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Dr. Who
November 28th, 2007, 12:25:48 PM
Since it is beyond the capacity of this format to convey a fully coherent argument, I shall try only to adequately suggest certain directions of thought that I think necessary for a proper reflection upon Jesus, the Christ. Because of its relative length, I have thought it justified in starting a separate thread, though this effort is directed towards the common discussion on the nature of Jesus. I cannot provide the scholarly apparatus of confirming texts, nor shall I attempt to make smooth transitions between discrete elements. A certain amount of execrable simplification is unavoidable. I wish mainly to draw attention to a number of areas that are likely to be mistaken in popular discourse or at least lacking in sufficient context. As I can expect a fair number of those who might peruse this effort to find the tone irritating, the rhetoric precious or fake or somehow an expression of `know-it-all’ hubris, I can only say I’ve spent a lifetime contemplating these matters and that my authorial voice is no doubt developed over time, but natural to me. Finally, no one is forcing anyone to read what is repugnant to a particular sensibility.

The mysticism of the One and the Son of God: antique religio-philosophical speculation, whether in the East or the West, tends towards a universal conclusion. The Absolute is conceived in terms of unity and simplicity. The great neo-Platonist, Plotinus, is a late example, yet the beauty of his synthesis is both alluring and in some ways a uniquely creative retrieval of previous thinkers. The One is the fount of being from which there is an `over-flow’ into degrees of lesser being, each subsequent level more diminished than the previous one. The path of human wisdom attempts to return to the compact richness of the originating One, an effort requiring an ascetic renunciation of everything that is not the One. By this mode of thinking, the unique, the particular, the historical is an impediment to true liberation; indeed, one’s very individuality is a kind of illusion that must be renounced in order to attain a return to the One.

Now certainly there is a perduring element of truth in this kind of ascesis. The modern, Western Self is founded on notions quite distinct from both classical Greek philosophy and Christian theology. I would argue that it is an illusion that needs to be renounced and so a Christian and a Buddhist, for instance, may find here a point of agreement. Nonetheless, the nature of the Christian Absolute is radically distinct from all other conceptions. The revelation of the Trinity is irreducibly a mystery – rationalists of the Unitarian or the Moslem variety cannot but understand it as a poorly disguised polytheism. Within the understanding of Christian theology, what is revealed about the Absolute is that it eternally subsists as a substantive relation. The One is not isolate, but always already, to use the language of structuralism, a dynamism of gift in which the plenitude of divine being is poured forth, received, and returned in a festivity of eternal dance and joy. The Father is always fathering and the Son is eternally born; the love between them manifest not as neutral relation, but as Itself that most mysterious and creative Spirit that Christian theology reckons the secret artisan working amongst the wreck and tragedy of timely existence to raise up a Creation flourishing and free of the sorrows and loss that blight our present experience. This entire theology depends on the truth of Christian dogma regarding the Incarnation, the assertion that Christ is both fully human and fully divine. It initiates a new and unpredictable relation between the historical and the eternal. Properly understood, the eternal is not the enemy of the novel, historical moment. One is not presented with an adamantine plenitude (Parmenides notion of being) juxtaposed against the dramatic flux of time (Heracleitos). The Absolute does not crush the Relative.

Of course, I have had to invoke metaphor in my explanation here and how one understands and interprets metaphor will determine how well or little one is likely to credit this kind of discourse. I argue that metaphor has its roots in a divine richness of being, that what we discern of fatherhood from our own, best fathers is but a pale reflection of what divine fatherhood is. It does not require a mathematical clarity and precision for one to accept this proleptic pointing towards a mysterious, eternal Source. Metaphor has its own, internal standard of correctness, but it is essentially a poetic mode of perception that grasps or perhaps better, intimates and intuits a wealth and teleological direction in being that transcends our ordinary experience. Yet this does not leave one in a state of inchoate and abstract vagueness. On the contrary, if one is caught in that state that can only reject poetic insight as meaningless, one is simply unable to perceive as the genuine poet can. (Yes, yes, one knows that one man’s insight is another man’s blindness, but one is not compelled by any authentic logic to render all judgments equivalent through a leveling egalitarianism.)

Through metaphor, the poet is able to discern a real connection between the act of being embodied in a horse or a rose, for example, and some other act of being. This is not the same as simile, where one says something is like something else. Such a comparison is often helpful, but it does not rely upon a metaphysical connection that eludes a superficial kind of rationality. Metaphor points towards a dynamic openness in being, towards an upper limit of relation that can be intuited without the clarity of full comprehension. All this indicates that Christ doubtless did employ metaphor when he called himself life, light, and the door, but the use of such poetic devices does not militate against traditional Christian interpretation. As C. S. Lewis actually did point out, whether he used metaphor or not, Jesus was a bad teacher if he was unable to clarify for his closest disciples the intended meaning of that usage.

