly and Pyatt are two guys that you couldn't get for just Satan. Peca is more of a complete player than Satan.

We traded Primeau, Holzinger, and Sarich for Gratton. That was when Gratton was probably worth a bit more than he is now because he was a few years younger then. You want another Holzinger or Primeau type in here for him? No thanks. I'll take Gratton over both of those guys on his worst day. The only true commodity we lost for Grats was Sarich. And he's turned into at best an average 4th or 5th d-man.

It's a very touchy subject when it comes to dealing away your core players for young guys that may never pan out. Your better off drafting well than dealing away anybody decent you have on your roster every few years, like the Sabres have done for a long time now. They can't draft well, so they've got a big problem on their hands. Hopefully, if and when the new owner comes in here, he cleans house from the GM, to the scouts, to the coach.

You can't trade your entire team away....The quickest possible fix is a coaching change and a tweak here and their in the trade spectrum.

[Jim Bob]

Originally posted by LALAFONTAINE
Too late! Let the ridicule come my way. I agree that it is probably too much to give up.

Cooke is much more than Adam Mair, but a similar style of player.

The one positive it does give for the Canucks is that it sets them up for a Cup run. The big negative is the cost involved.

The other negative is giving up on the future for a Cup run when the Nucks aren't even in the top 4 in their own conference. Burke is way too smart to make a deal like this.

The Nucks best hope for a cup isn't this year or next year, but post-2004 when the high priced teams like Detroit, Colorado, and Dallas will likely have to rebuild either because core guys are retiring or a cap makes them dismantle their teams.

The plan of action in Vancouver should be to make the Cup run the first year after the 2004 CBA war as guys like Bertuzzi, Naslund, and Jovo-cop will still be in their primes and the young guys will be more seasoned.

Now isn't the time for the Nucks to go balls to the wall for a Cup run. Leave that to teams like Philly, Dallas, Detroit, and Colorado.

[bduff54]

i disagree jim bob, Vancouver can play with any of those teams, especially philly. Have you watched the canucks play this year? They can beat any of those teams in a 7 game series!

[Forum21]

Originally posted by fweber73


Bankruptcy ensures that the new owners, whomever and wherever they be, get a clean slate to start with. [/QUOTE]

This just isn't true. The new owners/ purchaser will need to satisify the creditors through bankruptcy proceedings. This can either be in the form of cash or in the form of assuming some of the debt owed via credit. Either way this affects the priced payed for the team and directly, the product seen on the ice.

[Jim Bob]

Originally posted by bduff54
i disagree jim bob, Vancouver can play with any of those teams, especially philly. Have you watched the canucks play this year? They can beat any of those teams in a 7 game series!

They can play with them in the regular season. I'm still not sold on the fact that the Canucks are a big time threat in the post season.

And the package of Sabres isn't going to make a huge difference. Heck, it might actually hurt the chemistry on the team.

[fweber73]

Originally posted by bduff54
let me ge this straight. Zhitnik is not good enough to perform for the Buffalo Sabres but a team like the flyers or Wings would love to have him? What are you talking about!

What I'm talking about is supporting cast. Zhitnik wouldn't have to cover for Kalinin every 10 seconds or Tallinder every other shift in Philly or Motown. This would free him up to make up ice rushes without a goal being scored against his team. He didn't have to worry about that as much when Smehlik was here. Also, he would have better goal scorers to pass to and better playmakers to set him up when he follows the rush. Zhitnik would be a great pick-up for anybody making a cup run. The question is, will they want him after this season???

[sfoote]

Bduff you're comment about Zhitnik shows you know nothing about hockey or any sport for that matter. Sometimes a a player can change teams and perform much better with the new team than he did with his former team. Take Woolley for example, he sucked in Buffalo, I'm glad the Sabres got rid of him, but he's playing well now on a better team. For whatever reason Zhitnik isn't playing well right now, maybe he's pissed about something, but if does get traded to a Detroit or a Philly, watch and see how much his game improves.

[bduff54]

sfoote it is obvious you hate me so i take what you say with a grain of salt. Zhitnik hasn't been good in years, the guy is getting old and it shows, in my opinion is almost worthless in this league!

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by fweber73
What I'm talking about is supporting cast. Zhitnik wouldn't have to cover for Kalinin every 10 seconds or Tallinder every other shift in Philly or Motown. This would free him up to make up ice rushes without a goal being scored against his team. He didn't have to worry about that as much when Smehlik was here. Also, he would have better goal scorers to pass to and better playmakers to set him up when he follows the rush. Zhitnik would be a great pick-up for anybody making a cup run. The question is, will they want him after this season???

And he would likely get to play on LD, which would further increase his value.

Right now, Zhitnik's value would be as a #2 defenseman. He will be viewed as a #1 defenseman soon after he's dealt. If we got a RD to pair with Zhitnik, we could have reaped this benefit.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by bduff54
sfoote it is obvious you hate me so i take what you say with a grain of salt. Zhitnik hasn't been good in years, the guy is getting old and it shows, in my opinion is almost worthless in this league!

Getting old? He's 30. What does that say about the Leafs roster?

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Jim Bob
They can play with them in the regular season. I'm still not sold on the fact that the Canucks are a big time threat in the post season.

And the package of Sabres isn't going to make a huge difference. Heck, it might actually hurt the chemistry on the team.

They have two weaknesses in the playoffs: goaltending and secondary scoring.

I agree with your second point about the trade. I wouldn't make the deal, but it worth floating it out there. It didn't get trashed nearly as badly as I expected from the Canucks fans at hockeysfuture.

[fweber73]

The canucks remind me a bit of the Senators... I don't think they have enough grit throughout the lineup to last through four playoff rounds. Some guys do, but not enough.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Thumper
LALA - I agree with a few things you are saying here. But trading our only true finisher in Satan for a couple younger guys with possible upsides just makes me think of Peca for Connolly and Pyatt....And Connolly and Pyatt are two guys that you couldn't get for just Satan. Peca is more of a complete player than Satan.

