Expansion

[Papaduke]

Do you think the NHL could have another round of expansion. I would like to see another team in Canada and a team in Kansas City (there is a stadium ready and the city is ready for another team besides the Chiefs to root for).

As for the Canadian team, Hamilton would help resolve the Balsilie problem, though I could see the NHL give the Hamilton ownership group to one that does not involve Balsilie out of spite. Bringing Quebec City or Winnepeg back would be intriguing but neither location has a suitable facility to host and NHL team.

To me the idea of relocating teams is counter-productive to the idea of growing the sport. It takes a generation for the sport to really put down productive roots in an area. We are now seeing players from early expansion markets like Pittsburgh, LA, Buffalo and St Louis. The Western Hockey League is now actively recruiting the Californian youth leagues for prospects.

[ckg68]

I'll make it simple: No. No. A THOUSAND TIMES no.

Weaker teams(yes,Panthers,that includes YOU...and there's a few others that I could mention)should be moved to markets that can support them.

Kansas City would be an ideal place to put a relocated team. So would Portland. Winnipeg has a good enough facility,but it would need to have more seats added on before it is NHL ready-and it's even debatable whether the owners of the AHL's Manitoba Moose even want to go the NHL route,or-if they do-if they have enough corporate backing. Quebec City,I think,is happy with the Q's Remparts. So,don't look for them to return to the NHL. Saskatoon might also provide a tempting target for relocation or expansion(if SaskPlace-now the Credit Union Centre-can be upgraded to NHL specs,which it does have the capability to do if needed).

Papa: The teams you mention have had two generations to grow the sport. Pittsburgh and Buffalo are ideal for helping to get new players in. L.A.,though they've had more lean times than good ones,is OK by me. The same with St. Louis. As for Florida...well,where's the crowds? Where are the prospects?

[CrazzyLegs10]

get rid of nashville, florida panthers, carolina hurricanes, atlanta, probably a few others or move them,

[Bay Side]

Not gonna happen!!

[matthew94]

Expansion? The NHL would be much better served to get rid of a handful of teams!

[sukie]

How can that be possible... You cannot tell an owner "sorry your team is poor so buhbye!.

[3LH]

Yeah I see the point matthew94 is making though. I wonder how many people would vote for contraction? Although the player's union would go absolutely apeshit.

But anyway, that's why I voted against expanding for a while. Let's solidify the teams we have now and/or allow teams to relocate appropriately. Florida will likely never latch on to hockey.

Good poll papaduke.

[Papaduke]

I'll make it simple: No. No. A THOUSAND TIMES no.

Weaker teams(yes,Panthers,that includes YOU...and there's a few others that I could mention)should be moved to markets that can support them.

Kansas City would be an ideal place to put a relocated team. So would Portland. Winnipeg has a good enough facility,but it would need to have more seats added on before it is NHL ready-and it's even debatable whether the owners of the AHL's Manitoba Moose even want to go the NHL route,or-if they do-if they have enough corporate backing. Quebec City,I think,is happy with the Q's Remparts. So,don't look for them to return to the NHL. Saskatoon might also provide a tempting target for relocation or expansion(if SaskPlace-now the Credit Union Centre-can be upgraded to NHL specs,which it does have the capability to do if needed).

Papa: The teams you mention have had two generations to grow the sport. Pittsburgh and Buffalo are ideal for helping to get new players in. L.A.,though they've had more lean times than good ones,is OK by me. The same with St. Louis. As for Florida...well,where's the crowds? Where are the prospects?


Florida has not been in the NHL for more than a generation. The Thrashers and Preds have not been in the league a decade. I can tell from my experience that the Thrashers have been tremendously influential in the local hockey scene. There are club teams at all the area universities that were established with the help of the Thashers, there are several midget and peewee leagues that the Thrashers are helping fund. You might not get a Patrick Kane for a few years, but as long as those teams are where they are, they will begin to develop talent. These are the roots that begin to grow the talent base that in turn raises the abilities of all involved. There is not one positive I can see from relocation. It seems that there are many who see a benefit from keeping hockey a regionalized sport, keeping it to margins of the American sports psyche. Some are happy with that, I am not.