What do I mean above when I talk about superficial rationality? If one makes the rough assertion that the modern era began in Western Europe in the sixteenth-century and that we are now in a period one might call late modernity or that equally nebulous term, the post-modern, one may further assert that the concept of reason has narrowed over the course of the modern age. Today, one imbibes an uncritical scientism in the easy and unchallenged assumptions of the education machine, the media machine, the prevalent `common sense’ of those trained to accept blandly the pronouncements of those whose authority is essentially that they embody the `spirit of the times.’ What is scientism? Certainly not science, an undeniably compelling and useful method. Scientism is the ungrounded, parasitic, in fact, epistemological claim that objective truth is limited to what can be comprehended and affirmed through mathematical, experimental science. In short, it is a reductionism of the truth to that which can be verified by practitioners of the hard sciences and their associated experts in technical application. One cannot, of course, prove this limitation of the knowably real by scientific method, but adherents like to assume that the prestige of modern science in the modern world elides that lack of proof. The shame and loss involved in the acceptance of scientism is that the insights of poets and philosophers almost invariably tend to be shuffled off into the netherworld of subjective opinion. Indeed, the crucial, most fundamental questions of meaning evaporate as serious subjects in the search for truth or are dismissed as a bubble of dreaming opinion floating upon the surface of a mechanistic world consistent with a more-or-less quotidian and comfortable nihilism. The seeming endless triviality of the popular culture, indeed the majority of what considers itself high culture, is a logical deduction of modernist premises.

Yet the wisdom of antiquity and the high Middle Ages would not recognize such a poor dwarf of reason as that light that dignifies man above the lovely brutes. The merely instrumental reason of today lacks absolutely the dimension Aquinas named the intellectus and Bergson the intuition. Man’s rationality embraces that knowledge which is marked by wonder and the reverence for beauty. Deep insight that applies to all is not the product of universal method, but of unique moments of unrepeatable vision. Thus, what the artist can tell us is a legitimate apprehension of truth, just as much a product of reason as the cogitations of the scientific investigator. One might add that generally the scientist who makes the highest achievements in his field is likely to partake of the artists’ imagination. His reason expands beyond the narrow limits of a scientistic rationalism.

Much of this particular discussion is aimed at those who confidently assert that an easy historical progression has led us from the mythic-religious to the humane-philosophic to the heights of modern day science. This kind of positivist historiography is old in the tooth, but still carries a kind of dogmatic heft among those carried away by the last vestiges of an unconvincing materialist philosophy whose halcyon days are long past. One is not thereby, I caution, made ridiculous if one denies the supernatural; one simply should do so with greater critical and historical awareness than is usual, alas, from the Richard Dawkins, the Daniel Dennetts, and the Christopher Hitchens of the world. (The latter, I admit, I cannot help liking, though he is often odious and unruly in his behavior and scandalously dishonest in his argumentation. Perhaps for similar, eccentric sympathies, I am rather fond of Shiva.)

There is a Christology of sorts associated with advocates of positivist reason. The by now rather staid model for deconstructing so-called primitive Christianity into the hypothetical gap between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith depends upon a fairly long period of gestation where the historical Jesus gradually fades into obscurity, covered over by the accretion of myth, legend, what have you that various `faith communities’ independently or through mutual cross-pollination are supposed to invest with the spurious status of truth. (In some versions of this story, they are not necessarily spurious, but more or less adequate images for an individual, subjective mysticism, this latter interpretation probably finding its canonical expression in Schleiermacher and then pushed by fellows like Bultmann and Tillich. Those who actually know theology will recognize the faint Germanic cobwebs accrued around what was once the avant-garde. Alas, the destiny of every enfant terrible is to discover his bravery superseded by some new audacity in the realm of progressive ideology.

In any event, this tired model continues to be trotted out in works of both popular and scholarly quality. The media is frequently taken in, declaring with faux or genuine surprise that now, at last, the truth about Jesus has been uncovered. As Luke Timothy Johnson points out in his work, The Real Jesus, there is always something a little self-congratulatory and frankly egotistical in these current versions of the now rather creaky formula, for invariably the historical Jesus appears as a kind of idealized sixties hippie or a more enigmatic proto-Marxist revolutionary or whatever happens to be the particular image of ideological purity held by the theologian propounding the narrative. A work of meticulous scholarship with almost boring and repetitive detail, Lord Jesus Christ by Larry W. Hurtado, practically single-handedly explodes the unfounded pretensions driving this paradigm of nineteenth-century German historicism. There simply isn’t any long historical gap between the life and death of Jesus and the key liturgical expressions of Christian faith communities. Either they were radically deluded right from the start or something radical occurred regarding Jesus, so radical as to recreate basic Jewish convictions along unexpected, though not necessarily unprepared lines of thinking.