We traded Primeau, Holzinger, and Sarich for Gratton. That was when Gratton was probably worth a bit more than he is now because he was a few years younger then. You want another Holzinger or Primeau type in here for him? No thanks. I'll take Gratton over both of those guys on his worst day. The only true commodity we lost for Grats was Sarich. And he's turned into at best an average 4th or 5th d-man.

It's a very touchy subject when it comes to dealing away your core players for young guys that may never pan out. Your better off drafting well than dealing away anybody decent you have on your roster every few years, like the Sabres have done for a long time now. They can't draft well, so they've got a big problem on their hands. Hopefully, if and when the new owner comes in here, he cleans house from the GM, to the scouts, to the coach.

You can't trade your entire team away....The quickest possible fix is a coaching change and a tweak here and their in the trade spectrum.

I think you could get similar value for Satan as you did for Peca. Satan has two advantages on Peca, he generates 20 more points per year and he's healthier. Does it make up the difference of everything else Peca brings? Maybe, maybe not. I think he's a reasonable benchmark.

You can think of Peca for Connolly and Pyatt, or Mogilny for Peca, McKee and Wilson - which turned out to be Connolly, Pyatt, McKee, Warrener and Miller.

I think it's worth the risk. Suck for the next few years, when the drafts are strong, and then get a ton of prospects for years to come. My fear isn't so much as fearing a repeat of the Peca trade, but of Bowman's first housecleaning. I think he just picked the wrong chemistry for the team. Besides, this team ain't going anywhere right now.

We don't draft badly. Everyone says we do, but provides no evidence, except in isolated instances - which is like proving something with anecdotal evidence. For every Konkussionov we draft, you can point to a Ryan Miller. If Ryan Miller was taken in the 1st round and Konkussionov was a busted 5th rounder, nobody would be talking about it.

This team does not need a tweak or a coaching change as a proxy for player movement. We are in last place. We need a serious restructuring.

But we can't compete now, given the CBA. We may be able to, once the CBA is renegotiated. And we need to be able to get to 2004. Dumping salaries and getting prospects helps both ways.

I think the Sabres, stocked with young prospects and draft choices, would be a serious contender in the post 2004 era. We would be able to add to our young talent with castoffs from teams over the cap.

[bduff54]

the leafs are old, i thought we were discussing the sabres. Zhitnik is an old 30. i belive this is his 10th year in the league. He is useless and you all know it.

[Thumper]

LALA - Again....A lot of good points. But I think the talent on this team is better than our record shows. There is no way a team with this roster talent in guys like Satan, Gratton, Barnes, Warrener, McKee, Brown, a possible rookie of the year in Kotalik, and a few young players with possibly tremendous upsides in Pyatt and Connolly, not to mention the younger guys on defense, should be last place in the entire league. Aren't the Sabres already in that stage your are talking about? That rebuilding overhaul? This might be the beginning of it already....We're the 2nd youngest team in the league.....Once Patrick and Ray retire, we probably will be the youngest team in the league.

There's got to be a few guys that remain to hold the core together. We can't put an AHL team on the ice, through trades for prospects and draft picks, and expect them to just mold into Stanley Cup Champs with no one older than 25 to lead the way.

So who do you keep? The guys that are still producing relativley well throughout all of this bull***** this year. Either producing on the score board (Satan, Gratton), defensivley (McKee, Warrener...although they still can be much better) or characture wise (Mair, Boulton).

Then you've got a bunch of 'young all-stars' on this team....Kotalik, Connolly, Pyatt, Tallinder, Miller. Probably should keep all of them......What you get in a trade will just be younger versions of them. What would that do for us besides set us back another few years yet again?

We're rebuilding right now, LALA. It's just a matter of who stays and who goes.....Not everyone can go. But the Coach can. And a handful of the players. But most of this years roster will remain intact.

[Thumper]

bduff - If he's so worthless, why did he almost make the all-star team AGAIN this year? He doesn't deserve it, but he carries enough clout around the league to get the votes. We'll see what team picks him up. It will be a top tier team like the Wings, Flyers, Blues, whatever. Someone who needs a good skating puck moving defeseman. He's valuable in that catergory. And he can play 25-30 minutes a game.

You'll see. He'll get traded either at the deadline or next season....You make it sound as if he'd clear waivers......

[bduff54]

all-star??? who are you kidding. that guy is no more an all-star than tiie domi!

[LALAFONTAINE]

Zhitnik is better than any Leaf defenseman. I'll take him before Kaberle or McCabe any day. I'm not saying he's more trade value than either. He has about the same as McCabe, and less than Kaberle. He's a better player.

Quoth Duff:
"the leafs are old, i thought we were discussing the sabres. Zhitnik is an old 30. i belive this is his 10th year in the league. He is useless and you all know it."

You are generalizing that Zhitnik is useless because he is old. This is ignorant. The first thing that goes on a player is his legs. If you weren't myopic, you might notice that Zhitnik can still fly.

The same must apply to Queefs, notably:

Sundin: older than Zhitnik, more years in league
Mogilny: older than both, and he smokes, which speeds up aging
Same with Renberg, Reichel, Svehla, Hoglund, DOMI, Green, Fitzgerald, Lumme, Corson, Belfour and Kidd. I guess they all suck too.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by bduff54
all-star??? who are you kidding. that guy is no more an all-star than tiie domi!

Was Domi in the All Star game last year? Zhitnik was. Lordy! Domi's older than Zhitnik!

[fweber73]

If fighting skills or dirty hits :sukrpnch: were a factor, Domi might make the All-Star team. At least Zhitnik would have a chance to make it on hockey skills.

[bduff54]

oh my god, Zhitnik over kaberle???????? someone please talk some sense into this boy!

[bduff54]

Explain to me why zhitnik has hardly any goals this year?

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Thumper
LALA - Again....A lot of good points. But I think the talent on this team is better than our record shows. There is no way a team with this roster talent in guys like Satan, Gratton, Barnes, Warrener, McKee, Brown, a possible rookie of the year in Kotalik, and a few young players with possibly tremendous upsides in Pyatt and Connolly, not to mention the younger guys on defense, should be last place in the entire league. Aren't the Sabres already in that stage your are talking about? That rebuilding overhaul? This might be the beginning of it already....We're the 2nd youngest team in the league.....Once Patrick and Ray retire, we probably will be the youngest team in the league.

