State Steals Children

[anEinherjer]

Give the kids back. FFS.

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20080418/a_polygamy18.art.htm

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/viewpoints/stories/DN-henson_23edi.ART.State.Edition1.462e877.html

Judge Barbara Walther, who is overseeing the YFZ Ranch case, yesterday declared: "The court has ruled the conditions those children were in were not safe for the children. I did not make the facts that got this case into the courts."

Excuse me, Judge? You issued a sweeping, house-to-house search warrant based on a highly questionable anonymous call that turned out to be phony. You refused to allow individual hearings for children, grouping them together like cattle. You accepted the testimony of an expert on "cults" who only learned about FLDS from media accounts, rather than an academic who'd studied them professionally for 18 years.

You've ruled the existence of five girls between 16 and 19 who were pregnant or had children was evidence of systematic abuse, even though in Texas 16-year-olds can marry with parental consent. You've ruled young toddlers are in "immediate" danger because of their parents' beliefs or what might happen 15 years from now, not because anyone abuses them.

Give the damn kids back, Texas. Don't be stupid.

[sukie]

I agree.

[Julianna]

Well of corse they are going to deny they have been abused. I do not think that forcing teenage girls into a marriage with old crows is good. What kind of life is that?????

[chickie]

I don't agree. Right now we do not know ALL the FACTS, and to put those children back with their parents could be more harmful.

I may change my mind as more of this case unfolds.

Give them visitation, but that is it. Right not the court has to protect the welfare of the child. I know it seems mean, and not right, but it is what they have to do.

[TheGoodShepherd]

I feel sorry for those people. They should give the kids back.

The media has been sooo biased against them too, its disgusting.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Well of corse they are going to deny they have been abused. I do not think that forcing teenage girls into a marriage with old crows is good. What kind of life is that?????

What kind of stupid reasoning is this? Where does the 'of course' come from? Thats akin to me saying "of course he's going to deny killing him/her. i do not think killing is good. What kind of life is that?"

Where does it come from? Oh right. From you and your imaginations. I only point this out because I'm guessing thats exactly what the judge and prosecuting team based their decision on - their imaginations.

The government found a reason - any reason - to kidnap those kids, because their parents were 'different.'

Thats what this story is about.

[chickie]

What kind of stupid reasoning is this? Where does the 'of course' come from?

Oh right, just from you and your imaginations. I only point this out because I'm guessing thats exactly what the judge and prosecuting team based their decision on - their imaginations.

The government found a reason - any reason - to kidnap those kids, because their parents were 'different.'

not true - a child called in and said her husband raped her and beat her. That is all they need. They have to protect those kids right now.

[TheGoodShepherd]

not true - a child called in and said her husband raped her and beat her. That is all they need. They have to protect those kids right now.


So why wouldn't you arrest the individual and lay charges?

The government did not do that. The government chose to detain 400 other kids from the same 'neighbourhood.'

That sounds reasonable to you?

They were targeted because they were different.

End of story.

[Julianna]

Chill out Goodie! Wow! Are we having a bad one today?

As far as any reason, I do think, OF COURSE, that rape IS a good reason. Am I in touch with your story now?

[JayHall93]

CPS does not take children from homes unless they are in danger. Point Blank.

Get over it. The case will be investigated, and if there is nothing, then the kids will go back. No child was "stolen", or "kidnapped" get ****ing real . It's a burden on the state system, but the right thing to do for now.

[chickie]

So why wouldn't you arrest the individual and lay charges?

Why would one kidnap the 400 other kids in the same neighbourhood?

Because there is obviously going to be more cases.

Believe me, I feel horrible for all those kids and their parents, and I hope the parents do get their kids back.

But if they truly want what is best they will cooperate, and do everything they can to prove their innocents.

Right now the STATE has to protect all of the kids. They have to find out which kid belongs to which parent, and make sure it is safe and healthy for those kids to go back.

It is rough, I KNOW PERSONALLY, but that is what has to be done. The welfare of the child comes before ANYTHING else.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Chill out Goodie! Wow! Are we having a bad one today?

As far as any reason, I do think, OF COURSE, that rape IS a good reason. Am I in touch with your story now?

Ok. So if an allegation of rape is made in your community, detaining 400 kids from your neighbourhood is perfectly ok?

I can see this a mile away.

What we have here is a people being targeted by government attorneys trying to make a name for themselves and jumpstart their political careers.

[nehemiah]

CPS does not take children from homes unless they are in danger. Point Blank.that is NOT always true.

[chickie]

Ok. So if an allegation of rape is made in your community, detaining 400 kids from your neighbourhood is perfectly ok.

That is TOTALLY different and you know it.

They all lived together. You need to go and get some facts here and come back.

These people took other people's children.

Kicked boys out. This was and is a cult. They beat their woman and children. The mothers are not cooperating. if they gave their child's best interest in mind they would at least be cooperating.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Because there is obviously going to be more cases.

Believe me, I feel horrible for all those kids and their parents, and I hope the parents do get their kids back.

But if they truly want what is best they will cooperate, and do everything they can to prove their innocents.

Right now the STATE has to protect all of the kids. They have to find out which kid belongs to which parent, and make sure it is safe and healthy for those kids to go back.

It is rough, I KNOW PERSONALLY, but that is what has to be done. The welfare of the child comes before ANYTHING else.

If I rounded up all the children in your community, forced their parents to submit to 'tests', I bet I would find a lot of shit too.

It's clear which side you're on - the side of the guy or gal intending to use this event as politicial springboard.

[chickie]

CPS does not take children from homes unless they are in danger. Point Blank.
Get over it. The case will be investigated, and if there is nothing, then the kids will go back. No child was "stolen", or "kidnapped" get ****ing real . It's a burden on the state system, but the right thing to do for now.

Nehe is right here, this is NOT always true.

[chickie]

If I rounded up all the children in your community, forced their parents to submit to 'tests', I bet I would find a lot of shit too.

It's clear which side you're on - the side of the guy or gal intending to use this event as politicial springboard.

I am not on ANY side, right now there is not enough vaild information to this case.

Right now the concern should be on the children, and keeping them safe.

The state is doing exactly what they should be doing.

[TheGoodShepherd]

That is TOTALLY different and you know it.

They all lived together. You need to go and get some facts here and come back.

These people took other people's children.

Kicked boys out. This was and is a cult. They beat their woman and children. The mothers are not cooperating. if they gave their child's best interest in mind they would at least be cooperating.

They all lived together in a community, thats the bottom line.

I'm sorry they do not live in a single detached home, or a posh condo apartment.

What the hell does 'all living together' have to do with the allegation made?

Nothing, really. It was just the pre-text the government used for the mass round up.

[JayHall93]

that is NOT always true.

Whatever. It is. I've heard the stories.. boo hoo. IF you suck as a parent, and your kids get taken by CPS, it's the face in the mirror to blame!! 100% of the time.

[TheGoodShepherd]

I am not on ANY side, right now there is not enough vaild information to this case.

Right now the concern should be on the children, and keeping them safe.

The state is doing exactly what they should be doing.

Yes, you are.

You're siding with the state.

Otherwise you would not support the mass roundup of 400 kids.

What is going now is a tragedy and you're hanging these people because they're different.

[JayHall93]

They all lived together in a community, thats the bottom line.

I'm sorry they do not live in a single detached home, or a posh condo apartment.

What the hell does 'all living together' have to do with the allegation made?

Nothing, really. It was just the pre-text the government used.

The sun could shine and you would try to blame the government, get real.

[chickie]

Yes, you are.

You're siding with the state.

Otherwise you would not support the mass roundup of 400 kids.

What is going now is a tragedy and you're hanging these people because they're different.

I am not siding with the state, right NOW I feel that they are making the right decison, but I am HOPING the kids get to return to their mothers.

It is TOO EARLY to know where the children really belong.

[nehemiah]

Whatever. It is. I've heard the stories.. boo hoo. IF you suck as a parent, and your kids get taken by CPS, it's the face in the mirror to blame!! 100% of the time.:rofl:

sorry to have to inject reality into the discussion.

please get your knee back to jerking.

[anEinherjer]

not true - a child called in and said her husband raped her and beat her. That is all they need. They have to protect those kids right now.

And they found out that was, bluntly, a lie.

And still they keep the kids.

But if they truly want what is best they will cooperate, and do everything they can to prove their innocents.

Kind of the opposite of "innocent UNTIL proven guilty", isn't that?

Well of corse they are going to deny they have been abused. I do not think that forcing teenage girls into a marriage with old crows is good. What kind of life is that?????

16 is the legal age in Texas. The married ones were 16, from what I've read.

Why the hell would the kids all deny they were abused? That doesn't make any sense.

