Making Buffalo Competitive Again

[anEinherjer]

A few assumptions:

1. Buffalo is, whether we want to admit it or not, in competition with the rest of the country, and the world, for people and jobs.

2. Buffalo's been losing this battle for decades. I believe mostly because we just don't see the forest for the trees, being stuck on parochial battles about specifics that really don't matter that much in the long run.

3. Everyone here knows everyone else's political / philosophical starting points. Arguing semantics, whether or not someone's willing to just dump their philosophy or accusing each other moonbat-ism isn't going to accomplish anything.

I guess if you don't want to agree with those points we can fight over them. But what I'm interested in is trying to find some ideas on how we can make Buffalo a more attractive place for businesses and people.

I don't believe in silver bullets. I don't believe one industry (like "bio-tech") can be the basis for everything else the way the auto or steel industries once were. I believe the entire region has to be able to compete and win on its merits - and if it can, we can stop the slide into irrelevance, and maybe then we can stop worrying about the Bills moving.

I know it can be done - places that don't look all that great without humans there somehow became hotbeds of economic growth: Charlotte NC out-competes Buffalo all the time, and what the hell?!? Weather that's too hot to enjoy in the summer time?

[Green Lantern]

What are Buffalo's assets?

[pcnorth22]

water is Buffalo's biggest asset...

I think UB's continued integration with the city is huge and needs to continue...

look at the Research Triangle, Silicon Valley...even Rochester with RIT and U of R...companies want good big schools integrated with the economy...


I also think that Amherst and Buffalo need to stop competing with each other for companies...like you said, its our region vs. the rest of the country for these jobs...

[dilbert]

The first thing we need to do is fix the way the state is run with unfunded mandates (i.e. the Medicaid mess). That is tantamount.

[Green Lantern]

water is Buffalo's biggest asset...

I think UB's continued integration with the city is huge and needs to continue...

look at the Research Triangle, Silicon Valley...even Rochester with RIT and U of R...companies want good big schools integrated with the economy...


I also think that Amherst and Buffalo need to stop competing with each other for companies...like you said, its our region vs. the rest of the country for these jobs...

Water, but how? What does being near water foster?

You have big Tech schools. Close to another state. Close to another country. Low property values.

Maybe you guys should look at how Pittsburgh revitalized itself back in the 90's.

[Green Lantern]

The first thing we need to do is fix the way the state is run with unfunded mandates (i.e. the Medicaid mess). That is tantamount.

I disagree since the rest of the state is not hurting like Buffalo.

[gilchristfan]

I disagree since the rest of the state is not hurting like Buffalo.

Most of upstate is, from what I understand. At least Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Utica.

NY remains one of the least friendly business states in the country, in terms of taxes and business regulation. (47th was the last ranking I've heard)


That's OK if you're the financial capital of the country, but its not OK if you're a smaller city like Buffalo or Syracuse. If you're the financial capital, businesses are willing to pay a premium for doing business there, no different than people are willing to pay a premium for living in Manhattan.

The upstate cities don't share the economic advantages (location, access to opportunity or access to wealth) that NYC does. What I mean is that the upstate cities don't have the type of attractiveness in other areas to offset a higher tax/regulatory burden.

There has been an age old discussion of whether NYC subsidizes upstate, or vice versa.

It doesn't really matter to me if downstate actually disperses more in state revenue to upstate cities than the upstate cities actually pay into the state pot. For a business, the tax burden is what it is. And for the most part, I don't know if the advantages of doing business in New York State (outside of NYC) are advantageous enough to do business in an upstate city, as opposed to do business in a state with a lower tax regulatory burden.

[pcnorth22]

Water, but how? What does being near water foster?

You have big Tech schools. Close to another state. Close to another country. Low property values.

Maybe you guys should look at how Pittsburgh revitalized itself back in the 90's.

industries that utilize fresh water...water scarcity is gonna grow as a problem in the southwest...

I got pretty deep into an interview process for a city job as an asst. to the development commissioner; working on econ. development issues...I had to write a memo in relation to an RFP that the city was sending to firms concerning Buffalo's need to utilize its freshwater resources more...

I guess I tanked on the memo, cuz I didn't get the job...but its definitely big on their radar...

[pcnorth22]

Most of upstate is, from what I understand. At least Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Utica.