Now, I have to say that there are always going to be published works that because they are packaged nicely and have a blurb on the back cover from someone making portentous statements about the ground-breaking value of such a work will take a fair amount of people in. Yet they remain fraudulent. In my view, all those clever tomes purporting that Jesus never existed and that he is simply an amalgam of pagan legend and Jewish apocalyptic expectation fall into this category. It’s a kind of sophistical hucksterism that uses the arcana of scholarship – footnotes and selective quotations from primary texts and secondary works to give the feeling of solid investigation and logical reasoning, though in fact one is presented with a counterfeit whose degree of persuasiveness commanded will depend upon the skill of the counterfeiter.

Unquestionably, despite the basic agreement of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) and the deepening majesty of John’s mysticism, part of what makes for the unique image of Jesus Christ available through the New Testament is due to a kind of stereoscopic vision that derives from subtle differences in the portraiture. Each Gospel has a distinct audience in mind and then there is, for instance, Mark’s depiction of Christ who is given to enigmatic koans and frequently tells those he heals and who marvel at his words to keep quiet about it. This element does not show up in the other Gospels, but it undoubtedly contributes to the overall image. The question one must ponder is whether one is presented with narratives that are mutually exclusionary if taken each on its own terms or if one has a synthetic whole that transcends without substantive contradiction the particularity of each specific narrative Gospel. Ultimately, the early Church decided that the canonical Gospels were capable of such a synthetic presentation and that the various Gnostic gospels, for example, were deemed inauthentic because they involved substantive contradiction. (They are also uniformly late in the historical record and clearly reactive efforts against the `primitive Christian witness,’ though one must add that the New Testament texts themselves are informed by an apologetic against various incipient heresies. The debate about Christ surrounds him from the beginning.)

No matter what one makes of the preceding argument, compressed and limited as it is – or prolix and arrogant if you prefer – the truth of Christ will never be disclosed to a process of neutral observation and logical extension. One is free, naturally, to try such a procedure, but its result will be mainly nugatory. One can perhaps clear away some cant and efforts made in bad faith, but the truth of Jesus shall remain elusive. The figure of Virgil in Dante’s epic is meant to express the belief that reason’s final act is to transcend itself. As a believer in Christ, I try to bear witness – and I often do this poorly due to my own fallibility and weakness of character – but I do not make the mistake of thinking I can prove Christ. Jesus is comprehended under the rubric of rhetoric, not dialectic. The Gospel is proclaimed; it is a story of a Person of unique, unparalleled beauty to those who come to believe – I think any fair reception will discern this uniqueness, but there are legion that have not recognized such. There is a mystery to grace. One can fault a man for determining that two and two is five, perhaps. I prescind from judging the fellow who fails to see the convincing beauty of Christ for there are too many factors that come into play, too many false and bad Christians that muddy the picture. Jesus Christ will judge.

What I can do is invite anyone who thinks they have judged Christ and determined him merely an avatar of an ancient wisdom tradition or a clever fiction or, as Nietzsche thought, a continuing puzzle whose image was seized by those with cowardly souls in order to punish and subjugate the noble few to retreat to a space of questioning again; at least, to a place where they might hear anew a message that can only be heard through the insight of a more vital reason.

For anyone who finds this essay at all intriguing, I would like to recommend a few books and articles. Some only tangentially touch on the Person of Christ, but in sum they provide a context for the kind of visionary reason I applaud.

Unless You Become Like This Child – a short essay by Hans Urs von Balthasar.
Equality by Default – a brilliant book by Philippe Beneton.
Christ and Nothing, an article by David Bentley Hart, as well as his contribution to a symposium on theology as knowledge. Both can be located at the following website:
http://fireandrose.blogspot.com/2007/10/index-of-david-bentley-hart-articles-at.html.

shiva2999
December 4th, 2007, 10:50:10 PM
Either they were radically deluded right from the start or something radical occurred regarding Jesus, so radical as to recreate basic Jewish convictions along unexpected, though not necessarily unprepared lines of thinking.


Acts 9
1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.



Have you ever considered that nothing would please Satan more than perverting the message of the Son of God?

Dr. Who
December 5th, 2007, 9:35:12 AM
Indeed, it is sadly evident that Satan has often done so -- though I take it that for you this is a hypothetical exercise regarding two fictions. Do you wish to imply that Paul's Damascus road experience is a case of satanic deception? If not, it is not entirely clear what you mean it to be illustrative of; if so, you would have to elaborate more of an argument for your point to achieve any kind of convincing clarity. If you wish to imply that the entire edifice of orthodox Christian theology is a case of diabolic distortion, I would have to conclude it singularly odd that an omnipotent, benevolent God would allow the mission of the Son of God to fail so utterly.

Your question, of course, hypothetically and for the sake of argument presumes that there is an actual Son of God whose message is there to be distorted in the first place. It is on this basis that I argue for the virtual absurdity of believing that God would permit an absolutely crucial message to be corrupted to the point of fundamental misunderstanding. Aside from that, as I said, there is a `Christian aesthetic' associated with the image of Christ, the beauty of which I judge compelling. The goodness of the Lord is evident in the narrative witness and I think it would take a strongly dishonest interpretive bias to deny that there is a disarming, even unconventional quality in that goodness. Christ is distinctly far from the simpering, `beautiful soul' that Swinburne's pale Galilean evidently is.