In Eldorado, no one alleges YFZ parents are themselves abusing children. Instead the allegation (in court, at least) is that they're teaching their kids that a woman's highest calling is giving birth and raising children and that it's acceptable to get married at an early age. Even if it were true, and the allegation was disputed, can this really be enough to seize children from their homes?

Read that whole paragraph a few times.

Let the weirdos have their damn kids back. My outrage-o-meter is cranking back up, nehemiah. I might start going all Aneurysm on this shit. :)

[anEinherjer]

So the allegations really are that they're marrying off the girls "too young".

So, fight that out in court. WHY THE HELL ARE YOU KEEPING THE 10 year olds? The 6 year olds?? The 3 year olds???? I don't think they'll be gettin' hitched any time soon....

[TheGoodShepherd]

I am not siding with the state, right NOW I feel that they are making the right decison, but I am HOPING the kids get to return to their mothers.

It is TOO EARLY to know where the children really belong.

You just admitted you agree with the government's justification for rounding up 400 kids.

Yet at the same time, you say you're not siding with the state.

Why don't you stop making a joke of this issue and start being serious.

Defend the justification for rounding up 400 children of a community because of one, two or three or even ten allegations.

Or shut the hell up.

[JayHall93]

:rofl:

sorry to have to inject reality into the discussion.

please get your knee back to jerking.

Funny shit. I just have seen it before where couples where boo hooing about their kids getting taken away. At some point, the parents have to take the responsibility.

[sahlensguy]

Since all were rounded up, all should have been in danger. I doubt this was even close to being true and innocent lives will be screwed up thanks to this absurd raid.

[chickie]

They DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS FOR THIS CASE YET. IT IS TOO SOON to tell.

In the meantime, I know it is hard, but this is what is best for the kids.

HOPEFULLY IN THE END, they will be returned to their parents. But right now the state has to take the childrens welfare first.

This is just how it goes - this is the largest case in hsitory, and they do not have all the facts yet.

[JayHall93]

They DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS FOR THIS CASE YET. IT IS TOO SOON to tell.

In the meantime, I know it is hard, but this is what is best for the kids.

HOPEFULLY IN THE END, they will be returned to their parents. But right now the state has to take the childrens welfare first.

This is just how it goes - this is the largest case in hsitory, and they do not have all the facts yet.


That's the whole damn point chickie. You hit it right on the head. IF there was no danger, they will be returned.

[nehemiah]

Funny shit. I just have seen it before where couples where boo hooing about their kids getting taken away. At some point, the parents have to take the responsibility.and i've watched first-hand as kids are removed for blatant lies.

but wateva.

[chickie]

So the allegations really are that they're marrying off the girls "too young".

So, fight that out in court. WHY THE HELL ARE YOU KEEPING THE 10 year olds? The 6 year olds?? The 3 year olds???? I don't think they'll be gettin' hitched any time soon....

Because the courts have that obligation to protect those kids.

It is too soon to know what is and what is not best for them.

[TheGoodShepherd]

They DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS FOR THIS CASE YET. IT IS TOO SOON to tell.

In the meantime, I know it is hard, but this is what is best for the kids.

HOPEFULLY IN THE END, they will be returned to their parents. But right now the state has to take the childrens welfare first.

This is just how it goes - this is the largest case in hsitory, and they do not have all the facts yet.

Clearly, you do not get it do you.

Are you really this oblivious?

Do you even realize what I'm trying to say to you? Or are you just playing stupid?

The government's 'fact check operation' is repulsive.

[chickie]

That's the whole damn point chickie. You hit it right on the head. IF there was no danger, they will be returned.

But they now have to make sure 100% that they are not putting the kids into harms way.

This is what happens when the courts get involved, but if those mothers truly want their children back, they better start cooperating.

[Tejasbillsfan]

Clearly, you do not get it do you.

Are you really this oblivious?

Do you even realize what I'm trying to say to you? Or are you just playing stupid?

Umm, the last sentence applies to you.

[chickie]

Clearly, you do not get it do you.

Are you really this oblivious?

Do you even realize what I'm trying to say to you? Or are you just playing stupid?

Clearly you don't. I have gone through the family court system. I know what it is like.

They are doing what they have to do.

All we can do is wait for the FACTS to come out. PERIOD.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Umm, the last sentence applies to you.


Get bent broom pusher.

[anEinherjer]

Because the courts have that obligation to protect those kids.

It is too soon to know what is and what is not best for them.

How can you defend taking kids away when there is no evidence or allegation that they are being abused?

[TheGoodShepherd]

Clearly you don't. I have gone through the family court system. I know what it is like.

They are doing what they have to do.

All we can do is wait for the FACTS to come out. PERIOD.

You're not too bright are you?

I'm talking about the way in which the government has sought to gather evidence.

Ok? Got it?

God, you're so dumb.

[Julianna]

Yes, you are.

You're siding with the state.

Otherwise you would not support the mass roundup of 400 kids.

What is going now is a tragedy and you're hanging these people because they're different.


Different? Your dam right they are different!
A bed was discovered inside a limestone temple that the men used to have sex with underage girls. How does that go in your neighborhood? Is that alright with you? Or maybe your alittle "different" too?

[TheGoodShepherd]

Different? Your dam right they are different!
A bed was discovered inside a limestone temple that the men used to have sex with underage girls. How does that go in your neighborhood? Is that alright with you? Or maybe your alittle "different" too?

1. Prove it.

2. Prove it.

And then justify how detaining children from other families that had nothing to do with it, is right.

[JayHall93]

How can you defend taking kids away when there is no evidence or allegation that they are being abused?

You must be one of the investigators down there, huh? What, no???

Let the situation work itself out. They didn't pull those kids out because they felt like it.

[JayHall93]

Get bent broom pusher.

LOL!!!

[chickie]

How can you defend taking kids away when there is no evidence or allegation that they are being abused?

I know this is difficult to understand. Once it enters the court system, it is like the kids are a free for all.

It sucks.

But they cannot award anyone custody of those kids until ALL the FACTS come out.

It sucks I know. But the state now has to wait for ALL the FACTS.

Nad I am sure Nehe knows this to be true.

[chickie]

You're not too bright are you?

I'm talking about the way in which the government has sought to gather evidence.

Ok? Got it?

God, you're so dumb.

it doesn't matter how they get their evidence.

Anyone can go into a courtroom file FALSE papers alleging abuse, and the courts have to gather ALL facts, before making a decision.

[TRIPLE P]

OMG this thread is hilarious.

So how many underage girls were forced to have sex... I've heard the legally married ones who were 16 years old had sex. Wheres the problem...the law is the law.

I read in this thread that "they don't have evidence" and "they can prove thier innocence" ....since when is that how things are done in America?

Funny stuff... posters who start threads titles "nannystate bedwetters" crying about courts protecting people and deciding whats best for people..... L.O.L.

[chickie]

OMG this thread is hilarious.

So how many underage girls were forced to have sex... I've heard the legally married ones who were 16 years old had sex. Wheres the problem...the law is the law.

I read in this thread that "they don't have evidence" and "they can prove thier innocence" ....since when is that how things are done in America?

Funny stuff... posters who start threads titles "nannystate bedwetters" crying about courts protecting people and deciding whats best for people..... L.O.L.

This is about CHILDREN and CHILD abuse.

[sukie]

You're not too bright are you?

I'm talking about the way in which the government has sought to gather evidence.

Ok? Got it?

God, you're so dumb.

TOS... Post not poster please.

[TRIPLE P]

This is about CHILDREN and CHILD abuse.

What CHILDREN were abused?

[Julianna]

1. Prove it.

2. Prove it.

And then justify how detaining children from other families that had nothing to do with it, is right.


Last time I was at the Ranch, I had temple sex with Grandpa Kettle and took an 8x10 photo just to remember the good times.


Sex Bed Found in YFZ Ranch Temple
Look it up Cowboy :)

[chickie]

What CHILDREN were abused?

That is just it before the state can return the children to their mothers - they have to prove there is NO abuse.

Period - there is no arguing about this until ALL the FACTS come out.

Right now the State HAS to have the Childrens Welfare in mind, I cannot repeat this enough. It sucks and no child should be away from their parent, but until these Mothers start cooperating, this is how it is going to be.

[JayHall93]

That is just it before the state can return the children to their mothers - they have to prove there is NO abuse.

Period - there is no arguing about this until ALL the FACTS come out.

Right now the State HAS to have the Childrens Welfare in mind, I cannot repeat this enough. It sucks and no child should be away from their parent, but until these Mothers start cooperating, this is how it is going to be.


Unfortunately this fact is falling on deaf ears.

[dilbert]

How do you prove NO abuse?

What would you do if the state took your kids and asked for proof of no abuse? Shouldn't they have to provide evidence first?

