Police State at School

[comericatigers]

School cameras are being fed live to cops

http://wcbstv.com/technology/surveillance.demarest.cameras.2.565939.html
__________________________________________________ ________________________

Excellent Idea or Too Much Big Brother?

I say great idea. Schools should be safe and a safe environment will help produce learning. Considering students run schools and teachers and administrators are virtually powerless, having police cameras with a live feed will put more responsibility on law enforcement and hopefully backup teachers and administrators.

I am sure the lawyers who have ruined education are salivating at taking the cameras to court because they infringe on students rights. Bullshit.

[Shamrock1989]

It's a good idea. Schools should be safe. Keep the crazies out.

[Green Lantern]

It's a good idea. Schools should be safe. Keep the crazies out.

Get real. How will the kids learn without teachers?

[comericatigers]

Get real. How will the kids learn without teachers?

lol. good one.

[nehemiah]

do you think it's a coincidence that the tighter you make a "police state"... the more people rebel?

[comericatigers]

do you think it's a coincidence that the tighter you make a "police state"... the more people rebel?

No. Not when you are dealing with 14-17 yr olds in a public school.

[FamousAmos]

Damn this is why i don't teach high school. too weird

[35Pete]

So shortsighted and completely stupid comments by a few.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/35Pete/bell_curve.jpg

[nehemiah]

:rofl:

pete skillz to pay the billz!

:rockon:

[ckg68]

No. Not when you are dealing with 14-17 yr olds in a public school.

Well,let me ask you this.

What if some cops,who have this live feed piped in to their command post(or whatever you want to call the location where the feeds are),don't use it for their intended purpose but instead decide to use it for some unsavory reasons(i.e. to get their rocks off peeping at what's going on in,say,the girls' bathroom or locker room)? (Don't laugh-there have been cases where people have been disciplined for using cameras in entirely different ways from what they were intended to be used for.)

Instead of "keeping the kids safe",you now have their privacy threatened. All because you need to act like a voyeur.

[TRIPLE P]

There are security cameras everywhere.

[35Pete]

Well,let me ask you this.

What if some cops,who have this live feed piped in to their command post(or whatever you want to call the location where the feeds are),don't use it for their intended purpose but instead decide to use it for some unsavory reasons(i.e. to get their rocks off peeping at what's going on in,say,the girls' bathroom or locker room)? (Don't laugh-there have been cases where people have been disciplined for using cameras in entirely different ways from what they were intended to be used for.)

Instead of "keeping the kids safe",you now have their privacy threatened. All because you need to act like a voyeur.

People get so myopic and focus on the "problem" that they are completely oblivious to the fact that the cure is much much worse than the disease.

[Green Lantern]

People get so myopic and focus on the "problem" that they are completely oblivious to the fact that the cure is much much worse than the disease.

That is what I keep trying to explain to you with regard to Libertarianism...

[35Pete]

That is what I keep trying to explain to you with regard to Libertarianism...

I think that you have it backwards. Completely backwards.

[Green Lantern]

I think that you have it backwards. Completely backwards.

LOL. I know you do, I know.

I am part Calabrese though. We are the "testa dura", the "hard-headed", people of Italy...which puts us in the running for hard-headed of the world.

[35Pete]

LOL. I know you do, I know.

I am part Calabrese though. We are the "testa dura", the "hard-headed", people of Italy...which puts us in the running for hard-headed of the world.

I am not a purist libertarian type. I support the 50 laboratories approach. The decentralization of power and the ability for one to walk across state lines when the bull shit gets too thick.

[Green Lantern]

I am not a purist libertarian type. I support the 50 laboratories approach. The decentralization of power and the ability for one to walk across state lines when the bull shit gets too thick.

We have this now and anEin lives in the fascist state of Virginia, Uppy will not move from Communist Mass.

What's up with that?

[Soviet_Canuckastani]

It's a good idea. Schools should be safe. Keep the crazies out.

Problem is a tool that's used against crazies, will also be implemented to BECOME crazy, i.e. you'll probably see some 10 year old kid get charged with assault over giving some poindexter a wedgie etc.

[C Darwin]

Keep the crazies out by keeping the crazies out. sometimes you need to "leave children behind".

[sukie]

There are a few here that want the cameras removed from school buses I guess.

[comericatigers]

Well,let me ask you this.

What if some cops,who have this live feed piped in to their command post(or whatever you want to call the location where the feeds are),don't use it for their intended purpose but instead decide to use it for some unsavory reasons(i.e. to get their rocks off peeping at what's going on in,say,the girls' bathroom or locker room)? (Don't laugh-there have been cases where people have been disciplined for using cameras in entirely different ways from what they were intended to be used for.)

Instead of "keeping the kids safe",you now have their privacy threatened. All because you need to act like a voyeur.

And what if some guy is walking around with an arsenal in his coat?

There are no cameras in the bathroom or locker room--nobody is getting their rocks off by watching in their. I can't guarantee police behavior, but it is still a great idea.

[coryjd]

Well,let me ask you this.

What if some cops,who have this live feed piped in to their command post(or whatever you want to call the location where the feeds are),don't use it for their intended purpose but instead decide to use it for some unsavory reasons(i.e. to get their rocks off peeping at what's going on in,say,the girls' bathroom or locker room)? (Don't laugh-there have been cases where people have been disciplined for using cameras in entirely different ways from what they were intended to be used for.)

Instead of "keeping the kids safe",you now have their privacy threatened. All because you need to act like a voyeur.

You're worried about threatening the privacy of kids? Let me tell you this, that once a kid enters the doors of a public school, their privacy should go out the window. Their actions and only their actions have led us to this situation that we are in. And because of no cameras in the bathroom or locker rooms, those have now become safe-havens for these kids to smoke, drink, fight and do whatever else they want. As a teacher, I strongly encourage cameras, police presence, and whatever else it takes to keep everyone safe. Kids have lost sight of the fact that we are in school to learn, and that is it. Socializing and freedom is a privilege, and if you abuse it, you lose it.

[г]

If his arsenal is in his coat, he should see a doctor to have it lowered.

[ckg68]

You're worried about threatening the privacy of kids? Let me tell you this, that once a kid enters the doors of a public school, their privacy should go out the window. Their actions and only their actions have led us to this situation that we are in. And because of no cameras in the bathroom or locker rooms, those have now become safe-havens for these kids to smoke, drink, fight and do whatever else they want. As a teacher, I strongly encourage cameras, police presence, and whatever else it takes to keep everyone safe. Kids have lost sight of the fact that we are in school to learn, and that is it. Socializing and freedom is a privilege, and if you abuse it, you lose it.

Cory: Again,what if the cameras are being used not for their intended purpose-not to keep kids safe,but so that the person watching them decide to use it to peep in on something he shouldn't be doing?

As far as all the actions you've mentioned....uh,firing up death sticks,swilling booze and throwing punches has been going on in schools since time immemorial,but just NOW we're getting our hackles raised?

And don't go getting high and mighty on "their actions" leading us to this place. Isn't it,in part,the failure of schools to notice students who are troubled-and decide to use schools as shooting galleries-part of the reason we're in the "situation we are in?"

[coryjd]

Cory: Again,what if the cameras are being used not for their intended purpose-not to keep kids safe,but so that the person watching them decide to use it to peep in on something he shouldn't be doing?

