My Conclusion: Obama is Our Only Hope

[anEinherjer]

Man, I read that title and I cringe. That whole "only hope" hyperbole normally makes my skin crawl. Voting for modern liberals usually makes my skin crawl.

But in this case, it's true. We simply can't keep cruising along as we are toward financial and moral ruin.

But anEin, you don't give a crap about anything, you're a libertarian! I hear you typing. Not true, but let's consider for the moment that the U.S. is spending more than anyone ever in HISTORY on "defense".

It's government spending. It's not helping our economy. It's sucking the blood from us all to pay for what - another 500 lb bomb? More armor? For what? A few pissant brown folks who are pretty much mad at our previous military-industrial complex adventures?

EVEN IF you buy that Islamic-driven "terror" is an important target to be squashed - and believe me as a strident atheist I'm with you if only for that whole Danish cartoon fiasco from a couple years ago - there just aren't that many of 'em!

Surely the USSR and the Cold War was more interesting than these idiots living in caves who can't even blow up a Wal-Mart to **** with America.

Justin Raimondo has a cogent essay defining our new "imperial class" and I agree with 99.99% of what he writes: http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12343

Go read it.

In the meantime, let me get back to our mess of an electoral system, and the four men :) currently standing to be the next President, and what they mean for our future as residents of the world:

1. Huckabee. Man, he's more clueless than most. He doesn't do money, he does miracles... or something like that. A guy so overtly religious is going to be easily swayed by the M-I complex (particularly the Lockheed-and-pals paid for lobbyists) that the Islamofascists are somehow more dangerous than anything the world has EVER seen. He'll keep up the good fight. The only prayer (sic) for him is that he somehow remembers the teachings of the guy he supposedly follows.

2. Hillary. Some might claim she's not cut from the same cloth as Bill, but I don't buy it. We saw Bill's work to help the imperial class - his adventures in the Balkans, etc. A Hillary Presidency might slow down the growth slightly, but her votes of expediency in the Senate give me no hope that she'll actually end the "War on Terror".

3. McCain. Ye gods. Read Raimondo's column and check out the deep reporting Matt Welch did for his book "The Myth of a Maverick". If he is somehow elected.... :attn:

4. Barack. Sure he has his issues. Sure, he's been working the political system to get himself into position to run. I'm sure he's got all kinds of people behind the scenes pulling the strings. But at least we know he's an outsider to the complex. He's actually voted anti-war from the start (whether he did it for the right reasons, at least it gives him the backbone to make decisions for the right reasons now).

You all know Barack's not my #1 choice. Normally I'd be having more fun trying to find out which man the LP would put out there to get their 380,000 votes. But look at the likely options available to us and consider the absolute horror of losing this country and all that I have worked for to interminable national debt, because our leaders help only to enrich the few whom DoD touches.

I will vote for Obama and be proud to do so.

[micknaboz]

4. Barack. Sure he has his issues. Sure, he's been working the political system to get himself into position to run. I'm sure he's got all kinds of people behind the scenes pulling the strings. But at least we know he's an outsider to the complex. He's actually voted anti-war from the start (whether he did it for the right reasons, at least it gives him the backbone to make decisions for the right reasons now).



Actually he was'nt there from the start. For the initial authorization that is.
Somehow I think it took a lot less courage for a little known state legislator to stand against the Iraq War Resolution, than it did for a US Senator to do so at the time.

[ticatfan3]

He has no experience and will be a puppet to who ever runs him ,just like GW.

[pmoon6]

Man, I read that title and I cringe. That whole "only hope" hyperbole normally makes my skin crawl. Voting for modern liberals usually makes my skin crawl.

But in this case, it's true. We simply can't keep cruising along as we are toward financial and moral ruin.

But anEin, you don't give a crap about anything, you're a libertarian! I hear you typing. Not true, but let's consider for the moment that the U.S. is spending more than anyone ever in HISTORY on "defense".

It's government spending. It's not helping our economy. It's sucking the blood from us all to pay for what - another 500 lb bomb? More armor? For what? A few pissant brown folks who are pretty much mad at our previous military-industrial complex adventures?

EVEN IF you buy that Islamic-driven "terror" is an important target to be squashed - and believe me as a strident atheist I'm with you if only for that whole Danish cartoon fiasco from a couple years ago - there just aren't that many of 'em!

Surely the USSR and the Cold War was more interesting than these idiots living in caves who can't even blow up a Wal-Mart to **** with America.

Justin Raimondo has a cogent essay defining our new "imperial class" and I agree with 99.99% of what he writes: http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12343

Go read it.

In the meantime, let me get back to our mess of an electoral system, and the four men :) currently standing to be the next President, and what they mean for our future as residents of the world:

1. Huckabee. Man, he's more clueless than most. He doesn't do money, he does miracles... or something like that. A guy so overtly religious is going to be easily swayed by the M-I complex (particularly the Lockheed-and-pals paid for lobbyists) that the Islamofascists are somehow more dangerous than anything the world has EVER seen. He'll keep up the good fight. The only prayer (sic) for him is that he somehow remembers the teachings of the guy he supposedly follows.

2. Hillary. Some might claim she's not cut from the same cloth as Bill, but I don't buy it. We saw Bill's work to help the imperial class - his adventures in the Balkans, etc. A Hillary Presidency might slow down the growth slightly, but her votes of expediency in the Senate give me no hope that she'll actually end the "War on Terror".

3. McCain. Ye gods. Read Raimondo's column and check out the deep reporting Matt Welch did for his book "The Myth of a Maverick". If he is somehow elected.... :attn:

4. Barack. Sure he has his issues. Sure, he's been working the political system to get himself into position to run. I'm sure he's got all kinds of people behind the scenes pulling the strings. But at least we know he's an outsider to the complex. He's actually voted anti-war from the start (whether he did it for the right reasons, at least it gives him the backbone to make decisions for the right reasons now).

You all know Barack's not my #1 choice. Normally I'd be having more fun trying to find out which man the LP would put out there to get their 380,000 votes. But look at the likely options available to us and consider the absolute horror of losing this country and all that I have worked for to interminable national debt, because our leaders help only to enrich the few whom DoD touches.

I will vote for Obama and be proud to do so.Cool, now you will be accepted as one of the enlightened.

Shiva will take you into his bosom and suckle you like a newborn.:D

I think I'll vote for the libertarian candidate just to be contrary.:D

[Meathead]

wow if even contrarians are jumping on the obama bandwagon its all over

i just hope he doesnt turn out to be just another great orator who sucks ass once they get it

or a bad orator who is charming and starts immoral wars that kill millions

[shiva2999]

Cool, now you will be accepted as one of the enlightened.

Shiva will take you into his bosom and suckle you like a newborn.:D

I think I'll vote for the libertarian candidate just to be contrary.:D

Strangely enough, shiva has been quite critical of Obama.

[micknaboz]

Strangely enough, shiva has been quite critical of Obama.

just curious, how come? Cuz I think Obama is a great speaker, tons of charisma, very inspiring, yet I just haven't been able to commit to him, something keeps pulling me back.
Make no mistake if he gets the dem nom, I am fully supporting him, both financially and doing volunteer shit , of course I'll do the same for Hillary.

Still I have some nagging doubts about him. Maybe its just my nature of going against the grain of the bandwagon that arose around him.

What are your criticism of him Shiva?

[pmoon6]

Strangely enough, shiva has been quite critical of Obama.I know. Just goofing around.

I will probably will vote for Obama, myself.

Long time to November. Things can change rapidly in the political arena.

Maybe Billy boy has a few tricks up his sleeve.

[deconstruction]

He has no experience and will be a puppet to who ever runs him ,just like GW.

The big difference there being that Bush is a moron, and Obama is not.

[shiva2999]

just curious, how come? Cuz I think Obama is a great speaker, tons of charisma, very inspiring, yet I just haven't been able to commit to him, something keeps pulling me back.
Make no mistake if he gets the dem nom, I am fully supporting him, both financially and doing volunteer shit , of course I'll do the same for Hillary.

Still I have some nagging doubts about him. Maybe its just my nature of going against the grain of the bandwagon that arose around him.

What are your criticism of him Shiva?

http://buffalorange.com/showthread.php?t=130129

[nehemiah]

Help me, Obama-Wan Kenobi; you're my only hope.
~anEin

[nehemiah]

obama sucks.

by the way.

[ticatfan3]

The big difference there being that Bush is a moron, and Obama is not.If bush had decent people behind him,he could have been ok,the same with obama,it is all in who is pushing his buttons.

[Green Lantern]

If bush had decent people behind him,he could have been ok,the same with obama,it is all in who is pushing his buttons.

Some of it, too, is who you owe for getting you in office.

[Lucidvizion]

obama sucks.

by the way.

Tell me which one of those four doesn't suck.

These candidates are apathy-inducing.

[JoeMama]

I'm ok with Barack Obama.

He was against the Iraq war from the beginning.

He's smooth with the general public like Billy C.

His appeal crosses over political lines.

Most people seem to criticize him for his overuse of "unity" and "hope" rhetoric. But eh, **** it. All mainstream politicians inundate you with copious amounts of bullshit. I don't see how his rhetoric is any more irritating than Hillary's or Edwards' rhetoric; or any candidate for that matter.

The ultra-left tend to despise Obama because he's apparently not polarizing enough. Which I find odd, but predictable, since the DNC is apparently infatuated with blowing national elections. Ala John Kerry in 2004.

[anEinherjer]

Listen, I'm not stupid enough to go ga-ga over two candidates in the same election cycle. :D I'm not claiming he's got "great president" written all over him. But I do know that he's stood up for a few things, and he has some reasonable ideas, and he's not a tool of the established DC set.

I realize there are, right now, 4 candidates to choose from that have a realistic chance to win (and I also realize that once the curtain's closed, I'm voting Libertarian).

And I also realize that the military-industrial-driven debt that the nation is buckling under is going to be unfathomable worse if Admiral McCain wins; Hillary will be a master of geopolitik the same way Bill was (which will be proven if she can manage somehow to win); Huckaloogie is a religious wackjob.