[keyron79]

get rid of nashville, florida panthers, carolina hurricanes, atlanta, probably a few others or move them,

I would like to see Canada get another team in Quebec or Winnipeg. I loved hating the Nordiques.

[Iggy72]

Dallas is the only team south of the Mason-Dixon that has proven it can support an NHL franchise. I can't believe I just used a Civil War reference for the NHL...

Pax.
Iggy72

[3LH]

Florida has not been in the NHL for more than a generation. The Thrashers and Preds have not been in the league a decade. I can tell from my experience that the Thrashers have been tremendously influential in the local hockey scene. There are club teams at all the area universities that were established with the help of the Thashers, there are several midget and peewee leagues that the Thrashers are helping fund. You might not get a Patrick Kane for a few years, but as long as those teams are where they are, they will begin to develop talent. These are the roots that begin to grow the talent base that in turn raises the abilities of all involved. There is not one positive I can see from relocation. It seems that there are many who see a benefit from keeping hockey a regionalized sport, keeping it to margins of the American sports psyche. Some are happy with that, I am not.
I agree with your vision papaduke. I hope we get there.

[Papaduke]

Iggy the key for the success of a NHL franchise is continued success, not location. Dallas has made the playoffs every season since the move from Minnesota. Florida, Tampa and Carolina had on ice successes (Florida in the finals in 1996 and Tampa and Carolina's Stanley Cup championships) but those successes were never built on. If these teams can make frequent appearances in the playoffs they will begin to build more solid fan bases.

And remember the tough times when Buffalo was missing the playoffs leading to the lockout.

[The Grin]

I'd rather see relocation than expansion. Florida, Nashville, Carolina, maybe even Tampa if the ownership deal falls through. They need to put more teams in the West rather than the South. My first choice would be to Winnipeg. After that Kansas City.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone would try put a team in Las Vegas. I don't agree with it, but I can understand why they would do it. They would be the first pro franchise in the city and they would have a natural rivalry with LA, Phoenix, Ducks, and Sharks. Vegas is up to 2 million in population plus there is roughly 40 million visitors per year. Not to mention that there are two new arenas currently planned (one towards the old downtown area near the Stratosphere, one behind the Sahara).

If they happen to move two teams from the East to West, move Detroit and Columbus to the East. Supposedly both of them have been trying to get the league to do it anyway.

[shotgun]

as long as buffalo wins the cup i don;t care what happens!

[Papaduke]

Still waiting on a legitiate reason to relocate teams...

[DropTheGloves]

Solidify the teams you have now before you expand again IMO.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Expansion might be feasible, if they expand into Europe. It would be difficult to work the schedules properly without dropping some games, in order to rest the players, but there's substantial potential for hockey markets there.

[foster]

I'm looking forward to the next crop of young stars (Gerbe / Kennedy / Orpik ) to come out of the Florida market! LOL

What happens to the Florida teams when the Baby Boomers all pass on?

The NHL needs to not only have strong NHL teams, but also needs to continue game interest through the youth leagues, where kids learn to love the game and develop lifelong passion for the game of Hockey....

Look at the cities in the USA that support and cultivate that passion OR could support and cultivate that passion -- that's where your NHL teams should be or go outside of a few exceptions because of their market size: LA / SF / Dallas (which has developed a good youth market ).

Pitt / Detroit / Buffalo / Denver / Minnesota all bring more than just revenues to the table - they bring along thousands of kids who may go to one, 20 or no games per year that bring a lifelong passion for the game and help spread that passion wherever life takes them.

[pigpen65]

I think the league would really benefit from a major realignment. I would love the Sabs to get into a division with the Pens, Flyers, and Rags. Just switch the Sabs for the Devils or Isles.

[ckg68]

Iggy the key for the success of a NHL franchise is continued success, not location. Dallas has made the playoffs every season since the move from Minnesota. Florida, Tampa and Carolina had on ice successes (Florida in the finals in 1996 and Tampa and Carolina's Stanley Cup championships) but those successes were never built on. If these teams can make frequent appearances in the playoffs they will begin to build more solid fan bases.