Of course, if one wishes to persist in believing the Gospel an elaborate deception of malicious intent, there is nothing to stop you. It is admitted that satanic lies frequently appear attractive. As Plato warned, the art of the Sophist is dangerous not because he is a bad artist, but because there is technical mastery at the service of falsehood. Nonetheless, if one wishes to match Scripture for Scripture, Jesus does answer his adversaries who accused him of satanism when he cast out demons with the pithy observation that if Satan is divided against himself, his kingdom will not stand (Luke 11:14ff.)

shiva2999
December 5th, 2007, 1:17:51 PM
Of course, if one wishes to persist in believing the Gospel an elaborate deception of malicious intent, there is nothing to stop you. It is admitted that satanic lies frequently appear attractive. As Plato warned, the art of the Sophist is dangerous not because he is a bad artist, but because there is technical mastery at the service of falsehood. Nonetheless, if one wishes to match Scripture for Scripture, Jesus does answer his adversaries who accused him of satanism when he cast out demons with the pithy observation that if Satan is divided against himself, his kingdom will not stand (Luke 11:14ff.)

You misunderstand me.

I have never accused Jesus or the Gospels of satanic intent or influence.

What I am doing is asking you if indeed God is the father and Jesus is the Son of God and Satan is the embodiment of evil, is it possible that Saul of Tarses was the agent of Satan and the Holy Roman Church a satanic creation?

It seems entirely feasible to me.

And I don't think you want to use the line of reasoning that goes "I would have to conclude it singularly odd that an omnipotent, benevolent God would allow...", do you?

You do realize the can of worms that opens?

Dr. Who
December 5th, 2007, 6:21:19 PM
Ah, thank you for the clarification. To answer simply, I do not find the hypothesis that Paul's theology and the Roman Catholic Church are diabolic feasible, but then I wouldn't as I am Catholic. As Protestants tend to heavily emphasize certain Pauline epistles, you've put most of Western Christianity under the cloud of suspicion.

It's easy to make veiled or explicit accusations; rather time-consuming and complex to make adequate arguments to answer such . . . yes, I know that any assertion of an omnipotent, benevolent God brings up all those questions regarding evil and theodicy. While not eager to get into that quagmire of dispute, an orthodox Christian really cannot retreat from the ascription of goodness and omnipotence as divine attributes.

shiva2999
December 6th, 2007, 5:12:31 PM
Ah, thank you for the clarification.

Let me try and clarify further.

I found your lumping me with Christopher Hitchens, a man I have very little respect for, interesting to say the least.

Christopher Hitchens is a professional iconoclast, similar in his way to Ann Coulter. His attitude is a marketing tool.

I am an amateur, in the literal sense of the word. I do this for love.

I have always held Jesus of Nazareth in the highest regard and I would have to say over my years here that he is the man I have quoted most to try and prove my points.

And I would love to know, really KNOW that there is a loving God who cares for all his creatures and this life is not the end and that someday I will be able to be together again with all the people I have loved.

Who wouldn't?

But...I...just...don't...see...it.

What I DO see though, is the Western world's greatest philosopher using the ultimate metaphor to give us the key to eternal salvation.

Virtue is it's own reward.

Be a kind and decent and loving and brave human being and you are saved throughout ALL eternity.

Be like the centurion, and have faith in what Jesus' represents and like Jesus, you too will be a true son of God and you can claim the place he has prepared for you.

To answer simply, I do not find the hypothesis that Paul's theology and the Roman Catholic Church are diabolic feasible, but then I wouldn't as I am Catholic.

Why does your view of Jesus' message depend on a defense of Paul and the Catholic church?

Jesus certainly did not appoint Paul the 13th apostle, unless you believe Paul of course.

And Jesus certainly wasn't at the Council of Nicea, unless you believe the Holy Spirit was there to guide them.

As Protestants tend to heavily emphasize certain Pauline epistles, you've put most of Western Christianity under the cloud of suspicion.

I am not the first person to do so...

St. Paul then, it seems, preach’d another and quite different Gospel from what was preach’d by Peter and the other Apostles. (Thomas Morgan, The Moral Philosopher, 1737)

That manufacturer of quibbles, St. Paul… [wrote] a collection of letters under the name of epistles…. Out of the matters contained in those books… the church has set up a system of religion very contradictory to the character of the person whose name it bears. It has set up a religion of pomp and of revenue, in pretended imitation of a person whose life was humility and poverty. (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794)

Paul was the… first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. (Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William Short, 1820)

It rests with every professor of the religion of Jesus to settle with himself, to which of the two religions, that of Jesus or that of Paul, he will adhere. (Jeremy Bentham, Not Paul But Jesus, 1823)

