End The Sanctions On Iraq

[Mr.Chimp]

Sanctions: Myth & Reality

Myth 1: The sanctions have produced temporary hardship for the Iraqi people but are an effective, nonviolent method of containing Iraq.

Sanctions target the weakest and most vulnerable members of the Iraqi society–the poor, elderly, newborn, sick, and young. Many equate sanctions with violence. The sanctions, coupled with pain inflicted by US and UK military attacks, have reduced Iraq’s infrastructure to virtual rubble. Water sanitation plants and hospitals remain in dilapidated states. Surveys by the United Nation’s Children’s Fund (Unicef) and the World Health Organization (WHO) note a marked decline in health and nutrition throughout Iraq....


http://www.nonviolence.org/vitw/pages/myth_reality.html

[billsfanone]

What should we do?

If anyone missed, and if it's on again, I suggest watching "The Real Saddam." It was a special on the Discovery Channel. It was pretty sick. I don't think anyone would look at things the same afterwards. He is a madman!

[Mr.Chimp]

What kills more iraqi children...the sanctions or saddam hussein?

[Mr.Chimp]

What should we do?

stop watching stupid one sided shows like the 'real saddam'. he is a madman, yes.

More children die through the sanctions.

[billsfanone]

I don't know. After watching that program, I can understand why the world would be in danger if he got his hands on a nuke.

[billsfanone]

How do you know it was one sided? Did you watch it?

A lot of the footage was purposely filmed an leaked out by Saddam to scare the crap out of any dissenters.

[billsfanone]

The bottom line is we are damned if we do damned if we don't.

[Mr.Chimp]

Morbidity and Mortality Among Iraqi Children From 1990 through 1998

http://www.fourthfreedom.org/php/t-si-index.php?hinc=garf-index.hinc

The bottom line is we are damned if we do damned if we don't.

The bottom line is how we treat the children.

[billsfanone]

Believe me I feel for the Iraqi children. There is no easy answer. All of us armchair politicians can't even begin to come up with a plan to end homelessness, how do you expect anyone to come up with any solution other than knee-jerk broad brush "solutions" that don’t take many of the more complex issues into consideration.

[billsfanone]

So you want to simply end sanctions. Are there any ramifications in doing so?

[Mr.Chimp]

Are there any ramifications in doing so?

yea we save many lives.

[billsfanone]

Originally posted by Mr.Chimp
yea we save many lives.

Nothing negative? Think a little.

[Mr.Chimp]

Nothing negative? Think a little


Its your job to think of something negative...you didnt think i was going to sit here and respond to you, so you can cut me up did you? you should think a little, give me some input...you tell me, whats negative.

[billsfanone]

It's too complex. That's my point.

I'm growing tired of people serving up one step fixes to complex world issues.

BTW, I think "just bomb 'em" won't work either.

[Mr.Chimp]

It's too complex. That's my point.


lol...its too hard of an issue...dont try? sounds like homer simpsonology to me.

[billsfanone]

I'm not an expert on world affairs, like everyone else here. Even you.

[Mr.Chimp]

dont worry BF1 all you have to do is read, i will get you started on reading material my american friend. Maybe my friend down there can inspire you...

[billsfanone]

Read what? I read a lot more than you think. Typical liberal attack to accuse anyone that disagrees of being uninformed. Do I need to rip you a new one like I did someone else a few days back?

[mighty peace warrior]

Mr. Chimp what would you suggest as a solution then? It is easy to criticize(so i can't spell) someone elses decision, anyone can do that. Propose solutions instead of just complaining about what is happening.

[billsfanone]

Those who can't do, criticize.

[Mr.Chimp]

posted by my american friend BF1

Typical liberal attack

what is a 'liberal attack'? is this the part where you pull out a label?

Those who can't do, criticize.


Ive never understood this line of thinking. Id imagine every president, prime minister at one time had an opposing voice, where criticism of an existing regime was paramount.


ive heard clinton criticize b4 he was prez
ive heard bush criticize b4 he was elected
ive heard regan criticize b4 he was elected...

my point is i have no clue what you are talking about.