NY remains one of the least friendly business states in the country, in terms of taxes and business regulation. (47th was the last ranking I've heard)


That's OK if you're the financial capital of the country, but its not OK if you're a smaller city like Buffalo or Syracuse. If you're the financial capital, businesses are willing to pay a premium for doing business there, no different than people are willing to pay a premium for living in Manhattan.

The upstate cities don't share the economic advantages (location, access to opportunity or access to wealth) that NYC does. What I mean is that the upstate cities don't have the type of attractiveness in other areas to offset a higher tax/regulatory burden.

There has been an age old discussion of whether NYC subsidizes upstate, or vice versa.

It doesn't really matter to me if downstate actually disperses more in state revenue to upstate cities than the upstate cities actually pay into the state pot. For a business, the tax burden is what it is. And for the most part, I don't know if the advantages of doing business in New York State (outside of NYC) are advantageous enough to do business in an upstate city, as opposed to do business in a state with a lower tax regulatory burden.

thats a great point...

I'm sure any audit of state funds would show money funnelling out of NYC to the rest of the state...

but

it doesn't address the issue that high taxation rates won't keep anybody out of NYC that wants to be there and has the means to do so...its the high taxation that hurts upstate...

[nehemiah]

buffalo's watefront is a liability. bethlehem steel poisoned all that land. it would take more to rehab the soil than it would ever make in a sale. you could have some docks, or something but it's cheaper to fly. it's not like an ocean harbour.

the UB connection is buffalo's biggest asset, IMO.

they should look to strengthen the healthcare industries. the proximity to canada is a gold mine for health care. do a boston-type thang.

[dilbert]

I disagree since the rest of the state is not hurting like Buffalo.

Just to add to what Gil said, it is also preventing a comeback. Other cities were not dependant on a dead business base like Buffalo was. It has killed Erie County and surrounding areas.

[dilbert]

buffalo's watefront is a liability. bethlehem steel poisoned all that land. it would take more to rehab the soil than it would ever make in a sale. you could have some docks, or something but it's cheaper to fly. it's not like an ocean harbour.

the UB connection is buffalo's biggest asset, IMO.

they should look to strengthen the healthcare industries. the proximity to canada is a gold mine for health care. do a boston-type thang.

I have to disagree with you on the clean-up part, at least partially.

It needs to be cleaned up for the long term viability of the area. Will the investment pay off immediate dividends? No. It would be a long term investment. But eventually it would be a great investment if it was developed correctly (maybe a long shot in this area).

I would also take advantage of wind power off the lake and use it to lower local costs of electricity. We are already screwed by NYS and being forced to ship the low cost power from the Falls out elsewhere. We need to develop a local source of low-cost energy and take it first before sending it elsewhere.

[pcnorth22]

buffalo's watefront is a liability. bethlehem steel poisoned all that land. it would take more to rehab the soil than it would ever make in a sale. you could have some docks, or something but it's cheaper to fly. it's not like an ocean harbour.

the UB connection is buffalo's biggest asset, IMO.

they should look to strengthen the healthcare industries. the proximity to canada is a gold mine for health care. do a boston-type thang.

I'm not talking about shipping when it comes to the waterfront...I'm talking about actual use of the water as a raw natural resource...same a coal, iron, whatever...

[Green Lantern]

You guys could wait until the oil runs out and fire up the Erie canal system again.

Maybe I should go change my vote about whether or not to tear down the grain elevators.

[anEinherjer]

buffalo's watefront is a liability. bethlehem steel poisoned all that land. it would take more to rehab the soil than it would ever make in a sale. you could have some docks, or something but it's cheaper to fly. it's not like an ocean harbour.

It's not like the steel industry used every inch from Angola to Lewiston. :)

the UB connection is buffalo's biggest asset, IMO.

they should look to strengthen the healthcare industries. the proximity to canada is a gold mine for health care. do a boston-type thang.

These are good thoughts. Make it real easy for those frustrated with one system to try out another - or at least have easy access to the advanced research and treatments that are available in the U.S. that aren't in Canada yet.

I also like the idea of UB doubling in size, that'll be good in the long run.

[anEinherjer]

Wind power on the waterfront is an awesome idea.

Clean-up of the steel sites is important, but I wonder how much clean-up you'd really need to do to pop a clay cap on top and turn it into a high-rent golf course?

[anEinherjer]

It occurs to me that other places in the U.S. are definitely more "business-friendly". I don't care what that means, exactly (taxes, regulatory burdens, etc). You all know the way I feel about that stuff, but it's beside the point.

I think one of the major things Buffalo has to do is look to make businesses easy to start and operate - tear down as much of the pain as they can locally. Of course there's still state crap to deal with, but it seems like we ought to be investing in "incubator" resources, small business loans, extra assistance for new start-ups, incentives (like "no taxes for a decade") to hire locals, whatever. Even if it costs local revenue, screw it - just pass the buck up to Albany! :)

And yeah - absolutely stop the stupid Amherst vs. Buffalo fighting. That's doing noone any good at all.

[anEinherjer]

In answer to aqua's original question, I think weather is one of Buffalo's real assets, but it's difficult to get people to see it.

* No water shortage. Atlanta's lookin' great now, huh? Phoenix? Water fights in California? Fresh water is going to be huge in the next hundred years.

* Global warming will help! Since all proposals anywhere to do anything about global warming can't stop what's already underway, we should play up the fact that Buffalo's about to get a little more balmy! 3 seasons are already picture perfect, and winter will only shorten up as long as the climate continues to warm.

* Ski country is close by. And cheap. You can get outside in the winter and play. It's all good. Bills games (for now hehehe) make December fun, and hey SOMEDAY there will be a game here in January again.....

* The "horrible" winters toughen you up. You never hear Buffalo whining about 18 inches of snow. Buffalonians tend to tense up when they're goofed on with "north pole" comparison, but I play it up every chance I get. Buffalo, where men are men and women are too!

[Buffalo1]

buffalo's watefront is a liability. bethlehem steel poisoned all that land. it would take more to rehab the soil than it would ever make in a sale. you could have some docks, or something but it's cheaper to fly. it's not like an ocean harbour.

the UB connection is buffalo's biggest asset, IMO.

they should look to strengthen the healthcare industries. the proximity to canada is a gold mine for health care. do a boston-type thang.


wE HAVE TO DO MORE TO CONSERVE THE COLLEGE GRADS FROM UB AND THE OTHER UNIVERSITIES BY DOING MORE CONTINUING RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT.

[FamousAmos]

It occurs to me that other places in the U.S. are definitely more "business-friendly". I don't care what that means, exactly (taxes, regulatory burdens, etc). You all know the way I feel about that stuff, but it's beside the point.

I think one of the major things Buffalo has to do is look to make businesses easy to start and operate - tear down as much of the pain as they can locally. Of course there's still state crap to deal with, but it seems like we ought to be investing in "incubator" resources, small business loans, extra assistance for new start-ups, incentives (like "no taxes for a decade") to hire locals, whatever. Even if it costs local revenue, screw it - just pass the buck up to Albany! :)

And yeah - absolutely stop the stupid Amherst vs. Buffalo fighting. That's doing noone any good at all.

UB could follow in SUNY Fredonia's footsteps in building an incubator building downtown...

http://www.fredonia.edu/incubator/

[dilbert]

Wind power on the waterfront is an awesome idea.

Clean-up of the steel sites is important, but I wonder how much clean-up you'd really need to do to pop a clay cap on top and turn it into a high-rent golf course?

Of course it is awesome. All of my ideas are awesome. Try to keep up.

Most/all of that soil needs to be removed. It would leech into the new clay and soild if not removed. That area is a mess. Not to mention all of the old buildings that are sitting there full of all kinds of crap (and causing further pollution).

[twosheds]

Hope for climate change. Once Florida is an ocean and most of the south a desert, Buffalo will look more appealing.

[nehemiah]

It's not like the steel industry used every inch from Angola to Lewiston.well - you got the chemical factory up there.

that river is ****ed on both ends.

[anEinherjer]

Of course it is awesome. All of my ideas are awesome. Try to keep up.

Most/all of that soil needs to be removed. It would leech into the new clay and soild if not removed. That area is a mess. Not to mention all of the old buildings that are sitting there full of all kinds of crap (and causing further pollution).

Nice :)

But really, the leeching thing isn't too much a concern, otherwise no landfill would be able to be built.

[nehemiah]

i like the alternative energy ideas. make buffalo a hub for alternative energies. make UB an alternative energy research capital of the world.

look at this badboy --> http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/09/18/driving.iceland/index.html

less geothermal possibilities... but plenty of water and wind and sun to go around.

[anEinherjer]

Alt energy is fantastic. Wind companies will pay you something like $3k per year to put a turbine on your land out in Wyoming County (and Livingston, I think).

Thing is, half the freaks out there are afraid the spinning blades cause evil things like birth defects. :)

[nehemiah]

But really, the leeching thing isn't too much a concern, otherwise no landfill would be able to be built.well, you also don't revitalize the areas where a landfill exists, right?

the leeching thing is a HUGE problem.

soil restoration costs beacoup dolares.

[dilbert]

I feel so dirty agreeing with nehemiah.

To make the land viable for more than greenfields or wetlands, it needs to be cleaned up.

[ddpderek]

Alt energy is fantastic. Wind companies will pay you something like $3k per year to put a turbine on your land out in Wyoming County (and Livingston, I think).

Thing is, half the freaks out there are afraid the spinning blades cause evil things like birth defects. :)

I am from Attica and I can truly say that most people in the area support Wind Energy mainly due to fact that it will reduce the energy bills. The Prison is one of its main supporters for obvious reasons.

Alt energy and Science would be a great way for the area to grow. UB and U of R are both strong and well known Universities that could really help the area.

Also We could build Rochester around the Hospital and really get it growing. Cleveland is heavily set up around the Cleveland Clinic and it has helped them so much.

I also think it would not be a bad idea to get some more Casinos in Buffalo and try to get some main attractions to come to town. I think that it be a attractive city for a large boxing event as we have shown that we are great sports fans.

Also we obviously need to find away to start up more restaurants down town. I know thats a minor thing but it would help.

[pcnorth22]

I would love to see hundreds of windmills on the waterfront...

that would change the image of the city in the alt energy field for sure...

[Green Lantern]

Nice :)

But really, the leeching thing isn't too much a concern, otherwise no landfill would be able to be built.

New landfills are covered at the bottom with clay and then sealed at the top too. Beside that, I think it is currently illegal to just go over contaminated ground and build on it. Get the EPA to put the area on the Superfund list and when you number comes up, they will pay to fix it.

[Green Lantern]

i like the alternative energy ideas. make buffalo a hub for alternative energies. make UB an alternative energy research capital of the world.

look at this badboy --> http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/09/18/driving.iceland/index.html

less geothermal possibilities... but plenty of water and wind and sun to go around.

Penn State is doing this very thing.

[anEinherjer]

I feel so dirty agreeing with nehemiah.

To make the land viable for more than greenfields or wetlands, it needs to be cleaned up.

Greenfields = golf course, which is what I said. ;)

[anEinherjer]

I would love to see hundreds of windmills on the waterfront...

that would change the image of the city in the alt energy field for sure...

The ride from the airport to downtown Copenhagen sure looks nice and I think I remember they 'only' had a few dozen...

[anEinherjer]

New landfills are covered at the bottom with clay and then sealed at the top too. Beside that, I think it is currently illegal to just go over contaminated ground and build on it. Get the EPA to put the area on the Superfund list and when you number comes up, they will pay to fix it.

When you write this I hear Conan O'Brien's old skit "In the yeeeear two thouuuuuusand" except with a three instead of a two. :D

[Green Lantern]

When you write this I hear Conan O'Brien's old skit "In the yeeeear two thouuuuuusand" except with a three instead of a two. :D

Hell, I'd prefer the government to get the money from the people who made the mess. Since they have avoided prosecution through various means and environmental clean-up is not a very high priority for politicians, you have to get at the end of the line and wait your turn like everybody else.

[dilbert]

It is hard to punish the people who made it sense many are dead, have no money and/or were not breaking the law at the time.

[Green Lantern]

It is hard to punish the people who made it sense many are dead, have no money and/or were not breaking the law at the time.

Tell that to other industries who had to pay retro-actively.

[notacon]

I wrote this long winded post in a Bills thread about Mr. Wilson's Toronto thing. Sorry, but this is too complex an issue to cover in a few sentences. Taxes are an overblown and overused excuse for WNY's problems. I think using them as a reason just makes the problem worse because it is a false issue which obscures the real underlying problems.

Here is what I wrote...

Buffalo and WNY have many issues but there are two that are mentioned more than many, and I just don’t buy it.

“High” taxes and failure of politicians to “bring” jobs to WNY.

The tax issue is always on the tip of the tongue with conservative Republicans and in many cases it is simply tired old rhetoric. Indeed, the blaming of “high” taxes is usually counterproductive since it tends to obscure the many real issues that prevent one area from attracting business and jobs.

“High” taxes did not drive Bethlehem Steel away…”high” taxes did not drive auto parts manufacturing away.

In fact, taxes in WNY are not significantly “higher” than most parts of the country. NYS taxes are the same all over the state, but they have not slowed down growth in many areas. Federal taxes are the same all over the country and that has not slowed down growth for many areas.

That leaves us with property taxes. Sorry guys, they are maybe and I mean maybe marginally higher. The reason they are higher is one part of the Catch 22…people leaving and reducing the available tax base.

In any event, of all the reasons that a company decides to locate or expand in any given area, property taxes, and taxes in general are a much lower significance than most people think.

P&L statements and business plans are always based on percentages of actual or expected sales. Some fixed expenses, like depreciation, land cost or leasing cost is usually fixed and as sales rise the percentage of sales that they eat are reduced.

Property, and other taxes are a very small percentage of any business’ overall sales…especially in manufacturing. There are two other expenses that are much more volatile in respect that they rise and fall according to sales.

Labor and cost of goods sold.

For example, depending on the type of business, cost of goods sold can easily consume 50% to 60% of sales and labor 25% to 30%. Taxes are almost always in the single digits. Profitability is ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS better addressed with reducing labor and costs of goods sold. Increased productivity, defined as achieving higher percentage of sales while labor costs raise (or are reduced) at a lower rate.

Attempts to reduce cost of goods sold…raw materials…is an ongoing process that has to be balanced with maintaining quality standards to ensure no loss of sales.

Taxes, and especially property taxes, have little effect on location decisions and profitability concerns in relation to CGS and labor.

There have been many attempts to create “industrial development zones” that offer much reduced if not non-existant taxes and all they have done is reward business owners that would have done their expansion plans any way. They are a huge waste of dollars and all they accomplish is to raise the taxes of schlubs like you and me.

Indeed, WNY has some built in advantages that easily overcome and property tax issues. Cheap land and utility expense.

Here are two good examples.

The company I work for now, used to do almost all of their manufacturing in their Ohio plant. Today, we hardly do any.

The reason? American labor cannot compete with $.10 an hour labor rates of China. It is MUCH cheaper, and therefore allows us to compete, if we take the time and effort to train Chinese, or S. Korean manufacturing plants to produce our goods with the quality we need. More difficult manufacturing tasks are relegated to the better educated (and more expensive) S. Korean plants. More repetitive and labor extensive tasks are relegated to China.

Our facility is still in their location that they have been for over 100 years. In actuality it is an area of Ohio that is very much like WNY…declining population, jobs leaving. This has ensured a pool of cheap labor for the tasks we still do maintain…marketing, shipping, accounting etc.

Taxes did not come into the equation whatsoever in deciding to shed 40 to 50 manufacturing jobs.

Secondly, one company that I represented when I was independent was located right here in Rochester, NY. They did some manufacturing, although that has slowly but surely moved “off shore”. Another company, that does extensive manufacturing bought the local one. They are based in Long Island, NY.

The land, tax, labor…EVERYTHING is more expensive in LI as compared to WNY. The Rochester location was closed in 2004 after 8 years of new ownership. At first some of the manufacturing tasks were relocated to WNY because of cost saving. Eventually the reality of having two locations was deemed too inefficient to maintain.

They picked LI. Why?!?!? The biggest reason given was they were having a hard time having people move from LI to Rochester because of the weather…the “sun never came out” they complained.

Second reason was “there is nothing going on in Rochester. Being close to the action in absurdly expensive LI, maintaining residence in what one is used to overruled any cost savings.

I am not saying that “high” taxes are not a factor in attracting and keeping business in any given area. What I am saying is that is MUCH less of a concern than most people think.

Secondly, the idea that politicians should be responsible for “creating jobs” is INSANE!!! Government is not here to create jobs. The can create jobs only two ways…expand government employment which of course results in higher taxes…and to spend tax dollars with useless projects enriching local businesses. Again, the result is increased taxes.

Government’s role should be to help produce an environment that makes it easer to operate a business. Certainly, lower taxes and reduced regulation can help achieve that, but it is not the panacea that it may seem. Taxes and regulation are all over this country. The BIGGEST reason for many jobs leaving this area is cheap foreign labor.