What kind of authority can there be for an ‘Apostle’ who, unlike the other Apostles, had never been prepared for the Apostolic office in Jesus’ own school but had only later dared to claim the Apostolic office on the basis of his own authority?… The only question comes to be how the Apostle Paul appears in his Epistles to be so indifferent to the historical facts of the life of Jesus… He bears himself but little like a disciple who has received the doctrines and the principles which he preaches from the Master whose name he bears. (Ferdinand Baur, The Christ Party in the Corinthian Church, the Opposition between Petrine and Pauline Christianity in the Ancient Church, and the Apostle Peter in Rome, 1831)

In Christ the religious is completely present-tense; in Paul it is already on the way to becoming doctrine. One can imagine the rest!… This trend has been kept up for God knows how many centuries… When Jesus Christ lived, he was indeed the prototype. The task of faith is… to imitate Christ, become a disciple. Then Christ dies. Now, through the Apostle Paul, comes a basic alteration… He draws attention away from imitation and fixes it decisively upon the death of Christ the Atoner… What Luther failed to realize is that the true situation is that the Apostle has already degenerated by comparison with the Gospel… It becomes the disciple who decides what Christianity is, not the master, not Christ but Paul… [who] threw Christianity away completely, turning it upside down, getting it to be just the opposite of what it is in the [genuine] Christian proclamation. (Søren Kierkegaard, The Journals, 1849)

The story of one of the most ambitious and obtrusive of souls, of a head as superstitious as it was crafty, the story of the Apostle Paul— who knows this, except a few scholars? Without this strange story, however, without the confusions and storms of such a head, such a soul, there would be no Christianity. (Friedrich Nietzsche, The Dawn, 1881)

Paul… advised against sexual intercourse altogether. A great change from the divine view… If Christ were here now, there is one thing he would not be— a Christian. (Mark Twain, Letters from the Earth, 1909) & Notebook)

I draw a great distinction between the Sermon on the Mount and the Letters of Paul. They are a graft on Christ’s teaching, his own gloss apart from Christ’s own experience. (Mahatma Gandhi, Discussion on Fellowship, 1928)

As far as Paul is concerned, in the Apocalypse (Rev. 21:14) only the names of the twelve apostles are found on the foundations of the New Jerusalem— there is no room for Paul… For Justin (Martyr in the mid-second century), everything is based on the gospel tradition…. The name of Paul is nowhere mentioned by Justin… not only is his name lacking, but also any congruence with his epistles… If one may be allowed to speak rather pointedly, the apostle Paul was the only arch-heretic known to the apostolic age… We must look to the circle of the twelve apostles to find the guardians of the most primitive information about the life and preaching of the Lord… This treasure lies hidden in the synoptic gospels. (Walter Bauer, Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity, 1934)

Tobacco… is not prohibited in the Scriptures, though, as Samuel Butler pointed out, St. Paul would no doubt have denounced it if he had known of it. (Bertrand Russell, An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish, 1943)

Paul created a theology of which none but the vaguest warrants can be found in the words of Christ… Through these interpretations Paul could neglect the actual life and sayings of Jesus, which he had not directly known… He had replaced conduct with creed as the test of virtue. It was a tragic change. (Will Durant, Caesar and Christ, 1944)

Paul: he’s in the Bible too. He is the fellow who theologized Christ almost out of Christianity. Look out for him. (Robert Frost, A Masque of Mercy, 1947)

What did the historical Jesus teach in comparison with what the historical Paul taught?… Jesus taught that to escape judgment a person must keep the central teachings of the Jewish Law as he, Jesus himself, interpreted them. Paul, interestingly enough, never mentions Jesus’ interpretation of the [Mosaic] Law, and Paul was quite insistent that keeping the Law would never bring Salvation. The only way to be saved, for Paul, was to trust Jesus’ death and resurrection… Paul transformed the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus. (Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 1993)

It's easy to make veiled or explicit accusations; rather time-consuming and complex to make adequate arguments to answer such . . . yes, I know that any assertion of an omnipotent, benevolent God brings up all those questions regarding evil and theodicy. While not eager to get into that quagmire of dispute, an orthodox Christian really cannot retreat from the ascription of goodness and omnipotence as divine attributes.

What purpose does orthodoxy serve?

Dr. Who
December 6th, 2007, 6:36:54 PM
I certainly meant no insult regarding Christopher Hitchens. Surely you are a different person, though I had discerned a certain quality of the provocateur. I rather like this quality if it is good humored. In any event, I did not wish to imply any significant likeness and beg pardon if you took it as an attack on your character.

As your nice anthology of quotations reveals, many people have found St. Paul uncongenial over the years. I shall try to make some sort of answer to your questions and points when I have a bit more leisure.

shiva2999
December 6th, 2007, 7:00:45 PM
I certainly meant no insult regarding Christopher Hitchens. Surely you are a different person, though I had discerned a certain quality of the provocateur. I rather like this quality if it is good humored. In any event, I did not wish to imply any significant likeness and beg pardon if you took it as an attack on your character.