[chickie]

Unfortunately this fact is falling on deaf ears.

No shit man!

Thanks for the laugh!

[JayHall93]

Some of the kids were transported up here to N. Texas. It was on the local news last night. Reminded me of being back home in New York watching the amish people.

[chickie]

How do you prove NO abuse?

What would you do if the state took your kids and asked for proof of no abuse? Shouldn't they have to provide evidence first?

Not when it comes to kids. Sad but true.

These kids are going to go through several evulations, and child psych., and when they have the facts and no abuse is found, they are returned.

It is just how it goes. It is the sad, and the hardest thing for any parent to go through, but those mothers have got to start cooperating if they want their kids back.

At this point the more info the offer up, the quicker this will end.

[dilbert]

So you would be OK if the state took your kids tomorrow?

[uppy]

You're not too bright are you?

I'm talking about the way in which the government has sought to gather evidence.

Ok? Got it?

God, you're so dumb.

Chimp,why all the insults today ?

Please try to be nice

[TheGoodShepherd]

So you would be OK if the state took your kids tomorrow?

Just like GOPchickie said "She doesn't care how the government gets their evidence."

Those were her words, and no one else's.

[sahlensguy]

So you would be OK if the state took your kids tomorrow?

Sad but okay. That's nuts.

[TheGoodShepherd]

It doesn't matter how they get their evidence.


I'm going to remember you said this for a very long time.

Well, guess what?

The law clearly thinks how the government goes about getting their facts matters.

LOL at "It doesn't matter how they get their evidence."

[chickie]

So you would be OK if the state took your kids tomorrow?

I went through this - why do you think I know so much.

My ex-husband filed FALSE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE papers against me to try and get custody of our kids.

It took 2 YEARS for me to get my kids back. They day I was awarded custody - he took off and now only sees them fro 2 hours a week.

This is JUST HOW IT GOES. The courts have to protect the kids. Regardless of how sad it is. I cried for months because I hewould only let me see them when he would let me. But I cooperated, I maintained stability as BEST as I could, and I have my kids.

The mothers HAVE to start cooperating.

[Julianna]

So you would be OK if the state took your kids tomorrow?


Yes because the kids I have are the States kids and boy that last one is a cryer!

[chickie]

I'm going to remember you said this for a very long time.

Well, guess what?

The law clearly thinks how the government goes about getting their facts matters.

LOL at "It doesn't matter how they get their evidence."




You have NO CLUE about family law. please leave me alone.

[TheGoodShepherd]

I went through this - why do you think I know so much.

My ex-husband filed FALSE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE papers against me to try and get custody of our kids.

It took 2 YEARS for me to get my kids back. They day I was awarded custody - he took off and now only sees them fro 2 hours a week.

This is JUST HOW IT GOES. The courts have to protect the kids. Regardless of how sad it is. I cried for months because I hewould only let me see them when he would let me. But I cooperated, I maintained stability as BEST as I could, and I have my kids.

The mothers HAVE to start cooperating.

What the hell does your poor choice of men have to do with justifying the government rounding up 400 kids from the same community for a coupe allegations that their parents may even not be guilty of.

[dilbert]

I went through this - why do you think I know so much.

My ex-husband filed FALSE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE papers against me to try and get custody of our kids.

It took 2 YEARS for me to get my kids back. They day I was awarded custody - he took off and now only sees them fro 2 hours a week.

This is JUST HOW IT GOES. The courts have to protect the kids. Regardless of how sad it is. I cried for months because I hewould only let me see them when he would let me. But I cooperated, I maintained stability as BEST as I could, and I have my kids.

The mothers HAVE to start cooperating.


That is horrible what happened and I am sorry it happened to you.

But, is it good for the kids to take them away from good parents and put them into an unknown strange environment? what about the damage that can happen as a result?

Thinking about the children means having evidence and proof of the allegations.

[TRIPLE P]

That is just it before the state can return the children to their mothers - they have to prove there is NO abuse.

Period - there is no arguing about this until ALL the FACTS come out.

Right now the State HAS to have the Childrens Welfare in mind, I cannot repeat this enough. It sucks and no child should be away from their parent, but until these Mothers start cooperating, this is how it is going to be.


Do you belong to any clubs or social groups? Go to a particular church? Live in an apartment complex?

If someone in one of those groups was molesting kids should the children of everyone in the group be taken into state custody, given psychological tests, and held until they make sure the kids were safe?

[sahlensguy]

I went through this - why do you think I know so much.

My ex-husband filed FALSE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE papers against me to try and get custody of our kids.

It took 2 YEARS for me to get my kids back. They day I was awarded custody - he took off and now only sees them fro 2 hours a week.

This is JUST HOW IT GOES. The courts have to protect the kids. Regardless of how sad it is. I cried for months because I hewould only let me see them when he would let me. But I cooperated, I maintained stability as BEST as I could, and I have my kids.

The mothers HAVE to start cooperating.

The couts did not protect your kids.

[JayHall93]

What the hell does your poor choice of men have to do with justifying the government rounding up 400 kids from the same community for a coupe allegations that their parents may even not be guilty of.

If they are not guilty of anything, they will get their brood back.

Simply stated.

[sahlensguy]

If they are not guilty of anything, they will get their brood back.

Simply stated.

No harm done?

Wrong.

[TRIPLE P]

I went through this - why do you think I know so much.

My ex-husband filed FALSE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE papers against me to try and get custody of our kids.

It took 2 YEARS for me to get my kids back. They day I was awarded custody - he took off and now only sees them fro 2 hours a week.

This is JUST HOW IT GOES. The courts have to protect the kids. Regardless of how sad it is. I cried for months because I hewould only let me see them when he would let me. But I cooperated, I maintained stability as BEST as I could, and I have my kids.

The mothers HAVE to start cooperating.

They shouldn't have...

"Thats just how it goes" isn't an acceptable answer IMO.

[chickie]

That is horrible what happened and I am sorry it happened to you.

But, is it good for the kids to take them away from good parents and put them into an unknown strange environment? what about the damage that can happen as a result?

Thinking about the children means having evidence and proof of the allegations.

it doesn't matter. Whether it is false or whether it is true. The courts have to protect the children.

They don't know what the truth is. So until ALL FACTS come out they are going to do what they think is best.

It sucks, believe me, but in the end IF those mothers cooperate it will be worth it.

My kids are perfectly fine. My son had issues at first and wanted to sleep in my bed at night because he was afraid when he woke up I wouldn't be there, but he is FINE. I am a good mother, you love your kids and you go on.

These kids will be fine as long as the mothers keep their childrens BEST INTERESTS in mind.

Go out and look at the pics I post of my kids.

My daughter was 3 months old when this started for her. I went 15 days straight with out being able to see her, hold her, nothing. But I proved my ex to be a liar and I have them.

These mothers can do the same.

[chickie]

The couts did not protect your kids.

Yes they did.

that was a very difficult time for me.

It gave me time to keep my head straight.

The courts in the end helped me become a stronger person. I learned from it and I grew from it.

Hopefully the same will happed for thses mothers too.

[sahlensguy]

Yes they did.

that was a very difficult time for me.

It gave me time to keep my head straight.

The courts in the end helped me become a stronger person. I learned from it and I grew from it.

Hopefully the same will happed for thses mothers too.

The court gave custody to the wrong parent (thier dad) from what your telling me.

In the end you did what was best for your kids. Not the courts.

[chickie]

The court took your kids from the wrong parent (thier dad) from what your telling me.

In the end you did what was best for your kids. Not the courts.

No, he filed FALSE Papers accusing me of abuse. I never laid a hand on either one of my kids. The courts DO NOT know who is telling the truth and who is not.

So until ALL THE FACTS are presented, they will do what they feel is fit for the kids. He had Temp Custody of the kids for 15 days and I could not see or speak to them. My attorney proved he lied, the injuction was dismissed. But then for the next 2 years the kids, myself and him had to under go several evulations, and have a child pysch. make the reccomendation as to have should have custody of the kids.

He was found a liar, and made false accusations to gain custody, in the end my children are now with the RIGHT parent.

These people are going to go through the same thing, and in the end the children will be with the person who is going to have their best intersts in mind.

[JayHall93]

No harm done?

Wrong.

where did i say no harm done?

[sahlensguy]

No, he filed FALSE Papers accusing me of abuse. I never laid a hand on either one of my kids. The courts DO NOT know who is telling the truth and who is not.

So until ALL THE FACTS are presented, they will do what they feel is fit for the kids. He had Temp Custody of the kids for 15 days and I could not see or speak to them. My attorney proved he lied, the injuction was dismissed. But then for the next 2 years the kids, myself and him had to under go several evulations, and have a child pysch. make the reccomendation as to have should have custody of the kids.