There's got to be a few guys that remain to hold the core together. We can't put an AHL team on the ice, through trades for prospects and draft picks, and expect them to just mold into Stanley Cup Champs with no one older than 25 to lead the way.

So who do you keep? The guys that are still producing relativley well throughout all of this bull***** this year. Either producing on the score board (Satan, Gratton), defensivley (McKee, Warrener...although they still can be much better) or characture wise (Mair, Boulton).

Then you've got a bunch of 'young all-stars' on this team....Kotalik, Connolly, Pyatt, Tallinder, Miller. Probably should keep all of them......What you get in a trade will just be younger versions of them. What would that do for us besides set us back another few years yet again?

We're rebuilding right now, LALA. It's just a matter of who stays and who goes.....Not everyone can go. But the Coach can. And a handful of the players. But most of this years roster will remain intact.

I agree that the talent is better than our record shows. But I don't think we're at that stage. I am all for keeping one great vet on the blueline, one great forward and one great goalie. I would actually be more inclined to deal McKee (contract considerations aside) than Zhitnik - especially since Zhitnik is not being utilized properly - for this reason. In goal, we aren't set yet, so deal Noronen, who apparently has value in the eyes of 14 GMs who have nothing better to do than respond to THN. Keep Miller and Biron, and then deal the lesser goaltender. I think Miller will be the one who is kept. At forward, I don't see any keeper. Satan and Gratton? Neither has 20 goals yet. If they were the leaders this team needs, we wouldn't be so pathetic right now. In any case, not one of Satan, Gratton, Barnes, Brown, Zhitnik, Varada or Noronen is an elite player. For us to compete year in and year out, we need several elite players. We may be able to keep such players in a new CBA. Our best chance to get such a player? Suck for these years, and acquire prospects and high draft picks. Those players I mentioned are probably our best shot at acquiring those pieces. If I look at the Sabres in 2004-5, this is the roster I see:

Pyatt Connolly Kotalik
Hecht Roy Dumont
Paille Gaustad Pominville

Tallinder Warrener
McKee VOID
Kalinin VOID

Miller
Biron

I left Ballard and Campbell off because they are LD. I see a team here that lacks depth at RD (still). I see a team that lacks elite talent, even if Connolly and Pyatt pan out (unless they surprise me by turning into Bertuzzi and Naslund).

Now, suppose we address D and deal McKee and Dumont for Komisarek and Hainsey. Instantly, we are better, and our defense looks pretty damn good: very mobile, physical with 2 PP QB types.

Then deal Satan, Gratton, Barnes, Zhitnik, etc. for prospects and picks:

[GRATTON/SATAN/BARNES/ZHITNIK-TRADES/PICKS]
Pyatt Connolly Kotalik
Hecht Roy Pominville
Paille Gaustad McMorrow

Tallinder Warrener
Kalinin Komisarek
Ballard Hainsey

Miller
Biron

In that time, suppose we deal Biron for a top scoring winger (Drury/Deadmarsh type, for example), and sign a cheap backup goalie.
That leaves us:

[BIRON/GRATTON/SATAN/BARNES/ZHITNIK-TRADES/PICKS]
Pyatt Connolly Kotalik
Hecht Roy Pominville
Paille Gaustad McMorrow

Tallinder Warrener
Ballard Komisarek
Kalinin Hainsey

Miller
FA

The only thing that team needs is two other elite players on the top line. We have our own next two draft choices. Let's deal Satan, Gratton, Zhitnik, Barnes and whoever else to get high picks and prospects to ensure more chances that three of these prospects pan out.

Then you tweak. Because my expectations of who develops is most certainly not going to happen. Then you address the shortcomings, as Regier has failed to do.

Why don't I see Satan, Gratton, Zhitnik, Barnes on the Sabres in two years? They will be UFA. We don't have a core that their presence is holding together right now.

Most of the roster won't be here in two years. In fact, my thoughts are that 8 of the current roster stays - including my two favorites, Zhitnik and Varada. That naturally happens. What these players have in common is that they played for the Sabres two years ago, but don't anymore:
Audette
Heinze
Gilmour
Andreychuk
Rasmussen
Woolley
Smehlik
Tsyplakov
Hasek

[bduff54]

Sabres are in big trouble. they need a star!

[fweber73]

Sabres do need a star. We won't get one until after CBA '04. Even if we could go get one right now, they wouldn't be able to do it all themselves (case in point... Satan. top notch skills, no acompanyment).

[fweber73]

Originally posted by bduff54
Explain to me why zhitnik has hardly any goals this year?

See my previous comments... no supporting cast. He has too much on his plate. He is relied upon to "train" Kalinin and Tallinder, who do not play the same style of game as he does. He is forced to pick up the slack when they make mistakes which leaves no room for offense. Granted, he's blown some chances to score, especially this year. I think if he is traded, which seems inevitable to me, the weight will be lifted and he'll start to score again. Everyone knows that confidence is a huge factor in a players' performance.

[Thumper]

bduff - You have to read my posts with a bit more attention or something. I never said Zhitnik was an all-star. I never said that I thought he should be an all-star. All I said is that he lead a ton of eastern conference d-men in all-star voting and actually almost made it to the all-star game AGAIN. He's not an elite d-man anymore. He's not deserving of an all-star ballot at all. But he seems to get one every year.

[Thumper]

LALA -

Pyatt Connolly Kotalik
Hecht Roy Pominville
Paille Gaustad McMorrow

You're seeing our future lineup in only 2 years with Jochen Hecht as our oldest forward, and right now he's only 25. You haven't even seen Pominville, Paille, Gaustad, or McMorrow play one game in the NHL. Forgive me if I seem a bit unbelieving at this point. Not one player from outside the organization at this current time will be a starting forward on our roster in 2 years? There won't be one trade from now through 2 years that brings in any starting forward from a different NHL team?