[mighty peace warrior]

no one is saying people should not criticize, but if you are going to, have a different solution as opposed to just saying "that soulution is dumb"

[Mr.Chimp]

posted by mightypeacewarrior
Mr. Chimp what would you suggest as a solution then?

Didnt i say end the sanctions as a solution to stop the deaths of the children? Or do you mean how i would go about ending it..by taking all variables into account?

no one is saying people should not criticize, but if you are going to, have a different solution as opposed to just saying "that soulution is dumb"


i never said the solution was dumb, because im the one who proposed a soultion to ending the deaths, maybe you didnt read the title of this thread its called 'end the sanctions'.

[mighty peace warrior]

What would you do to resolve the conflict, the sanctions are a symptom, not the disease

[billsfanone]

Liberals like to use the uninformed line when faced with a bit of adversity.

It's easier to criticize than to do. It's easier to criticize than to come up with your own plan.

Maybe if Canadian media wasn't so controlling, you would see more of the world picture. I feel for Canadians with their restrictive authoritarian government.

[ticatfan3]

Nobody can fix Iraq but the people of Iraq and if they don't want to do it then why should we.Not every body wants the american way of life.

[billsfanone]

Originally posted by mighty peace warrior
no one is saying people should not criticize, but if you are going to, have a different solution as opposed to just saying "that soulution is dumb"

Right. That is my point.

It happens all the time with the Bills debates. Fire GW – he’s dumb, cut Watson – he sucks, cut Herny – he fumbles, cut Peerless – he trashtalks, cut, fire, cut, get rid of.

Ok, if you give those fixes, give some alternatives too!!!

[Mr.Chimp]

mighty peace warriror
What would you do to resolve the conflict

its not a conflict im talking about, its a humanatarian crisis.

posted by BF1
It's easier to criticize than to do. It's easier to criticize than to come up with your own plan.

lol....i could have swore i was the one who came up with the solution...the thread is called 'end the sanctions'. My solution is to end the sanctions....i think BF1 clearly has eaten too much today.


Its seems that your the one criticizing my solution to end the sanctions.

I have no clue what you guys are talkin about, what makes it funnier is how you yanks agree with each other...lol



Second how did this turn into a debate about me? Why dont we stick to the issue?

[billsfanone]

Originally posted by ticatfan3
Nobody can fix Iraq but the people of Iraq and if they don't want to do it then why should we.Not every body wants the american way of life.

The people are scared to death of him.

He once brought in a "possible detractor" and had his henchmen rape and kill his wife in front of him while he was tortured and later killed himself. Can you imagine what would happen if there was any type of protest by unarmed people?

[BogusTrumper]

I have a hard time with this one. It's a big issue in my church. And I'm on the social committee and we sponsor a lot of campaigns to help convince people to stop the sanctions. But my problem is that Saddam himself is as much to blame as the sanctions. He should use some of that money he used to build his 100 + new palaces to feed, clothe, and take care of the medical needs of his people.

[billsfanone]

Originally posted by Mr.Chimp
its not a conflict im talking about, its a humanatarian crisis.



lol....i could have swore i was the one who came up with the solution...the thread is called 'end the sanctions'. My solution is to end the sanctions....i think BF1 clearly has eaten too much today.


Its seems that your the one criticizing my solution of end the sanctions.

I have no clue what you guys are talkin about

Ok then how would you guanantee that Saddam feeds all of his people rather than building weapons and palaces - like Bogus brought up?

[Mr.Chimp]

Ok then how would you guanantee that Saddam feeds all of his people rather than building weapons and palaces - like Bogus brought up?


good question.

The first step is to change the context in which saddam operates. No one can deny that when war is at your footstep, you will react to the threat. Saddam is no exception.

Iraq is operating under a threat of war. That has to change.

[billsfanone]

No sanctions, no threats.

I guess you want him to remain in power. Is that correct?

[Mr.Chimp]

No sanctions, no threats.

I guess you want him to remain in power. Is that correct?

b4 i answer you Bf1...

How come my thread got moved out of the canadian thread...i need it in there to bring people in, can the moderator please make it canadian exclusive?




I dont want him to remain in power. I think ending the sanctions is the best way to bring about his removal. Trust the Iraqi people to do it themselves. They best way we can help is lifting those sanctions.