As far as all the actions you've mentioned....uh,firing up death sticks,swilling booze and throwing punches has been going on in schools since time immemorial,but just NOW we're getting our hackles raised?

And don't go getting high and mighty on "their actions" leading us to this place. Isn't it,in part,the failure of schools to notice students who are troubled-and decide to use schools as shooting galleries-part of the reason we're in the "situation we are in?"

But it is the kids actions for placing those cameras there in the first place. So, if a cop is viewing those videos, then a kid's action has given them the right to look at them.

Schools are not institutes for checking mental breakdown. They are public education institutes, and your comment shows how schools have been FORCED to change and become babysitters and rent-a-parents. It should NOT be a schools job to detect a mental breakdown, rather it should be the parents. However, our society has forced us to change, tax dollars are being wasted on school psychologists (free to students), and money is being taken away from what matters - education. The larger issue here is parenting, and if parenting had not gone down the tube, then we wouldn't be sitting here having this convo. Teens have decided to use schools as shooting galleries, because today's teens are weenies. You say one negative thing to them (or constructive criticism) and they go crying home to their piss-poor parents. Gone are the days of the kids governing themselves, when bullies use to keep kids in line, and schools were safe. Here are the days of lawsuits, pussy kids who resort to guns because they don't have a back-bone or self confidence because they spend their days in front of video games and TV, and defenseless and powerless administrators because of all those shitty parents.

[35Pete]

But it is the kids actions for placing those cameras there in the first place. So, if a cop is viewing those videos, then a kid's action has given them the right to look at them.

Schools are not institutes for checking mental breakdown. They are public education institutes, and your comment shows how schools have been FORCED to change and become babysitters and rent-a-parents. It should NOT be a schools job to detect a mental breakdown, rather it should be the parents. However, our society has forced us to change, tax dollars are being wasted on school psychologists (free to students), and money is being taken away from what matters - education. The larger issue here is parenting, and if parenting had not gone down the tube, then we wouldn't be sitting here having this convo. Teens have decided to use schools as shooting galleries, because today's teens are weenies. You say one negative thing to them (or constructive criticism) and they go crying home to their piss-poor parents. Gone are the days of the kids governing themselves, when bullies use to keep kids in line, and schools were safe. Here are the days of lawsuits, pussy kids who resort to guns because they don't have a back-bone or self confidence because they spend their days in front of video games and TV, and defenseless and powerless administrators because of all those shitty parents.

You're thoughts are a wee bit to the left of the arrow.

Come on. Think for God's sake.

[sukie]

There are a few here that want the cameras removed from school buses I guess.

Again...School bus videos? Anyone care to comment?

[coryjd]

You're thoughts are a wee bit to the left of the arrow.

Come on. Think for God's sake.

I don't think so at all. But to each their own.

[coryjd]

Again...School bus videos? Anyone care to comment?

School bus videos are a plus!

[sukie]

But the rights of the kids are violated!!!

[Green Lantern]

If you are not afraid of disappointing your parents, nothing else matters.

[gilchristfan]

You're worried about threatening the privacy of kids? Let me tell you this, that once a kid enters the doors of a public school, their privacy should go out the window. Their actions and only their actions have led us to this situation that we are in. And because of no cameras in the bathroom or locker rooms, those have now become safe-havens for these kids to smoke, drink, fight and do whatever else they want. As a teacher, I strongly encourage cameras, police presence, and whatever else it takes to keep everyone safe. Kids have lost sight of the fact that we are in school to learn, and that is it. Socializing and freedom is a privilege, and if you abuse it, you lose it.

Teachers can be the greatest Nazis.

[gilchristfan]

But it is the kids actions for placing those cameras there in the first place. So, if a cop is viewing those videos, then a kid's action has given them the right to look at them.

Schools are not institutes for checking mental breakdown. They are public education institutes, and your comment shows how schools have been FORCED to change and become babysitters and rent-a-parents. It should NOT be a schools job to detect a mental breakdown, rather it should be the parents. However, our society has forced us to change, tax dollars are being wasted on school psychologists (free to students), and money is being taken away from what matters - education. The larger issue here is parenting, and if parenting had not gone down the tube, then we wouldn't be sitting here having this convo. Teens have decided to use schools as shooting galleries, because today's teens are weenies. You say one negative thing to them (or constructive criticism) and they go crying home to their piss-poor parents. Gone are the days of the kids governing themselves, when bullies use to keep kids in line, and schools were safe. Here are the days of lawsuits, pussy kids who resort to guns because they don't have a back-bone or self confidence because they spend their days in front of video games and TV, and defenseless and powerless administrators because of all those shitty parents.

That was even better than the last post.

Bullies to keep kids in line? Defenseless and powerless administrators?

Your students must love you.

[coryjd]

But the rights of the kids are violated!!!

Since when?

[coryjd]

That was even better than the last post.

Bullies to keep kids in line? Defenseless and powerless administrators?

Your students must love you.

Until the day comes that you step foot in a public school and live the life of a teacher or administrator, you have no right or reason to judge or criticize.

I'm not at school for my kids to love me. I'm there to educate them and make them productive citizens, with morals and values.

[Green Lantern]

Until the day comes that you step foot in a public school and live the life of a teacher or administrator, you have no right or reason to judge or criticize.
I'm not at school for my kids to love me. I'm there to educate them and make them productive citizens, with morals and values.

From where does this logic come?

[coryjd]

From where does this logic come?

Simple. I don't judge what I haven't seen or experienced, why should anyone else?

[Green Lantern]

Simple. I don't judge what I haven't seen or experienced, why should anyone else?

Emotional detachment, maybe.

[sukie]

what does the ACLU have to say?

[gilchristfan]

Until the day comes that you step foot in a public school and live the life of a teacher or administrator, you have no right or reason to judge or criticize.

LOL. "and you shut up too, parents (guardians, taxpayers,...concerned citizens)."



I'm not at school for my kids to love me. I'm there to educate them and make them productive citizens, with morals and values.

You have so much to learn from Sidney:

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[coryjd]

LOL. "and you shut up too, parents (guardians, taxpayers,...concerned citizens)."




You have so much to learn from Sidney:

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Go ahead, keep giving me examples....until you name a teacher or administrator, you don't phase me. And taxpayers...hahaha - that's a good one.

Woohoo - you give me an example from a movie! Hey fella, life ain't the movies. Some of my best teachers were the ones I hated, it just took me a few years to realize that. That's the sign of a good teacher.

[comericatigers]

Teachers can be the greatest Nazis.

Or the greatest left wing nut jobs on the planet. Ever take a class in college or even high school for that matter when you were basically told that you are a bad person for being white?--I have on several occasions. Teachers bring way too much of their own personal opinion into the classroom.

Again...School bus videos? Anyone care to comment?

Absolutely. Love them.

That was even better than the last post.

Bullies to keep kids in line? Defenseless and powerless administrators?

Your students must love you.

I don't know about bullies to keep kids in line, but administrators are powerless. Administrators are so afraid of frivolous lawsuits they buckle all the time. Districts would go broke trying to fight them so they settle. When word gets out about the settlement (aka easy money) more frivolous lawsuits come up. Put the cameras in place and have the live feed, administrators are not the law, they are pawns.