The rise of the American military complex is the biggest threat to the way I want to lead my life. Period. The terr'rists aren't even close. Social spending isn't even close. ****'s sake, even universal stupid broken healthcare isn't even close.

Admiral Akbar McCain: IT'S A TRAP!!
http://shadowmage.plinkomedia.com/images/Admiral-Ackbar-trap.jpg

That leaves Obama.

[sukie]

Unity Hope and Change.

[shiva2999]

The rise of the American military complex is the biggest threat to the way I want to lead my life. Period.

Smarter you seem to be getting, young Jedi...

http://spicegirl.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/luke-yoda.jpg

[micknaboz]

The ultra-left tend to despise Obama because he's apparently not polarizing enough. .

Got a source on that? Or care to define what you mean by ultra left?
Cause from my viewpoint the progressive left is solidly behind Obama. In the "Move On"
vote Obama got something like 70-75% of the vote as the candidate to endorse.
Go to any progressive blog and he is by far the clear choice.

[JoeMama]

Got a source on that? Or care to define what you mean by ultra left?
Cause from my viewpoint the progressive left is solidly behind Obama. In the "Move On"
vote Obama got something like 70-75% of the vote as the candidate to endorse.
Go to any progressive blog and he is by far the clear choice.

Maybe a better way to explain it is I sense a lot of low-key hostility toward Obama specifically from the Hillary crowd. And to a lesser extent the Edwards crowd.

It's an impression I get primarily from reading Bartcop.com regularly.

[г]

or a bad orator who is charming and starts immoral wars that kill millions

Apparently Hillary was bad at oration

[uppy]

anEi....that would give you a demo congress with a moonbat Prez.

[micknaboz]

Maybe a better way to explain it is I sense a lot of low-key hostility toward Obama specifically from the Hillary crowd. And to a lesser extent the Edwards crowd.

It's an impression I get primarily from reading Bartcop.com regularly.

I'm getting a totally different impression. I Read Daily Kos and a few others, and the hostility and venom from many Obama supporters towards Hillary is palpable at times.
Yeah there might be some from HC supporters towards the Obama camp, but mostly because of the constant attacks from them on HC.

Of course the progressive/left community has never been a fan of the Clintons, christ some of them are as bad as wingnuts in their disdain for them. Since its inception Daily Kos has always been a favorite of mine, but man the last three months have been brutal with the Obama hype and the constant attacks on Clinton.

Either way, you didn't really address my original inquiry, unless you consider Hillary supporters to be ultra left, which would make you a psychotic, delusional wingnut.

[shiva2999]

Maybe a better way to explain it is I sense a lot of low-key hostility toward Obama specifically from the Hillary crowd. And to a lesser extent the Edwards crowd.


How is this different than when Dr Who or Tiger or Matthew tell us (as they all have) that "the fact those horrible libs hate ..... just makes me like him even more"?

Sure, I'd like to hope that Obama's playing it cool to get elected so he can kick right-wing butt once he gets into power.

Hope, hope, hope.

Oh, the audacity!

[JoeMama]

I'm getting a totally different impression. I Read Daily Kos and a few others, and the hostility and venom from many Obama supporters towards Hillary is palpable at times.
Yeah there might be some from HC supporters towards the Obama camp, but mostly because of the constant attacks from them on HC.

Of course the progressive/left community has never been a fan of the Clintons, christ some of them are as bad as wingnuts in their disdain for them. Since its inception Daily Kos has always been a favorite of mine, but man the last three months have been brutal with the Obama hype and the constant attacks on Clinton.

Either way, you didn't really address my original inquiry, unless you consider Hillary supporters to be ultra left, which would make you a psychotic, delusional wingnut.

I didn't explain it clearly.

Ultra-left was the wrong characterization.

I'm just picking up on more hostility from the Clinton side as far as Democratic in-fighting; but again, it's probably because I read selective sources.

Hillary definitely gets more shit from Republicans.

[JoeMama]

How is this different than when Dr Who or Tiger or Matthew tell us (as they all have) that "the fact those horrible libs hate ..... just makes me like him even more"?

Because it doesn't make me like him more.

I didn't insinuate that line of reasoning anyway.

From the outside looking in, I don't understand the Dem in-fighting. Clinton and Obama aren't nearly as far apart as some of their supporters.

[micknaboz]

Any astrology buffs out there.


Obama has a Leo Sun, Scorpio Rising, and Uranus in the 10th house conjunct his Midheaven. That is the same Sun/Ascendant combination as Napoleon, Mussolini, and Castro. All of those became dictators.

In addition, politicians with the planet Uranus strong in the horoscope tend to turn their nations upside down. Hitler had a singleton Uranus (by chart shape) just over his Ascendant. Lenin had a singleton Uranus (also by chart shape) in his 8th house. FDR had one too, in his 1st house.

I'd love to see another FDR in the WH. That would be like heaven, watching all the wingnut lemmings going over the cliff.

[micknaboz]

From the outside looking in, I don't understand the Dem in-fighting. Clinton and Obama aren't nearly as far apart as some of their supporters.

You seriously underestimate the lefts hatred toward the Clintons. And yes, thats a pretty strong word, but in many cases appropriate.

[Merc]

That whole "only hope" hyperbole normally makes my ski But look at the likely options available to us and consider the absolute horror of losing this country and all that I have worked for to interminable national debt, because our leaders help only to enrich the few whom DoD touches.

I will vote for Obama and be proud to do so.

Healthcare: Capstone of the Obama capmpaign. Get ready for tax tiime folks, this one will be a killer. If you are so afraid of debt then maybe you better go over and take a gander at Obama's plan for your future. His healthcare plan will make Bush's drug plan look like small potatoes. I estimate roughly 25% of the budget just to make sure our health care sucks as bad as the rest of the socialist worlds.

Defense: His plans for defense, the one thing the constitution decrees as an obligation of the federal government? Well I don't see on one his site. Guess we know where national defense stands in Obama's world. BTW, the guys with the turbans ain't what the military is planning for. Do a little study on the up and coming empires we will be facing off with in the next 20 or so years. it would be nice to turn off the spickets till you need some gear and then turn them back on and have what you want but modern weapons systems take years to develop.

Energy: Nothing about nuclear power or opening new refineries nor extracting he billions of barrels of oil on US lands. Nope. Mostly carbon credits (this is a direct tax on you) and more dreams. Tax big business!! Believe me, you pay thoise taxes mate, not he corporations. They just pass on the cost to the consumer.

education: Check out his zero to five program. Get those kids into an even more incompetently run education system earlier. No vouchers mentioned. Oh no, we can't have free choice. Nope, big brother knows what is best for your kids. No mention of weakening the NEA's stranglehold on education either. Why would there be, they support Obama.

Family: A $500 tax credit and raise the minimum wage. Raise the minimum wage? WTF are you doing raising kids on a minimum wage job? I guess i'll be paying for that too. Go ahead and have kids when you are 14. Drop out of school and get on the dole for the rest of your life, big daddy will cover you.

Social Security: Raise it.

Of course all of these will push even more companies overseas as the price for doing business here will make it impossible to compete. Bye bye jobs but at least we punished big business.

With Obama in the executive office and democrats in both houses you will see the most punishing taxes in the history of the US. You'll see the military disemboweled and the healthcare industry ransacked and federalized. Hillary may be even worse.

So have fun believing in the nice words coming from Obama's mouth but don't look to closely, you may not like what you see unless you are an avowed socialist like the folks embracing you here. Get the facts before you buy the bullshit. Yoiu don;'t have to dig deep, just go to his website and look at "issues"

[shiva2999]

You seriously underestimate the lefts hatred toward the Clintons. And yes, thats a pretty strong word, but in many cases appropriate.

As far as I can see, the only hatred of the Clinton's from the left concerns the bromide that Bill Clinton was the best Republican President you've ever had.

My concern about Obama is he appeals to the American weakness for wishful thinking.

Once an American embraces optimism, they'll kill anyone that wrecks their buzz.

That's what I'm getting from the Obama side.

[micknaboz]

With Obama in the executive office and democrats in both houses you will see the most punishing taxes in the history of the US. You'll see the military disemboweled and the healthcare industry ransacked and federalized. Hillary may be even worse.

Wah Wah Wah Mommy Mommy the nasty govt wants me to support their infrastructure and services............. Get the **** over it.

Maybe we'll see another balanced budget( which the republican robber barons only pay lip homage to), like the one that occured under Clinton, the one that led to biggest economic expansion in our nations history.
So quit your fear mongering whining and go do something positive for your community.

[uppy]

Healthcare: Capstone of the Obama capmpaign. Get ready for tax tiime folks, this one will be a killer. If you are so afraid of debt then maybe you better go over and take a gander at Obama's plan for your future. His healthcare plan will make Bush's drug plan look like small potatoes. I estimate roughly 25% of the budget just to make sure our health care sucks as bad as the rest of the socialist worlds.

Defense: His plans for defense, the one thing the constitution decrees as an obligation of the federal government? Well I don't see on one his site. Guess we know where national defense stands in Obama's world. BTW, the guys with the turbans ain't what the military is planning for. Do a little study on the up and coming empires we will be facing off with in the next 20 or so years. it would be nice to turn off the spickets till you need some gear and then turn them back on and have what you want but modern weapons systems take years to develop.

Energy: Nothing about nuclear power or opening new refineries nor extracting he billions of barrels of oil on US lands. Nope. Mostly carbon credits (this is a direct tax on you) and more dreams. Tax big business!! Believe me, you pay thoise taxes mate, not he corporations. They just pass on the cost to the consumer.

education: Check out his zero to five program. Get those kids into an even more incompetently run education system earlier. No vouchers mentioned. Oh no, we can't have free choice. Nope, big brother knows what is best for your kids. No mention of weakening the NEA's stranglehold on education either. Why would there be, they support Obama.