You must have been really excited about our draft over the last few years.

And why does Zhitnik stay over guys like Satan, Barnes, and Gratton? I promise you, Zhitnik will be dealt either at the trading deadline this year, or during next season when ownership is in place. He hasn't done anything latley to merit staying. And if we're trading everyone else before him, there's something seriously wrong with whoever the GM is next season.

If you're going to spend around 4 million on one player on this current Sabres roster, who would it be? Satan or Zhitnik?

If we took a vote on this board, Satan would win in a land slide. You would probably be the one voter for Zhitnik.

I can respect your opinon, but he's just not worth that much to our team anymore. All I'm skeptical of is Ruff, however. After hearing player after player leave here and bad mouth Ruff, it really makes me wonder if anyone on the team really likes him or respects him anymore. Woolley, Kozlov, Andreychuck, Gilmour. All producing pretty well in different organizations. Maybe Zhitnik is sick of him with the rest of the team....I'd like to see what a new coach can do with this roster before we make any MEGA changes....But that probably won't happen either because Ruff is gone after this year. That's another promise.

[bduff54]

all-star means jack, vicne carter made the all-star team this year and only playd 10 games. Fans see a name they recognize and vote for him. I stil can;t believe the Kaberle comment. If even player6600 will back me up with that one!

[Player6600]

I have to agree with duffy on this one. Kaberle is one of the premier defenseman in the NHL and he's only about 22(?). The guy is a great skater with lots of patience. He reminds me of a Lidstrom on the offensive side. Defensively he's average but you have to remember that defenseman peak late so this he will improve on. It was a mockery to me thathe didn't make the all-star game.

[Thumper]

Well I would take Kaberle over Zhitnik any day at this point of their careers.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Thumper
LALA -

Pyatt Connolly Kotalik
Hecht Roy Pominville
Paille Gaustad McMorrow

You're seeing our future lineup in only 2 years with Jochen Hecht as our oldest forward, and right now he's only 25. You haven't even seen Pominville, Paille, Gaustad, or McMorrow play one game in the NHL. Forgive me if I seem a bit unbelieving at this point. Not one player from outside the organization at this current time will be a starting forward on our roster in 2 years? There won't be one trade from now through 2 years that brings in any starting forward from a different NHL team?

You must have been really excited about our draft over the last few years.

And why does Zhitnik stay over guys like Satan, Barnes, and Gratton? I promise you, Zhitnik will be dealt either at the trading deadline this year, or during next season when ownership is in place. He hasn't done anything latley to merit staying. And if we're trading everyone else before him, there's something seriously wrong with whoever the GM is next season.

If you're going to spend around 4 million on one player on this current Sabres roster, who would it be? Satan or Zhitnik?

If we took a vote on this board, Satan would win in a land slide. You would probably be the one voter for Zhitnik.

I can respect your opinon, but he's just not worth that much to our team anymore. All I'm skeptical of is Ruff, however. After hearing player after player leave here and bad mouth Ruff, it really makes me wonder if anyone on the team really likes him or respects him anymore. Woolley, Kozlov, Andreychuck, Gilmour. All producing pretty well in different organizations. Maybe Zhitnik is sick of him with the rest of the team....I'd like to see what a new coach can do with this roster before we make any MEGA changes....But that probably won't happen either because Ruff is gone after this year. That's another promise.

1. Which players bad mouthed Ruff? Woolley? He was on waivers, which he forgets. Gilmour? He hasn't played any better in Montreal than he has here. Kozlov? I thought he criticized Buffalo, not Ruff. Andreychuk or Peca? I haven't heard anything. Hell, Andreychuk wanted to stay in Buffalo. Patrick wanted to stay in Buffalo. Peca annouced he liked Ruff as a coach.

One thing that came out of Woolley's criticism is that Ruff concentrates on mistakes. What the hell is wrong with that? It misses the big picture? I don't think so. Look at the history of coaches - one constant describing successful coaches is attention to detail.

I do have problems with Ruff, notably Woolley's other criticism: he doesn't consistently bench underperformers.

And if you want to give the players a chance under a new coach, why not give the coach a chance under a new GM, or everyone a chance under the new ownership? Someone noted that the Sabres started winning when Hamister gained exclusive rights with the NHL, and it looked like there would be resolution.

2. You try not to trade undervalued assets. Satan will not play much better, and you won't get much more for him. Zhitnik, IF YOU PLAY HIM WITH A RD (DARCY, YOU AWAKE?), will return to All Star form. That's why I'd be more inclined to keep Zhitnik than Satan. And I'd be more inclined to keep Zhitnik over McKee as we are deep at LD and McKee has more trade value. Plus, McKee has not been the same since his concussion. And Zhitnik has played better than Gratton or Barnes.

3. In the lineup scenario I mentioned, keep in mind I dealt away Dumont. I am also proposing to deal Brown and Varada - which should be more questioned than dealing Satan and Gratton, BTW. Barnes will be 34, Gratton will be a Group II RFA, and you face the real risk with the upcoming CBA (IMO), that in exchange for a salary cap that UFA will be changed to a lower age. I believe that will change to 29. But why trade Gratton? I think I've gone into that ad nauseum before. Satan? Same reasoning, except that you should be able to get excellent value for him. In terms of our draft, I really like Roy and Paille. Replace Pominville with Afinogenov. I like Gaustad's style of play. McMorrow, unless he actually starts obliterating people, won't play in the NHL. But due to my forgetting of Afinogenov, move them down and wind up with:

Pyatt Connolly Kotalik
Hecht Roy Afinogenov
Paille Gaustad Pominville

If you can't get decent value for Brown and Varada, I would not be opposed to keeping them - especially Varada. So alter it again, like thus:

Pyatt Connolly Kotalik
Hecht Brown Afinogenov
Paille Roy Varada

This leaves us to create a top line in two years. We can stick with Satan, Gratton and Barnes. Barnes will be too old by then, Gratton is an inconsistent pretender who has lots of trade value in the eyes of half of the GMs out there, and very little in the other half. Satan is truly a 1st line player, but is getting old and expensive.