[coryjd]

Think back to when we all were in school (those of us 25 or above). Bullies were like the rogue agents of the schools. NO ONE crossed a bully, and they kept kids in line. They made the life of an administrator easy. Think about it, if you were some punk 7th grade kid, all it took was a threat or a whooping from an upper classmen to straighten you out and shut you up. That's a fact!

[Green Lantern]

Think back to when we all were in school (those of us 25 or above). Bullies were like the rogue agents of the schools. NO ONE crossed a bully, and they kept kids in line. They made the life of an administrator easy. Think about it, if you were some punk 7th grade kid, all it took was a threat or a whooping from an upper classmen to straighten you out and shut you up. That's a fact!

I think you make yourself look ridiculous.

[coryjd]

I think you make yourself look ridiculous.

I think you know it's the truth, you just hate to admit it.

[Green Lantern]

I think you know it's the truth, you just hate to admit it.

I do not remember school bullies keeping people in line. Parents did that.

[comericatigers]

I do not remember school bullies keeping people in line. Parents did that.

And we need that more than ever today. Parents need to step up in a big way.

[gilchristfan]

Go ahead, keep giving me examples....until you name a teacher or administrator, you don't phase me. And taxpayers...hahaha - that's a good one.

What exactly does that mean. You're not being clear. But then...I suspect you hear that alot.

until I name a teacher or administrator? OK, The principal at my boys' school is a Milf. She kinda looks like 90's direct-to-video erotica queen Monique Parent.

http://www.hard-to-find-actresses.com/content/pics/mon001.jpg

But I digress...

So to your point, .I know dozens of teachers, and more than a few administrators, and I haven't seen anyone advocate using bullies as a means of "keeping kids in line". Even the tyrannical ones. (until I read a later post of yours, I though you were actually joking).

The best ones I known, and have known, always had a certain modicum of respect for their students, and at the same time demanded the same.



Woohoo - you give me an example from a movie! Hey fella, life ain't the movies. Some of my best teachers were the ones I hated, it just took me a few years to realize that. That's the sign of a good teacher.

You should watch it some time...it really sounds like you could use it.

[gilchristfan]

Think back to when we all were in school (those of us 25 or above). Bullies were like the rogue agents of the schools. NO ONE crossed a bully, and they kept kids in line. They made the life of an administrator easy. Think about it, if you were some punk 7th grade kid, all it took was a threat or a whooping from an upper classmen to straighten you out and shut you up. That's a fact!

Kinda sound like the type of guy that likes a good fight..as long as its between 2 other guys.

Do you talk like that in front of your administrators? If its a good administrator, they'd have you in for a psych eval pronto

[gilchristfan]

Or the greatest left wing nut jobs on the planet. Ever take a class in college or even high school for that matter when you were basically told that you are a bad person for being white?--I have on several occasions. Teachers bring way too much of their own personal opinion into the classroom.

No, I really haven't.. Seriously. But sure, I've had some zealots on both sides of the aisle, even at UB, believe it or not.







I don't know about bullies to keep kids in line, but administrators are powerless. Administrators are so afraid of frivolous lawsuits they buckle all the time. Districts would go broke trying to fight them so they settle. When word gets out about the settlement (aka easy money) more frivolous lawsuits come up. Put the cameras in place and have the live feed, administrators are not the law, they are pawns.

I'm not so sure... really.

I've had a few school discipline cases, and a few Title IX cases.

In school discipline situations, the due process afforded students is pretty minimal.

Though a student does have some due process rights (Goss v. Lopez), its not nearly that afforded an accused in a criminal case. (Bethel v. Frasier).

The scope of school discipline rules is really very broad. Though some schools have a more detailed conduct code, what it comes down to is that a school can suspend or expel a student for any conduct that "causes a substantial disruption of the educational process" And by the "substantial disruption" of the educational process they mean...not very much.

In terms of a hearing...well..again, it doesn't have to be much of one. Alot of schools will go through some formalities, and lots of forms, but really all that's required to satisfy the the courts is that the student be told why they are being disciplined and an opportunity to tell their side of the story.


Schools almost always win. When you consider how many tens of millions of students go through the educational system, the number of lawsuits is really pretty low.

Schools have a lot more power than people give them credit for.

When I'm researching for a school case, you know what outnumbers students suing a school district? Teachers suing a school district to either keep their job or get their job back. From the cases I've seen, its by about a 10-1 ratio, at minimum.

Title IX can be a source of litigation, but often that comes down to one thing...get a good anti-sexual discrimination policy in place and follow it.

If you're talking about something like IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act), you're talking about a different animal. These are special needs kids, where the school gets special needs funding. Even in those cases, a school can create more of their own problems then they're worth.

I've got one going on right now where the school is really starting to be a little annoying. No one is seeking millions of dollars, we're mostly seeking that the school
provide the kid a little individualized instruction, as was recommended in the IEP written by the school

But they'd rather have meetings. In one meeting, about a month ago, had the school attorney, an assistant superintendent, 3 principals, the director of special education, the director of secondary education, school psychologist, director of security (and the kid isn't even a behavioral problem).

It went on for hours. It was kind of fun, I almost came to blows with the director of special ed., I could have killed her in a fight.

But what I really thought about was the amount of man hours, at administrative salary, that was wasted as they went through their formalities. It could have probably paid for 6 months to a year of private tutoring for the kid.

[coryjd]

No, I really haven't.. Seriously. But sure, I've had some zealots on both sides of the aisle, even at UB, believe it or not.








I'm not so sure... really.

I've had a few school discipline cases, and a few Title IX cases.

In school discipline situations, the due process afforded students is pretty minimal.

Though a student does have some due process rights (Goss v. Lopez), its not nearly that afforded an accused in a criminal case. (Bethel v. Frasier).

The scope of school discipline rules is really very broad. Though some schools have a more detailed conduct code, what it comes down to is that a school can suspend or expel a student for any conduct that "causes a substantial disruption of the educational process" And by the "substantial disruption" of the educational process they mean...not very much.

In terms of a hearing...well..again, it doesn't have to be much of one. Alot of schools will go through some formalities, and lots of forms, but really all that's required to satisfy the the courts is that the student be told why they are being disciplined and an opportunity to tell their side of the story.


Schools almost always win. When you consider how many tens of millions of students go through the educational system, the number of lawsuits is really pretty low.

Schools have a lot more power than people give them credit for.

When I'm researching for a school case, you know what outnumbers students suing a school district? Teachers suing a school district to either keep their job or get their job back. From the cases I've seen, its by about a 10-1 ratio, at minimum.

Title IX can be a source of litigation, but often that comes down to one thing...get a good anti-sexual discrimination policy in place and follow it.

If you're talking about something like IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act), you're talking about a different animal. These are special needs kids, where the school gets special needs funding. Even in those cases, a school can create more of their own problems then they're worth.

I've got one going on right now where the school is really starting to be a little annoying. No one is seeking millions of dollars, we're mostly seeking that the school
provide the kid a little individualized instruction, as was recommended in the IEP written by the school

But they'd rather have meetings. In one meeting, about a month ago, had the school attorney, an assistant superintendent, 3 principals, the director of special education, the director of secondary education, school psychologist, director of security (and the kid isn't even a behavioral problem).

It went on for hours. It was kind of fun, I almost came to blows with the director of special ed., I could have killed her in a fight.

But what I really thought about was the amount of man hours, at administrative salary, that was wasted as they went through their formalities. It could have probably paid for 6 months to a year of private tutoring for the kid.