Family: A $500 tax credit and raise the minimum wage. Raise the minimum wage? WTF are you doing raising kids on a minimum wage job? I guess i'll be paying for that too. Go ahead and have kids when you are 14. Drop out of school and get on the dole for the rest of your life, big daddy will cover you.

Social Security: Raise it.

Of course all of these will push even more companies overseas as the price for doing business here will make it impossible to compete. Bye bye jobs but at least we punished big business.

With Obama in the executive office and democrats in both houses you will see the most punishing taxes in the history of the US. You'll see the military disemboweled and the healthcare industry ransacked and federalized. Hillary may be even worse.

So have fun believing in the nice words coming from Obama's mouth but don't look to closely, you may not like what you see unless you are an avowed socialist like the folks embracing you here. Get the facts before you buy the bullshit. Yoiu don;'t have to dig deep, just go to his website and look at "issues"





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[35Pete]

I'll probably vote Obama. It sickens me to do so but the police state has to end.

[uppy]

Wah Wah Wah Mommy Mommy the nasty govt wants me to support their infrastructure and services............. Get the **** over it.

Maybe we'll see another balanced budget( which the republican robber barons only pay lip homage to), like the one that occured under Clinton, the one that led to biggest economic expansion in our nations history.
So quit your fear mongering whining and go do something positive for your community.


Clinton NEVER balanced shit....the congress did.In fact clinton shut the goverment down
to try to force congress to pass an unbalanced budget and all it got him was a blow job
disbarrment and impeachment.

I miss The good old days

[35Pete]

You know the Republicans are ****ed this fall when guys like anEinherjer and I are likely going to pull the lever for Barak.

Pete's prediction.

WH: Democrat
Senate: Dems +4
House: Dems +27

Bush has John Majored his party.

Back to the wilderness for 40 years guys.

[35Pete]

Wah Wah Wah Mommy Mommy the nasty govt wants me to support their infrastructure and services............. Get the **** over it.

Maybe we'll see another balanced budget( which the republican robber barons only pay lip homage to), like the one that occured under Clinton, the one that led to biggest economic expansion in our nations history.
So quit your fear mongering whining and go do something positive for your community.

Mik. $700 billion in military spending doesn't count. :hmm:

Hopefully Barak will gut the military to about 150 billion or less.

[uppy]

I'll probably vote Obama. It sickens me to do so but the police state has to end.

:rofl:

No you wont.....money means to much for you to allow a demo congress and a moonbat
prez to take your hard earned money from you and give it to someone that has done
nothing for it....wait,your not worried, universal healthcare will save us all

[WhiteRabbit]

You know the Republicans are ****ed this fall when guys like anEinherjer and I are likely going to pull the lever for Barak.

Pete's prediction.

WH: Democrat
Senate: Dems +4
House: Dems +27

Bush has John Majored his party.

Back to the wilderness for 40 years guys.

Funny thing is ... moderates like myself who voted democrats in 2006 are mostly for McCain. Vote yourself a democratic senate, vote yourself a democratic house, then vote yourself a democratic president -- it will make the G.W. Bush era seem like good times ...

[Merc]

Wah Wah Wah Mommy Mommy the nasty govt wants me to support their infrastructure and services............. Get the **** over it.

Maybe we'll see another balanced budget( which the republican robber barons only pay lip homage to), like the one that occured under Clinton, the one that led to biggest economic expansion in our nations history.
So quit your fear mongering whining and go do something positive for your community.


Balanced budget in what year of Clinton's two term? Oh yeah, projected ten years after he left office. Except the empty dot.com bubble burst while he was still in office and started a recession. Learn your facts before you tell someone to get the *** over it.

[micknaboz]

Clinton NEVER balanced shit....the congress did.In fact clinton shut the goverment down
to try to force congress to pass an unbalanced budget and all it got him was a blow job
disbarrment and impeachment.

I miss The good old days

You couldn't be more ****en wrong. You wingnuts still think just saying it makes it so. It doesn't.

The Clinton administration wanted to raise taxes to start paying for all the excesses of the previous 12 years of R rule, the R's went along cause they thought it would kill Clinton in his re-election bid.

Clinton did shut the govt down and it came later after the tax raises that finally led us to a balanced budget, and BTW Clinton won that shut down fight.

And all you **** wads can still talk abouit is a blow job. ****en pathetic.,

[Green Lantern]

anEi....that would give you a demo congress with a moonbat Prez.

In four short years. Obviously the Republicans are tone-deaf.

[shiva2999]

Funny thing is ... moderates like myself who voted democrats in 2006 are mostly for McCain. Vote yourself a democratic senate, vote yourself a democratic house, then vote yourself a democratic president -- it will make the G.W. Bush era seem like good times ...

Holy crap.

have you suffered a recent head injury?

[uppy]

You couldn't be more ****en wrong. You wingnuts still think just saying it makes it so. It doesn't.

The Clinton administration wanted to raise taxes to start paying for all the excesses of the previous 12 years of R rule, the R's went along cause they thought it would kill Clinton in his re-election bid.

Clinton did shut the govt down and it came later after the tax raises that finally led us to a balanced budget, and BTW Clinton won that shut down fight.

And all you **** wads can still talk abouit is a blow job. ****en pathetic.,


The clinton administration did have the biggest tax hike in the nations history...why
do you think the country tossed the demo congress ?

and BTW Clinton won that shut down fight.

:rofl:

sure he did,they can put his award in the Inpeachment wing of the clintoon library

life is good

[Merc]

Uppy-
Isn't great how I pointed out a few things that I got directly from Obama's website and all we get is mick talking about Clinton. Obama's support is strictly emotional appeal. No one will talk about what his policies will do to the economy.

[micknaboz]

Balanced budget in what year of Clinton's two term? Oh yeah, projected ten years after he left office. Except the empty dot.com bubble burst while he was still in office and started a recession. Learn your facts before you tell someone to get the *** over it.

http://www.newslinker.net/photos/Full919.jpg

again: get the **** over it. And that really has nothing to do with weather he achieved a balanced budget or not, its about the incessant republican/libertarian whining about having to pay taxes.

The biggest diff between the R's and D's is that the dems want to tax and spend and pay as you go.
The republicans only want to spend and continually drive up the deficit. Of course most of them (you) don't care about the future and who's gonna end up paying for it, but in the end we're all gonna pay for it.

[WhiteRabbit]

Holy crap.

have you suffered a recent head injury?

Not a chance man. I've followed McCain, and actually supported him, since 1999 -- I really think the guy is pretty well rounded.

Democrats have a lot of steam right now because everyone is tired of Prez. Bushco. If you think things will be better off with democrats having full and complete control, then I am asking you if you've suffered a head injury ...

[Green Lantern]

Not a chance man. I've followed McCain, and actually supported him, since 1999 -- I really think the guy is pretty well rounded.

Democrats have a lot of steam right now because everyone is tired of Prez. Bushco. If you think things will be better off with democrats having full and complete control, then I am asking you if you've suffered a head injury ...

It is a sign of the times and I think they would not hold control for more than one or two two-year terms.

[shiva2999]

Not a chance man. I've followed McCain, and actually supported him, since 1999 -- I really think the guy is pretty well rounded.

Democrats have a lot of steam right now because everyone is tired of Prez. Bushco. If you think things will be better off with democrats having full and complete control, then I am asking you if you've suffered a head injury ...

Uppy and Merc have your back.

Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran...

[WhiteRabbit]

Uppy and Merc have your back.

Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran...

He's not Cheney/Bush.

[shiva2999]

He's not Cheney/Bush.

So few are.

Thank god.

[WhiteRabbit]

Funny thing about the Democratic candidates ... Billary and Obama ... they are great at saying what they are going to do, but how are they going to do these things?

1. They are going to pull out of Iraq and re-gain the respect around the world. Really? So they are going to leave the place in not such great shape, but then they expect the world to revel at how great our country is? The fact that we went in there, wrecked the country, then run off ... yeah, that'll bring a ton of respect. So, they will plan on going back in and help rebuilding Iraq -- yeah, that'll really work -- the militias will just disappear after they pull our troops ... right.

2. They are going to have a healthcare plan for EVERY American -- right, and how are they funding this? Billary has some money stashed?

3. They are going to bring the economy back, significantly reduce the debt -- again how?

4. They are going to make the U.S. "greener" -- how?

5. What about social security?

6. Never hear them talking about relations with China (who has a definite vested interest in the US economy).

I see one way they can get money to do this -- tax the living **** out of middle-America. I can see it from a mile away, these guys are going to suffocate middle-America worse than it already is, and this is going to result in a weaker middle class. Weaken the middle class, and you significantly weaken a country's economy. So they are going to tax big corporations? Who buys things from these corporations -- hey, it's mid-America! Guess who'll be paying at the end.

Democrats are saying all the right things ... but there is not a chance they can deliver on it without screwing the middle class.

[Green Lantern]

Funny thing about the Democratic candidates ... Billary and Obama ... they are great at saying what they are going to do, but how are they going to do these things?

1. They are going to pull out of Iraq and re-gain the respect around the world. Really? So they are going to leave the place in not such great shape, but then they expect the world to revel at how great our country is? The fact that we went in there, wrecked the country, then run off ... yeah, that'll bring a ton of respect. So, they will plan on going back in and help rebuilding Iraq -- yeah, that'll really work -- the militias will just disappear after they pull our troops ... right.

2. They are going to have a healthcare plan for EVERY American -- right, and how are they funding this? Billary has some money stashed?

3. They are going to bring the economy back, significantly reduce the debt -- again how?

4. They are going to make the U.S. "greener" -- how?

5. What about social security?

6. Never hear them talking about relations with China.

I see one way they can get money to do this -- tax the living **** out of middle-America. I can see it from a mile away, these guys are going to suffocate middle-America worse than it already is, and this is going to result in a weaker middle class. Weaken the middle class, and you significantly weaken a country's economy. So they are going to tax big corporations? Who buys things from these corporations -- hey, it's mid-America! Guess who'll be paying at the end.