So we have this lineup. When we actually start to compete annually, 2006-7, Satan will be 33 and Gratton will be 32. Too old. I would much rather take my chances with high end prospects like a Frolov and LA's #1 for Satan, for example.

Given we should have a high draft choice, this year and next, we have a pretty good chance of filling in 2/3 of those spots anyway. But that means no busts are possible. I would prefer putting the odds in our favor and getting more draft choices and prospects. If they all pan out, then we talk dynasty. If half pan out, I still think you have a contender. Obviously, I have higher expectations of what panning out means for a top ten pick than other picks.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by bduff54
oh my god, Zhitnik over kaberle???????? someone please talk some sense into this boy!

I'm not saying he has more trade value. He is a better player, today.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Player6600
I have to agree with duffy on this one. Kaberle is one of the premier defenseman in the NHL and he's only about 22(?). The guy is a great skater with lots of patience. He reminds me of a Lidstrom on the offensive side. Defensively he's average but you have to remember that defenseman peak late so this he will improve on. It was a mockery to me thathe didn't make the all-star game.

Zhitnik is a better skater than Kaberle. Zhitnik gets more ice time. Zhitnik is more physical. Zhitnik is played out of position, Kaberle isn't. Zhitnik is parenting Tallinder, Kaberle isn't.

His offense numbers benefit from a Queef PP that is much improved over last year. Even last year, they had about the same points.

Defensively, as you note, Kaberle is average. Zhitnik is better than average.

I will take Zhitnik.

[bduff54]

sorry lafontaine but you are horribly wrong on this one. Kaberle is mmuch better than Zhitnik right now. It is not even close!

[LALAFONTAINE]

The only thing anyone's argued for is that Kaberle is better offensively. I will grant that, though it's not as large a difference as you think.

Zhitnik is a better skater, more physical, better defensively and tougher.

If goals from a defensemen are your only criteria, I will enter the Rory Fitzpatrick vs. McKee or Warrener debate.

[bduff54]

better skater??????????? do you watch hockey?? Player6600 please jump in here. Kaberle is probably in the top 5 when it comes to bringing up the puck. in 1993 Zhitnik was great but this is 2003 and Kabele is leaps and bounds ahead of him at this point. Do you know why Lindros isn't in a leaf UNI??? Because Calrke wanted Kaberle and Quinn refused to give him up!

[Player6600]

Originally posted by LALAFONTAINE
Zhitnik is a better skater than Kaberle. Zhitnik gets more ice time. Zhitnik is more physical. Zhitnik is played out of position, Kaberle isn't. Zhitnik is parenting Tallinder, Kaberle isn't.

His offense numbers benefit from a Queef PP that is much improved over last year. Even last year, they had about the same points.

Defensively, as you note, Kaberle is average. Zhitnik is better than average.

I will take Zhitnik.

Have you watched Kaberle play. I'm a big fan of Zhitnik but Kaberle has a real talent and he is more patient with the puck, a better passer, and stickhandler. Zhitnik is better defensively but how can you say he is out of position for playing with Tallinder. You could argue the restrictive system but not playing out of position.

[bduff54]

thanks player.

[LALAFONTAINE]

I can argue that Zhitnik is playing out of position because he is playing on the right side, where he is a much worse defenseman than when he plays on the left side.

I am not arguing that Kaberle has more trade value, so I don't give a rat's ass over what Quinn and Clarke were bartering over. We all know Quinn's GM skills from his Mogilny for Peca, McKee and Wilson deal.

As for Zhitnik's defense, that he is better than Kaberle has been agreed to.

As for Zhitnik's physical superiority or greater toughness, nobody has countered that either.

As for Zhitnik's skating, nobody has countered that argument yet.
http://www.canoe.ca/Hockey99AllStar/jan24_asgtor.html offers proof of Zhitnik's speed.

As for his puckhandling, passing and patience with the puck, I disagree. Zhitnik usually makes better decisions in his own zone. Kaberle is better in the offensive zone.

[bduff54]

sorry boss your horribly confused on this one.

[Thumper]

LALA - I think someone needs to point out to you that you are actually wrong sometimes. Let me count the ways.

1.) I said that the players who have bad mouthed Ruff were "Woolley, Kozlov, Andreychuck, Gilmour". I never said Peca. You know about Woolley's statements. We know Gilmour's statements......And why is he so loved by Habs fans if he's playing no better than he did here? He's got 10 goals and 19 assists for 29 points this year. He's on pace to score more points than he did with Buffalo. He was a key role in the season that the Habs had last year, gutting it out for the playoffs and helping to lead the way. He despised Ruff's coaching tactics and hated Ruff always playing him on the wing. Amazing how he didn't want to retire after getting out of here.

Kozlov? Did you not see the interview from the Russian article/interview? I wish I had a link for it. He also talked about Ruff's coaching style....The schemes he put into place. The fact that he doesn't change them after they don't work for 30 games....Like the dump and chase which has been in place here since Ruff's first day. The benching of players was also mentioned. Kozlov seems to be playing quite well in Atlanta.

Andreychuck? Ruff benched him for his last two games of the regular season, let alone how many times he benched the Tampa Bay Captain throughout the season. Andy was on the verge of a regular season point mile stone when Ruff benched him. He was one goal away or one point away, I can't remember which. For a guy that was contimplating retirement after that season, that was a bit of a slap in the face to bench him on Ruff's part. Don't you think? Andreychuck never said he wanted to come back to Buffalo. He said he just wanted to play at least one more season, at the end of the year, before retiring. He was a guy that also disliked Ruff's tactic.

[LALAFONTAINE]

No. Theodore was the reason Montreal did anything last year. Gilmour had 38 pts with Buffalo two years ago, 41 pts with Montreal (with more ice time) last year. Where's the big difference? And he actually was considering retirement in Montreal last year because he was playing so poorly.