What is the answer?!?! Hell If I know.

The weather is a HUGE factor. I have visited 34 states and too many cities to count. When I start talking about each area I am visiting, I always ask about housing costs and taxes. Almost EVERY SINGLE area I have visited have MUCH higher housing costs and just about the same taxes. Any difference in taxes is almost ALWAYS made up with differences in houses costs.

Secondly, when I am asked where I am from, and answer either “Upstate NY” or “Rochester” I get an almost universal response…”Wow…you are buried in snow up there huh?” or “It’s really cold up there”.

When we go on talking and I tell them that I was born and raised in Buffalo, the talk goes to the apoplectic.

“OH MY GOD…that’s terrible. How did you stand it?!?!” “Wow…talk about being close to the Artic Circle” are the normal responses.

I give the usual attempt to try and explain the weirdness of lake effect snow and ensuring them that it really is not that bad…but it is always in vain.

Don’t discount the reality that bad perception, bad weather and preconceived notions are huge factors in WNY’s problems.

To over inflate the importance of “high” taxes and ineffective politicians will NEVER address the real problems.

[anEinherjer]

notacon I wish I could thank you more than once for that.

On taxes, I remember once we had a blow out on it. When it comes to business I agree with you 100% - but not for individuals. ;) When I hear "taxes" from people I really think it's "the feeling that local gov't thinks it's too damn important". Local government up there is "in your face". You hear about it all the time. Rarely do I hear anywhere near the same crap down here in DC.

You have a village. A town. A county. Fighting with the state. Down here? Nothin'. Maybe an HOA that's a pain in the ass. The county's out of the way. Property taxes? Up there you gotta know the assessor and let him **** around with the assessment. Down here? Market value. Period. You can take it up with the county, but it's in the state constitution. No screwing around.

City and county whining about who gets a half a friggin penny? Nah. That's the kind of crap that fuels the perception about taxes and ineffective politicians, that's for sure. That, and Gaughan's report that shows Baltimore running with like 11 elected officials to Erie/towns/villages with like 430...

I do think "ease of doing business" is pretty significant. You mention "Government’s role should be to help produce an environment that makes it easer to operate a business." and I couldn't agree more. From what I've seen there are so many obnoxious little gotchas when trying to do business in Erie County. God help ya in Buffalo if you don't know someone - which is a shame.

Just pointing to "taxes" is lazy, for sure. But I think we can call out the ineffectiveness of politicians because they haven't been able to create a promising climate for new business to grow (by basically getting the hell out of the way).

As an aside, if jobs were leaving WNY mainly because of foreign labor, why isn't that happening all over the country? There are still PLENTY of jobs being created...

Well anyway, one thing that has to happen is we have to overcome the silly bias against our weather. Like I said, I'm proud of it. Stuff like the Winter Classic can go a long way there - does anyone bitch about getting too much snow in Boulder? :)

[anEinherjer]

You know what would be fun? Make Erie County a test bed for new education systems. Dump the standard "you live on this block you go to X school" system that's failing all over the country and try out some different option. Like education tax credits or something. Blow it all up and be out on the cutting edge of something.

And education seems to be a good place to start - the large population of blue collar guys in Buffalo makes the market for specialized labor thin. It should be incumbent on the politicians there to bust ass in creating the best pool of smart guys (and girls of course!) on the planet.

[GilPerreault]

Fresh water is one of Buffalo's greatest assets. Only 3% of the world's water is fresh.

[notacon]

notacon I wish I could thank you more than once for that.

On taxes, I remember once we had a blow out on it. When it comes to business I agree with you 100% - but not for individuals. ;) When I hear "taxes" from people I really think it's "the feeling that local gov't thinks it's too damn important". Local government up there is "in your face". You hear about it all the time. Rarely do I hear anywhere near the same crap down here in DC.

You have a village. A town. A county. Fighting with the state. Down here? Nothin'. Maybe an HOA that's a pain in the ass. The county's out of the way. Property taxes? Up there you gotta know the assessor and let him **** around with the assessment. Down here? Market value. Period. You can take it up with the county, but it's in the state constitution. No screwing around.

City and county whining about who gets a half a friggin penny? Nah. That's the kind of crap that fuels the perception about taxes and ineffective politicians, that's for sure. That, and Gaughan's report that shows Baltimore running with like 11 elected officials to Erie/towns/villages with like 430...