Personally, i will not risks the costs associated with removal by force.

[billsfanone]

If it was that easy, I would say go for it. Help the Iraqi people. But Saddam is a madman psycho killer (rape, torture, murder, etc.). He has the power, guns, tanks. The unarmed people can't do anything.

[mighty peace warrior]

Originally posted by Mr.Chimp
I dont want him to remain in power. I think ending the sanctions is the best way to bring about his removal. Trust the Iraqi people to do it themselves. They best way we can help is lifting those sanctions.
.

How does removing sanctions bring about his removal? How would that even help? We already ship in food, he takes it to feed himself and his Army. The only way he will be out of power is through force.

[Mr.Chimp]

We already ship in food, he takes it to feed himself and his Army.

back that claim up with evidence

[mighty peace warrior]

The only evidence i can give you is to say that is what iraqis told me personally when i was camped in the middle of their country.

[Mr.Chimp]

The only evidence i can give you is to say that is what iraqis told me personally when i was camped in the middle of their country.


Dont take this personally, but i have to be harsh.

One american soldier's claim that he had overheard or was activley engaged in talking with iraqi civilians, and during those conversations, was told saddam steals food to feed the army, is not even close to enough to justify an estimated 500,000 iraqi civilian casualties, should a war proceed.

[mighty peace warrior]

its your turn to prove your numbers, i believe my own eyes, you believe some news report

[mighty peace warrior]

where did i say i spoke to iraqi civilians? I gaurded thousands of iraqi soldiers (an amazing number of whom spoke english) who begged us to remove saddam,and told us that was what he was doing. Did i write their statements down for your future benifit? well no of course not. But i have been to iraq and seen how those people live, you have not im guessing. Saddam is a dictator who rules through fear and spreads propaganda just like some fella with a small mustache who lived in germany in the 40's but im guessing you would have been against removing him too.

[mighty peace warrior]

500,000 civilian casualties, why not say a million or two? what kind of made up number is that? i know for a fact there were no where close to that many last time, a 2nd war would be quicker than the first. Im not even saying we should attack. I have asked you once before and i ask again, how do you think lifting sanctions would eliminate saddam?

[Mr.Chimp]

sorry MPW, but like i said before, one soliders claim is not enough to justify 500,000 casualties.

[mighty peace warrior]

What about your 500,000 casualty claim, where is your proof. You called me out, back up your statistics my freind.

[Mr.Chimp]

UN see's 500,000 casualites at start of war
Tue January 7, 2003 01:26 PM ET
By Irwin Arieff
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - As many as half a million Iraqis could require medical treatment as a result of serious injuries suffered in the early stages of a war on Iraq, U.N. emergency planners said in a document disclosed Tuesday.

The total includes some 100,000 expected to be injured as a direct result of combat and a further 400,000 wounded as an indirect result of the devastation, according to estimates prepared by the World Health Organization, the document said


http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm...storyID=2004746

if that link doesnt work try this one...

http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/11/12/iraqreport021112

[Mr.Chimp]

Lifting the sanctions will save countless lives, and more importantly we (the west) will win the war for the hearts and minds of the iraqi people.

[billsfanone]

Originally posted by Mr.Chimp
Lifting the sanctions will save countless lives, and more importantly we (the west) will win the war for the hearts and minds of the iraqi people.

Or the propaganda machine will tell the people that the weak Americans gave up. VIVA IRAQ!!!! VIVA SADDAM!!!!!

[BogusTrumper]

Seems to be a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[mighty peace warrior]

No matter what happens people like Mr. Chimp will blame the U.S. we are supposed to fix everyone's problems, but if we do not do it the way they want we are wrong.

[Mr.Chimp]

chimps like Mr.chimp. : )

its ok that u attack me personally after i skooled you with facts about casualties, that you so easily dismissed a couple posts earlier.

I imagine you looked at them, and the more you read them, the more the truth was unfolding in your brain, the more u hated it, and the more u hated me....hence your attack on me personally was not surprising...

posted by mighty peace warriror

No matter what happens people like Mr. Chimp will blame the U.S. we are supposed to fix everyone's problems, but if we do not do it the way they want we are wrong....


blame the usa for everyones problems, no no, just this one.