And remember the tough times when Buffalo was missing the playoffs leading to the lockout.

The problem with Florida and Tampa Bay,I think you'd agree,is that they've done a horrid job of drafting(and then holding on to)talent they draft,as well as FA moves. With the Panthers,I need only say two words: Roberto Luongo. The deal in which Vancouver got him for...well,not much...has to rank among the biggest one sided deals in at least hockey,if not all sports. The Bolts draft record is atrocious,they put all their eggs in one basket when it came to their top talent...paying so much for Lecavalier,Richards,etc. that they had little to pay everyone else,they made crappy choices in player personnel. The Canes,of that group,should prosper the best.

Florida has had one really good season,and even that came out of the blue. Same with T-Bay. Carolina has been the most consistent of the bunch. Then again,they play in the South-Least Division. How hard is it NOT to win that title?

[ckg68]

Expansion might be feasible, if they expand into Europe. It would be difficult to work the schedules properly without dropping some games, in order to rest the players, but there's substantial potential for hockey markets there.

It's not going to happen in our lifetime,under the NHL's aegis or not.

Why? There's a dearth of arenas in Europe that are of the capacity you see in the NHL. Right off the bat,that makes it prohibitive.

[Papaduke]

I'm looking forward to the next crop of young stars (Gerbe / Kennedy / Orpik ) to come out of the Florida market! LOL

What happens to the Florida teams when the Baby Boomers all pass on?

The NHL needs to not only have strong NHL teams, but also needs to continue game interest through the youth leagues, where kids learn to love the game and develop lifelong passion for the game of Hockey....

Look at the cities in the USA that support and cultivate that passion OR could support and cultivate that passion -- that's where your NHL teams should be or go outside of a few exceptions because of their market size: LA / SF / Dallas (which has developed a good youth market ).

Pitt / Detroit / Buffalo / Denver / Minnesota all bring more than just revenues to the table - they bring along thousands of kids who may go to one, 20 or no games per year that bring a lifelong passion for the game and help spread that passion wherever life takes them.

Thats a really shortsighted attitude. Not like Buffalo, Pittsburgh, St Louis have been providing players in the NHL draft all along. Again where these non-traditional market teams are now there are they are laying the roots down for producing hockey players in the future, it took Buffalo almost 40 years to produce their first #1 overall pick.

And as those kids in those areas grow up and leave areas like Buffalo, Detroit and Pittsburgh they move to places like Florida, Atlanta, Raleigh and Nashville. Without the teams there, there is no place to pass that passion along to future generations. I know plenty of Thrasher fans who root for them every game except when they play their childhood teams. They take their kids, their kids frends and new fans are created.

I find it funny how people are so quick to dismiss the Southern market teams and think they are ripe for relocation. Just remember, what is the difference between Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Ottawa and Carolina, Atlanta, Florida and Nashville. The Sabres, Sens and Pens have all filed for bankruptcy in the last decade.

[Iggy72]

Iggy the key for the success of a NHL franchise is continued success, not location. Dallas has made the playoffs every season since the move from Minnesota. Florida, Tampa and Carolina had on ice successes (Florida in the finals in 1996 and Tampa and Carolina's Stanley Cup championships) but those successes were never built on. If these teams can make frequent appearances in the playoffs they will begin to build more solid fan bases.

And remember the tough times when Buffalo was missing the playoffs leading to the lockout.

Can't disagree with anything you said here.

One thing I would add is the fan base. Dallas has taken in the Stars, and they have become knowledgeable. Florida, Tampa, and Carolina have not, and Tampa relies a lot on Canadian snowbirds.

There are fans in Dallas and I would say San Jose who actually follow hockey as one of their favourite sports. I'm afraid that it's still a novelty in other cities.

Pax.
Iggy72

[ksl66]

I would vote yes, and I love papaduke's example of hockey taking root in early expansion markets.