He was found a liar, and made false accusations to gain custody, in the end my children are now with the RIGHT parent.

These people are going to go through the same thing, and in the end the children will be with the person who is going to have their best intersts in mind.

Truth doesn't always get settled in court. Some lawyers are more persuasive than others.

That's the sad truth.

[anEinherjer]

That is just it before the state can return the children to their mothers - they have to prove there is NO abuse.

And how, exactly do you prove a negative chickie?

You don't find it disgusting that centuries of common law are turned on their head, that these people now have to PROVE their innocence???

Period - there is no arguing about this until ALL the FACTS come out.

You can stop repeating this line. There is no such thing. "ALL the FACTS" never "come out".

All we have to go on are the allegations filed in court.

And there is no abuse being alleged by the prosecutors.

Ergo, there is no abuse and the kids should be returned home.



At this point the more info the offer up, the quicker this will end.

So funny.

"So, do you abuse your kids?"

"No!"

"Um... okay."

[anEinherjer]

Face it, the only reason these people are being persecuted is because of their goofy religious beliefs.

As goofy as I think they are, I think that sucks even more.

[chickie]

Truth doesn't always get settled in court. Some lawyers are more persuasive than others.

That's the sad truth.

Yes and this is true to.

However, that is why they need to go through evulations, and psych.

Look at it this way. Our court system is not designed to handle these matters. So they turn to the experts to make the right recommendation, this way it is not coming down to the attorneys.

My ex's attorney was an ass and would encourage him to keep my kids from me and not let me see them. This way I would go crazy and make a scene. I never gave in. Stayed strong and proved to them he was in the wrong.

the psych. will see through all of that.

These mothers have to cooperate, and show the courts they have their child best interests in mind. That is what they are looking for.

[chickie]

And how, exactly do you prove a negative chickie?

You don't find it disgusting that centuries of common law are turned on their head, that these people now have to PROVE their innocence???



You can stop repeating this line. There is no such thing. "ALL the FACTS" never "come out".

All we have to go on are the allegations filed in court.

And there is no abuse being alleged by the prosecutors.

Ergo, there is no abuse and the kids should be returned home.





So funny.

"So, do you abuse your kids?"

"No!"

"Um... okay."


Yes and like I said - my ex flat out lied. But the courts don't know what is true and what is not.

So until they gather, and I am sorry here, all the facts this is how it is going to be.

I hope the kids are returned to thier mothers. I really do.

[anEinherjer]

You claim that they're going to wait until "all the facts" are known... but then agree with sahlens that the truth is not always known.

Square that?

Your position is bizarre (again :)). You seem to be saying "there is no evidence they're abused, no accusation of abuse, the parents aren't going to be charged with abuse..... but they still have to keep the kids until they prove there was no abuse."

QUE PASA?!

Please answer with something different than "I'm sorry" and "all the facts". Thanks. :)

[Lucidvizion]

You "guilty until proven innocent" statists disgust me.

[chickie]

You claim that they're going to wait until "all the facts" are known... but then agree with sahlens that the truth is not always known.

Square that?

Your position is bizarre (again :)). You seem to be saying "there is no evidence they're abused, no accusation of abuse, the parents aren't going to be charged with abuse..... but they still have to keep the kids until they prove there was no abuse."

QUE PASA?!

Please answer with something different than "I'm sorry" and "all the facts". Thanks. :)

I will do my best for ya! ;)

We don't have all the evidence of whether there was or was not abuse. The mothers are not cooperating. Some have come forward and some have not. Once a person claims abuse, and in this case since there is so many children, the state has to protect the child. Until they get enough information from the mothers, other members and even the kids and fathers.

Some of the men cannot be found. It is clear that one can assume there has been some form of abuse to these mothers, daughters, sons and fathers.

Once the psychologists get into to this and get enough information, we will know more.

It is hard to give you what you want, because we don't know enough, but the state has to protect those kids.

I don't know how to explain this any other way.

[Lucidvizion]

Yes and like I said - my ex flat out lied. But the courts don't know what is true and what is not.

So until they gather, and I am sorry here, all the facts this is how it is going to be.

I hope the kids are returned to thier mothers. I really do.

Say you are a member of a church. One of your friends at church is accused of child abuse. The state comes in and takes away the kids of every single member of the church, including yours.

You think that is okay? You are okay with the precedent this is setting??

[chickie]

Say you are a member of a church. One of your friends at church is accused of child abuse. The state comes in and takes away the kids of every single member of the church, including yours.

You think that is okay? You are okay with the precedent this is setting??

Of course it is not okay. It is very hard to go through.

But as long as you cooperate, and give all information they are looking for, stay strong, focused, and maintain stability things will be fine. They will.

[chickie]

ok - here

One night my ex was suppose to bring my kids back to me, and instead he brought me a letter stating the kids were up in Pasco County at his sisters and I could go there to perform my motherly duties. In writting, I had this letter on writting.

I phoned the police, to get my kids, and because I had no legal document that the children could be in my care, I was screwed. He could leave them with WHO EVER he wanted too, and there was NOTHING I could do.

Right now, these others cannot even prove they should have custody of these kids.

No I don't agree with this, but this is how our legal system works with children.

It sucks, but if these mothers keep their kids in mind and fught for them, they will win.

I have total faith in them.

[Gibby]

CPS does not take children from homes unless they are in danger. Point Blank.

Get over it. The case will be investigated, and if there is nothing, then the kids will go back. No child was "stolen", or "kidnapped" get ****ing real . It's a burden on the state system, but the right thing to do for now.

Strange, personal experience tells me differently. The state must have found my childhood home to be a dangerous living situation because some bitch that my mother worked with called the gestapo...ummm....KGB....ummm..... OkHrana.... you know child and family services and they seized me for neglect because allegedly I was failing to thrive and there was undone laundry. First point, I was at where development charts said I should have been and secondly have you ever had a little rugrat? Clothes get cleaned but they don't stay that way. Anyway dear old mum had to fight the state for eighteen months to retain custody and thank God she won. Strangely enough the only abuse I remember getting as a child came in the foster home.

Seriously though, I think that whenever possible the state should seek to keep families together, something I would argue is not being done in Texas, and the authorities definitely need to be more objective and avoid entering the heavily charged media circus. Chimp is right on this and you are wrong.

[Gibby]

Never mind, just some Stalinist falsification going on here.

[JayHall93]

Strange, personal experience tells me differently. The state must have found my childhood home to be a dangerous living situation because some bitch that my mother worked with called the gestapo...ummm....KGB....ummm..... OkHrana.... you know child and family services and they seized me for neglect because allegedly I was failing to thrive and there was undone laundry. First point, I was at where development charts said I should have been and secondly have you ever had a little rugrat? Clothes get cleaned but they don't stay that way. Anyway dear old mum had to fight the state for eighteen months to retain custody and thank God she won. Strangely enough the only abuse I remember getting as a child came in the foster home.

Seriously though, I think that whenever possible the state should seek to keep families together, something I would argue is not being done in Texas, and the authorities definitely need to be more objective and avoid entering the heavily charged media circus. Chimp is right on this and you are wrong.


That's your opinion. Glad your mom got you back.

Getting back to the point...

The state is doing everything they can to ensure that the kids foster homes carry their traditions: food, not watching tv. They will go back home if found that they weren't abused. IMO, the state of Texas is doing the right thing.

And that's what it's about, opinion. Not right, wrong.

Oh, and i do have two beautiful children(one on the way as well) who my wife and i adore, cherish and take very good care of.

Strangely enough, CPS has never visited us. hhmmm....

[chickie]

I see that you have never had to fight for custody over your children, I hope to God that it stays that way for you.

Have you read this thread?????

[JayHall93]

Have you read this thread?????

WTF??

He must have skipped a few pages.:deal:

[chickie]

WTF??

He must have skipped a few pages.:deal:

ahhhh YEAH!

I think I will go ahead and skip the middle nothing going on in there....

[JayHall93]

Gibby

Assets: Brings a rabid, never say die attitude in support of whomever he is a fan of. Possesses a strong knowledge of history on any subject in both sports or politics. Can be a great teammate and is not always someone you want playing against you. Doesnt allow the thoughts or opinions of others of his ilk to sway his own view.

Flaws: Moody. Sometimes loses focus late in the thread and brings up random topics we've already heard (cough cough his wife/fiancee). Name-changing tendency can disrupt board chemistry.

Potential: If you want to crown his ass, then crown it.

This may be the answer.....

[sukie]

It's simple. The collective painbody that is self described as the norm for US society hates all that is different. They unconsciuosly paint a mental image of atrocities that are so far from the illusion of their reality that action "HAD" to be taken. All really rather silly and yet sad.