If only it were this simple. Unfortunately, what you speak of is the furthest thing from the truth.

And yes, I do teach my kids how to defend themselves. In fact, I just did the other day, because our administration won't do anything about the fact that high school kids are picking up this poor 7th grader and placing him in a water fountain. So, I taught him a little self-defense, and it made his day.

[comericatigers]

No, I really haven't.. Seriously. But sure, I've had some zealots on both sides of the aisle, even at UB, believe it or not.








I'm not so sure... really.

I've had a few school discipline cases, and a few Title IX cases.

In school discipline situations, the due process afforded students is pretty minimal.

Though a student does have some due process rights (Goss v. Lopez), its not nearly that afforded an accused in a criminal case. (Bethel v. Frasier).

The scope of school discipline rules is really very broad. Though some schools have a more detailed conduct code, what it comes down to is that a school can suspend or expel a student for any conduct that "causes a substantial disruption of the educational process" And by the "substantial disruption" of the educational process they mean...not very much.

In terms of a hearing...well..again, it doesn't have to be much of one. Alot of schools will go through some formalities, and lots of forms, but really all that's required to satisfy the the courts is that the student be told why they are being disciplined and an opportunity to tell their side of the story.


Schools almost always win. When you consider how many tens of millions of students go through the educational system, the number of lawsuits is really pretty low.

Schools have a lot more power than people give them credit for.

When I'm researching for a school case, you know what outnumbers students suing a school district? Teachers suing a school district to either keep their job or get their job back. From the cases I've seen, its by about a 10-1 ratio, at minimum.

Title IX can be a source of litigation, but often that comes down to one thing...get a good anti-sexual discrimination policy in place and follow it.

If you're talking about something like IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act), you're talking about a different animal. These are special needs kids, where the school gets special needs funding. Even in those cases, a school can create more of their own problems then they're worth.

I've got one going on right now where the school is really starting to be a little annoying. No one is seeking millions of dollars, we're mostly seeking that the school
provide the kid a little individualized instruction, as was recommended in the IEP written by the school

But they'd rather have meetings. In one meeting, about a month ago, had the school attorney, an assistant superintendent, 3 principals, the director of special education, the director of secondary education, school psychologist, director of security (and the kid isn't even a behavioral problem).

It went on for hours. It was kind of fun, I almost came to blows with the director of special ed., I could have killed her in a fight.

But what I really thought about was the amount of man hours, at administrative salary, that was wasted as they went through their formalities. It could have probably paid for 6 months to a year of private tutoring for the kid.

I am really surpirsed by what I bolded. Are you a lawyer, and if you are do you practice law in New York State? It is almost next to impossible to be fired if a teacher receives tenure in NYS. Therefore I am very surprised by all these teachers that were fired and then tried to get their jobs back through the legal system.

Also your are referencing cases that have actually gone to court. Administrators usually buckle with the THREAT of a lawsuit.

[gilchristfan]

If only it were this simple. Unfortunately, what you speak of is the furthest thing from the truth.

It was a pretty long post. I covered alot of areas. You want to narrow down what you're talking about?


And yes, I do teach my kids how to defend themselves. In fact, I just did the other day, because our administration won't do anything about the fact that high school kids are picking up this poor 7th grader and placing him in a water fountain. So, I taught him a little self-defense, and it made his day.

You said you liked bullies.

...and I have nothing against self defense.

...and why won't your administration do anything about high school kids throwing a 7th grader in the water fountain?

[nehemiah]

i have to agree w/ gil that schools bury lawsuits all the time. if you can't afford to get a big-time firm to take the case, the school district simply buries you under paper and keeps holding out until your money is gone. i see it happen all the time... even in cases where the school was egregiously wrong.

[gilchristfan]

I am really surpirsed by what I bolded. Are you a lawyer, and if you are do you practice law in New York State? It is almost next to impossible to be fired if a teacher receives tenure in NYS. Therefore I am very surprised by all these teachers that were fired and then tried to get their jobs back through the legal system.

No, I don't practice in NY. (did for about 2 years long ago.)

Anyways, the rule here is that a tenured teacher does have a property interest in their employment, and generally, can only be removed for cause, and in all cases, only after a pretty extensive hearing.

In a practical sense, a tenured teacher has more procedural and substantive protections than a student. But your right, in most states, from what I've seen, tenured teachers are a bit untouchable.

Kinda makes you wonder, are teachers there for the students, or are the students there for the teachers?


Also your are referencing cases that have actually gone to court. Administrators usually buckle with the THREAT of a lawsuit.


Can you show me some stats about this?

[nehemiah]

Also your are referencing cases that have actually gone to court. Administrators usually buckle with the THREAT of a lawsuit.link?

[nehemiah]

and tenure is there to make a teacher untouchable. so that a 25 year teaching vet isn't removed because some religious freak on the school board wants her to say a prayer at recess and she won't do it.

you people are crazy, man.

all of ya.

[coryjd]

link?

There isn't a link man - it's called we deal with it every single day at our job. You need a link for something to be justified on here? Lame.

[nehemiah]

:rofl:

[comericatigers]

link?



Can you show me some stats about this?

Here we go. Pretty much sums it up:
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Lawsuits drain school dollars
Legal matters siphon away money that Hillsborough and Pinellas school districts could better utilize in the classroom.
By MELANIE AVE
Published February 2, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In Pinellas County, two Palm Harbor University High School baseball players sued the school district claiming they were wrongly booted from school because of a roughhousing incident that occurred on a team road trip.

In Hillsborough County, Robinson High School senior Nicole "Nikki" Youngblood filed suit after her picture was left out of the school yearbook when she refused to wear a feminine drape instead of a shirt and tie as she wished.

These two cases only scratch the surface of lawsuits filed against local public school districts on an almost daily basis. More and more, offenses that used to be settled inside the schoolhouse now end up at the courthouse.

The result, educators say, is less money for learning.

"We spend millions and millions on attorney fees every year that has nothing to do with the classroom," said Wayne Blanton, executive director of the Florida School Boards Association. "Every lawsuit we have to defend is money that doesn't get to the classroom."

There are discrimination suits filed by students and teachers alike. Disputes over school construction. A large number come from people injured in school bus accidents.

Some, all parties agree, are legitimate complaints. Others border on the ridiculous, attorneys say.

In 1985, Seminole High School twins sued the Pinellas County School Board after being forced to share valedictorian honors with a third student. In Hillsborough several years ago, a man sued the school district after he rode his motorcycle around the chained track at Hillsborough High School after hours and broke his arm. The case was dismissed.

"Lots of people file suit," said Crosby Few, Hillsborough School Board attorney. "A lot of them are frivolous."

School districts have long been easy targets for lawsuits, with constitutional issues such as free speech and religion at the heart of many challenges. Lawsuits, in fact, helped end the segregation of students by race in the public schools and ensured the adequate education of children with disabilities.

As education has become more complex with the pressures of achievement tests and accountability measures, the soil is even more ripe for legal challenges, some educators say. A 1999 study by the American Tort Reform Association found that 25 percent of school principals said they had faced a lawsuit or court settlement in the last two years.

"The school system is a big target," said John Bowen, Pinellas County School Board attorney. "Attorneys see it as a big pocket to go after."