No, I didn't see Kozlov's comments. I did see his comments about Buffalo. Is he playing better? He has more points. But Kozlov averaged more ppg in Buffalo than his last couple of years in Detroit. And Kozlov did play well for Ruff - when the spirit moved him.

Ruff used Andreychuk perfectly. He got the same production out of him here as in TB, with 6 minutes of ice time less per game. Absolute genius on Ruff's part. Andreychuk is a PP specialist now, nothing more.

[Player6600]

Originally posted by LALAFONTAINE
I can argue that Zhitnik is playing out of position because he is playing on the right side, where he is a much worse defenseman than when he plays on the left side.

As for Zhitnik's defense, that he is better than Kaberle has been agreed to.

As for Zhitnik's physical superiority or greater toughness, nobody has countered that either.

As for Zhitnik's skating, nobody has countered that argument yet.
http://www.canoe.ca/Hockey99AllStar/jan24_asgtor.html offers proof of Zhitnik's speed.

As for his puckhandling, passing and patience with the puck, I disagree. Zhitnik usually makes better decisions in his own zone. Kaberle is better in the offensive zone.

How is he playing out of position for a defenseman it doesn't matter what side you play on. He's a good player and defensively he has an edge but with the puck Kaberle is in a different league.

Zhitnik is a great skater, many hockey players believe that Kasparitis is the best pure skater in the NHL, but that doesn't necessarily equate too much.

[Player6600]

Originally posted by LALAFONTAINE
I

I am not arguing that Kaberle has more trade value, so I don't give a rat's ass over what Quinn and Clarke were bartering over. We all know Quinn's GM skills from his Mogilny for Peca, McKee and Wilson deal.


Too come to Quinns defense he did acquire Naslund and Bertuzzi for basically nothing

[Cowboy]

Trade me right ****ing now.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Actually, that's a good point about Quinn. Acquiring 2 of the top 5 players in the NHL forgives a lot of sins.

[Player6600]

Originally posted by Cowboy
Trade me right ****ing now.

and then hang up the phone

[bduff54]

word is the leafs are going after nolan!

[sfoote]

Yes but they won't get him just like they don't get anybody, they always say they're going after players, trouble is they never get any of them.

[bduff54]

yeah you are right, i am just reporting what i hear.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Player6600
How is he playing out of position for a defenseman it doesn't matter what side you play on. He's a good player and defensively he has an edge but with the puck Kaberle is in a different league.

Zhitnik is a great skater, many hockey players believe that Kasparitis is the best pure skater in the NHL, but that doesn't necessarily equate too much.

It absolutely does matter what side a defenseman plays on. Why do you think there's a premium for RD? Have you seen the difference in play between when McKee plays the left and right side? It is tremendous. Zhitnik's play deteriorates as well. The problem for Z is that his play doesn't deteriorate as much as Tallinder's, Kalinin's, Campbell's or McKee's. I can't blame Ruff for playing Zhitnik on RD - who the hell else would you play there? I blame Regier. Note that Zhitnik's play has fallen off in conjunction with Smehlik's absence from the lineup (whether by injury or FA movement).

[Player6600]

Lalafontaine as someone who play defense it makes no difference. Actually many defenseman prefer to play on their off-wing

[LALAFONTAINE]

Watch Zhitnik play LD vs. RD. Watch McKee play LD vs. RD. If you say there isn't a difference, you're wrong.

If it makes no difference, why then does Warrener and Patrick (both R shots) play RD? If it makes no difference, why then does Tallinder, Zhitnik (with a R shooting defenseman Smehlik), Kalinin, Campbell, Woolley all play LD? It most certainly makes a difference.

Zhitnik's play has fallen off. A big reason is Smehlik leaving, and his injuries the previous year before he left. You think it's Hasek? Zhitnik played well in LA without Hasek. Of course, he was paired with a true RD, Blake. You think it's his age? He's 30.

Many wingers prefer to play on their off-wing, but there is a reason for this: it gives their shot a better angle. There's a large difference between playing wing and defense.

[Player6600]

I would have to disagree it's well known that many russian forwards prefer the off-wing. for a defenseman the margin is still so small. Zhitnik is a very good player but Kaberle is better. Maybe it's the system where Zhitnik is not allowed to join into the rush or maybe our lack of offense. I don't know but right now I would prefer Kaberle over Zhitnik regardless of age.

[Thumper]

Originally posted by Thumper
LALA - I think someone needs to point out to you that you are actually wrong sometimes. Let me count the ways.

1.) I said that the players who have bad mouthed Ruff were "Woolley, Kozlov, Andreychuck, Gilmour". I never said Peca. You know about Woolley's statements. We know Gilmour's statements......And why is he so loved by Habs fans if he's playing no better than he did here? He's got 10 goals and 19 assists for 29 points this year. He's on pace to score more points than he did with Buffalo. He was a key role in the season that the Habs had last year, gutting it out for the playoffs and helping to lead the way. He despised Ruff's coaching tactics and hated Ruff always playing him on the wing. Amazing how he didn't want to retire after getting out of here.

Kozlov? Did you not see the interview from the Russian article/interview? I wish I had a link for it. He also talked about Ruff's coaching style....The schemes he put into place. The fact that he doesn't change them after they don't work for 30 games....Like the dump and chase which has been in place here since Ruff's first day. The benching of players was also mentioned. Kozlov seems to be playing quite well in Atlanta.

Andreychuck? Ruff benched him for his last two games of the regular season, let alone how many times he benched the Tampa Bay Captain throughout the season. Andy was on the verge of a regular season point mile stone when Ruff benched him. He was one goal away or one point away, I can't remember which. For a guy that was contimplating retirement after that season, that was a bit of a slap in the face to bench him on Ruff's part. Don't you think? Andreychuck never said he wanted to come back to Buffalo. He said he just wanted to play at least one more season, at the end of the year, before retiring. He was a guy that also disliked Ruff's tactics.