Democrats are saying all the right things ... but there is not a chance they can deliver on it without screwing the middle class.


Campaigning and governing are two distinct things. Do you not already know this?

[WhiteRabbit]

Campaigning and governing are two distinct things. Do you not already know this?

I definitely did know this ... but these two democrats are taking it to an entirely new level.

[anEinherjer]

Healthcare: Capstone of the Obama capmpaign. Get ready for tax tiime folks, this one will be a killer. If you are so afraid of debt then maybe you better go over and take a gander at Obama's plan for your future. His healthcare plan will make Bush's drug plan look like small potatoes. I estimate roughly 25% of the budget just to make sure our health care sucks as bad as the rest of the socialist worlds.

Defense: His plans for defense, the one thing the constitution decrees as an obligation of the federal government? Well I don't see on one his site. Guess we know where national defense stands in Obama's world. BTW, the guys with the turbans ain't what the military is planning for. Do a little study on the up and coming empires we will be facing off with in the next 20 or so years. it would be nice to turn off the spickets till you need some gear and then turn them back on and have what you want but modern weapons systems take years to develop.

Energy: Nothing about nuclear power or opening new refineries nor extracting he billions of barrels of oil on US lands. Nope. Mostly carbon credits (this is a direct tax on you) and more dreams. Tax big business!! Believe me, you pay thoise taxes mate, not he corporations. They just pass on the cost to the consumer.

education: Check out his zero to five program. Get those kids into an even more incompetently run education system earlier. No vouchers mentioned. Oh no, we can't have free choice. Nope, big brother knows what is best for your kids. No mention of weakening the NEA's stranglehold on education either. Why would there be, they support Obama.

Family: A $500 tax credit and raise the minimum wage. Raise the minimum wage? WTF are you doing raising kids on a minimum wage job? I guess i'll be paying for that too. Go ahead and have kids when you are 14. Drop out of school and get on the dole for the rest of your life, big daddy will cover you.

Social Security: Raise it.

Of course all of these will push even more companies overseas as the price for doing business here will make it impossible to compete. Bye bye jobs but at least we punished big business.

With Obama in the executive office and democrats in both houses you will see the most punishing taxes in the history of the US. You'll see the military disemboweled and the healthcare industry ransacked and federalized. Hillary may be even worse.

So have fun believing in the nice words coming from Obama's mouth but don't look to closely, you may not like what you see unless you are an avowed socialist like the folks embracing you here. Get the facts before you buy the bullshit. Yoiu don;'t have to dig deep, just go to his website and look at "issues"

Hey Merc,

I respect you man, I really do. But Pete had a good response: "Mik. $700 billion in military spending doesn't count."

Obama could do all kinds of silly, stupid social shit and it wouldn't cost us anywhere near what the imperial class is going to cost is in blood and treasure.

You suggest that I "just go to his website and look at "issues"". That's what I did. I downloaded and read his 64 page PDF describing exactly what he wants to do.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU when you say we will have "empires" to face off against in 20 years. And why the hell should we care?

Our military technology is already light years ahead of anyone else. We could sit on our hands for 20 years and still be well ahead. If a real threat emerged, we could turn the machinery on in this country and out-strip anyone else on the planet, exactly the way we did in WW2.

But I don't believe for one instant that we will need to. The fear of "enemies" is entirely in your heads. My prescription: Trade the shit out of 'em. :) Free trade! They won't **** with us if they're making more money than they ever dreamed of!

Our companies are already going overseas as the dollar weakens and the American system teeters.

The military-first focus on the right is precisely the cause.

But don't worry, I'm not going all socialist on you guys. I'm just hoping Obama takes the military back a few pegs, because it's the single-most biggest threat to MY way of life.

[anEinherjer]

:rofl:

No you wont.....money means to much for you to allow a demo congress and a moonbat
prez to take your hard earned money from you and give it to someone that has done
nothing for it....wait,your not worried, universal healthcare will save us all

Seriously, uppy, you need to set down the crack pipe.

The socialist crap they want to serve up is CHEAPER than the bullets you want to waste money on.

Explain this to me, Mr Military: Why the **** are we spending over $40 B to develop (not even to buy!) yet one more MANNED air fighter? (JSF) Why? We could destroy any army with cheap UAV tech and a bunch of sugar-infused teenagers sitting at a huge LAN party in Florida for 1/10th the cost.

[shiva2999]

Funny thing about the Democratic candidates ... Billary and Obama ... they are great at saying what they are going to do, but how are they going to do these things?

1. They are going to pull out of Iraq and re-gain the respect around the world. Really? So they are going to leave the place in not such great shape, but then they expect the world to revel at how great our country is? The fact that we went in there, wrecked the country, then run off ... yeah, that'll bring a ton of respect. So, they will plan on going back in and help rebuilding Iraq -- yeah, that'll really work -- the militias will just disappear after they pull our troops ... right.

2. They are going to have a healthcare plan for EVERY American -- right, and how are they funding this? Billary has some money stashed?

3. They are going to bring the economy back, significantly reduce the debt -- again how?

4. They are going to make the U.S. "greener" -- how?

5. What about social security?

6. Never hear them talking about relations with China (who has a definite vested interest in the US economy).

I see one way they can get money to do this -- tax the living **** out of middle-America. I can see it from a mile away, these guys are going to suffocate middle-America worse than it already is, and this is going to result in a weaker middle class. Weaken the middle class, and you significantly weaken a country's economy. So they are going to tax big corporations? Who buys things from these corporations -- hey, it's mid-America! Guess who'll be paying at the end.

Democrats are saying all the right things ... but there is not a chance they can deliver on it without screwing the middle class.

Wow, just wow.

So your solution is to elect another war monger?

And I'll never understand the logic that says "we ****ed up Iraq so it's our responsibility to stay and fix it".

Why should a bunch of ****ing idiots that created a gigantic fiasco be trusted to ****ing fix ANYTHING?

[35Pete]

:rofl:

No you wont.....money means to much for you to allow a demo congress and a moonbat
prez to take your hard earned money from you and give it to someone that has done
nothing for it....wait,your not worried, universal healthcare will save us all

Money is not my God.

Trying to do the best thing is.

Quit the denial Uppy. You're party is getting hammered this fall.

You're team is dead.

[35Pete]

Funny thing is ... moderates like myself who voted democrats in 2006 are mostly for McCain. Vote yourself a democratic senate, vote yourself a democratic house, then vote yourself a democratic president -- it will make the G.W. Bush era seem like good times ...

Ask nehemiah. I was SPOT on in my prediction about the Republican blasting that they took in 06' and I am right about this again.

As long as it's not Hillary the dems will win the white house by 10+%.

They'll gain at leasts 4 seats.

I could see even 30+ house seats swinging democratic.

08' will make 06' look like the roaring 20's for the Republicans.

They are dead as a party.

Why vote for a Repubican war-mongering liberal in McCain when you can get a democratic dove liberal?

[Merc]

http://www.newslinker.net/photos/Full919.jpg

again: get the **** over it. And that really has nothing to do with weather he achieved a balanced budget or not, its about the incessant republican/libertarian whining about having to pay taxes.

The biggest diff between the R's and D's is that the dems want to tax and spend and pay as you go.
The republicans only want to spend and continually drive up the deficit. Of course most of them (you) don't care about the future and who's gonna end up paying for it, but in the end we're all gonna pay for it.

Dig deeper into that graph you are showing there. It doesn't include Soc. Sec. IOUs and it is based on projected incomes and projected tax revenues. We can never have a balanced budget with social security sitting in the background.

You're in the wrong party mate. Conservatives do not tax and spend. It is against their nature. I am without a party as well as the republicans no longer practice a conservative philosophy, hence McClinton as the Republican nominee. Reduced taxes generate increased tax revenues as industry is allowed to pursue profits without being punished by punitive taxes. Tax the piss out of a company and they stop investing, hunker down and move offshore. Socialists don't like that so they are all in favor of government running everything. Of course, government is incapable of running anything and you get Jimmy Carter years.
BTW, the congress holds the purse strings, not the President. The President proposes a budget but congress approves it. Clinton had a republican, conservative republican, legislative branch and his feet were eld to the fire.

Obama or Hillary will, in all likelihood, have a very liberal house and senate to push their socialist plans along. Our argument will be moot as the reality of the situation will prove one of us wrong or right. We might as well agree to disagree at this point and talk about it two years from now. Standby for Jimmy Carter two.

[sukie]

Pete's gonna take a job for 40 K less on principle alone. Kudos Pete.

[shiva2999]

Pete's gonna take a job for 40 K less on principle alone. Kudos Pete.

Sacrificing $$$$$$$ for principles is ridiculed in sukieland.

[35Pete]

Pete's gonna take a job for 40 K less on principle alone. Kudos Pete.

Guess what? When you buy something new and expensive?

I don't give a shit. Not too you or anyone else for that matter. In fact, people that own BMW's I laugh at as incredibly insecure. You know I could afford one, but I'll never buy one. My truck works just fine.

I'd rather live in poverty and maintain my integrity and dignity than live prosperous and be a dick.

Money is not everything. I grew up poor. It doesn't scare me like many people it does.

[Merc]

Don't take the pay cut till you build your new rig. I want to see that first. :attn:

[sukie]

Guess what? When you buy something new and expensive?

I don't give a shit. Not too you or anyone else for that matter. In fact, people that own BMW's I laugh at as incredibly insecure. You know I could afford one, but I'll never buy one. My truck works just fine.

I'd rather live in poverty and maintain my integrity and dignity than live prosperous and be a dick.

Money is not everything. I grew up poor. It doesn't scare me like many people it does.
So move back to Blo... You have no excuse not to.

[WhiteRabbit]

Ask nehemiah. I was SPOT on in my prediction about the Republican blasting that they took in 06' and I am right about this again.

As long as it's not Hillary the dems will win the white house by 10+%.

They'll gain at leasts 4 seats.

I could see even 30+ house seats swinging democratic.