As your nice anthology of quotations reveals, many people have found St. Paul uncongenial over the years. I shall try to make some sort of answer to your questions and points when I have a bit more leisure.

No insult taken.

I am not a provocateur to try and injure or humiliate, but to learn and hopefully, teach.

And my research and learning, paltry as it is, leads me to view Jesus as one of the world's great heros and Paul as one of the world's great villains.

Have you never found it curious that after his detention in Rome, Paul essentially disappears into a fog of myth and conjecture?

matthew94
December 10th, 2007, 1:06:10 AM
Have you never found it curious that after his detention in Rome, Paul essentially disappears into a fog of myth and conjecture?

Hey Shiva. As far as I can tell, the fate of all the remaining NT characters become a fog at that point. The traditions from AD65 and later are far less substantiated that Luke's 'Acts' and, in fact, differ from one another.

shiva2999
December 10th, 2007, 1:17:45 PM
Hey Shiva. As far as I can tell, the fate of all the remaining NT characters become a fog at that point. The traditions from AD65 and later are far less substantiated that Luke's 'Acts' and, in fact, differ from one another.

Indeed.

That still doesn't mean that the reported circumstances of Paul's demise are as verifiable as "Kenny-boy" Lays'.

matthew94
December 10th, 2007, 1:56:28 PM
It doesn't really matter to me how Paul's life ended. If such was of necessity to know, I'm sure it would have been included in the Canon of Scripture. What matters is Paul's teaching and whether it is a theology of the teaching of Jesus Christ (as I believe) or a radical distortion of the teachings of Christ (as you seem to believe). I think the best recent work on the theologies of Jesus & Paul is provided by the Anglican Bishop N.T. Wright who has come to the conclusion that the contemporary evangelical interpretation of Paul is not quite right. I think your problems with Paul are mostly, though surely not all, eradicated in Wright's interpretation of Paul.

shiva2999
December 10th, 2007, 3:40:56 PM
It doesn't really matter to me how Paul's life ended. If such was of necessity to know, I'm sure it would have been included in the Canon of Scripture.

Huh?

It wouldn't matter to you if Paul spent the rest of his days a wealthy man secure in the appreciation of his Roman masters for a job well done?

matthew94
December 10th, 2007, 5:25:51 PM
Huh?

It wouldn't matter to you if Paul spent the rest of his days a wealthy man secure in the appreciation of his Roman masters for a job well done?

None of the reasonable possibilities for the end of his life make a difference to me. I consider it reasonable to believe he was found to be a thread and sentenced to death, but I think that's very unlikely. I find it reasonable that he was released and later travelled to Spain or Britain, but I find that isn't very well supported in history. I find it reasonable that he was released, did a bit more evangelism, and then was later martyred. This latter view seems to be the most reasonable and historically supported.

A conspiracy theory placing him as a secret agent for the Romans aiming to screw up the message of Jesus has no historical basis. Such a surprising ending would have almost certainly made it's way into Luke's history, or that of Josephus, or Eusebius. Beyond that, the early church would have certainly abandoned Paul's letters once they got word of his allegiance with Rome.

Basic principle of doing history. If someones last years fade into the background, that usually means they weren't very surprising. He almost certainly finished his years doing exactly what he had been doing for the previous 30.

TigerJ
December 10th, 2007, 9:31:53 PM
Acts 9
1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.



Have you ever considered that nothing would please Satan more than perverting the message of the Son of God?

If God does not exist, then Satan does not exist. Were this the case, then either Jesus is deluded or the gospels have been perverted from the original account of a great ethical teacher. If God and Satan both exist, my faith assumption is that God is greater than Satan, and if the true gospel is important to God, God is perfectly capable of keeping the essential truth intact. Simply put, God would not allow Paul to corrupt the true gospel. It seems odd to me that you would invoke the Satan argument as an atheist. For me, as a Christian, it doesn't work, because my God is greater.

Dr. Who
December 11th, 2007, 2:51:38 PM
Hey, Shiva, I apologize that I have been unable to respond with alacrity. I wonder if you quite recognize how much is required to properly respond to a simple little question such as `why orthodoxy’? Well, it cannot really be done with concision so I must content myself to respond with the following mélange of sorts.

The modern educated person – and your learning I suspect is not paltry, just typically slanted along certain lines – almost invariably assumes certain truths that ought really to be debatable. In so far as one is `modern’ – we are all to some degree modern simply by being born into a Western, technological society – one is apt to have little capacity to reflect philosophically about being. `What the hell is being?’ is a typical response here. So far as one does reflect, one is likely to think largely in terms of method and critique; in short, one won’t start with being, but epistemology. What is true, that which I grant reality to is that which I can empirically verify or what experts prove. The consequence of this is that one almost always begins with a kind of superior stance over against being; being is suffered as a suppliant hoping to be granted the status of the real. Here, the modern person sits as a judge who may provisionally suspend belief long enough for the claims of being to be put through the correct tests and experiments for analysis, yet one never approaches experience with the innocent wonder one associates with childhood; nor is being allowed the capacity to contain depths that one can perhaps attune oneself to at the cost of renouncing the mastery of method. Mystery is not a positive quality of being but a temporary gap in our knowledge.