Hockey is an easy sport to love if you followed it your entire life, but I could imagine if you were completely foriegn to it it might be at the very least tough to get a grasp of. A bunch of guys whose names you can't say, skating around chasing a small black thing you can't see on TV. Now we all know that is complete misrepresentation of our beloved game, but it is a rationale shared by many (especially those south of say Washington DC) And since most of the possible expansion locations fit into the southern demographic it will be at least a tough go in the early years (personally I think 15 years is a fair shake).

Take a kid who has an open mind watches the game as a 12 year old, likes the game starts playing street hockey with his buddies, bugs his parents to take him to games, gets hooked. Say it takes him five years to completely learn and understand the game as it is currently played, he is 17 years, hardly an age that is a good demographic as far as season ticket holders, age that kid 10 years he is 27, now take for granted that he has an good to average source of income and hasn't been scared away from the game by work stoppages and he is now beginning to enter the prime of his season ticket buying days.

Pappas argument is the kids from early expansion cities (30 some odd years ago) are starting to populate the high amatuer, minor and professional leagues is a good one. My argument is the same principle, but as far as the fans are concerned. The NHL has always (especially the Sabres) attempted to grow its fan base on a grass roots level, getting kids hooked at a young age and then hoping they will follow through there life's as lifelong hockey fans and pass it on to the following generation. That sounds great, but 15 years is a long time to have a struggling franchise, that is a long time to depend on northern transplants who either probably follow their old team or don't even like hockey.

My best comparison is NASCAR, I have not and likely will not ever watch a NASCAR race, mostly because I don't understand it and don't like cars in general. But my kids (4 &2) stand a much better chance of at least following NASCAR because they will have grown up with it, versus me who just became aware of it about 10 years ago.

I am not opposed to expansion especially it were in places like Seattle, Winnepeg, Hartford and Kansas City, Seattle will loose its NBA team and will be looking to fill a winter sports void and Kansas City has very passionate sports fans (besides the Royals, but who can blame those fans) 'Peg and Hartford had there teams ripped from them and who in this city can't understand that feeling (who wouldn't want the Whalers and Jets back in the league). I would be opposed to expansion in Las Vegas which is a transient city and its resident's would not take to the team, not to mention the gambling issue and Hamilton, basically just because it will hurt the Sabres.

[jlpubarch]

Dallas is the only team south of the Mason-Dixon that has proven it can support an NHL franchise. I can't believe I just used a Civil War reference for the NHL...

Pax.
Iggy72

Tampa Bay supports their team fine...full houses all the time.

The Capitals finally have something to be happy about again, and they'll do fine as well.

Atlanta even had decent attendance, despite the region.

[ckg68]

Just a couple of points on the last two posts....

KSL: Unless and until Seattle gets their arena situation settled,you'll NEVER see the NHL in that city-be it expansion or relocation. The WHL's Thunderbirds hit the eject button from the dump known as the Key Arena and are moving to a nice,new arena in the Seattle suburbs that only seats 6,000 or so. Las Vegas I would agree with,but for quite another reason: sports gambling. Besides,they have a great thing going with the ECHL's Wranglers(consistent winner,Kelly Cup finalist this year,passionate fans)...why would they want to water it down for the NHL?

jlp: If Tampa Bay didn't have all those snowbirds,I don't think the Bolts would have as many fans go through the gates as they do now.

[Papaduke]

Well expansion southwards is a direct result of the southern migration over the last couple decades seeking better weather and jobs. There are plenty of transplants to get these arenas rocking. We saw it in Tampa in 04 and Florida in 96. Prior to the outdoor games, the highest attendance for a game in the NHL was in Tampa when the Lightning played at Tropicana Field. I think it is still a playoff record.

[skoorah720]

the talent pool is just now starting to regain some momentum here in the NHL with the influx of talented young guys. An expansion would only waterdown the talent again...let's just leave things how they are OR move some teams to different areas.

[DropTheGloves]

This may seem off topic but it is just merely an observation. My older sis and her husband moved "down" to Virginia and you would be shocked at the amount of people from the North that live down there and follow hockey. The roots for hockey are being planted there. Who knows, more people moving south should create a larger fan base for hockey and a larger foundation to encourage growth in "non typical" regions. So thats why I say leave it at this amount of teams and see what happens.