08' will make 06' look like the roaring 20's for the Republicans.

They are dead as a party.

Why vote for a Repubican war-mongering liberal in McCain when you can get a democratic dove liberal?

and I was SPOT on about the democrats beating up on the republicans in '06 as well (in which I voted democrat), so one of us will be wrong this time ;)

[WhiteRabbit]

Guess what? When you buy something new and expensive?

I don't give a shit. Not too you or anyone else for that matter. In fact, people that own BMW's I laugh at as incredibly insecure. You know I could afford one, but I'll never buy one. My truck works just fine.

I'd rather live in poverty and maintain my integrity and dignity than live prosperous and be a dick.

Money is not everything. I grew up poor. It doesn't scare me like many people it does.

Man, talk about making some major judgments ...

A lot of us grew up poor Pete -- liking and having nice things does not make a person a dick, or make people scared of being poor, or make people lose their dignity, or make people insecure ...

Last I heard you have a pretty kick ass computer set up ... more than anyone would need for a home PC ... different strokes for different folks man.

[micknaboz]

d.

Reduced taxes generate increased tax revenues as industry is allowed to pursue profits without being punished by punitive taxes. Tax the piss out of a company and they stop investing, hunker down and move offshore.
BTW, the congress holds the purse strings, not the President. The President proposes a budget but congress approves it. Clinton had a republican, conservative republican, legislative branch and his feet were held to the fire.


Just a couple things.

Taxes were raised under Clinton's watch, and the economy still took off. Sort of disproves your taxes are totally stifling theory.

In August 1993, Clinton signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, which passed Congress without a single Republican vote. It cut taxes for 15 million low-income families, made tax cuts available to 90% of small businesses,[40] and raised taxes on the wealthiest 1.2% of taxpayers[41]. Additionally, it mandated that the budget be balanced over a number of years, through the implementation of spending restraints.

Who held whose feet to the fire?? You republicans are so confused, you just make shit up.

[matthew94]

I can understand the appeal of Obama

It's becoming more and more clear to me that interventionism is what is killing the United States. We spent billions of dollars to arm various groups and then send our young soldiers into the middle of civil wars to be hit with weapons that american tax payers payed for.

There's only 1 non-interventionist: Ron Paul. But if you rank the other 8 in terms of how interventionist they are, McCain is the most and Obama is the least.

But I could never vote for Obama because he's one of the biggest interventionists when it comes to domestic policy. His programs are huge and many in number. He's got more practical ideas than Hillary, and he's much more likeable as a human being, but it's still huge government.

Whether it's McCain vs. Hillary or McCain vs. Obama, I can't vote for any of the 3. McCain the biggest foreign interventionist of them all. And outside of Edwards, Hillary and Obama are the biggest domestic interventionists of them all.

Government interventionism sucks. Foreign AND domestic. And only Ron Paul is a consistent non-interventionist.

[Ralonzo]

America wants change, I guess.

[Mouldsie]

all merc or sukie care about it seems is taxes...

sure its an issue, but cmon dont ignore the important things!

[TigerJ]

How is this different than when Dr Who or Tiger or Matthew tell us (as they all have) that "the fact those horrible libs hate ..... just makes me like him even more"? Huh?

I think Obama is probably going to be the next president. I also think for two years at least his party will have solid majorities in both houses of congress. That's enough time to get a pretty good idea whether his platform is going to be helpful to the country or not. He says he's going to seek to build bridges (ie. get input from other political perspectives). I'm not really expecting a lot of that, but just maybe the economic policies he brings into office will be helpful at this point in our history/economic cycle. I don't plan on voting for him, but if he gets elected I'll live with it and give him the benefit of my doubt.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

2. They are going to have a healthcare plan for EVERY American -- right, and how are they funding this? Billary has some money stashed?





This ones real easy. Peace out to the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest 1 percent. Thats a big chunk right there.

[Merc]

Just a couple things.

Taxes were raised under Clinton's watch, and the economy still took off. Sort of disproves your taxes are totally stifling theory.



Who held whose feet to the fire?? You republicans are so confused, you just make shit up.
You don't listen to advice Mick. You should, it would help you avoid the traps you fall into when engaging in an argument. Go wicki the 1994 congressional elections. I'll save you the trouble http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives_elections,_ 1994

1993 was the end of the Democrats in congress. Remember? They lost both houses, which they had held for about 40 years. Contract with America and all that. It was an historic event. Clinton did more damage to the Democrat party than any other Democrat in history.

Clinton's hand was forced afterwards. Welfare reform, tax reform etc. Then the economy took off but was supercharged by the false dot.com bubble, a ponzi scheme based on nothing but owning a couple of servers and having a good idea. Billions upon billions were made until reality hit and the bubble burst leading to the small recession at the end of Clinton's second term in office.

Bush inherited that minirecession in full bloom. Then 9-11 hit and decimated the travel industry and the airlines. He managed to pull the economy out of that and with his further tax cuts the economy chugged along at incredible levels till Bush lost his way and started turning democrat. Remember the free drugs plan that we are in the hopper for? You should love Bush, he crossed the aisle and became a demo for all intents and purposes.

Then we have the housing boom. Another Ponzi scheme. Suddenly eveyone's home was worth twice what hey paid for it. That was fueled by BS as well and of course, like economics always does, the system righted itself and suddenly foreclosures hit new records, banks failed, and a recession is on its way.

The next five years will be fun to watch if you are of the "I told you so." mindset and your job is safe regardless of economic conditions. BTW. If you think anyone curently running is goingto pull out of Iraq, forget about it. It ain't gonna happen. That I guarantee.

[anEinherjer]

If you think anyone curently running is goingto pull out of Iraq, forget about it. It ain't gonna happen.

Obama's plan spells out in plain English that he'll remove one or 2 battalions a month, and have all troops out of Iraq in 16 months, minus some to defend our embassy.

If he doesn't do it, he's clearly broken a campaign promise and we'll hold him to that.

[Merc]

Obama's plan spells out in plain English that he'll remove one or 2 battalions a month, and have all troops out of Iraq in 16 months, minus some to defend our embassy.

If he doesn't do it, he's clearly broken a campaign promise and we'll hold him to that.
Last Sunday he clearly stated on a talking head show that as the Commander In Chief he would reserve all rights to decide on whether or not it is prudent to remove troops from Iraq on any predefined timetable (paraphrased).

No one wants the bloodbath that would ensue to go down on their watch. Campaign rhetoric is one thing and you have to bow to the looneys if you are running as a dem right now but the realities of office will trump the moveon types bellowing.

[JLB]

How will Obama do today in the Potomac primaries?

He's really been rolling it up lately.

I predict he gets the "Hat Trick" today.

[Ralonzo]

The next five years will be fun to watch if you are of the "I told you so." mindset and your job is safe regardless of economic conditions.

:bigwoot:

BTW. If you think anyone currently running is going to pull out of Iraq, forget about it. It ain't gonna happen. That I guarantee.

Hey, anEin, it's still not too late to get on-board with the winning team and join the military-industrial complex. Got a resume' handy?

[anEinherjer]

Sorry, your M-I complex is sucking the life's blood from the U.S. economy. I'm not about help if I have a choice.

[Merc]

Sorry, your M-I complex is sucking the life's blood from the U.S. economy. I'm not about help if I have a choice.


Better run the numbers on Social Security, Welfare and the myriad other social services, including the Bush Drug plan, before you start pinging on the Military too hard. Have a barf bag handy. BTW, nowhere in the Constitution is there a mention of providing endless welfare to a perpetual poverty class but it definitely mentions defense.

Of course, most politicians consider the Constitution nothing more than an impediment to their getting more votes by pandering to the endless, hapless masses of screwups that want the nanny state to take care of them. The US has the richest po' folks in the world! LOL.

[shiva2999]

Better run the numbers on Social Security, Welfare and the myriad other social services, including the Bush Drug plan, before you start pinging on the Military too hard. Have a barf bag handy. BTW, nowhere in the Constitution is there a mention of providing endless welfare to a perpetual poverty class but it definitely mentions defense.

Of course, most politicians consider the Constitution nothing more than an impediment to their getting more votes by pandering to the endless, hapless masses of screwups that want the nanny state to take care of them. The US has the richest po' folks in the world! LOL.

Man, another perfect example of the disastrous all volunteer army.

Un ****ing believeable.

[ticatfan3]

You know the Republicans are ****ed this fall when guys like anEinherjer and I are likely going to pull the lever for Barak.

Pete's prediction.

WH: Democrat
Senate: Dems +4
House: Dems +27

Bush has John Majored his party.

Back to the wilderness for 40 years guys.Lets not forget that the democratic congress is lower then GW in the polls.

[ticatfan3]

Obama's plan spells out in plain English that he'll remove one or 2 battalions a month, and have all troops out of Iraq in 16 months, minus some to defend our embassy.

If he doesn't do it, he's clearly broken a campaign promise and we'll hold him to that.One promise he will break,once he becomes president then he will find out what is going on in the real world and what he can and cannot do.

[anEinherjer]

BTW, nowhere in the Constitution is there a mention of providing endless welfare to a perpetual poverty class but it definitely mentions defense.

How about the perpetual war class? I don't see that mentioned in the Constitution. I don't see ****ing around in foreign countries, playing "pick the leader" anywhere in there. I don't see aircraft carriers in there. Believe me, I like blowing stuff up. I love high tech weaponry. I love watching shit on Youtube that makes the sensible side of me cringe.

The Constitution mentions defense. What we have now IS NOT DEFENSE!

Listen: What am I supposed to be scared of - something that's leaving us in an incredible hole, hated around the world, and running an empire that goes against everything I believe in, RIGHT NOW, or some vague scare threats about social programs that may or may not come to pass?

I'll fight the stupid social programs when they come up, but RIGHT NOW, Lockheed, Raytheon, Northrup and friends are the problem. Charging you and me $300+/hr for shitty work with shitty overruns on shitty projects is the problem. Right now. Not at some unspecified point in the future.