Of course, whether one is modern or not, one must responsibly attempt to separate the true from the false. Yet there is a sharp difference in attitude between a pre-modern consciousness and those who place great faith in the rigors of science and reason construed in keeping with an ideology that withholds truth status to anything that does not fall under the purview of the favored methods, etc. All this I have adverted to in my original posting. I have reiterated myself because it is necessary when considering religious truth to determine if it is the kind of truth that is likely to be adequately grasped in the same manner in which one may figure out the structure of DNA or deduce whether there is any similarity between the brain states of someone in a mystical trance and someone undergoing an epileptic fit.

I think one can err in two opposed directions. One can presume such a radical separation between a supposed divine revelation and any conceivable earthly context that one renders the whole notion of a revelation or of grace or of the supernatural a purely negative concept – there might be such, but one could not articulate anything meaningful about it. Silence would be the only and proper advertence to a transcendence that man can hardly meaningfully encounter. As Louis Dupré points out in his insightful collection of essays, Religious Mystery and Rational Reflection, `Revelation itself cannot be rendered intelligible unless it still proves capable of being assumed within the established patterns of speaking and thinking. However sublime and unique a message may be, in order to be expressed, it must adopt an existing language and thereby integrate itself within a praxis of discourse’ (29).

I conclude that if one supposes that the traditional Christian understanding of Jesus is true, one should expect that the capacity to articulate such an overwhelming revelation would necessarily require a capacity in various surrounding traditions (philosophical, artistic, religious) to be adapted more or less adequately in order to convey that truth. The transmission of the gospel should thus have a historical record; in principle, one ought to be able to trace out the development of different strategies designed to express and in some cases clarify the unique disclosure involved in the Person of Christ. The ability to discern historical and communal contexts in which a divine revelation is disclosed does not intrinsically deny the claim that the revelation is divine simply because one can refer to a sociological record. This blithe historicism exemplifies the second error, dissolving any possible revelation into mere anthropological projection. It is important to note this because it is easy to preclude openness to the possibility of a divine revelation by assuming that one has explained it along completely immanent lines when one has discovered the worldly context in which various beliefs were first espoused and disseminated.

The question about Paul has to be tackled from this perspective. To consider Jesus Christ a great historical hero of some kind and Paul one of the world’s great villains, one must decide both that the teaching of Jesus is in some sense superlative and worthy and that Paul successfully obscured that teaching by replacing it with a fraudulent and indeed wicked counterfeit. Now, one may greatly dislike the Catholic Church or most every established Christian denomination. One may talk of the Crusades, the Inquisition, birth control, any of a myriad of moral proscriptions made by the magisterium that one finds objectionable: it doesn’t touch the matter of whether Paul gravely corrupted the message of Christ. It may be that he did. It may be that he did not. If the latter is true and if one is correct in seeing an inner connection between Pauline teaching and Christian institutions, one will either have to drop Christ as a hero or consider that perhaps Paul is not a villain.

Fairly recently, A. N. Wilson wrote a book about Paul. I haven’t read it, but I note that he continues the tradition of seeing Paul as the founder of the religion of Christianity, something Wilson now finds opprobrious I take it, and therefore freeing Christ of any responsibility for what his horrid little followers have made of his message of supposed tolerance and love. Well, honestly . . . I don’t buy it. I’m going to throw a longish quote out now by Larry W. Hurtado. By the nature of this kind of communication, it must be somewhat out of context, but you’ll take the point I hope:

`To be sure, arguments from silence have to be treated critically. Silences are significant only where we have reason to expect something else, and I submit that in these cases we have very good reason to expect Paul to have responded to any serious challenges to the Christ-devotion he advocated in his churches. The lack of any response can only mean that there were no challenges to the exalted status of Jesus asserted in Paul’s gospel or to the devotional practices by which Jesus was reverenced in Paul’s churches. We can hardly think that those who presented themselves in Corinth as emissaries of Jerusalem, were shaped by the Jewish tradition of exclusivist monotheism, and also had no hesitation about questioning quite directly Paul’s authority would have been reluctant to object to cultic reverence of Jesus if they judged it inappropriate. . . . I emphasize this because it does not fit with the assertions that Pauline Christianity represented some major departure in belief and practice from Jewish Christian circles in Judea. . . . There obviously were differences in beliefs between Paul and some other Jewish Christians about such things as Torah observance and even his apostolic legitimacy. But I submit that we have no basis in Paul’s letters for thinking that these differences extended to major points about Christ-devotion’ (Lord Jesus Christ, 167).

The essentials of what is considered the high Christology of traditional Christianity, its context involving the salvific death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all that comes under the category of non-controversial. There is no evidence that Paul was an innovator here.