This thread is astounding at it's aimlessness.

[Gibby]

I went through this - why do you think I know so much.

My ex-husband filed FALSE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE papers against me to try and get custody of our kids.

It took 2 YEARS for me to get my kids back. They day I was awarded custody - he took off and now only sees them fro 2 hours a week.

This is JUST HOW IT GOES. The courts have to protect the kids. Regardless of how sad it is. I cried for months because I hewould only let me see them when he would let me. But I cooperated, I maintained stability as BEST as I could, and I have my kids.

The mothers HAVE to start cooperating.

my apologies for jumping the gun, that said you should clearly see that too often the state is too ****ing quick to see children seized way too quickly when they don't need to be and too slow to act when they are needed.

[35Pete]

CPS does not take children from homes unless they are in danger. Point Blank.

Get over it. The case will be investigated, and if there is nothing, then the kids will go back. No child was "stolen", or "kidnapped" get ****ing real . It's a burden on the state system, but the right thing to do for now.

Ohh yeah. How do you know this? Tell me.

Specifics if you don't mind.

thanks.

[35Pete]

How do you prove NO abuse?

What would you do if the state took your kids and asked for proof of no abuse? Shouldn't they have to provide evidence first?

So Dilbert. When did you stop beating your wife?

[35Pete]

Hallock.

Your argument is such horse shit.

Dilbert, Lucid, and especially anEin and Chimp are just plastering you.

Chickie. Get the hell out of this argument. Seriously.

I'm gonna watch this one for a while.

:popcorn:

[chickie]

Hallock.

Your argument is such horse shit.

Dilbert, Lucid, and especially anEin and Chimp are just plastering you.

Chickie. Get the hell out of this argument. Seriously.

I'm gonna watch this one for a while.

:popcorn:



Pete are you telling me I am not welcomed to state my opinions and how the court systems work here in America??

What you don't want actual FACTS of how our court systems work being brought into a debate or arguement out here?

I suppose if I posted as a conspiracy theorists you wouldn't be telling to to stay the hell out now would you?

[uppy]

Hallock.

Your argument is such horse shit.

Dilbert, Lucid, and especially anEin and Chimp are just plastering you.

Chickie. Get the hell out of this argument. Seriously.

I'm gonna watch this one for a while.

:popcorn:

Hallock,Chick,Pete is now the fourm judge

its up to him to decide who's opinion is valid

or not.He will inform us what is propanda or

empty rhetoric for he is the fourm intellectual

[35Pete]

Pete are you telling me I am not welcomed to state my opinions and how the court systems work here in America??

What you don't want actual FACTS of how our court systems work being brought into a debate or arguement out here?

I suppose if I posted as a conspiracy theorists you wouldn't be telling to to stay the hell out now would you?

Of course you are. I hate that reply chickie. I'm just offering advice. Your side is a losing battle. Have I ORDERED you out? Do I have that ability? I didn't know that I did.

But it is a losing battle. I'd have a real tough time arguing against just anEin's and Chimps points alone.

[35Pete]

Hallock,Chick,Pete is now the fourm judge

its up to him to decide who's opinion is valid

or not.He will inform us what is propanda or

empty rhetoric for he is the fourm intellectual

No. Instead I'll just come out and say what opinions are baseless and stupid and which ones are at least arguing over.

Wow. I am so empowered.

Quit crying. :)

[uppy]

I'd have a real tough time arguing against just anEin's and Chimps points alone.

So anEin and Chimp make their point and you feel you cant make an agrument -
you think other posters should not post
their opinion ?

Get a life Pete

[chickie]

Of course you are. I hate that reply chickie. I'm just offering advice. Your side is a losing battle. Have I ORDERED you out? Do I have that ability? I didn't know that I did.

But it is a losing battle. I'd have a real tough time arguing against just anEin's and Chimps points alone.

Point taken - I will stay out.

Now everone can be happy.

:)

Have a great night!

[35Pete]

So anEin and Chimp make their point and you feel you cant make an agrument -
you think other posters should not post
their opinion ?

Get a life Pete

No, you get a life. Quit putting words in my mouth. Strawman by definition.

[TheGoodShepherd]

No, he filed FALSE Papers accusing me of abuse. I never laid a hand on either one of my kids. The courts DO NOT know who is telling the truth and who is not.

So until ALL THE FACTS are presented, they will do what they feel is fit for the kids. He had Temp Custody of the kids for 15 days and I could not see or speak to them. My attorney proved he lied, the injuction was dismissed. But then for the next 2 years the kids, myself and him had to under go several evulations, and have a child pysch. make the reccomendation as to have should have custody of the kids.

He was found a liar, and made false accusations to gain custody, in the end my children are now with the RIGHT parent.

These people are going to go through the same thing, and in the end the children will be with the person who is going to have their best intersts in mind.

This is totally hilarious. We now have two really bizarre women trolling these boards. One female Range member in the past tried to use her adopted kids as leverage in a debate: the other female range member uses her shitty experience with men.

I implore you to seek a better route of debate other than a very pathetic and obvious attempt for sympathy GOPchickie.

Your divorce proceedings don't have squat to do with justifying a round up of children and forcing their parents to submit to DNA tests and you know it.

Get real.

[TheGoodShepherd]

But as long as you cooperate, and give all information they are looking for, stay strong, focused, and maintain stability things will be fine. They will.

****NEWSFLASH****

The government wants you to cooperate to make it easier for them to nail you.

Its funny how you think they're asking so they can 'help' you.

What planet are you living on?

LOL

[uppy]

Quit crying. :)

I'm not crying - I'm laughing.

Or more colloquially put you are providing

me with entertainment.

Just let me know if chimp or anEin opinions

should keep me out of a thread...you are

the judge after all,being the intellectual

Giant of the Range.

Pete,you make me laugh don't ever stop.

Better yet if a doctor tells you to take

Meds.....ingore him.Then explan to him how

the CIA inports drugs .

:rofl:

O the irony

[uppy]

****NEWSFLASH****

The government wants you to cooperate to make it easier for them to nail you.

Its funny how you think they're asking so they can 'help' you.

What planet are you living on?

LOL

Keep it up son - Pete thinks you are kicking

ass.

life is good

[Fergie]

Wow, that was a long one to get through! Ok, sorry chickie, but I will have to disagree with you on this one.

Read "Three Little Words" by Ashley Rhodes-Courter (I think that is how she spells her name). She was taken away by the state, and ended up in 14 different foster homes and 2 orphanages, and was ABUSED in foster care, her mom fought and fought, but in the end the "authorities" had her sign papers to terminate her parental rights....to do what was "best" for the child.

The State does not always know what is best, and they don't even have the tools to carry out what is best...example: enough foster homes.

Who do you think is taking care of these 400 children?? I would almost bet money that they are being treated worse now than they were before.

Every state has different laws, and I am sure Texas is different than Florida. I have to agree that your personal experience has nothing to do with this case...completely different situations. The state did not have your kids, your ex's family did....not saying that was right, but still different than this situation.

They "should" protect the one child that complained, or two or three,....but not all 400.

This is a very sad story and I hope it has a happy ending.

I don't know how to Thank posters as I am new...but I would like to Thank post #88 I believe it was by gibby (?)

[chickie]

Thanks BucNPats! ;)

I never stated that these kids were or weren't going to get better treatment being in the states custody. What is happening to them sucks. I was posting my personal experience, as to what happened to me, because when it comes to our family court system the children and the parents are not protected. It is a broken system. The courts are not designed to handle these situations, and it sucks.

But the bottomline here is this is the way the system is. THOUSANDS of women and children go through this DAILY, and no one speaks out for them. This is a quiet abuse within our system. But if these women want to get their kids back, they have to start cooperating, and do what is best for their children. Even if they are not with them, they still have to do what is best.

I too hope things work out and there is a happy ending. Maybe this case will open eyes up as to what other people go through, and the system can be changed, but until then this is how it goes. Welcome to the world of custody battles.

And I am sorry if I offend anyone, sometimes I can get emotional with my posts. I am woman after all, and the ONLY one who posts regularly out here! :)

[uppy]

Pete,now wants to tell you to stop posting.


They can't win with facts,so they try to shut down the debate.

Pete,has come to the conclusion that chimp & anEin opinions

are all that matters - end of subject.The fact is we all enjoy

the input you add to the fourm..don't let clowns like chimp and

pete drive you off.Most of us love hearing your thoughts and it

adds greatly to the fourm.

Never give up....when the sheep attack

[anEinherjer]

We don't have all the evidence of whether there was or was not abuse. The mothers are not cooperating.

But apparently the cops down there DO know enough that there was no abuse.

That is the point.