[pmoon6]

How about the perpetual war class? I don't see that mentioned in the Constitution. I don't see ****ing around in foreign countries, playing "pick the leader" anywhere in there. I don't see aircraft carriers in there. Believe me, I like blowing stuff up. I love high tech weaponry. I love watching shit on Youtube that makes the sensible side of me cringe.

The Constitution mentions defense. What we have now IS NOT DEFENSE!

Listen: What am I supposed to be scared of - something that's leaving us in an incredible hole, hated around the world, and running an empire that goes against everything I believe in, RIGHT NOW, or some vague scare threats about social programs that may or may not come to pass?

I'll fight the stupid social programs when they come up, but RIGHT NOW, Lockheed, Raytheon, Northrup and friends are the problem. Charging you and me $300+/hr for shitty work with shitty overruns on shitty projects is the problem. Right now. Not at some unspecified point in the future.I always have a problem with this one.

We have been hated for some time.

Does the rest of the world hate us or is that just the vocal semi majority?

Do you think that a guy, sweeping floors in Kiev, really hates America?

No, he's only thinking about taking care of his own.

If you want to examine the reasons, have at it.

The thing is, some people will hate you just because you look odd.

Some people will hate you because your politics don't match theirs.

Some people will hate you because you wear tightie whities.

The hate comes from the individual for whatever reason or motivation.

I wouldn't worry about what "the rest of the world" thinks.

I would worry about solving our own country's problems.

I would let the rest of the world eat cake.

[uppy]

Uppy-
Isn't great how I pointed out a few things that I got directly from Obama's website and all we get is mick talking about Clinton. Obama's support is strictly emotional appeal. No one will talk about what his policies will do to the economy.

Emotional appeal drives demo voters

[uppy]

Seriously, uppy, you need to set down the crack pipe.

The socialist crap they want to serve up is CHEAPER than the bullets you want to waste money on.

Explain this to me, Mr Military: Why the **** are we spending over $40 B to develop (not even to buy!) yet one more MANNED air fighter? (JSF) Why? We could destroy any army with cheap UAV tech and a bunch of sugar-infused teenagers sitting at a huge LAN party in Florida for 1/10th the cost.

The Military is in the Constitution the socialist crap is not.Also Mr.Military does not
want teenagers sitting in Fla...I want a hot ass Fighter jock I can talk to and can
see the targets on the ground when the shit hits the fan when my ass is on the line.

[uppy]

Money is not my God.

Trying to do the best thing is.

Quit the denial Uppy. You're party is getting hammered this fall.

You're team is dead.

When did you change Pete ?

Last week,last month ?

Tell you what,send me some cash thats the best thing...you know,to offset the taxes
you will be voting for come Nov. :)

[Ralonzo]

Geez, he's even quoting Killing Joke songs now. I don't think he's coming back, Uppy.

[pmoon6]

When did you change Pete ?

Last week,last month ?

Tell you what,send me some cash thats the best thing...you know,to offset the taxes
you will be voting for come Nov. :)<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yt4QPT36j9U&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yt4QPT36j9U&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Leave Pete alone.

He has found the true religion.

We all have to find our own true path.

He can take sustanence from his new enlightenment.

[Ralonzo]

I didn't say it was a bad Killing Joke song...

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7A7SaLwHrQ&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7A7SaLwHrQ&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[uppy]

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yt4QPT36j9U&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yt4QPT36j9U&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Leave Pete alone.

He has found the true religion.

We all have to find our own true path.

He can take sustanence from his new enlightenment.


Thanks Pmoonie she was great

[35Pete]

Jesus. Buscho and this clown gaggle of Reps in congress have swung this nation farther to the left than Nixon ever did. They went WAAAAY to far right and now the nation is reacting with a boomerang effect.

Nice job guys. Nice job Uppy.

[Green Lantern]

Paranoid authoritarianism is not Left.

[Ralonzo]

Paranoid authoritarianism is not Left.

So, just authoritarianism then?

[Green Lantern]

So, just authoritarianism then?

That was their similar trait.

No form of authoritarianism is Left.

[micknaboz]

Jesus. Buscho and this clown gaggle of Reps in congress have swung this nation farther to the left than Nixon ever did. They went WAAAAY to far right and now the nation is reacting with a boomerang effect.

Nice job guys. Nice job Uppy.

I think you're hallucinating on this one Pete, I hardly see the country as having swung to the left. We still got a ways to go just to get back to center.

Want proof? Check the Senate FISA vote today. They gave Bush everything he wanted.
Hopefully the House doesn't cave in on this one too. The House already voted a different bill without immunity for the telecoms, now they have to work it out with the Senates version granting immunity.

[35Pete]

I think you're hallucinating on this one Pete, I hardly see the country as having swung to the left. We still got a ways to go just to get back to center.

Want proof? Check the Senate FISA vote today. They gave Bush everything he wanted.
Hopefully the House doesn't cave in on this one too. The House already voted a different bill without immunity for the telecoms, now they have to work it out with the Senates version granting immunity.

Not hallucinating.

Look. There are two completely opposite camps in America. The sleezball scumbag worm infested Washington political class.

And the American Public.

Washington is still fascist. Both sides. The American public's disdain over what's been happening is ready to boil over.

The blame will go the reps. But both parties suck ass and should be tossed out.

[Merc]

How about the perpetual war class? I don't see that mentioned in the Constitution. I don't see ****ing around in foreign countries, playing "pick the leader" anywhere in there. I don't see aircraft carriers in there. Believe me, I like blowing stuff up. I love high tech weaponry. I love watching shit on Youtube that makes the sensible side of me cringe.

The Constitution mentions defense. What we have now IS NOT DEFENSE!

Listen: What am I supposed to be scared of - something that's leaving us in an incredible hole, hated around the world, and running an empire that goes against everything I believe in, RIGHT NOW, or some vague scare threats about social programs that may or may not come to pass?

I'll fight the stupid social programs when they come up, but RIGHT NOW, Lockheed, Raytheon, Northrup and friends are the problem. Charging you and me $300+/hr for shitty work with shitty overruns on shitty projects is the problem. Right now. Not at some unspecified point in the future.

aniE-
I blew stuff up. That was my job. I flew the hottest fighter in the world. I also know history and to avoid war you prepare for it. The enemies we plan for are real and will be challenging us 10-20 years from now. I have no dog in this fight. I am a conservative first and a republican second. My party left me, I didn't leave it and as far as I am concerned I am willing to let the country go through what it needs to in order to wake up.

If intelligent people want to believe in a man with no message except "Change", then let them have it. I lived through jimmy Carter. It was a nightmare. I also lived through Regan. He brought he country back from the abyss.

Good luck. The conservatives will go back in their hole and we will preach the logic. Let the crazies have their time. That is the US.

What you are seeing now is the last gasp of the of the boomers. The antiwar, anti establishment people who made tons of money and believe that they know better than you, what is good for you. It is socialism plain and simple. "Let us take care of you." f that! Of course the fact that the government produces nothing and has failed at everything it has ever run, save the military, is irrelevant to folks who listen to a message from a Leninist, Socialist that says only "Change" and doesn't need details. Who cares about details, he seems honest and it ain't a Bush or Clinton.

A country gets the leaders it deserves. This country is due for some real pain. Stand by, it is coming. You vote in who you want and then deal with the consequences. Stand by, and yes, the constitution may not survive the next few years of an uber liberal government.

Learn spanish mate, they are taking over. That is who everyone is pandering to. When you can vote in a country without being a citizen of said country, then the dream is over.

[deconstruction]

If bush had decent people behind him,he could have been ok,the same with obama,it is all in who is pushing his buttons.

Ummm yes his people were insidiously self interested. But a shitty administrator is still a shitty administrator, no matter what way you cut it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pet_Goat

[deconstruction]

aniE-
I blew stuff up. That was my job. I flew the hottest fighter in the world. I also know history and to avoid war you prepare for it. The enemies we plan for are real and will be challenging us 10-20 years from now. I have no dog in this fight. I am a conservative first and a republican second. My party left me, I didn't leave it and as far as I am concerned I am willing to let the country go through what it needs to in order to wake up.

If intelligent people want to believe in a man with no message except "Change", then let them have it. I lived through jimmy Carter. It was a nightmare. I also lived through Regan. He brought he country back from the abyss.

Good luck. The conservatives will go back in their hole and we will preach the logic. Let the crazies have their time. That is the US.

What you are seeing now is the last gasp of the of the boomers. The antiwar, anti establishment people who made tons of money and believe that they know better than you, what is good for you. It is socialism plain and simple. "Let us take care of you." f that! Of course the fact that the government produces nothing and has failed at everything it has ever run, save the military, is irrelevant to folks who listen to a message from a Leninist, Socialist that says only "Change" and doesn't need details. Who cares about details, he seems honest and it ain't a Bush or Clinton.

A country gets the leaders it deserves. This country is due for some real pain. Stand by, it is coming. You vote in who you want and then deal with the consequences. Stand by, and yes, the constitution may not survive the next few years of an uber liberal government.

Learn spanish mate, they are taking over. That is who everyone is pandering to. When you can vote in a country without being a citizen of said country, then the dream is over.

So, Yes yes, war is peace, freedom is slavery, and Ignorance is Strength.

Anyone who believes that the military is the best thing that this country can produce would willingly support a dictatorship by the same as long as they promised to take care of "the enemy." I can think of no greater motivation for someone who likes to "blow shit up" to support someone that would give carte blanch to do just that.

Your glee at the idea of the people of this country being punished for wanting a change is probably more a product of your sadistic enjoyment at to blowing people up than anything else.

To dispatch this chintzy toltalitarian jingoistic thinking, lets ask a few "thinking" questions:

Who are we fighting: A bunch of basically interchangeable people that are endlessly replenishable
What is the goal of the war: Not clearly stated.
When will we know that we have won: No goal has ever been stated.
Why are our objectives so unclear: No one will say
How will we win: Apparently, if we kill everybody.