I am now brought to the matter of orthodoxy. Why orthodoxy? If one concludes that orthodoxy is just one among any number of ideologies, then one must rightly suspect the claims of orthodoxy. All those recent televised specials regarding Gnostic gospels, the engine for Brown’s DaVinci Code and the numerous derivative works spawned by his success are alike in the assumption that one is presented with different stories in which there are no veridical differences. Each is alike a fiction, though the reader/audience is invited to dislike the consequences of the historical victory of orthodoxy over its heretical rivals. The claim of Christian orthodoxy to be the protector and transmitter of a precious, indeed, superlatively vital truth is unmasked as nothing more than the clever disguise of power. And of course, as everyone knows, the victors write the history books – and who can gainsay that, as today the forces of progressive ideology are busily rewriting textbooks to show, for instance, that Christopher Columbus is first and foremost the perpetrator of genocide?

And yet there is nothing to decisively compel one to accept the new account over the older, traditional understanding. Advocates for Gnostic gospels, if one probes intelligently, almost always turn out to be nihilists, i.e., they do not believe there is any metaphysical basis for truth. All quests for meaning are personal, private, ultimately ungrounded. The best a liberal society can do is to try and liberate everyone to pursue their own private dream world and to do so in such a way that violence is constrained as much as possible. Here, meaning cannot but be an ideology, but what if one does not admit the fundamental presuppositions that make this particular story plausible? The self-understanding of Christianity is not that it is one ideology among others, wrongly arrogating pre-eminence to itself. Orthodoxy is then not one style of putative truth among others, not a pernicious and fascist attempt to destroy individual liberty, but the traditions that rightly convey the truth of a divine revelation.

I say traditions because Christian theology has many strands, many influences. St. Augustine was the greatest early Latin father, but one cannot rely only upon Augustine. Gregory of Nyssa or Maximus the Confessor in the East are rich sources of important theological reflection, for example, and all exist as a witness that more or less adequately addresses a Mystery that irreducibly resists systematic closure. In this respect, Paul has a privileged place due to his inclusion in the canon of New Testament writings, but he is not alone responsible for Christian theology. Moreover, one is free to find his character irascible and difficult. One is not free to dismiss his theology without discarding also the same judgment that found the canonical Gospels truthful witnesses to the person and message of Christ.

Here, one frequently comes to the crux of disagreement. Why should the non-believer accept the pronouncements of a community of believers and why this community rather than that? And, of course, there is no answer to it that will satisfy the non-believer. To speak of the Holy Spirit will not convince the person who thinks the Holy Spirit is moonshine. Besides, how does one adjudicate between all the competing claims of divine inspiration? This brings in more questions than even this lengthy response can even poorly address. What I can say is that rational discourse is always a participatory and communal act. The scientist does not simply read a book on particle physics or ornithology. He engages in actions and assimilates a manner of speaking and thinking that is coherent within the community of working scientists. The same goes for a poet or a cook. Proficiency and then mastery engages a work that has both a history and a language and rules of excellence proper to it. Tradition is the name for the coherence that can be found in a work whose integrity is witnessed by generations of practice. While I am not sure about all of his conclusions, Alasdair MacIntyre has written well upon the way in which traditions nurture inquiry and also on how various notions of rationality are accommodated and modified within a tradition.

All facts are understood within an interpretation. Even what qualifies as a fact is measured by interpretation. Thus, it is not a demerit against traditional Christianity that it offers its facts within an interpretive mode. Orthodoxy is that Christian tradition that attempts to justly and beautifully proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ. By the nature of the case, one will always be able to refuse the interpretation and thus dispute the facts, but there is nothing inherent in the truth that it should be easily discovered or universally available. I have tried to say this in my original notes, but Dupré is worth some attention on this point:

For the religious believer, the ontological discourse occurs entirely within the language of revelation. In the Christian revelation, God’s Word provides, with its own disclosure, the conditions for the internal justification of its truth. . . . But this is not the case for the non-believer. Religious discourse, then, does not appear to possess the kind of impartial, universally accessible quality which philosophy demands in truth. It requires an involved participation, a personal commitment rather than detached intellectual insights. . . . But can `truth’ that cannot justify itself on a universal basis still be considered philosophically justifiable? Before answering this question negatively, we should realize that aesthetic experience falls under the same restrictions. Only a person actually acquainted with such an experience qualifies for passing philosophical judgment on it. Rather than claiming that there is no truth in the disclosure of art and religion, one should conclude that the truth of disclosure, aesthetic or religious, intrinsically differs from scientific or historical truth, even though it may share some rules (36 – 37).

I’m sorry if this comes across as too academic. I have great respect and appreciation for the amateur. In truth, we are all amateurs in life and the best usually know this.

shiva2999
December 14th, 2007, 11:11:53 AM
Matthew, Tiger and Dr Who.

Thank you for your considered responses.

I will get back to this as soon as I have a little time.