[mighty peace warrior]

I do not hate you, i just think your naive. Your "facts" are generalized. anyone can make statistics suit there argument. How many casualties were there during the gulf war, my guess would be far less than your "estimates". the soldiers surrendered to unarmed helicopters last time, do you really think they would fight harder this time? Now of course i do not know anything about it because i was "one soldier" who has actually been there.

[TheGoodShepherd]

For the 4th anniversary.

Hey shiva2999, remember this one???

And guess how many Iraqi casualties the study which appeared in the Lancet; which used the most reliable methodology, estimated?

Over 500,000.

[JLB]

For the 4th anniversary.

Hey shiva2999, remember this one???

And guess how many Iraqi casualties the Lancet, which used the most reliable methodology, estimated?

Over 500,000.

Why dig up such old stuff?
:bills:

[shiva2999]

Why dig up such old stuff?
:bills:

It's history.

[pmoon6]

Why dig up such old stuff?
:bills:So he can pump his chest and Shiva can pat him on his narrow ass.

[sukie]

That wasn't that sampling crap again was it?

[JLB]

It's history.

History cool subject we might need an expert.

Are there any volunteers out there who know anything about history?

We need a volunteer.
:bills:

[shiva2999]

So he can pump his chest and Shiva can pat him on his narrow ass.

Don't hate us because we're beautiful.

[JLB]

Don't hate us because we're beautiful.

Join my World I've fought that my whole life.
:bills:

[pmoon6]

Don't hate us because we're beautiful.I don't hate you. I admire you very much.

Why you defend and encourage the little toad is beyond me. But do what you feel necessary.

Carry on.

[TheGoodShepherd]

I don't hate you. I admire you very much.

Why you defend and encourage the little toad is beyond me. But do what you feel necessary.

Carry on.

Haven't figured it out yet?

Because what I say is more insightful than what you say.

Period.

Would you give someone props who thinks three plus four equals six?

Nope, you wouldn't.

And a lot of the time, you're very wrong. Which is why shiv never agrees with the stupid garbage regularly spewing from your mind and onto our computer screens.

Clear enough?

Carry on.

[JLB]

Haven't figured it out yet?

Because what I say is more insightful than what you say.

Period.

Would you give someone props who thinks three plus four equals six?

Nope, you wouldn't.

And a lot of the time, you're very wrong. Which is why shiv never agrees with the stupid garbage regularly spewing from your mind and onto our computer screens.

So plea

Are you old and pretty like me and Shiva?
:bills:

[pmoon6]

Haven't figured it out yet?

Because what I say is more insightful than what you say.

Period.

Would you give someone props who thinks three plus four equals six?

Nope, you wouldn't.

And a lot of the time, you're very wrong. Which is why shiv never agrees with the stupid garbage regularly spewing from your mind and onto our computer screens.

Clear enough?

Carry on.Hahaha. You want to start a fight?

I don't need someone to agree with me to prop up my ego, like you do.

[JLB]

History cool subject we might need an expert.

Are there any volunteers out there who know anything about history?

We need a volunteer.
:bills:

Gibby knows a little about History get in there.
:bills:

[JLB]

Hahaha. You want to start a fight?

I don't need someone to agree with me to prop up my ego, like you do.

Bump to the better post.

Good Shepherd this was to you.
:bills:

[shiva2999]

UN see's 500,000 casualites at start of war
Tue January 7, 2003 01:26 PM ET
By Irwin Arieff
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - As many as half a million Iraqis could require medical treatment as a result of serious injuries suffered in the early stages of a war on Iraq, U.N. emergency planners said in a document disclosed Tuesday.

The total includes some 100,000 expected to be injured as a direct result of combat and a further 400,000 wounded as an indirect result of the devastation, according to estimates prepared by the World Health Organization, the document said


http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm...storyID=2004746

if that link doesnt work try this one...

http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/11/12/iraqreport021112

Bump for chimpy...

[pmoon6]

Chimpy won't fight with me anymore.

I don't know why.

I've baited, baited and baited.

He won't take it.

I'm so verklempt.