What is known: we're spending a lot of tax payer money on a state of illusory perpetual war at the cost of our national identity, financial strength, environment, and education.

Furthermore, lets be frank. The last eight years with conservatives pulling every dirty propaganda trick and underhanded political ill spirited move possible have had a more negative impact on the constitution than the entire history of this country combined, with the exception of the civil war. The fact that you don't see that is worrisome.

P.S. No more racisist/fascist screeds please, they're boring and too easy.
P.S.S. stop being afraid of mexicans dude, it makes you look like a pussy.

[35Pete]

I did not know this..

The recent analysis by Allan Nairn shows that even the putative anti-war Edwards (who the press is smothering because of his anti-corporate declarations) has a back room full of defense contractors. Clinton is a ruthless warmonger, period. Obama is employing the sorriest, pro-Zionist, neoliberal trash on the market, i.e., Zbigniew Brzezinski, Richard Clarke, and Dennis Ross, on his core advisory staff.

He's a bigger scumbag than Henry Kissinger. Part of the Rockefeller Trilaterist Crowd. In fact, he's the co-founder.

No vote for Barak. Going Indy in this vote.

http://buffalobeast.com/123/goff-paul.htm

Why is EVERYONE eventually found to be part of "The Big Club"? The ****ing political virus of "The Club" has affected this bastard too.

Christ. Can't win. Just can't win.

[SpikedLemonade]

Apparently Hillary was bad at oration

That is what gave Monica her opportunity.

[anEinherjer]

I always have a problem with this one.

We have been hated for some time.

Does the rest of the world hate us or is that just the vocal semi majority?

Do you think that a guy, sweeping floors in Kiev, really hates America?

How much time have you spent overseas, moonie? Even 11 years ago they didn't like American policies. They don't like us. Even the guy sweeping floors. They know the score.

No, he's only thinking about taking care of his own.

If you want to examine the reasons, have at it.

The thing is, some people will hate you just because you look odd.

Some people will hate you because your politics don't match theirs.

Some people will hate you because you wear tightie whities.

The hate comes from the individual for whatever reason or motivation.

I wouldn't worry about what "the rest of the world" thinks.

I would worry about solving our own country's problems.

I would let the rest of the world eat cake.

And this last bit points at us getting the **** out of Iraq. And of the 4, Obama is the only one with a prayer of doing it.

[Ralonzo]

That was their similar trait.

No form of authoritarianism is Left.

You're talking about an x-axis and I'm talking about a y-axis. Authoritarianism and leftism are on disparate scales, and not mutually exclusive.

[shiva2999]

You're talking about an x-axis and I'm talking about a y-axis. Authoritarianism and leftism are on disparate scales, and not mutually exclusive.

Go read Bob Altemeyer's book.

[Ralonzo]

Go read Bob Altemeyer's book.

Quicker for you to just take the quiz (http://www.politicalcompass.org/).

[shiva2999]

Quicker for you to just take the quiz (http://www.politicalcompass.org/).

I've taken the test before.

I presume you and I are mirror images?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-7.50&soc=-7.08

[micknaboz]

Gandhi, Mandela, the Dalai Lama !! I'll take that kind of company.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-9.25&soc=-6.36

[Ralonzo]

I've taken the test before.

I presume you and I are mirror images?

Nah, that would be your pal W. I remember taking this once, seems like not much has changed since then. Moderate on social issues, and a fairly standard capitalist on economic issues.

In other words, a regular American.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=5.50&soc=0.26

[Lucidvizion]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-1.12&soc=-3.85

[notacon]

Dig deeper into that graph you are showing there. It doesn't include Soc. Sec. IOUs and it is based on projected incomes and projected tax revenues. We can never have a balanced budget with social security sitting in the background.


Wrong.

SS has been taking on surpluses since...that famous conservative, Ronald Reagan went along with raaising taxes.

So, the deficits are actually much bigger during the GOP presidential years and the surplus a little smaller than during the fiscally responsible Clinton years.

And, yes, we certainly can, and HAVE had "surpluses" with SS...all we have to do is have the very wealthy pay their fair share.

You have been listening to talk radio too much. The tripe you are trying to sell us is from them almost verbatim...don't rabid conservatives think for themselves?


You're in the wrong party mate. Conservatives do not tax and spend. It is against their nature.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I guess. In all seriousness, conservatives are SPEND AND BORROW! THAT is their "very nature". It is just what they want to spend our tax dollars on. Big defense contracts that do nothing to help "protect" us (the only thing they "protect" is big corporation's bottom line and their CEO's private jets and golden parachutes).

The biggest flamboozle of the past century is how many suckers have bought into the "conservative movement" as projected by multi-millionaire talk radio hosts. They have got all the empty headed gullible "ditto heads" doing their dirty work of supporting tax cuts for the wealthy and tax increases for everyone else.

This is the biggest "movement" of the dumbed down masses into voting for those people that proceed to do everything that is the direct opposite of what is in their own best interests.

And the funny thing is, that people like you don't even realize it!


I am without a party as well as the republicans no longer practice a conservative philosophy, hence McClinton as the Republican nominee.


Did you ever vote for GW Bush?


Reduced taxes generate increased tax revenues as industry is allowed to pursue profits without being punished by punitive taxes.


ABSOLUTELY and unequivocally FALSE!!!!!!!!

Rich conservatives have been pushing this line to the dopes for the ast 100 years. Generation after generation of the brainless accept it even though the evidence completely contradicts it.

Just because tax receipts go up after a tax cut does not mean ANYTHING! After a tax cut, tax revenue goes DOWN from what WOULD HAVE BEEN COLLECTED IF THERE WAS NOT A TAX CUT!!!

The only way to accurately measure the total amount of tax receipts is to present as a ratio of GDP.

But, the real kicker, is that most "tax cuts" as championed by the ditto heads, like Reagan's "cuts" of 1981/82 were really only cuts for the rich. My taxes went up because he took aways so many deductions and adjustments.

If a conservative proposes a "tax cut"...hang on tho your wallet unless you are a millionaire!


Tax the piss out of a company and they stop investing, hunker down and move offshore.


NONSENSE!!!!! The amount of corporate taxation has gone down by almost 2/3 since the '50's...and they are STILL whining and taking jobs offshore.

NO COMPANY TAKES JOBS OVERSEAS BECAUSE OF TAXES!!!!!! NONE!!!!

They take jobs off shore because they can get $1 wages.

ANOTHER bamboozelement bought hook line and sinker by the brainless ditto heads!


Socialists don't like that so they are all in favor of government running everything. Of course, government is incapable of running anything and you get Jimmy Carter years.


You don't have the first clue what "socialism" is. We do not have anything CLOSE to "socialism" in this country...never have.

The Carter years averaged the identical GDP growth as the Reagan years.

ANOTHER hook line and sinker brainless ditto head moment.


BTW, the congress holds the purse strings, not the President. The President proposes a budget but congress approves it. Clinton had a republican, conservative republican, legislative branch and his feet were eld to the fire.


NONSENSE again. This is a rather new dodge that conservative had to come up with to explain aways the tremendous growth of government during the Reagan years. Presidents have BIG say in budgets and exactly what Congress passes. Veto pen is very valuable.

Clinton was not held captive by the GOP Congress. What a conservative myth. The Clinton years fiscal policy is almost exactly what he laid out during his 1992 presidential campaign The GOP Congress never reversed what the Dem 1993 congress passed, tax increases on the very wealthy, and slow down of projected growth.

It led to the strongest and best growing economy in decades. AND the healthiest federal budget situations in a generation. Bush fcked that up royally with the jhelp of the nattering clueless ditto heads.


Obama or Hillary will, in all likelihood, have a very liberal house and senate to push their socialist plans along. Our argument will be moot as the reality of the situation will prove one of us wrong or right. We might as well agree to disagree at this point and talk about it two years from now. Standby for Jimmy Carter two.

Again, you have not got the faintest idea what "socialist" means.

You don't really know what true liberalism is, except as what is defined by the conservative chattering class.

I remember clearly what they (RWSM...Right Wing Smear MAchine) said was going to happen after Clinton's successful 1993 fiscal policy was passed...namely tax increases.

They predicted massive recession...no growth...declining tax receipts...CHAOS!!!!

They were WRONG...WRONG....WRONG....WRONG.

Move ahead to 2001, when Bush squeaked through his regressive and unneeded tax cuts for the rich. The Dems predicted massive increase in the deficit and the national debt and sluggish growth.

They were RIGHT...RIGHT...RIGHT...RIGHT!!!!!

The right wing conservative clap trap is almost ALWAYS WRONG!!! You have NO credibility and no independent thought process.

We got 6 years of uninterrupted conservative rule and the country is so much worse off for it that it will take DECADES of work to repair the damage.

Conservatism had it's time and the country is sick and tired of the lies and bullshit.

Listen to your talk radio blow hards and leave the running of the country to the REAL adults.

[notacon]

Man, I read that title and I cringe. That whole "only hope" hyperbole normally makes my skin crawl. Voting for modern liberals usually makes my skin crawl.

But in this case, it's true. We simply can't keep cruising along as we are toward financial and moral ruin.

But anEin, you don't give a crap about anything, you're a libertarian! I hear you typing. Not true, but let's consider for the moment that the U.S. is spending more than anyone ever in HISTORY on "defense".

It's government spending. It's not helping our economy. It's sucking the blood from us all to pay for what - another 500 lb bomb? More armor? For what? A few pissant brown folks who are pretty much mad at our previous military-industrial complex adventures?

EVEN IF you buy that Islamic-driven "terror" is an important target to be squashed - and believe me as a strident atheist I'm with you if only for that whole Danish cartoon fiasco from a couple years ago - there just aren't that many of 'em!

Surely the USSR and the Cold War was more interesting than these idiots living in caves who can't even blow up a Wal-Mart to **** with America.

Justin Raimondo has a cogent essay defining our new "imperial class" and I agree with 99.99% of what he writes: http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12343

Go read it.