I do think "ease of doing business" is pretty significant. You mention "Government’s role should be to help produce an environment that makes it easer to operate a business." and I couldn't agree more. From what I've seen there are so many obnoxious little gotchas when trying to do business in Erie County. God help ya in Buffalo if you don't know someone - which is a shame.

Just pointing to "taxes" is lazy, for sure. But I think we can call out the ineffectiveness of politicians because they haven't been able to create a promising climate for new business to grow (by basically getting the hell out of the way).

As an aside, if jobs were leaving WNY mainly because of foreign labor, why isn't that happening all over the country? There are still PLENTY of jobs being created...

Well anyway, one thing that has to happen is we have to overcome the silly bias against our weather. Like I said, I'm proud of it. Stuff like the Winter Classic can go a long way there - does anyone bitch about getting too much snow in Boulder? :)

When I travel around the country, I always ask a few questions to try and compare their area with mine.

What kind of house do you have? How many square feet. How many bathrooms? How many bedrooms? etc...etc...

How much is it worth?

How much do you pay in property taxes?

In some areas, the value of a house is literally triple or quadruple what a comparable house in WNY costs.

But, their property taxes are either right about what I pay or usually 10% to 20% less (sometimes 10% to 20% higher).

To the people that may have a $1000 lower property tax bill, but their house cost $500,000 more for the same thing...I say..."I am much better off". Certainly much better off as total cost of living.

The more densely populated the area, the better my situation is because I don't have to spend so much time in my car commuting to work. Or, I don't have to plan my day around what the traffic is going to be.

I know you know what I am talking about anEin...if you still live in N VA. I work in the DC area 8 to 10 times a year and I have to schedule my whole day around the traffic. The first time I experienced it, I really had a hard time believing how bad it was.

There is no doubt that the various levels of local government is a pretty serious impediment to...well...just about everything.

Your next post breeched the subject of education...and it really is a big expense...BUT, we really do have better schools here than the south.

How about we get rid of all the stupid little school districts and pool their money to make things more efficient and cost effective. There are so many better ways that schools can be run and financed.

Property taxes is one of the worst way to finance local government and schools. It places a burden unevenly and then we are expected to make up for all the tax free properties like religious and charitable property.

The Catholic Church is one of the richest organizations in the world and they get a free ride!

Anyway...the turf fights and local bullshit is astounding.

And yeah...I remember I little flare up some time ago. But, also remember that it was the catalyst for us coming to see eye to eye and allowing each other to have our own opinions with a little respect.

I really consider you a friend now. ;)

[anEinherjer]

Well I'm still a little bitter, but.......... :D

[Green Lantern]

Well I'm still a little bitter, but.......... :D

A little pillow bitter? What? I thought you were married.

[35Pete]

industries that utilize fresh water...water scarcity is gonna grow as a problem in the southwest...

I got pretty deep into an interview process for a city job as an asst. to the development commissioner; working on econ. development issues...I had to write a memo in relation to an RFP that the city was sending to firms concerning Buffalo's need to utilize its freshwater resources more...

I guess I tanked on the memo, cuz I didn't get the job...but its definitely big on their radar...

For example? You have me at a loss for at least a plethora of industries that absolutely require massive amounts of fresh water.

Steel is one. But you can't compete with $19/day labor in Asia.

What else?

[35Pete]

Hope for climate change. Once Florida is an ocean and most of the south a desert, Buffalo will look more appealing.

There's no proof that will ever happen. Until there is evidence, REAL evidence, don't worry about it.

Hell, had we listened to the global cooling scare then Buffalo would have been evacuated in 1973. The difference today is that global warming has much more effective marketing. These people are not stupid. They learn.

But the reality as I see it, and having an in-law deep into Buffalo politics (he's a real ass hole, he really is) is that Buffalo's political class, be it democrat or republican is very fiefdom oriented. True, there is a time and place for local gov't to be involved. That's a derivation of state's rights (remember, I don't oppose gov't. Just centralized gov't). But, listening to my brother in law (again, a real ass hole) and an attorney friend of his once discuss Bass Pro Shops made me sick to my stomach.

They bitched about why something like a dozen additional local governmental agencies were not involved. And why his group couldn't get in on the action. It was sickening.

It's not really who is in power. It's the mindset and quality of the Buffalo political class. They truly are a bunch of idiots. Very territorial. And too invasive. Pick the party. It does not matter.