I never got to finish this post.... Note that I said "Let me count the ways" and there's only a #1. My friend/singer in my band and I have been arguing about this whole Pete Townshend issue....I'm a huge Who fan and Pete Townshend is one of my idols.....This whole kiddie porn thing is bullsh*t in my humble opinion. Pete Townshend has waged a one man war on kiddie porn and pedofiles over the last few years and through research he stumbled upon pictures that no one should see. This is why he was arrested. My friend begs to differ, even though he know no facts to support why, and felt the need to find my unfinished post one night and write about Pete Townshend and kiddie porn and all of that on my last message. I apologize for his immaturity and hope you all realized that that was a bit out of place in the context that I was writing about. I edited my post as soon as I saw it and deleted it.

Okay...now that that is off of my chest, I will continue my post where I left off.

[Thumper]

.

[Thumper]

2.) There are 30 GM's in the NHL right now that would take Kaberle over Zhitnik at this point in their careers.

3.) You are going way over board with this whole LD and RD thing. If Zhitnik was still as good a player as you say he is, there wouldn't be such a dramatic drop off in his play. He wouldn't go from a possible Norris Trophy candidate to the way he has played the last two years just because he's playing on the other side of the ice. Just putting Zhitnik with a RD will NOT return him to all star form. Zhitnik needs a lot more than that to improve. He needs a change of scenary and new coach before just playing with some guy who can play on the right side.

4.) You said that Satan will never get any better. You couldn't be more wrong. If he actually played with only one more player that had as much offensive talent as he does, Miro would probably score 50 goals a year. If he had a center like a Modano or a Naslund, a kind of center that Miro has never played with in his entire career. It's really amazing that he has as many career points as he does.

5.) Again....There is no point in arguing about you're future line up made mostly of players that have never played one shift in the NHL. You can't tell me that this is the possible scenario when all it is based on is your opinion of how all of these young players are going to pan out. You still need to have veterans...You still need to have a bit of gray hair on the roster of a team that can make a push for the Cup. And when is the last time every draft pick the Sabres made actually panned out?

[bduff54]

bravo thumper, bravo!

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Player6600
I would have to disagree it's well known that many russian forwards prefer the off-wing. for a defenseman the margin is still so small. Zhitnik is a very good player but Kaberle is better. Maybe it's the system where Zhitnik is not allowed to join into the rush or maybe our lack of offense. I don't know but right now I would prefer Kaberle over Zhitnik regardless of age.

There is a difference between forwards and defensemen. As I stated, forwards prefer playing the off wing. Find a defenseman who prefers it. It's rare. Why? Because instead of clearing the zone on your forehand, you are doing so on the backhand.

You put Zhitnik in that situation, he'll perform better than Kaberle. He would do so in Buffalo too, if you got a RD for him to play with.

[The REAL Sabres]

Originally posted by LALAFONTAINE
There is a difference between forwards and defensemen. As I stated, forwards prefer playing the off wing. Find a defenseman who prefers it. It's rare. Why? Because instead of clearing the zone on your forehand, you are doing so on the backhand.

I clear it from the forehand on each side.:rolleyes:

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Thumper
2.) There are 30 GM's in the NHL right now that would take Kaberle over Zhitnik at this point in their careers.

3.) You are going way over board with this whole LD and RD thing. If Zhitnik was still as good a player as you say he is, there wouldn't be such a dramatic drop off in his play. He wouldn't go from a possible Norris Trophy candidate to the way he has played the last two years just because he's playing on the other side of the ice. Just putting Zhitnik with a RD will NOT return him to all star form. Zhitnik needs a lot more than that to improve. He needs a change of scenary and new coach before just playing with some guy who can play on the right side.

4.) You said that Satan will never get any better. You couldn't be more wrong. If he actually played with only one more player that had as much offensive talent as he does, Miro would probably score 50 goals a year. If he had a center like a Modano or a Naslund, a kind of center that Miro has never played with in his entire career. It's really amazing that he has as many career points as he does.

5.) Again....There is no point in arguing about you're future line up made mostly of players that have never played one shift in the NHL. You can't tell me that this is the possible scenario when all it is based on is your opinion of how all of these young players are going to pan out. You still need to have veterans...You still need to have a bit of gray hair on the roster of a team that can make a push for the Cup. And when is the last time every draft pick the Sabres made actually panned out?

2. I never said that Kaberle's trade value was less than Zhitnik's. It isn't. Today, Zhitnik is a better player than Kaberle.

3. Many players play better when they play in positions they are comfortable in. Mark Messier was MUCH better as a C than at LW - and that's as a forward. The difference in his play was incredible. It's even more dramatic on defense. Look how Jay McKee changes from an invitee to Team Canada's camp to a bad defenseman when not paired with Warrener. Why? Because he's not able to play well on RD. Not every defenseman is like that, but most are, and every Sabre defenseman - with the exception of Patrick and Warrener (who I've never seen play LD) is.

4. Satan's points may be better, but it doesn't mean he's playing any better in that situation. You could argue the same with every Sabre forward, if he was going to play with Modano or Naslund. However, a guy like Afinogenov would improve (most likely) because he's young and hasn't reached his full potential.

5. That is why you have to acquire more draft picks than spots - simply because all of them won't pan out. But why will this year's draft (in all likelihood) pan out? Because it is a very deep draft. Both the 2003 and 2004 drafts are supposed to be very good drafts. Develop your core with youth. If you need to acquire an old player once you've developed a good team, then by all means do it. There is no use keeping Barnes around on a developing team. We can't fully develop our core with youth unless we make a commitment to getting draft choices and prospects for Satan, Gratton, Barnes and Zhitnik. Doing that leaves 3 lines of NHL players, with a crapload of prospects to more than fill out the lines over the next 3-4 years. And with the extra depth, then you acquire an experienced graybeard like Peca.

[Player6600]

Originally posted by LALAFONTAINE
You put Zhitnik in that situation, he'll perform better than Kaberle. He would do so in Buffalo too, if you got a RD for him to play with.

first off it doesn't make that much of a difference and second of all if you are positioned correctly it shouldn't be a problem.

[Player6600]

LaLafontaine-do you play hockey?

[LALAFONTAINE]

Yes, but right now it's ball hockey. I will be playing in the upcoming ISBHF World Championships in June.

Here is the information from the last tournament. Despite having 1/6 of the people that Erie County has, we finished 5th in the World.

http://www.isbhf.com/WC2001/

[The REAL Sabres]

Originally posted by LALAFONTAINE
Yes, but right now it's ball hockey. I will be playing in the upcoming ISBHF World Championships in June.

Here is the information from the last tournament. Despite having 1/6 of the people that Erie County has, we finished 5th in the World.

http://www.isbhf.com/WC2001/

Senior Street Hockey!! How can we doubt your judgment?!?!?!;)

[LALAFONTAINE]

I wasn't the one equating beer league participation with knowledge. I just answered the question.

[Player6600]

It just doesn't seem like you understand that it's not a big difference

[The REAL Sabres]

Maybe he means playing the point in the offencive zone?

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Player6600
It just doesn't seem like you understand that it's not a big difference

http://shutdownpair.homestead.com/hatch_gettingright.html

http://www.msnbc.com/news/871993.asp

http://www.sabresalumni.com/2001/robitaille_mike.php

http://www.dallasnews.com/newsletters/email/stars/stories/111802dnspostarsnewsletter.1ca5ed99.html

Seems like Hitchcock and Quenneville, among others, don't as well. Nor does Dave Tippett and Derian Hatcher. You'd see a similar type of improvement with Zhitnik as you've seen in Hatcher's play this year if you moved him to the left side.

"My whole career I've played the right-hand side, and I never realized how tough it was," Hatcher said. "It's so much easier now [on the left side]. It's easier to move the puck, your head is up and you don't have to bring it over from your backhand."

"The one thing Dave Tippett said when I met with him this summer is other teams know when I'm playing the right side," Hatcher said. "And when I would get the puck on my backhand and this is from him being on another team coaching against me they would recognize that and come at me faster to make me move the puck faster."

Forced to his backhand, Hatcher could be pressured into mistakes.

“Everybody is looking for a right-handed shot that can play defense.” -Joel Quenneville

"It’s not as easy for an average NHLer to make the transition and be effective, much less dominate or, in the case of Orr, revolutionize the game.
“Orr had quick feet and a quick stick. He was a guy who made it look easy playing the off side because of his mobility,” Flyers coach Ken Hitchcock says. “Bourque had the quickest stick in the league. He was one of those guys who could really snap it from there. The other thing is, Bourque was almost fearless. Playing on that side, you have to open up your body and you are going to get whacked.”
Like in politics, lefties wandering over to the right can take a beating. Quenneville says moving to the opposite side creates “blind spots” for a defenseman.
“It’s tough in the hitting areas, getting hit or controlling the puck. I think containment is even challenging,” Quenneville says. “I think that’s a whole different position, and it’s a big adjustment.”
Moving from the left to right side requires adjustments at both ends.
“It’s a lot harder to play defense in the defensive zone on your off hand — you’re always on your backhand,” says Tom Poti, a left-shooting defenseman for the Rangers. “Obviously, coming out on the rush, you don’t have your strong side on the stick. But on the offensive side, it’s a lot easier when you’re in the zone because you’re always on your forehand, and it’s a lot easier to create offense.” "

"As a right-handed shooting defenseman he was a much desired asset for any team in the NHL. "

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Sabrejeff
Maybe he means playing the point in the offensive zone?

No. You benefit a bit from that - playing the off-side. That is more important for a winger than a defenseman, because you are lower in the zone.

I am strictly talking about playing in the defensive zone. Read the articles I posted above. I thought it was fairly common knowledge how GMs and coaches put a premium on RD. I guess I was wrong.

[Player6600]

Lalafontaine-no offense, but i think you're wrong about the side you play on. Of course some defenseman prefer one side to another but it's not a big deal.

[Thumper]

Way to back up your points on LD and RD, LALA. But I still disagree with you on your opinion that Zhitnik is a better dman that Kaberle. Taking age out of it, why wouldn't all 30 GM's in the league still take Kaberle over Zhitnik? Kaberle is the better of the two today. Not Zhitnik. You switch Alexei's defensive side and I still say he's not as good as Kaberle. Of course it's a tough argument for me to make because I don't see his position on the blue line changing before he gets traded. But Zhitnik has never looked so bad before....I think he's passed his prime and I don't think he'll never regain that dominant form.

On Satan....Sure every player in the league would play better with Modano or Naslund at center. But Satan has something that most NHL'ers, aside from all-stars, don't have.....And that's finish. You put Max on the wing with Modano and Max will probably have 10 breakaway's a game and 30 goals at the end of the season. He doesn't have that killer instinct to finish at all. You put Miro on his wing and he scores 50 goals because right now he's scoring 30 with Gratton at center......And that's only part of the time.

On point #5....I'm agreeing with a lot that you are saying now. But I still think that this team absolutley NEEDS to keep the one pure scorer we have in Satan unless you trade him in a deal that was impossible to turn down. And just because the next two years of the draft are real deep doesn't mean that all of our picks will benefit this team more than keeping a Gratton or Barnes. There is no one as dominant as a Kovalchuk in this upcoming draft. It's deeper than his draft year was, but if we're picking in the top 3 picks, it'd be nice to have a player as dominant as he is.

[LALAFONTAINE]

Originally posted by Player6600
Lalafontaine-no offense, but i think you're wrong about the side you play on. Of course some defenseman prefer one side to another but it's not a big deal.

All I can do is present the evidence. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine. But in doing so, you think a lot of hockey minds are wrong too.

[Player6600]

like who?

[bduff54]

yeah who?

[LALAFONTAINE]

Hitchcock, Quenneville and Tippett. Did you not read the article?

[Player6600]

no please post it.

[The REAL Sabres]

Originally posted by Player6600
no please post it.

Go back 18 posts in this thread.

[LALAFONTAINE]

http://shutdownpair.homestead.com/h...ttingright.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/871993.asp
http://www.sabresalumni.com/2001/robitaille_mike.php
http://www.dallasnews.com/newslette...r.1ca5ed99.html