Last year, Hillsborough spent $926,650 on legal fees, the largest bills dealing with employee disputes and real estate and construction issues. In Pinellas, the district spent nearly $1.3-million, with the most spent on liability and workers' compensation claims.

Zero-tolerance policies - in which students can be suspended or expelled for one offense - have also resulted in more lawsuits. One such case made headlines three years ago.

Two Palm Harbor University High School baseball players, Chris Pachik and Brian Pafundi, sued the school district after they were suspended for 10 days and reassigned to an alternative school for holding down a teammate during a team trip.

Believing they were the victims of a heavy-handed principal who used poor judgment, they tried to get their punishment overturned. They sued to attend their graduation but were denied.

Their attorney, Sherwood Coleman, said zero-tolerance policies leave no wiggle room for principals to determine the appropriate punishment. They are given definite actions to take for a whole host of offenses.

"Now you make the principal the real linchpin in the process," Coleman said. "That's a tremendous amount of power to put in the hands of the principal."

Sometimes schools could resolve complaints against them without going to court.

That's the belief of Karen Doering, staff attorney with the National Center for Lesbian Rights, in the case of Nikki Youngblood.

Lawsuits, she said, are always the last resort.

"Our first effort is always to contact the School Board and see what we can do to resolve this," she said. "In Nikki Youngblood's case, at some point, they drew a line in the sand."

In the fall of 2001, Youngblood was not allowed to pose for her senior yearbook picture in a jacket and tie because female students were required to wear a scoop-necked drape. Male students, however, could wear a white shirt, tie and dark jacket.

Youngblood said the policy was discriminatory because, as a lesbian, she does not wear traditional female clothes.

Her attorney, Doering, said she asked the Hillsborough School Board to change its policy and allow students to wear professional attire no matter their gender. Her request was turned down.

Doering sued in federal court, something she said the school district brought on itself. The case is pending before the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

"It's a horrible waste of money," she said. "It's shocking the School Board would choose to spend resources this way instead of coming to a number of reasonable compromises."

Attorneys say school districts have no choice but to spend thousands for lawyers.

Some districts, like Pinellas, have in-house legal staffs. Others, like Hillsborough, hire attorneys on a retainer. Almost all dole out certain cases to outside firms that specialize in negligence, workers' compensation and environmental claims.

The number of suits also can be linked to an increase in education laws, which blossomed in the 1960s.

Bowen, a school attorney since 1973, points to two books on a shelf in his office. Both were written on existing education laws by E. Edmund Reutter Jr. The first was published in 1960 and had 96 pages. The second came out 10 years later with 654 pages.

Today, Bowen's law library holds seven volumes of education laws.

"Look at all the laws we have," he said, referring to statutes addressing everything from freedom of expression to the rights of disabled students. "With the amount of legislation there is, there's no way a school district can get away without having an attorney."

While most everyone agrees the money spent on lawsuits takes funds away from the classroom, whether legal claims have undermined the education system is debatable.

The American Tort Reform Association's survey found that 57 percent of educators said lawsuits affected school programs.

In the book, Judging School Discipline: The Crisis of Moral Authority, the authors argue that the hundreds of lawsuits challenging school disciplinary procedures have hurt the quality of public education.

One of the authors, Richard Arum, an associate professor of sociology at New York University, said just the threat of lawsuits keeps teachers from taking charge of their classrooms.

Indeed, while the number of lawsuits climbs, threats to sue are even more common.

Yvonne Lyons, executive director of the Hillsborough Classroom Teachers Association, said teachers are often threatened by angry parents when they give out less than perfect grades to some students.

"When all else fails, that's what you come back with, "Well I'm going to sue,' " she said. "There are some parents who make this threat every single year to every single teacher their child has.

"Usually it's just frustration. New teachers, it just really scares them to death."

With many counties beginning new school choice student assignment plans, and graduation and grade promotion now attached to state achievement tests in Florida, some attorneys expect even more lawsuits. Case in point: The Largo father who sued the state after his son failed the test needed for him to receive a standard diploma. The father wanted to see the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test and his son's answer sheet.

An appeals court said he had no right to see the test. The case, which may be headed to the Florida Supreme Court, could force the state to make the FCAT available to parents, something state officials said could cost taxpayers millions.

Blanton, of the school boards association, sees no end to the proliferation of lawsuits as long as legislatures are making new laws and law schools are graduating attorneys.

"I don't think there's any limit to what type of lawsuit we face," he said. "The only advice I give (to school districts) is stick to your policies and do what's right."

- Melanie Ave can be reached at 813 226-3400 or melanie@sptimes.com

[Last modified February 2, 2004, 01:30:36]

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/02/02/Tampabay/Lawsuits_drain_school.shtml

[nehemiah]

thanks.

please note your bolded comments about how much trouble lawsuits cause a school are from an attorney for the school.

[comericatigers]

thanks.

please note your bolded comments about how much trouble lawsuits cause a school are from an attorney for the school.

Who do you want them from? The ACLU?

[C Darwin]

Kinda makes you wonder, are teachers there for the students, or are the students there for the teachers?
The students are there for the teachers, except in private schools.

[nehemiah]

Who do you want them from? The ACLU?don't get crabby.

i'm just saying. your proof that the school district is overburdened by lawsuits is a statement from the school district that the school district is overburdened by lawsuits.

nehemiah is only keepin' it real.

[comericatigers]

The students are there for the teachers, except in private schools.

lol

I hope you speak from experience Darwin. I can tell you from experience that is not always the case. Many teachers in private school are waiting for their chance to get into a public school--the market is flooded in NYS and to get a job one needs experience--hence private school. The one's who have been in private school for years can't hack it in public school because of discipline issues or they are just happy with where they are at. It also might help that their husband/wife is making a lot of money. And yes teachers in private schools are there for the students and so are public school teachers there for the students. And yes some public school teachers are just there for teure and a paycheck. Many poeple in other professions are just there for a paycheck as well.

[comericatigers]

don't get crabby.

i'm just saying. your proof that the school district is overburdened by lawsuits is a statement from the school district that the school district is overburdened by lawsuits.

nehemiah is only keepin' it real.

Here:
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Contact: State Rep. Fred Morgan
Capitol: (405) 557-7409
Oklahoma City: (405) 749-0045

OKLAHOMA CITY (Feb. 17, 2005) -- Legislation that would protect teachers from frivolous lawsuits is working its way through the legislative process with little opposition.


House Bill 2033, by Rep. Fred Morgan, creates the "Oklahoma Educator Protection Act,” which would protect teachers from frivolous lawsuits.


“This is an issue raised by teachers over and over,” Morgan said. “They’re in constant fear of being sued by parents or students because they gave a bad grade or disciplined a student. This bill just brings some measure of protection to them so they can do what they want and love to do – teach.”

Morgan said teachers have faced lawsuits for actions as simple as banning chewing gum in the classroom.

Even if a lawsuit is ultimately tossed out of court, he noted the teacher and school often face significant defense costs.


House Bill 2033 declares, “The filing of meritless lawsuits against school districts, teachers, administrators, and other school employees interferes with attempts to ensure the quality of public education, particularly where such lawsuits arise out of the good-faith efforts of educators to maintain classroom discipline or address threats to student safety. Meritless litigation also diverts financial and personnel resources to litigation defense activities and reduces the availability of such resources for educational opportunities for students. The Legislature finds that legislation to deter meritless lawsuits and sanction deliberately false reports against educators is a rational and appropriate method to address this compelling public interest.”