I didn't say anything the day they took the kids away. But now it is time for them to go home.

[uppy]

But apparently the cops down there DO know enough that there was no abuse.

That is the point.

I didn't say anything the day they took the kids away. But now it is time for them to go home.

Is it OK for the rest of us to add our thoughts-----Pete has let us know

what he feels ?

[chickie]

But apparently the cops down there DO know enough that there was no abuse.

That is the point.

I didn't say anything the day they took the kids away. But now it is time for them to go home.

Cops know shit! and I understand what you are saying, but NOT all of them are cooperating and telling the turth. So until the courts get to the bottom and find out the truth, it is what it is. Plus they are doing DNA testing to know who belongs to who. There is so much more to this story. It is not black and white, and it sucks.

FYI - this is why you never want the state to get involved!


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24294759/

AUSTIN - The number of children in Texas custody after being taken from a polygamist retreat stands at 462 because officials believe another 25 mothers from the compound are under 18.

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar said the girls initially claimed to be adults but are now in state custody. Earlier they had been staying voluntarily with their children at a shelter at the San Angelo Coliseum.

The official number of children taken from the ranch controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has been rising since a state raid three weeks ago. One reason was that some mothers under 18 claimed to be adults.


Read the rest of the story.

[chickie]

Is it OK for the rest of us to add our thoughts-----Pete has let us know

what he feels ?

Stop Uppy - I know you mean well, I am a big girl. :)

[dilbert]

Aparently so is Uppy.

[chickie]

They practiced polygmay - polygmay is illegal in the US, so they were breaking the law. And as much as everyone wants to be so upset over this, be glad Clinton wasn't handling it - they'd all be dead like the ones in Waco....

[Lucidvizion]

Stop Uppy - I know you mean well, I am a big girl. :)

I hear uppy likes the big ones. He likes his wimmenz squishy and cuddly.

[Fergie]

And I am sorry if I offend anyone, sometimes I can get emotional with my posts. I am woman after all, and the ONLY one who posts regularly out here! :)


Didn't offend me, but I do think you have tunnel vision on this one. There are other things that can happen beside "they have to cooperate to get their children back".

And there ARE several other cases that need to be looked at right now as well, and changes need to happen, maybe this case will be an eye opener for the rest of the country and children everywhere won't be taken away so quickly.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the point here is that they never should have been taken away in the first place, and I would hope any judge could see that and reverse the decision whether the mother's are cooperating or not. JMO. Maybe they need to take away all of the adult males, instead of the children!!

Just wait, chickie, I'll get in a groove here, and you won't be the ONLY female posting regularly....:)

[35Pete]

Aparently so is Uppy.

I know. LOL

I yelled at him and now he's all pouty. :D

[35Pete]

Didn't offend me, but I do think you have tunnel vision on this one. There are other things that can happen beside "they have to cooperate to get their children back".

And there ARE several other cases that need to be looked at right now as well, and changes need to happen, maybe this case will be an eye opener for the rest of the country and children everywhere won't be taken away so quickly.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the point here is that they never should have been taken away in the first place, and I would hope any judge could see that and reverse the decision whether the mother's are cooperating or not. JMO. Maybe they need to take away all of the adult males, instead of the children!!

Just wait, chickie, I'll get in a groove here, and you won't be the ONLY female posting regularly....:)


We can be a little rough at times. :)

[JayHall93]

Hallock.

Your argument is such horse shit.

Dilbert, Lucid, and especially anEin and Chimp are just plastering you.

Chickie. Get the hell out of this argument. Seriously.

I'm gonna watch this one for a while.

:popcorn:

LMAO

plastering me with their version of bullshit?

[35Pete]

LMAO

plastering me with their version of bullshit?

I've got a great book for you buddy.

<a href="http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/"><b>The Authoritarians</b></a>

I'm not being cute. You REALLY should read this. You'd be stunned. It's 200+ pages but is a great read.

A psychological study of authoritarian behavior in the United States and the people that feed it and enable it.

Mostly military types and christian fundies.

[JayHall93]

I've got a great book for you buddy.

<a href="http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/"><b>The Authoritarians</b></a>

I'm not being cute. You REALLY should read this. You'd be stunned.

I probably would be stunned by all the bullshit.

I'm not being cute. I actually may read it.

On second thought, i saw the university of manitoba on the front page. I'm not reading any canadian wacko shit.

[35Pete]

I probably would be stunned by all the bullshit.

I'm not being cute. I actually may read it.

On second thought, i saw the university of manitoba on the front page. I'm not reading any canadian wacko shit.

Xenophobic?

[JayHall93]

Xenophobic?

Hardly.

Just a person who has an opinion that won't be swayed by bullshit conspiracy.

However, I do love to read. Maybe i'll read the damn thing and give you the greatest book report known to man.

[uppy]

Aparently so is Uppy.

:rofl:

Great shot !

[Fergie]

We can be a little rough at times. :)


That's alright, I will try not to take it personally! :)

[35Pete]

Hardly.

Just a person who has an opinion that won't be swayed by bullshit conspiracy.
However, I do love to read. Maybe i'll read the damn thing and give you the greatest book report known to man.

My theories are WAY more plausible than the crap that your authorities tell you to believe.

Where shall we start? Why don't we talk about it over a piece of yellowcake?

[JayHall93]

My theories are WAY more plausible than the crap that your authorities tell you to believe.

Where shall we start? Why don't we talk about it over a piece of yellowcake?

U3O8

Let's roll.

[chickie]

U3O8

Let's roll.

Did you get Lisa Beamer's permission to use this line first?? LOL! :)

[JayHall93]

Did you get Lisa Beamer's permission to use this line first?? LOL! :)

Dosen't that phrase belong to the government who made the fake phone calls? :)

:deadhorse2:

[TheGoodShepherd]

Wait...I have an idea.

Can we please hear about the pathetic life and pathetic choices a certain female member of the range made with men?

Then, lets try to link that with the State detaining 400 kids.

I mean, that's sooooo relevant.

[sukie]

Past unconscious choices are relevant?

[TheGoodShepherd]

Past unconscious choices are relevant?

In this case they are, you're damn right.

I don't want to hear about it.

It's pathetic, It's an obvious plea for sympathy and has nothing to do with the argument.

[Julianna]

Wait...I have an idea.

Can we please hear about the pathetic life and pathetic choices a certain female member of the range made with men?

Then, lets try to link that with the State detaining 400 kids.

I mean, that's sooooo relevant.


Again Mr. Shepherd? Are we having a bad day again? Pathetic life? Pathetic choices? I guess I was away from the Range alittle too long because I had no idea you were crowned God.

And just for the record I am glad those POOR children were taken from that PATHETIC life that the females were FORCED to live! Imagine a females life being told that your highest honor is bearing children? That is your purpose? Now that Sir is PATHETIC!

[sukie]

In this case they are, you're damn right.

I don't want to hear about it.

It's pathetic, It's an obvious plea for sympathy and has nothing to do with the argument.

Nothing that is unconscious is really relevant. You can pick and chose slices of what is nothing more than a mental story of someones past but that is nothing more than a tale.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Again Mr. Shepherd? Are we having a bad day again? Pathetic life? Pathetic choices? I guess I was away from the Range alittle too long because I had no idea you were crowned God.

And just for the record I am glad those POOR children were taken from that PATHETIC life that the females were FORCED to live! Imagine a females life being told that your highest honor is bearing children? That is your purpose? Now that Sir is PATHETIC!

Wtf is that post supposed to be about!?

Listen to yourself.

Try to make sense.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Nothing that is unconscious is really relevant. You can pick and chose slices of what is nothing more than a mental story of someones past but that is nothing more than a tale.

The tale is not relevant to the debate. Not at all.

So why bring it up?

Why bring up how big a shitty life you've led?

Oh wait a minute...its because she was trying to get sympathy for her point of view and nothing more.

[Julianna]

Wait...I have an idea.

Can we please hear about the pathetic life and pathetic choices a certain female member of the range made with men?

Then, lets try to link that with the State detaining 400 kids.

I mean, that's sooooo relevant.


WTF is this post about? Trying to get a rise of Chickie

[sukie]

Trying to get sympathy is unconscious ego craving... That is exactly it.

[chickie]

it is NOT an attempt to seek sympathy.

And you are right mine is not relevant, however this is the reality of our court systems, and that is ALL I was trying to get across, and again I am sorry for allowing myself to get emotional over this one. I was in the wrong.

Our court systems were not designed for family issues and matters, and until that is changed, this is the way it goes. I understand what you are saying chimp - I do. What has happened to these kids is wrong, and I wish someone would do something, so that not ONLY these kids don't have to go through this, but also so that OTHER families don't have to go through this.

It is a nightmare. Maybe since this case is so huge, things will change, who knows, only time will tell.

[TheGoodShepherd]

WTF is this post about? Trying to get a rise of Chickie

Copying my posts now?

Chickie made a claim. That it does not matter how the State procures its evidence. Thats what she said, those were her words.

Well, I think it does matter. I think its very important how the State goes about gathering facts.

You know what her response was? Something about her pathetic little life arguing in court with her man.

Its obvious. She had nothing to say so she tried to fake cry with some pathetic sob story about men screwing her over in the past.

Not only is it beyond classless to bring up personal shit in a message board, but to call your ex-man a loser or low life when he is not even here to defend himself is classic.

More importantly and to the point though. What the hell does that have to do with justifying her claim that "it does not matter" how the state goes about gathering facts.

Either defend your position or get the hell out of this thread.

[Julianna]

Do not be sorry! You gave your soul and these clowns stomped on it. I bet if the shoe was on the male foot what others would had said.

Oh Goodie did you get that or are you doing the WTF scratching your ass?

[JayHall93]

Copying my posts now?

Chickie made a claim. That it does not matter how the State procures its evidence. Thats what she said, those were her words.

Well, I think it does matter. I think its very important how the State goes about gathering facts.

You know what her response was? Something about her pathetic little life arguing in court with her man.

Its obvious. She had nothing to say so she tried to fake cry with some pathetic sob story about men screwing her over in the past.

Not only is it beyond classless to bring up personal shit in a message board, but to call your ex-man a loser or low life when he is not even here to defend himself is classic.

More importantly and to the point though. What the hell does that have to do with justifying her claim that "it does not matter" how the state goes about gathering facts.

Either defend your position or get the hell out of this thread.

I'm pretty sure her position was already spelled out in crayola for ya

[Julianna]

That's Red Crayola to you

[JT]

Why don't you shut the hell up...have some damn respect for fellow posters..they are entitled to there opinion. Don't tell anyone to shut up..its rude and childish..grow up. And my opinion...damn right they should have removed the 400 plus children...there is no sanity over there..no guidance and no hope for a future. Do you really think Shep that the women over there are free to do as they please??? Do you think they honestly want to have five husbands and 15 children? Yet another place you should attend...why don't you go over there and enjoy..maybe get yourself a half dozen wives and maybe 30 or 40 kids for yourself. Then when the males get to about 12 you can kick them out on there own. Sounds like a place for you honestly...on your way over to Syria why don't you stop by Texas and join the fight for whats right in this world.


You just admitted you agree with the government's justification for rounding up 400 kids.

Yet at the same time, you say you're not siding with the state.

Why don't you stop making a joke of this issue and start being serious.

Defend the justification for rounding up 400 children of a community because of one, two or three or even ten allegations.

Or shut the hell up.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Why don't you shut the hell up...have some damn respect for fellow posters..they are entitled to there opinion. Don't tell anyone to shut up..its rude and childish..grow up. And my opinion...damn right they should have removed the 400 plus children...there is no sanity over there..no guidance and no hope for a future. Do you really think Shep that the women over there are free to do as they please??? Do you think they honestly want to have five husbands and 15 children? Yet another place you should attend...why don't you go over there and enjoy..maybe get yourself a half dozen wives and maybe 30 or 40 kids for yourself. Then when the males get to about 12 you can kick them out on there own. Sounds like a place for you honestly...on your way over to Syria why don't you stop by Texas and join the fight for whats right in this world.

Another pathetic attempt to inject me personally into the argument.

Get another gimmick. You're getting very boring.

[JT]

Another pathetic attempt to inject me personally into the argument.

Get another gimmick. You're getting very boring.

when you stop injecting others into your posts then I will do the same. Telling someone to shut up is getting personal...what do you call it ? your lame..so are your threads and posts. Why don't you come back at my shep...I told you WHY I did not like what was going on in Texas....did you miss that part of the post??????? or are you just looking for a reason to call what you disagree with a gimmick?

[Fergie]

The tale is not relevant to the debate. Not at all.

So why bring it up?

Why bring up how big a shitty life you've led?

Oh wait a minute...its because she was trying to get sympathy for her point of view and nothing more.


I agree the tale is not relevant to the debate, as I stated previously.

However, I certainly don't think she is looking for sympathy, what I take from her posts is that she expects everyone in a similar "situation" to have to deal with things the exact same way she had to deal with things. Which is impossible given that EVERY situation is different and needs to be handled differently by all parties.

[comericatigers]

anEinherjer says: Give the damn kids back, Texas. Don't be stupid.

TheGoodShepherd says: I feel sorry for those people. They should give the kids back. The media has been sooo biased against them too, its disgusting.
__________________________________________________ ______________


This news website

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90B2K480&show_article=1

says....

Officials: 31 of 53 girls from sect ranch have been pregnant

SAN ANTONIO (AP) - Texas child welfare officials say more than half the teen girls swept into state custody from a polygamist sect's ranch have been pregnant.
Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.

State officials took custody of all 463 children at the Yearning For Zion Ranch more than three weeks ago after a raid prompted by calls to a domestic violence hotline.

Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90B2K480&show_article=1
__________________________________________________ ______________

Hmm and that's the number for pregnancy. Lord knows how much underage sex went on.

:popcorn:

[anEinherjer]

Well, "Lord knows" so I guess we have to arrest everyone. In fact, just burn it all down.

[35Pete]

Well, "Lord knows" so I guess we have to arrest everyone. In fact, just burn it all down.

If you make the net wide enough then you'll get all the bad guys.

Keep your eye off the ball anEin!!!

[comericatigers]

I am amazed how some of you want to save everyone from poverty and the addictions that they have "all caused" of course by "whitey", but when the state comes to the plate and saves girls from molestation they cry abuse of government power. You guys are too much, almost comical, and in reality pretty sick.

[35Pete]

I am amazed how the liberals want to save everyone from poverty and the addictions that they have "all caused" of course by "whitey", but when the state comes to the plate and saves girls from molestation they cry abuse of government power. You guys are too much, almost comical, and in reality pretty sick.

anEin and I are liberals?

Why are you oversimplifying this down to the intellectually embarrassing "us vs. them" LCD?

[comericatigers]

If you make the net wide enough then you'll get all the bad guys.

Keep your eye off the ball anEin!!!

And if you make it narrow enough, you let some bad guys slip through the cracks. Keep your eye on the abuse of power Pete, forget about the abuse of children.

[35Pete]

And if you make it narrow enough, you let some bad guys slip through the cracks. Keep your eye on the abuse of power Pete, forget about the abuse of children.

Ohh yes. We must never forget about "the children".


:barf:

[comericatigers]

anEin and I are liberals?

Why are you oversimplifying this down to the intellectually embarrassing "us vs. them" LCD?

I changed it Pete. I shouldn't call names. But you have "narrowly focused" on my post, so you are sticking to your roots.

[35Pete]

I changed it Pete. I shouldn't call names. But you have "narrowly focused" on my post, so you are sticking to your roots.

How's that?

[comericatigers]

Ohh yes. We must never forget about "the children".


:barf:

Yeh just forget about the men and families that abused them too. In the name of government, who cares.

[comericatigers]

How's that?

The disgust and yet love many have for governmental power on this board.

[35Pete]

The disgust and yet love many of have for governmental power on this board.

You didn't address my question.

[comericatigers]

You didn't address my question.

Yes I have.

[35Pete]

Yes I have.

I have NO love whatsoever for governmental power.

I'm the biggest advocate of decentralization of power that there is here, save anEin.

So. You didn't answer my question, did you?

[comericatigers]

I have NO love whatsoever for governmental power.

I'm the biggest advocate of decentralization of power that there is here, save anEin.

So. You didn't answer my question, did you?

I don't understand "save anEin"

And Pete, you feel that the government should not be responsible to solve any of societies ills? I'll repeat, any.

[35Pete]

I don't understand "save anEin"

And Pete, you feel that the government should not be responsible to solve any of societies ills? I'll repeat, any.

Can you name one that they have? One?

[comericatigers]

Can you name one that they have? One?

Nope. Most government programs breed dependency. Who do you think is responsible for societies ills like cyclical poverty?

[35Pete]

Nope. Most government programs breed dependency. Who do you think is responsible for societies ills like cyclical poverty?

Corporatism?

[comericatigers]

More info from the Buffalo News


More than half the teen girls taken from a polygamist compound in west Texas have children or are pregnant, state officials said Monday.

A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. Two of those are pregnant now, he said; it was unclear whether either of those two already have children.

"It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive," he said.

State officials took custody of all 463 children at the ranch controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, saying a pattern of teen girls forced into underage "spiritual" marriages and sex with much older men created an unsafe environment for the sect's children.

Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.

A call seeking comment from FLDS spokesman Rod Parker was not immediately returned. Church officials have denied that any children were abused at the ranch and say the state's actions are a form of religious persecution.

Civil-liberties groups and lawyers for the children have criticized the state for sweeping all the children, from nursing infants to teen boys, into foster care when only teen girls are alleged to have been sexually abused.

No one has been charged since the raid, which was prompted by a series of calls to a domestic abuse hotline, purportedly from a 16-year-old forced into a marriage recognized only by the sect with a man three times her age. That girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the call was a hoax.

On Monday, CPS also revised its total count of children in state custody to 463, up one from Friday. Azar said the change resulted from finally getting the children out of the San Angelo Coliseum and into foster facilities around the state, where they were able to get a more accurate count.

Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys.

The sect, which broke from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints more than a century ago, believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven. Its leader, Warren Jeffs, is revered as a prophet. Jeffs was convicted last year in Utah of forcing a 14-year-old girl into marriage with an older cousin

[35Pete]

So Comerica. I guess catching a few dolphin in the tuna net is OK with you, huh?

[comericatigers]

So Comerica. I guess catching a few dolphin in the tuna net is OK with you, huh?

:rofl:

Yeh, that's it.

Pull the kids out, figure out what the hell is going on, and then go from there.

Pete, what would have happened if the government didn't do anything and it was documented that a girl asked for help?

A lawsuit will and/or would have occurred either way. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[35Pete]

:rofl:

Yeh, that's it.

Pull the kids out, figure out what the hell is going on, and then go from there.

Pete, what would have happened if the government didn't do anything and it was documented that a girl asked for help?

A lawsuit will and/or would have occurred either way. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Well. Did that happen?

Did ALL of them ask for help? So to be safe, we'll **** up all of their lives to save a few.

You should read The Authoritarians.

Good book. It's your biography.

[comericatigers]

Well. Did that happen?

Did ALL of them ask for help? So to be safe, we'll **** up all of their lives to save a few.

You should read The Authoritarians.

Good book. It's your biography.

That is your error.

31 of 53 teen girls (14-17) at FLDS ranch are pregnant or had a baby. We are not ****ing up their lives.

[35Pete]

That is your error.

31 of 53 teen girls (14-17) at FLDS ranch are pregnant or had a baby. We are not ****ing up their lives.

So ALL of them were saved? You know this for sure?

[anEinherjer]

200+ male children's lives are ****ed up and you KNOW they weren't pregnant.....

Comerica: Give me an example where Pete or I have ever advocated FOR gov't intervention.

[chickie]

Would you guys have rather the raid happened like it did in Waco....just curious?

I think they are handling this one MUCH better.

[35Pete]

Would you guys have rather the raid happened like it did in Waco....just curious?

I think they are handling this one MUCH better.

So. A regular ****-up is an improvement over a catastrophic cluster ****up?

:hmm:

You have a wee bit of authoritarian thinking here chickie. Work with me. We'll get it out of you. ;)

[35Pete]

200+ male children's lives are ****ed up and you KNOW they weren't pregnant.....

Comerica: Give me an example where Pete or I have ever advocated FOR gov't intervention.

I'll bite. There is one use of government power that I am for. I've advocated using government to break up the corporotacracy and re-establishing a free market. But in actuality what that is, is effectively getting back to our roots of effective limited representative government. Just like Jimmy Madison wanted.

Because once you break the power of the ruling class, away goes the welfare state (effectively) and the dependance on gov't. TRUE free markets are efficient and productive. Because cartels use gov't to preserve and expand their cartels, beat down competition with strategic legislation packaged as "feel-good help the people crap" , and limit participation in the markets.

They love the welfare state. Get the serfs to take care of the "useless eaters" (their view of the poor) that their inefficient system of gov't creates.

Problem: If the ruling class owns gov't then how the hell do you get gov't to shut down their centralized power?

[chickie]

So. A regular ****-up is an improvement over a catastrophic cluster ****up?

:hmm:

You have a wee bit of authoritarian thinking here chickie. Work with me. We'll get it out of you. ;)

ROLFLMAO!!!

See there is HOPE for me after all!!!!

:)

[chickie]

So. A regular ****-up is an improvement over a catastrophic cluster ****up?

:hmm:

You have a wee bit of authoritarian thinking here chickie. Work with me. We'll get it out of you. ;)

and hey it is an improvement...so that is always a good thing, no? :)

[35Pete]

and hey it is an improvement...so that is always a good thing, no? :)

No. It's not always a good thing.

An improvement can still be crap, right?

[chickie]

No. It's not always a good thing.

An improvement can still be crap, right?

I don't know it depends.

When you see a glass with only 1/2 liquid - is it 1/2 full or 1/2 empty? :)

I guess it all depends on how you want to view it.

[35Pete]

I don't know it depends.

When you see a glass with only 1/2 liquid - is it 1/2 full or 1/2 empty? :)

I guess it all depends on how you want to view it.

Depends. If it's my glass and someone drank half of it then it is definitely half empty.

If I am building a business and I am almost profitable then it is half full.

[chickie]

Depends. If it's my glass and someone drank half of it then it is definitely half empty.

If I am building a business and I am almost profitable then it is half full.

So I guess then you think it is an improvement since Waco? :)

[35Pete]

So I guess then you think it is an improvement since Waco? :)

Someone spilled my glass.

[chickie]

Here everyone.....do some reading here Warren Jeffs, and tell me these children were not abused and the state hed NO reason to shut this shit hole down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs

[JayHall93]

Here everyone.....do some reading here Warren Jeffs, and tell me these children were not abused and the state hed NO reason to shut this shit hole down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs

It's safe to say that the evidence behind the children being taken is coming out, and voila. Looks like there was some abuse! (GASP!) Big surprise, right?

All those young teenagers being forced to have sex and having children. Their lives are ****ed.

[35Pete]

It's safe to say that the evidence behind the children being taken is coming out, and voila. Looks like there was some abuse! (GASP!) Big surprise, right?

All those young teenagers being forced to have sex and having children. Their lives are ****ed.

Thanks for proving my point.

[JimKelly12203]

It blows my mind that they took those kids away from their mothers. Totally blows my mind! The fathers on the other hand... i could care less if they lined them all up and executed them.

Those Mother*********s set themselves up to rape 15 year old girls. Like, lots of them. They impregnated them ASAP and taught them to be affraid of the outside world. They physically and sexually abused them. They trained the girls to comply with the system. They enslaved the sons to build homes durring the housing bubble so that scumbags like Jeffs could line his pockets.

Then they kicked 80% of them out of their little society (can't have too many boys when each man has 10 teenage wives).

I have no sympathy for the elder men in that sect. They're criminals. Go read up on these wack jobs if for a second you get visions of the first amendment running through your heads.

Still... taking the kids away from their mothers (their mothers who were also the victims of this cult)? WTF are they thinking?

Screw the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints. And screw the Texas State Gov't IMO. Those kids belong with their moms. They need their moms and their moms need them. They're all each other's got.

Shame on Texas. I think they started out doing the right thing. But they took it too far.

[35Pete]

It blows my mind that they took those kids away from their mothers. Totally blows my mind! The fathers on the other hand... i could care less if they lined them all up and executed them.

Those Mother*********s set themselves up to rape 15 year old girls. Like, lots of them. They impregnated them ASAP and taught them to be affraid of the outside world. They physically and sexually abused them. They trained the girls to comply with the system. They enslaved the sons to build homes durring the housing bubble so that scumbags like Jeffs could line his pockets.

Then they kicked 80% of them out of their little society (can't have too many boys when each man has 10 teenage wives).

I have no sympathy for the elder men in that sect. They're criminals. Go read up on these wack jobs if for a second you get visions of the first amendment running through your heads.

Still... taking the kids away from their mothers (their mothers who were also the victims of this cult)? WTF are they thinking?

Screw the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints. And screw the Texas State Gov't IMO. Those kids belong with their moms. They need their moms and their moms need them. They're all each other's got.

Shame on Texas. I think they started out doing the right thing. But they took it too far.

Well said.

[JimKelly12203]

Just a little update. These people were seriously derranged. Tough situation either way you shake it, but some of this stuff is disturbing. Either way, the kids belong with their moms.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24388249/

[chickie]

Just a little update. These people were seriously derranged. Tough situation either way you shake it, but some of this stuff is disturbing. Either way, the kids belong with their moms.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24388249/

And that is fine. give them back to their mothers, but lets make sure that they recieve the therapy that is going to be needed?

[JayHall93]

If their mothers are going to run back to the men, then don't give them back. Now, if the mothers stay away from the group; absolutetly give them back. It won't make any sense to give them back, only for the moth