American Empire

[Green Lantern]

Interesting argument:

John Quincy Adams: If the US government ever abandons it's philosophy of non-intervention and goes abroad looking for monsters to fight, it will become the dictatress of the world.

Jacob Hornberger: 'What other regime [today] has the power to go into any country on earth and kidnap its citizens, with impunity, through the power of the president's own private, secret army; the CIA; and that's what it is: it's his army. It is not only above the law, it is the law. It can go into any country on earth and kidnap any foreign citizen and send him into the clutches of a montrous regime for the express purpose of torturing him."

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[Green Lantern]

Here is the website with the rest of the lecture:

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0801g.asp

[McD]

Yes, we have that power. No it's not right, nor is it too smart on our part. I understand the basic premise of how/why it started, but it's gotten a bit out of hand. I don't see this happening much longer because other countries will find ways (alliances against us) to prevent it from happening.

[35Pete]

Yes, we have that power. No it's not right, nor is it too smart on our part. I understand the basic premise of how/why it started, but it's gotten a bit out of hand. I don't see this happening much longer because other countries will find ways (alliances against us) to prevent it from happening.

I fail to entirely understand the premise. Perhaps you could explain it to me. And no, I am not being cute.

[Meathead]

i thought john quincy adams was dead

[McD]

I fail to entirely understand the premise. Perhaps you could explain it to me. And no, I am not being cute.

Of what Pete? To see how the US would rather fight it's battles off our own soil? Not always being "military" engagements either. We tried Isolationism, and watched the World almost collapse around us. We tried Deterrence, but that couldn't be done entirely on our own lands. We felt compelled (right or wrong) to stop "it" from happening before it reached our shores. I've mentioned this before in other threads. Once you hear about cancer...you treat it before it spreads...in a very simplistic theory.

[Green Lantern]

Of what Pete? To see how the US would rather fight it's battles off our own soil? Not always being "military" engagements either. We tried Isolationism, and watched the World almost collapse around us. We tried Deterrence, but that couldn't be done entirely on our own lands. We felt compelled (right or wrong) to stop "it" from happening before it reached our shores. I've mentioned this before in other threads. Once you hear about cancer...you treat it before it spreads...in a very simplistic theory.

This is a familiar point of view since we beat Spain and took Guam et al. I do not know that it fits reality though.

In your own previous post you assert that others will band together in alliance to counter-act our supremacy, which is, too, a popular theory, but that refutes your own argument above that we tried Isolationism and that it did not work. Nature abhors a vacuum and if we stepped down others would fill that space just as you assert others will ally to counter-balance us.

[anEinherjer]

Aqua, are you suggesting that if we weren't sticking our fingers in every pot aroudn the world that another nation would do it? Or that perhaps other nations would each fill a small amount of the void?

If that is what you're suggesting, I wonder if it's true, or if there's some historical precedent for it.

[Green Lantern]

Aqua, are you suggesting that if we weren't sticking our fingers in every pot aroudn the world that another nation would do it? Or that perhaps other nations would each fill a small amount of the void?

If that is what you're suggesting, I wonder if it's true, or if there's some historical precedent for it.

It is a theory. I do not recall saying "sticking our fingers in every pot".

If we are the pre-eminent power and hold sway over others and then stepped down, other regional power structures would form and we would have other regional powers in the world, is the theory. Someone is always the big boy on the block.

America, and this is my view, should not try and be the big boy of the world because that is unworkable and it overextends us. Our economy was strong enough to leverage the Soviets but I do not think it is strong enough to hold out against Germany and France, China, Russia, and Brazil all at the same time. At some point, I think, we will reach a tipping point and as the poet says, 'things fall apart; the center cannot hold.'

[35Pete]

Of what Pete? To see how the US would rather fight it's battles off our own soil? Not always being "military" engagements either. We tried Isolationism, and watched the World almost collapse around us. We tried Deterrence, but that couldn't be done entirely on our own lands. We felt compelled (right or wrong) to stop "it" from happening before it reached our shores. I've mentioned this before in other threads. Once you hear about cancer...you treat it before it spreads...in a very simplistic theory.

So is this similar to the concept of a pre-crime? Seriously?

[uppy]

Like it or not, we are a global power with global interests and, from time to time, it will become necessary to stomp the raw shit out of those who find themselves perpendicular to our interest. ~ uppy

That's just the way goes

John Quincy Adams: If the US government ever abandons it's philosophy of non-intervention and goes abroad looking for monsters to fight, it will become the dictatress of the world.

Sorry John,but men don't sail in wooden ships powerded by sails any more...the times
have changed

[35Pete]

Like it or not, we are a global power with global interests and, from time to time, it will become necessary to stomp the raw shit out of those who find themselves perpendicular to our interest. ~ uppy

That's just the way goes



Sorry John,but men don't sail in wooden ships powerded by sails any more...the times
have changed

I hope "they" stomp the shit out of you. Medicine is bitter, huh?

[Dr. Who]

At some point, I think, we will reach a tipping point and as the poet says, 'things fall apart; the center cannot hold.'

Yes, that's always true. Friend of mine thinks any successful polity has its greatest virtue at the founding and afterwards it is one long holding on until one reaches a decadence too grave to withstand. There is something fatalist in this view that I would like to reject, though history is rarely fodder for optimism.

On a lesser note, I am damn sick of that Yeats' quote. It was good when it was written but it threatens to become banal through over-application. And yes, I'm quite sure I've used it myself . . .

[Green Lantern]

Yes, that's always true. Friend of mine thinks any successful polity has its greatest virtue at the founding and afterwards it is one long holding on until one reaches a decadence too grave to withstand. There is something fatalist in this view that I would like to reject, though history is rarely fodder for optimism.

On a lesser note, I am damn sick of that Yeats' quote. It was good when it was written but it threatens to become banal through over-application. And yes, I'm quite sure I've used it myself . . .

I think every empire's reach eventually exceeds its grasp.

And Yeats was talking about us slouching.

[McD]

This is a familiar point of view since we beat Spain and took Guam et al. I do not know that it fits reality though.

In your own previous post you assert that others will band together in alliance to counter-act our supremacy, which is, too, a popular theory, but that refutes your own argument above that we tried Isolationism and that it did not work.

Aqua, we did this back in WWI, we stayed nuetral for as long as we could, said it was Europes War, but got drawn into War thanks to some buddies that needed a hand. If we keep doing what we're doing now (which appears to be nothing more than pissing other countries off) they'll tire of our shenanigans and do something about it.


Nature abhors a vacuum and if we stepped down others would fill that space just as you assert others will ally to counter-balance us.

Step down may not be the best terminology, but maybe slowing down will help and prevent the "need" for anyone else to step up.

[McD]

So is this similar to the concept of a pre-crime? Seriously?

Yeah Pete kind of. have you ever played King of the Hill? Well in our case I guess we're just not waiting until they're right on top of us to keep them from knocking us down. As soon as we see the potential of that happening, we do something about it. This isn't my "the way it should be" claim. That's just the way I see how it's been played so far. I think we're scared as hell NOT to be the big dog.

[Green Lantern]

Aqua, we did this back in WWI, we stayed nuetral for as long as we could, said it was Europes War, but got drawn into War thanks to some buddies that needed a hand. If we keep doing what we're doing now (which appears to be nothing more than pissing other countries off) they'll tire of our shenanigans and do something about it.



Step down may not be the best terminology, but maybe slowing down will help and prevent the "need" for anyone else to step up.

If we are the regional power of the America's, my question stands as to why we would want to help determine the regional power of Europe. From there, we help determine the regional power of the Middle East when oil is found. Next, we help determine the regional power of Asia.

All governments like money, we could deal with any one who dominated a region. The reasons we get involved, as I see it, is that interests in who wins have been vested and someone in the US stands to lose if the fight goes one way or another. I do not see why those interests should have the power to sway the government out of neutrality and determine whether other humans shoot weapons at you.

[McD]

If we are the regional power of the America's, my question stands as to why we would want to help determine the regional power of Europe. From there, we help determine the regional power of the Middle East when oil is found. Next, we help determine the regional power of Asia.

Well, I think the thought process at that time was that once Europe had a Superpower, it might only be a matter of time before it made it way to our side of the pond.


All governments like money, we could deal with any one who dominated a region. The reasons we get involved, as I see it, is that interests in who wins have been vested and someone in the US stands to lose if the fight goes one way or another. I do not see why those interests should have the power to sway the government out of neutrality and determine whether other humans shoot weapons at you.

Whoa Aqua, the mighty dollar has quite the reputation, and its usually not a good one. Big business and big people have started conflicts on their own. This even follows Pete's/Shiva's 9/11 policy.

[Green Lantern]

Well, I think the thought process at that time was that once Europe had a Superpower, it might only be a matter of time before it made it way to our side of the pond.



Whoa Aqua, the mighty dollar has quite the reputation, and its usually not a good one. Big business and big people have started conflicts on their own. This even follows Pete's/Shiva's 9/11 policy.

I think you misunderstand me. Any country would prefer prosperity to poverty. Confusing means with ends is not common to all, however.