The bill then provides teachers with protection from liability for “any action regarding the control, grading, suspension, expulsion, or discipline of students” so long as those actions do not violate state or federal law.


The bill includes protections for teachers who use corporal punishment when a teacher “reasonably believes it necessary and appropriate to maintain discipline or to promote student welfare.”--I do not agree with that one--a little crazy and too old school (comericatigers)


The bill also requires school districts to adopt written policies spelling out how teachers are to handle students suspected of being intoxicated, under the influence of drugs, or carrying a weapon. Teachers who comply with those written guidelines would also be given immunity from liability.


If a lawsuit against a school or teacher is tossed out of court, House Bill 2033 would require the plaintiff to pay the teacher and school’s defense bill.


Morgan noted the proposal was endorsed by Gov. Brad Henry last year and the state House has approved similar legislation in the past.


House Bill 2033 easily passed out of the House Judiciary Committee on Thursday and is headed for a vote of the entire Oklahoma House of Representatives.


http://www.lsb.state.ok.us/house/news7252.html

[uppy]

But the rights of the kids are violated!!!

Its easy the Moon Battalion should send the Kids to private schools where
the kids rights are not violated.Just think if they act on their convictons our
taxes may go down.

:partysmilies:

[C Darwin]

lol

I hope you speak from experience Darwin. I can tell you from experience that is not always the case. Many teachers in private school are waiting for their chance to get into a public school--the market is flooded in NYS and to get a job one needs experience--hence private school. The one's who have been in private school for years can't hack it in public school because of discipline issues or they are jsut happy with where they are at. It also might help that their husband/wife is making a lot of money. And yes teachers in private schools are their for the students and so are public school teachers their for the students.
All true, but public schools can't "turn away" any students. Regardless what a student does in school, the public school can never truly expel and cut all ties. And why would any admin want to do that anyway? More kids, more money to control, more kids sometimes leads directly to a bigger paycheck.

So young adults who should be learning how to fix a car, lay pipe, wire a circuit, nail a frame together, sew, cook, garden, do taxes, or something practical, are forced to learn DNA transcription, factoring, stem leaf diagrams, 2 point perspective drawing, and pass a foreign language exam with out uttering one word of that language.

If the teachers were really there for the kids, they would be teaching them something useful. My point is not about commitment, it's about why the job exists.

[coryjd]

All true, but public schools can't "turn away" any students. Regardless what a student does in school, the public school can never truly expel and cut all ties. And why would any admin want to do that anyway? More kids, more money to control, more kids sometimes leads directly to a bigger paycheck.

So young adults who should be learning how to fix a car, lay pipe, wire a circuit, nail a frame together, sew, cook, garden, do taxes, or something practical, are forced to learn DNA transcription, factoring, stem leaf diagrams, 2 point perspective drawing, and pass a foreign language exam with out uttering one word of that language.

If the teachers were really there for the kids, they would be teaching them something useful. My point is not about commitment, it's about why the job exists.

First of all, you obviously don't understand how public schools work. In the past month, the school I teach in has shipped out 5 kids to different schools because of grades, behavior, and kids being expelled. It is not as difficult as you make it out to be.

Second of all, you are obviously unaware of what is going on in public schools. More and more trade-skill classes are being offered, and more and more general area/content teachers are being cut, along with fine and performing art teachers. We are now teaching DOWN to the kids, instead of expecting the kids to raise THEIR standards, both in education and life.

Third of all, the kids are the only reasons the teachers are there. Your final statement is the furthest thing from the truth. We don't go into this profession for the money (obviously, as I'm in my 6th year of teaching and haven't broke 40K yet) - we go into it for the kids, and the willingness to want to teach.

I'd love to hear your opinion about why the job exists. I need a good laugh, it's been a long day, dealing with kids that don't want to learn, have no respect for authority, and are quite frankly, *******s (most of them). Try explaining to a kid why they need a pencil, and see how long YOU last, when they come back at you with every excuse in the book. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.

[gilchristfan]

Here we go. Pretty much sums it up:
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Lawsuits drain school dollars
Legal matters siphon away money that Hillsborough and Pinellas school districts could better utilize in the classroom.
By MELANIE AVE
Published February 2, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In Pinellas County, two Palm Harbor University High School baseball players sued the school district claiming they were wrongly booted from school because of a roughhousing incident that occurred on a team road trip.

In Hillsborough County, Robinson High School senior Nicole "Nikki" Youngblood filed suit after her picture was left out of the school yearbook when she refused to wear a feminine drape instead of a shirt and tie as she wished.

These two cases only scratch the surface of lawsuits filed against local public school districts on an almost daily basis. More and more, offenses that used to be settled inside the schoolhouse now end up at the courthouse.

The result, educators say, is less money for learning.

"We spend millions and millions on attorney fees every year that has nothing to do with the classroom," said Wayne Blanton, executive director of the Florida School Boards Association. "Every lawsuit we have to defend is money that doesn't get to the classroom."

There are discrimination suits filed by students and teachers alike. Disputes over school construction. A large number come from people injured in school bus accidents.

Some, all parties agree, are legitimate complaints. Others border on the ridiculous, attorneys say.

In 1985, Seminole High School twins sued the Pinellas County School Board after being forced to share valedictorian honors with a third student. In Hillsborough several years ago, a man sued the school district after he rode his motorcycle around the chained track at Hillsborough High School after hours and broke his arm. The case was dismissed.

"Lots of people file suit," said Crosby Few, Hillsborough School Board attorney. "A lot of them are frivolous."

School districts have long been easy targets for lawsuits, with constitutional issues such as free speech and religion at the heart of many challenges. Lawsuits, in fact, helped end the segregation of students by race in the public schools and ensured the adequate education of children with disabilities.

As education has become more complex with the pressures of achievement tests and accountability measures, the soil is even more ripe for legal challenges, some educators say. A 1999 study by the American Tort Reform Association found that 25 percent of school principals said they had faced a lawsuit or court settlement in the last two years.

"The school system is a big target," said John Bowen, Pinellas County School Board attorney. "Attorneys see it as a big pocket to go after."

Last year, Hillsborough spent $926,650 on legal fees, the largest bills dealing with employee disputes and real estate and construction issues. In Pinellas, the district spent nearly $1.3-million, with the most spent on liability and workers' compensation claims.

Zero-tolerance policies - in which students can be suspended or expelled for one offense - have also resulted in more lawsuits. One such case made headlines three years ago.

Two Palm Harbor University High School baseball players, Chris Pachik and Brian Pafundi, sued the school district after they were suspended for 10 days and reassigned to an alternative school for holding down a teammate during a team trip.

Believing they were the victims of a heavy-handed principal who used poor judgment, they tried to get their punishment overturned. They sued to attend their graduation but were denied.

Their attorney, Sherwood Coleman, said zero-tolerance policies leave no wiggle room for principals to determine the appropriate punishment. They are given definite actions to take for a whole host of offenses.

"Now you make the principal the real linchpin in the process," Coleman said. "That's a tremendous amount of power to put in the hands of the principal."

Sometimes schools could resolve complaints against them without going to court.

That's the belief of Karen Doering, staff attorney with the National Center for Lesbian Rights, in the case of Nikki Youngblood.