In the meantime, let me get back to our mess of an electoral system, and the four men :) currently standing to be the next President, and what they mean for our future as residents of the world:

1. Huckabee. Man, he's more clueless than most. He doesn't do money, he does miracles... or something like that. A guy so overtly religious is going to be easily swayed by the M-I complex (particularly the Lockheed-and-pals paid for lobbyists) that the Islamofascists are somehow more dangerous than anything the world has EVER seen. He'll keep up the good fight. The only prayer (sic) for him is that he somehow remembers the teachings of the guy he supposedly follows.

2. Hillary. Some might claim she's not cut from the same cloth as Bill, but I don't buy it. We saw Bill's work to help the imperial class - his adventures in the Balkans, etc. A Hillary Presidency might slow down the growth slightly, but her votes of expediency in the Senate give me no hope that she'll actually end the "War on Terror".

3. McCain. Ye gods. Read Raimondo's column and check out the deep reporting Matt Welch did for his book "The Myth of a Maverick". If he is somehow elected.... :attn:

4. Barack. Sure he has his issues. Sure, he's been working the political system to get himself into position to run. I'm sure he's got all kinds of people behind the scenes pulling the strings. But at least we know he's an outsider to the complex. He's actually voted anti-war from the start (whether he did it for the right reasons, at least it gives him the backbone to make decisions for the right reasons now).

You all know Barack's not my #1 choice. Normally I'd be having more fun trying to find out which man the LP would put out there to get their 380,000 votes. But look at the likely options available to us and consider the absolute horror of losing this country and all that I have worked for to interminable national debt, because our leaders help only to enrich the few whom DoD touches.

I will vote for Obama and be proud to do so.

I always knew you were too intelligent to waste your vote on people that would never win an election.

Welcome to reality anEin.

As almost every election comes down to picking the least objectionable candidate from the two main ones that have a possibility to win.

I have may more reasons to support Obama. This is the most exciting time since JFK.

Not surprisingly, he is the ANT-Bush...the complete opposite of that dope.

Obama is as smart as a whip...Bush has below average intelligence.

Obama is a great orator...Bush mangles the language every time he opens his mouth.

Obama has vision...Bush has a vision of the inside of his anus.

Obama understands and relates to average people...Bush understands and realtes to average multi-millionaires.

Obama will handle foreign policy with intelligence and grace...Bush handled foreign policy with stupidity and arrogance.

Obama will shape domestic policy with regular people in mind...Bush shaped domestic policy with big corporations and the mega wealthy in mind.

Obama is a man of substance and principle...Bush is an empty suit whose only principle is "my way or the highway".

Obama will be a true "uniter"...Bush was the most divisive president in generations...he only "united" people in hatred of him.

[sukie]

Wow... mega assumptions above PLUS the word "VISION" as well!

[anEinherjer]

One thing notacon: The Laffer curve is real - tax receipts will increase after a tax cut. The problem, as usual, is that it's not just that simple, and yet most commentary boils down to a 10 second soundbite that makes right wing guys just yell "Lower taxes now! It'll increase revenue!"

I think a lot of people actually do understand that it's not that simple, but the constraints of the message board (and, probably, the failings of U.S. primary education) make it difficult for many to take the time to write coherent arguments.

[uppy]

The Political Compass

Economic Left/Right: 6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 6.51

[shiva2999]

One thing notacon: The Laffer curve is real - tax receipts will increase after a tax cut.

This is patently ridiculous.

Why not just eliminate taxes altogether?

You'll be rolling in dough.

[notacon]

One thing notacon: The Laffer curve is real - tax receipts will increase after a tax cut. The problem, as usual, is that it's not just that simple, and yet most commentary boils down to a 10 second soundbite that makes right wing guys just yell "Lower taxes now! It'll increase revenue!"

I think a lot of people actually do understand that it's not that simple, but the constraints of the message board (and, probably, the failings of U.S. primary education) make it difficult for many to take the time to write coherent arguments.

And I just went way out on the limb and said you were “intelligent” anEin. :)

No…tax cuts do not pay for themselves. The Laffer Curve is a laugh. Serious economists know that you don’t lose weight by eating more.

Certainly, if certain conditions exist, then cutting taxes will increase revenue, namely tax rates have to be so unrealistically high that they spawn black market activity and unnatural financial decisions.

Better yet, during both the Regan and Bush tax cutting mania, it did not tech us very much because so much else was going on.

During the Reagan years, yes, he began with a big tax cut…as usual centered around the very wealthy. But, his tax plan also contained a very vigorous changing of so many tax calculations it made the code unrecognizable.

But, the net effect was that he RAISED taxes on so many people…like myself. Additionally, after that initial tax cut, Reagan RAISED taxes something like 6 different times the rest of his two terms culminating in the HUGE tax increase of 1986 of Social Security taxes.

Bush’s perversion of fiscal policy was even worse. His tax cuts were even more regressive than Reagan’s but Bush did something even more insidious. Much of the tepid growth during the Bush years were aided by unprecedented massive increases in SPENDING. Yes, government spending provides economic growth although sometimes very inefficient. When a president INCREASES the nation debt by $3.5 TRILLION, yes…some growth takes place.

But, not as much as during the Clinton years. Clinton did exactly what he said he would do. He raised taxes on the very wealthy and cut the growth of spending. The result…the first federal surpluses in a couple generations and the highest growth since the ‘60’s.

The point is that fiscal policy needs to be shaped by what is going on in the economy and the federal budget.

The GOP has found a religious fervor for a simple morality:

Tax cut = Good
Tax increase = Bad.

Like most religious dogma steeped in faith and not fact, it is stupid.

Just for kicks here are several articles that show how false the Laffer Curve is…

Debunking One of the Worst Ideas in Economics (http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/economist/4065)


In this column, I'm focusing on bad economics. In fact, I'm going to write about what I consider to be the two worst economic ideas -- or at least ideas that pass as economics, though both have been thoroughly repudiated by nearly all credible thinkers.

…snip…

Neither the Reagan nor the George W. Bush tax cuts were "self-financing," as the Laffer disciples like to argue. According to The Economist -- my former employer and no bastion of left-wing thought -- the current Bush Administration's top economist, Gregory Mankiw, estimated that decreasing taxes on labor would generate enough growth to recoup only about 17 cents for each lost dollar; a tax cut on capital is better, paying for more than half of itself. Still, the bottom line from the Bush Administration itself is that tax cuts reduce Uncle Sam's take.

So why does Laffer's sketch on Dick Cheney's cocktail napkin rank near the top of my list of bad economic ideas? Because, when applied to the U.S., it's intellectually dishonest. The Laffer Curve offers the false promise that we can cut taxes without making any sacrifice on the spending side, and that's simply not true. It's the economic equivalent of arguing that you can lose weight by eating more.


Tax Cuts Don't Boost Revenues (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1692027,00.html)


If there's one thing that Republican politicians agree on, it's that slashing taxes brings the government more money. "You cut taxes, and the tax revenues increase," President Bush said in a speech last year. Keeping taxes low, Vice President Dick Cheney explained in a recent interview, "does produce more revenue for the Federal Government." Presidential candidate John McCain declared in March that "tax cuts ... as we all know, increase revenues." His rival Rudy Giuliani couldn't agree more. "I know that reducing taxes produces more revenues," he intones in a new TV ad.

If there's one thing that economists agree on, it's that these claims are false. We're not talking just ivory-tower lefties. Virtually every economics Ph.D. who has worked in a prominent role in the Bush Administration acknowledges that the tax cuts enacted during the past six years have not paid for themselves--and were never intended to. Harvard professor Greg Mankiw, chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisers from 2003 to 2005, even devotes a section of his best-selling economics textbook to debunking the claim that tax cuts increase revenues.

[shiva2999]

It's unbelieveable how much ridiculous right-wing bullshit has wormed it's way into America's consciousness as stuff that "everybody knows".

[Ralonzo]

One thing notacon: The Laffer curve is real - tax receipts will increase after a tax cut. The problem, as usual, is that it's not just that simple, and yet most commentary boils down to a 10 second soundbite that makes right wing guys just yell "Lower taxes now! It'll increase revenue!"

I think a lot of people actually do understand that it's not that simple, but the constraints of the message board (and, probably, the failings of U.S. primary education) make it difficult for many to take the time to write coherent arguments.

As long as this has become a hijacked economics thread, be very careful if you're heavy in bonds come tomorrow (Friday 2/15). There's a confluence that, if a certain trigger event happens, could make them completely melt down, and when they go, there's no action the PPT can take to stop a 4-5% single day dive across the board.

Batten down dem hatches.

[Ralonzo]

It's unbelieveable how much ridiculous right-wing bullshit has wormed it's way into America's consciousness as stuff that "everybody knows".

Oh come on. There's at least as much, probably loads more, left-wing bullshit. You could start with all the things most people seem to think are functions of the federal government.

If Tom Jefferson and John Adams and James Madison were around today, would they think the country has moved right or left since America's founding?

Face it: every concept that is north and east of your plot point on the above grid is "right-wing bullshit". It's relative.

[anEinherjer]

Come on notacon, you know I could go out there and find copious articles offering evidence that the Laffer Curve is a real phenomenon. I'm not arguing that tax rates must be pretty high (ie, dropping it from 21 to 20% likely won't do much).

But to argue that it's completely false is, well, completely false.

You are dead-on about one thing - the raise tax = bad, lower tax = good soundbite to the exclusion of all else.

For instance, I wish like hell it was phrased like this instead: raise spending = bad, reduce spending = good!

[anEinherjer]

Going back to Obama, there's one good reason to vote for him: He seems to be the best on the things Dems are SUPPOSED to be good on: civil liberties, a humble foreign policy, anti-war, and so on.

The biggest problem is that the Repub's are horrible even on the things Repubs are SUPPOSED to be good on (spending, basically).

So Obama's it, if you're going to vote for 1 of the 4.

[anEinherjer]

SWEET! I just found out I can groan myself! :rofl: