why do we bother even listening to shiva or wys??????

[bduff54]

no offence to you guys but when ruben brown, moulds, AVP all say that this is a great pick-up and they respect this guy so much then that is the only opinion that truly matters. they have ben on the field with the guy, they have seen him play up close they have been beaten by him. so wys you can post all your stats and stuff but have you ever played against the man??? These are the opinions that truly matter and i have yet to hear a negative thing!

You're right duff!

I don't have the experience that you do playing next to him or adding up yardage and attempt stats to support my viewpoints.

There's often a gap between perception and reality. I think it's larger than many people realize here. We will find out however!

BTW duff, you live in Toronto, right?

How many season tickets did you buy this year seeing as you only live 1 1/2 hours or so from RWS?

I live what, 7 hours from there and I renewed my 10 and added 2 more for 12. I assume you have at least 2 or 4 with your huge fandom! No?

[Stealth01]

I listen to Mark because underneath the RJ-Cut-inflicted WysWings is a good guy who knows his football and loves the Bills. He gets hung up on whatever QB the crowd DOESN'T like, but he also makes some good points. Granted, to find them you have to go mad reading War and Peace online, but they're there.

I listen to Shiva because my job is boring right now and I need a good chuckle.

[bduff54]

no wys i don't own season tickets, i am a taking a year off school currently to pay for next sememster. i will go to a couple of games, so yo uahving season tickets make you a better fan than me?? i go to alot of leafs games and half the season ticket holders are guys in suits who don't even know who sundin is, so don't gimme that B.S. "perception and reality" yes wys they really played against him you just read from an almanac, for every stat you post there is an X factor in that game that you can't account for, an injury, a bad call, a broken finger.

[Stealth01]

I don't own season tickets. I live in Colorado. I own NFL SUNDAY TICKET, though. Does that count?

[askabry]

bduff...I have found more solace in ignoring his posts recently than responding. There is little point to conversing with him. You might try the same.

And congratulations for you, Wys. I honestly find the level of your support for the Bills, on a financial and time basis, impressive- including in that your capacity to post on this board.

I do not equate that to anything approaching acumen involving being a football analyst, however- which is what I would infer from your comments.

Indeed, let's see how the year comes out, shall we?

[TypicalBill]

guys i know its non of my business but i think that everybody has his own opinion and he's entitled to say it. im not saying that i agree with shiva or wys but it doesnt hurt to read what other BILLS fans think.

In the mean time, I think that it was a nice move that will help us big-time. But i couls also be wrong. we will only know next season.
:winksmile:

[LABillsFan]

I usually don't agree with either of them but they do have valid concerns when they post. As far as Bledsoe is concerned there is justification when the question is asked Which QB are we getting, the one in the late 90's or the sack prone int throwing qb of the last few years and was a #1 worth it. The Bills still have a lot of holes to fill and need time to develope. I personally think we are still an 7-9 8-8 team and would have liked to have waited another year before aquiring a top "NAME" QB.
Bledsoe is here to primarily fill seats his name will get people into the stadium. Wegmans bails out, attendance is down, 3-13 and hungry fans left starving. Remember KC getting Montana? This is much like that but where as Montana only had a couple of years left Bledsoe might have 3-4 years left in him. Superbowl? Not likely. Respectability yes. As far as Brown and Moulds go, of coarse they are happy, look who has been playing the QB position the last few years. I also didn't hear any negative things come out of their mouths directed at AVP either

[bduff54]

thats cool typical bill, but to pad all your arguments with almanacs gets boring sometimes.

Every one, huh duff? Essentially then, nothing that's ever happened to prevent the Pats from winning while Drew was on the team isn't Drew's fault!

I know. That's why I'm somewhat skeptical at the "overhype" here as to what one QB I consider only average or slightly better will do for us.

My point on the tix was to counter your bogus notion that somehow I'm no true fan simply b/c I'm not gonna run with the "Bledsoe's our savior" notion hook, line, and sinker. Instead I see a QB's who's struggled over the past 4 seasons and one who has the obvious, or what should be obvious, flaws that he has, significant ones, and I'm simply not going to believe that he's all-of-a-sudden quit playing like he has and start playing like Warner, McNabb, Manning, Marino, Kelly, Favre, or several other QBs who've had good seasons lately simply b/c you and other say so and when he never has.

You believe it and can, that's fine. But the truth is that he never has. He's never put up 30 TDs in a season in spite of tossing 1,000 yards more than some QBs have. He's never had a good or even solid playoff game. He isn't good on third downs. He hasn't played well against the league's best teams or vs. teams in our division including us.

you can deny those, but that doesn't negate them!

For you to start a thread like this simply shows your hate for me and shiva!

I'm sorry I have an opinion. I gotta tell ya, if I and shiva and a few others are correct, you're gonna owe us all more than an apology!

[Stealth01]

hey, LA. THe reason we get the good QB now -- he has a year to adjust. Next year, when we have more FA money, we fill the remaining gaps and make the run.

I agree. This year is 8-8, probably. Perhaps 7-9, 9-7. Next year, though, when we start filling in a FS, SS, and DT, this team will make some noise. Drew and the O will ahve had a year to get to know one another. They'll be "settled" in their system and each other. That's when an O starts to click.

[bduff54]

wys i don't hate you guys but i do hate your uppity outlook on things. you have been extremely wrong in almost everything thus far, you only see what you want to see, and will not admit when you don't know certain things ie: new englands o -line and the bengals defense. that is my problem i know these things and you don't. "everyone eh duff"? see this is where we differ, i know bledsoe has made mistake that cost new england and i know the bills made huge mistakes in regard to RJ. you only look at things the way you want to see them!!

[billsfanone]

FROM NOW ON, EVERYONE IGNORE DUMB POSTS.

"Indeed, let's see how the year comes out, shall we?"

That's all I'm askin' ask! Thanks.

I feel like some sort of outcast. At least 4 posters now have berated myself and shiva and one or two others who simply aren't sold on this move, especially for a first-round pick. Remember, in order for this move to be solid, it not only has to justify the salary DB's getting, but it also means Drew has to play like a #1 Draft Pick.

Like you said, time will tell. But I just spoke w/ a fellow football fan who told me that to cut Drew would mean our taking the cap hit now for the bonus that N.E. paid him. CP would know if that's true or not, but I believe it was an $8M bonus. ??

But if that's the case, and Bledsoe does happen to struggle here, by cutting him we would have to absorb a sizeable portion of that hit or continue to hang onto him at over $6M/yr.

So while this move may prove to be a good one, if not, we'll have completely wasted a first-rounder, a ton of money that we could have signed Adams with or another key player, and we'll have set ourselves back in our quest for a QB.

With today's FA market, you can no longer count on having a set of talent together for anymore than 2, 3 years if you're lucky. It would be a real shame to see it wasted b/c our highest paid player that we exchanged a first-round pick for, and one who consumed valuable cap space such that a key DT could not be signed. That's all.

Time will tell, but there is no question that many "ifs" have to come to pass in order for that to happen. They may very well, but I've been "around-the-block" a bit too much to realize that fan passion and enthusiasm don't always "carry-the-day!"

Bledsoe will have to play as a top 6 QB in order for this deal to be anywhere close to worthwhile. In doing so, he'll also have to take charge of games by himself when the running game stalls and he'll have to do it on occasion vs. teams that are among the league's best. That is also something that he's rarely done.

So, I'm optimistic, but I'm also realistic. While everyone looks at yards thrown for, I'm looking at what he did with those yards thrown for. I'm not seeing it the same as everyone else.

Make no mistake, this is a "make-or-break" move! The benefits of success are huge. But the ramifications of failure are perhaps even moreso damaging to our team.

[EricStratton]

Originally posted by wyswings

I'm sorry I have an opinion. I gotta tell ya, if I and shiva and a few others are correct, you're gonna owe us all more than an apology!

As with Ask, I get annoyed by your posts sometimes but respect the effort you put in. I usually don't agree with the conclusions but the time put in is commendable. Shiva is a different matter all together, his (or her) posts are usually nothing more than cut-and-paste jobs with little to no thought put into them.

As far as an apology if Drew doesn't do well this season, what on earth would a fan on a message board have to apologize for. If we have to say sorry for every FO move we support that doesn't live up to expectations I'm sure your appology for the RJ disaster or Shiva's for the Flutie mess are buried some place in old posts. I'll have to search later today.

[bduff54]

berated???? look man i'm not attacking you i'm just trying to point out that you may not always be right all the time and don't have to put others down by ignoring them and telling them they are not worthy of your time

[BBDAVE7]

There is more to a QB then just stats. Some guys win and some guys don't. Look at Trent Dilfer. He doesn't blaze up the stats, but the guy won like what, 20 straight games now.

[Stealth01]

I apologize.

What am I apologizing for again?

[BBDAVE7]

I am coming not far from you WYS. I've been up to see our boys twice. I think this year I might go and see the Pats game in NE. Does anyone know where their new stadium is located? Is it in Foxboro?

LOL BFO!!!

LA,

"Bledsoe is here to primarily fill seats his name will get people into the stadium."

That's exactly it! From a marketing perspective this was a phenominal move! However, the play is going to have to match the hype and if that doesn't happen, that's when the cold slap of reality could kick in.

Like they say, the greater the risk, the worse the fall if it happens. That's what we have here.

But I think that anyone would agree that unless Bledsoe plays like a top 6 QB, that he isn't worth that kind of money, commitment, and a first round pick.

So unless he is the type of QB to take over games and he plays up there with the likes of Favre, Warner, Manning, and McNabb, at least on occasion, we'll have to question whether or not this deal was worth it.

To trade all we did and pay as much as we are and take the cap risks that we are for a QB that turns out to be anything other than among the best is not worth it. If he plays average, as far as I'm concerned, he's not worth it. I don't care who we had at QB.

duff,

Whom have I put down! Ignorance again?


Eric,

I guess I didn't expect an amenible answer from you.

Several people have personally berated me and a couple of others simply for thinking that Drew's not all that you and others say he is. I don't think that's necessary nor justified. I don't do it to you or anyone else. I don't expect it in return.

Look at the title of this thread for cryin' out loud! Then ask yourself WTH you're talking about!

[LABillsFan]

Stealth,

It's out of my hands but I still would have liked to had a line with a year of playing together before getting a QB. If the OL struggles because they are not used to eachother or are inserted in different positions than last year, 1 missed assignment could cause the Bills to have a 5 mil. bench warmer. When KC got Montana they got one of the best QB's ever, but they did not upgrade the line as much as they should of and with his limited mobility, he got hammered hard and often. Yes the Bills upgraded their line but it is a young line. I do not want to see that happen to DB or any other Bills QB for that matter. I feel that AVP could lead us to 7-9 8-8 because of the steps the FO took this year and instead of DB we could have gotten help for Pat Williams.

I'm not alone in this either.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/sports/columns/0423story1_columns.shtml

I will contrast this to many of those who sit here and berate me as those who said last year that they wouldn't support the Bills or go to games b/c Flutie wasn't the QB!

I guess it was OK for them to do that, many of you here even, but not OK for me to buy 12 seasons even though I live over 400 miles away and make constructive criticisms about DB.

I'd would still love anyone of you critics of mine to at least agree that he hasn't had a good playoff game, or that his third down performance is lacking, or that he's struggled against both teams .500 or better and vs. teams in our division.

Instead I'm called a liar and other things even though those things are undeniably true. Unless of course 6-10 is a good record.

[EricStratton]

Wys, until you're sure about the cap hit /bonus situation, his cap hit isn't that much for a starting QB in this league and shouldn't be a pillar of your arguement. (BTW - the QB in the 2003 draft you spoke of before would cost more than DB if an early pick, right?)

Does Drew have to play top 6 to prove this a good deal, not really. He have to play well enough to win each week. If the team actually wins thats even better. Starting at 3-13, an 11-5/10-6 record I've seen posted is unrealistic. It would be great but 7-9/8-8 and havong a shot with breaks to hit 9-7/10-6 is more in line with reality IMO.

I speak the truth Fabs!

NO! You're cool about things. I'm not gonna get personal on this board b/c in spite of the fact that others do it, it isn't right nor is it what we want. If it's about me I usually let it stand however.

I like to argue and reason w/ people. But on this issue, DB's poop doesn't stink. In spite of the facts, he's gonna be the one to lead us to the promised land. What can I say! It's like arguing and discussing with people that the earth is round and not flat.

BTW, if DB doesn't "take us to the promised land" then this trade will have been sketchy. For what we've given up and are paying, he'd better do something other than 8-8 this year. He'd also better take a good load on himself during games!

[bduff54]

top 6??? is that your bar for a good deal. if we go 8-8 that is fine by me. we have huge holes that may not be filled. our defnesive front may be the weakest in footbal!!

[bduff54]

wys you baffle me, for rj it is a team game for bledsoe he's "better take a good load on himself during games" why the double-standard?

[TypicalBill]

i totally agree ES

ES,

If he goes 10-6 I'll be tickled. But if "he" does, then he's gonna have to put up some performances that indicate that it was offense contributed by him that did it. Any 16-13 wins I'm gonna rightly credit the D for.

BTW, what do you mean when you say "well enough to win?" Is that short for "if we win it's his doing? If not, then it isn't?"

What is well enough to win?

IMO with what we paid him, if he can't beat the better teams on the merits of his arm and savvy as a QB, then he isn't worth what we gave up. Period. Ie., if we could have achieved the same daggoned thing w/ 15 other QBs in this league then he will not have been worth it.

But comparing Van Pelt who isn't even a top 25 QB to him or RJ even, just b/c he's better than those two does not make him "tops."

[LABillsFan]

If the Bills don't need a top 6 QB than why did they pay as much for one who isn't. He is a talented QB but look haw many rushing yards the Bills QB's had the past 3 years. AVP wasn't mobile but his reads and release were quick, avoiding sacks and the necessity to run. Bledsoe is not mobile and if pressured he will go down or throw errant passes. Not my opinion, fact.

[EricStratton]

Wys, do you remember the original arguement by me and if I remember right, by Duff, Ask, etc. It was never Drew is the savior, the greatest, the leader to the promise land. It was always Drew is a better fit on the team as the starting QB that AVPand the Bills would be (and will now be with him here) a better team with Drew than with AVP.

The poster who put in the savior, greatest part is you. You used it as the basis of your posts that stats prove he isn't those things. Things the majority of posters (I'm not counting the new comers to the debate) never claimed Drew to be.

"top 6??? is that your bar for a good deal."

For a first-round pick, the prevention of an outstanding DT which we are in dire need of now, and a ~ $6M/yr. salary?

YES!!! Unquestionably!

If this were a $3M QB in exchange for a third round pick and little other risk then it would be significantly lower. But if we drafted Kerry Collins w/ a first round pick, I'd be disappointed. Drew's played only that well over the past two seasons. He and Collins are actually quite comparable in their last two full seasons each.

I'm sure you wouldn't even consider Collins a credible first rounder! I'm sad to see that your standards aren't a little higher.

What if Mike Williams plays like a slightly better than average OT? Is he gonna have been worth a first rounder and #4 overall? Of course that's different, right!

[EricStratton]

Originally posted by wyswings
ES,



BTW, what do you mean when you say "well enough to win?" Is that short for "if we win it's his doing? If not, then it isn't?"

What is well enough to win?



Who else knows what I mean by "well enough to win".

Its hard to explain but I'm sure plenty of fans (including you) know what I mean.

[bduff54]

so wht your saying is you want bledsoe to be in the top 6 in passing and td/ints/qb rating?? right? well if you knews kevin gilbride's offense (look under G in your almanac) you will know it is a run based offense, bledsoe will not be putting up kurt warner numbers

ES,

Drew's a better fit?

Only if we radically restructure our O! Not on the current team w/ the current system and set of plays!

Also, you speak as if Drew has no significant weaknesses! He has several.

I'm still open to discussing his "third-down miserableness" and why you think that won't be a factor this year! What? Are we gonna go deep every 3rd and 4?

I'm also still open to discussing Drew's 6-10 career record vs. the Phins, his 7-9 career record vs. the Jets. His 8-8 career record (including that ridiculous PI on H. Jones game to give him one of those, 7-9 otherwise) vs. the Bills and how none of that is gonna be a factor now that Miami, the Jets, and moreso N.E. won't be able to defense him anymore all of s sudden. He hasn't even had good personal games vs. those teams such that the reason they lost was not due to him.

I'm happy to discuss critically his seeming inability to have a good playoff game and why that might be and why even though he was surrounded by pro-bowl talent at all levels, why he was the weak link in just about every playoff game he's played in.

Care to discuss any of that and how we might prevent those same things from happening here in Buffalo? Or are we to simply put our heads in the sand hoping that "it won't be that way here" b/c it's Buffalo?

I'm game...

[bduff54]

i'm open wys to discussing his pro-bowl talent??? lets do that shall we?? brisby, jefferson, o-lineman(please name one other than armstrong) he had two top guys coates and marrtin

[EricStratton]

Originally posted by wyswings
"
What if Mike Williams plays like a slightly better than average OT? Is he gonna have been worth a first rounder and #4 overall? Of course that's different, right!

If in 8 - 10 years Mike is still a starting Tackle in the NFL, he was worthy of the #4 pick.

Collins was a first rounder on an expansion team and has been a disappointment. Far from the career of Bledsoe but we have already walked that road. (The poll in still up in the Watercooler section).

On a team that was 3-13, I don't expect a QB to step in and put up top 6 numbers. Thats just not realistic, 5.5 per year or not.

If the Bills become competative (even winning 13-10) and have a solid 7-9 or above season, the trade is a good one in my eyes. If they are a hard luck 6-10 and turn it around next season, same thing. I'm not judging the trade only on 2002, I'm looking longterm.

How about that cap hit/bonus question, any answers yet?

Originally posted by bduff54
berated???? look man i'm not attacking you i'm just trying to point out that you may not always be right all the time and don't have to put others down by ignoring them and telling them they are not worthy of your time

BDUFF, that's exactly what you're doing by starting a thread like this.

[bduff54]

socal, can't you see tht it gets annoying whne you ask a person to name a player on the new england offensive line and you get no response? this is after this perso nhas stated the o-lin was capable but yet he dosen't know any of their names?

[bduff54]

bruce armstorn and a buch of scrubs. bledsoe got sacked the most in the league like 3 years in a row

[THATHURMANATOR]

This is a stupid argument!!! Drew is our QB and lets get behind him. Wys seems to be the kind of guy is secretly wishing Bledsoe flops so he can say "I told you so" which is sad.