Lawsuits, she said, are always the last resort.

"Our first effort is always to contact the School Board and see what we can do to resolve this," she said. "In Nikki Youngblood's case, at some point, they drew a line in the sand."

In the fall of 2001, Youngblood was not allowed to pose for her senior yearbook picture in a jacket and tie because female students were required to wear a scoop-necked drape. Male students, however, could wear a white shirt, tie and dark jacket.

Youngblood said the policy was discriminatory because, as a lesbian, she does not wear traditional female clothes.

Her attorney, Doering, said she asked the Hillsborough School Board to change its policy and allow students to wear professional attire no matter their gender. Her request was turned down.

Doering sued in federal court, something she said the school district brought on itself. The case is pending before the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

"It's a horrible waste of money," she said. "It's shocking the School Board would choose to spend resources this way instead of coming to a number of reasonable compromises."

Attorneys say school districts have no choice but to spend thousands for lawyers.

Some districts, like Pinellas, have in-house legal staffs. Others, like Hillsborough, hire attorneys on a retainer. Almost all dole out certain cases to outside firms that specialize in negligence, workers' compensation and environmental claims.

The number of suits also can be linked to an increase in education laws, which blossomed in the 1960s.

Bowen, a school attorney since 1973, points to two books on a shelf in his office. Both were written on existing education laws by E. Edmund Reutter Jr. The first was published in 1960 and had 96 pages. The second came out 10 years later with 654 pages.

Today, Bowen's law library holds seven volumes of education laws.

"Look at all the laws we have," he said, referring to statutes addressing everything from freedom of expression to the rights of disabled students. "With the amount of legislation there is, there's no way a school district can get away without having an attorney."

While most everyone agrees the money spent on lawsuits takes funds away from the classroom, whether legal claims have undermined the education system is debatable.

The American Tort Reform Association's survey found that 57 percent of educators said lawsuits affected school programs.

In the book, Judging School Discipline: The Crisis of Moral Authority, the authors argue that the hundreds of lawsuits challenging school disciplinary procedures have hurt the quality of public education.

One of the authors, Richard Arum, an associate professor of sociology at New York University, said just the threat of lawsuits keeps teachers from taking charge of their classrooms.

Indeed, while the number of lawsuits climbs, threats to sue are even more common.

Yvonne Lyons, executive director of the Hillsborough Classroom Teachers Association, said teachers are often threatened by angry parents when they give out less than perfect grades to some students.

"When all else fails, that's what you come back with, "Well I'm going to sue,' " she said. "There are some parents who make this threat every single year to every single teacher their child has.

"Usually it's just frustration. New teachers, it just really scares them to death."

With many counties beginning new school choice student assignment plans, and graduation and grade promotion now attached to state achievement tests in Florida, some attorneys expect even more lawsuits. Case in point: The Largo father who sued the state after his son failed the test needed for him to receive a standard diploma. The father wanted to see the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test and his son's answer sheet.

An appeals court said he had no right to see the test. The case, which may be headed to the Florida Supreme Court, could force the state to make the FCAT available to parents, something state officials said could cost taxpayers millions.

Blanton, of the school boards association, sees no end to the proliferation of lawsuits as long as legislatures are making new laws and law schools are graduating attorneys.

"I don't think there's any limit to what type of lawsuit we face," he said. "The only advice I give (to school districts) is stick to your policies and do what's right."

- Melanie Ave can be reached at 813 226-3400 or melanie@sptimes.com

[Last modified February 2, 2004, 01:30:36]

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/02/02/Tampabay/Lawsuits_drain_school.shtml

Great article. After reading all of the hysterics from the various administrators about how frivolous lawsuits are ruining modern education, I didn't want this part glossed over:


There are discrimination suits filed by students and teachers alike. Disputes over school construction. A large number come from people injured in school bus accidents.

Last year, Hillsborough spent $926,650 on legal fees, the largest bills dealing with employee disputes and real estate and construction issues. In Pinellas, the district spent nearly $1.3-million, with the most spent on liability and workers' compensation claims.

Proves what I said last night. Again, who's costing the schools all of this money on legal fees? Students don't file workers compensations claims. Students certainly aren't in the construction business, not even those in the building trades classes.

But, the Administrators will scream about these frivolous lawsuits, and cite 2 cases from the 1980's. 20+ years ago? Sheesh, how desperate can you get?

The lesbian claim seems a little silly. I wouldn't get involved in it, because I only like pornstar lesbians, but that's another story.

But think about it for a second..if its at the 11th Circuit, the school has spent between 50k and 100k, minimum, to keep some girl from wearing a shirt and tie for her yearbook picture Doesn't that seem just a tad obsessively authoritarian to you?

I know, I know, slippery slope. If she wears one, next thing you know...more chicks will be wearing shirts and ties. The horror.

Again, wipe the rhetoric from the article, and it supports what I said before.

[FamousAmos]

Think back to when we all were in school (those of us 25 or above). Bullies were like the rogue agents of the schools. NO ONE crossed a bully, and they kept kids in line. They made the life of an administrator easy. Think about it, if you were some punk 7th grade kid, all it took was a threat or a whooping from an upper classmen to straighten you out and shut you up. That's a fact!

C'mon man, as a teacher, you should know thats not the way it should be. Maybe I am misunderstanding your opinion.

Sometimes I feel like a friggin outcast being like one of only five teachers on this board and having to defend my beliefs against some of the more outspoken posters here.

Youre out of line here. As an educator, you are not supposed to encourage violence as a means for problem solving, mediation through conversation and common sense is the the first step towards conflict resolution.

[FamousAmos]

First of all, you obviously don't understand how public schools work. In the past month, the school I teach in has shipped out 5 kids to different schools because of grades, behavior, and kids being expelled. It is not as difficult as you make it out to be.

Second of all, you are obviously unaware of what is going on in public schools. More and more trade-skill classes are being offered, and more and more general area/content teachers are being cut, along with fine and performing art teachers. We are now teaching DOWN to the kids, instead of expecting the kids to raise THEIR standards, both in education and life.

Third of all, the kids are the only reasons the teachers are there. Your final statement is the furthest thing from the truth. We don't go into this profession for the money (obviously, as I'm in my 6th year of teaching and haven't broke 40K yet) - we go into it for the kids, and the willingness to want to teach.

I'd love to hear your opinion about why the job exists. I need a good laugh, it's been a long day, dealing with kids that don't want to learn, have no respect for authority, and are quite frankly, *******s (most of them). Try explaining to a kid why they need a pencil, and see how long YOU last, when they come back at you with every excuse in the book. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.

This doesn't fit with the No Child Left behind legislation. In addition to teachers being helf accountable for their teaching through state wide assessments of skills areas, the NCLB Act insists on school distrcits focusing more on content areas, rather than other skill sets.

I'm assuming your schol district has to be inline with this legislation and from what i understand, teachers don't have the opportunity to slow down for their students. Always teaching to the test, teachers have to maintain a certain standard when instructing students.

Unfortunately, I believe the standards set for our students do not take into account the multiple litercies of our students and the differences in learning they have. There is no one size fits all curriculum, and if I am generalizing this, it's because I am a reading teacher (almost!).

To get back to what you said, teachers cannot afford to teach down to the students, because if they do, they will not meet state or national standards, and consequently, students will be unable to excel through state wide assessment.

On a more personal note, if teachers were allowed to teach down to their students, my English Language Learner today would have been given individual instruction in Math through a bilingual program (school district is heavily Latino), test woulda been in Spanish, and the student would have been assessed on her math skills rather than her understanding of the English language.

[35Pete]

What irony.

I am reading a thread about schools and simultaneously watching a schooling occur. LOL

[35Pete]

NCLB is a bull shit piece of legistlation.

[FamousAmos]

As for student discipline,

teaching in both middle and high school, they have in school suspension, which is no more than kids being sent to a room for half a day, being baby sitted by another teacher, doing homework or taking a test. It;s like a study hall, but with no talking.

How does that teach respect and responsibility to a student who has no concept of how to act properly (this means showing respect to both the other students and the teacher) in a school setting?

Furthermore, how does a school teach morals and "manners"? to a student? Its a difficult challenge for educators to do so, but it can be done through just talking about the real life and the outside world. No need for religion to make good morals stick,

teachers need to be able to help students understand that certain actions bring about consequences and the real trick is to get the students to care about the decisions they make.

If kids grow up believing that they can solve a problem or conflict between another kid through using their fists, then they are going to end up as an adult doing the same thing.

There difintely needs to be something done in the earlier grades, in terms of character development, is what they call it. I think ts bullshit because no kid cares about some poster that promotes respect, honesty, citizenship, etc.

Educators need to find a way to make kids care, its just not happening, though!

[FamousAmos]

NCLB is a bull shit piece of legistlation.

yeah, most educators agree, but its what we have right now. I can't stand it myself, there are so many things wrong with it.

it doesnt change the fact that, as a public education institution, schools have to follow it as long as it lasts, regardless if it is good legislation,or not.

i don't agree with it, no. But schools are stuck with it, administrators harp on it to teachers for making sure your students are prepared for this years ' ELA exam

[FamousAmos]

of course, I believe the motivation behind NCLB is federal dollars, which totally undermines what education is supposed to be about. Shifting the focus away from the good of the student to the good of the school district.

[FamousAmos]

anybody agree? disagree? c'mon, I'm writing my thesis, which is burning a small hole through my brain, I need something else to think about!

[C Darwin]

First of all, you obviously don't understand how public schools work. In the past month, the school I teach in has shipped out 5 kids to different schools because of grades, behavior, and kids being expelled. It is not as difficult as you make it out to be.
Do understand what BEDS day is? Even though these students are gone from your school, their future test scores still count for your school. It's not a complete sever.

Also, obviously I don't know all of the details surrounding these suspensions, but I'm willing to bet the parents didn't fight to keep their children in the same school. If they did, they would have easily won that battle.

Second of all, you are obviously unaware of what is going on in public schools. More and more trade-skill classes are being offered, and more and more general area/content teachers are being cut, along with fine and performing art teachers. We are now teaching DOWN to the kids, instead of expecting the kids to raise THEIR standards, both in education and life.
More and more is not enough. But actually it doesn't matter. Unless the student goes to an accredited school, regardless of what they learn in HS, they will still be unemployable out of HS. The accreditation system is a total sham where the trades control and profit from the schools.

Third of all, the kids are the only reasons the teachers are there.
Exactly, the students are there so teachers can have jobs. Their not there to be productive, or to be integrated into a high demand field, or to be held to high social standard. They show up to meet the state standards. In other words, to do the bare minimum. Low end schools are an employment agency for certified teachers more than anything else.

Your final statement is the furthest thing from the truth. We don't go into this profession for the money (obviously, as I'm in my 6th year of teaching and haven't broke 40K yet) - we go into it for the kids, and the willingness to want to teach.
Who is we? Is there a mouse in your pocket? If your teaching kids from the back end of the bell curve, you might make progress, but differences are rarely made by teachers.

I'd love to hear your opinion about why the job exists. I need a good laugh, it's been a long day, dealing with kids that don't want to learn, have no respect for authority, and are quite frankly, *******s (most of them). Try explaining to a kid why they need a pencil, and see how long YOU last, when they come back at you with every excuse in the book. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.
Your job exists as a result of people believing a traditional education is for everybody, which is an absolute lie. 10% of the population might have a use for a graphing calculator after high school, but at this point, EVERY student needs to be tested on effin' derivatives? Puh-lease.

If you're a sixth year teacher in the inner-city, you are at a suckhole school, you're surrounded by rookies and burn-outs, and your admin is a Delta (http://www.deltasigmatheta.org/cms/) affirmative action hire. If you're not doing it for the money and the kids that you do it for couldn't care less, you're on your way to burnoutsville. Take an interest in the money you make, you'll last longer and go farther. Sad but true.

[C Darwin]

As for student discipline,

teaching in both middle and high school, they have in school suspension, which is no more than kids being sent to a room for half a day, being baby sitted by another teacher, doing homework or taking a test. It;s like a study hall, but with no talking.

How does that teach respect and responsibility to a student who has no concept of how to act properly (this means showing respect to both the other students and the teacher) in a school setting?
I have come to believe that ISS or traditional suspensions are not about correcting the kid with the problem, but cutting your losses. If a kid can't fall in line, he gets das boot. Teachers should focus on the kids that are towing the line, not on insecure little shits whose parents never pay attention to them. Discipline should be the least labor intensive task a school does. Why waste the resources on douchebags? Get them out and don't give them the attention they desire for behaving the wrong way. (or the wong way)

[FamousAmos]

Do understand what BEDS day is? Even though these students are gone from your school, their future test scores still count for your school. It's not a complete sever.

Also, obviously I don't know all of the details surrounding these suspensions, but I'm willing to bet the parents didn't fight to keep their children in the same school. If they did, they would have easily won that battle.


More and more is not enough. But actually it doesn't matter. Unless the student goes to an accredited school, regardless of what they learn in HS, they will still be unemployable out of HS. The accreditation system is a total sham where the trades control and profit from the schools.


Exactly, the students are there so teachers can have jobs. Their not there to be productive, or to be integrated into a high demand field, or to be held to high social standard. They show up to meet the state standards. In other words, to do the bare minimum. Low end schools are an employment agency for certified teachers more than anything else.


Who is we? Is there a mouse in your pocket? If your teaching kids from the back end of the bell curve, you might make progress, but differences are rarely made by teachers.


Your job exists as a result of people believing a traditional education is for everybody, which is an absolute lie. 10% of the population might have a use for a graphing calculator after high school, but at this point, EVERY student needs to be tested on effin' derivatives? Puh-lease.

If you're a sixth year teacher in the inner-city, you are at a suckhole school, you're surrounded by rookies and burn-outs, and your admin is a Delta (http://www.deltasigmatheta.org/cms/) affirmative action hire. If you're not doing it for the money and the kids that you do it for couldn't care less, you're on your way to burnoutsville. Take an interest in the money you make, you'll last longer and go farther. Sad but true.

Is it possible for the general public to support the average teacher, or are teachers such an easy target that, its just more convenient to blame the the teacher for the problems of schooling.

[FamousAmos]

I have come to believe that ISS or traditional suspensions are not about correcting the kid with the problem, but cutting your losses. If a kid can't fall in line, he gets das boot. Teachers should focus on the kids that are towing the line, not on insecure little shits whose parents never pay attention to them. Discipline should be the least labor intensive task a school does. Why waste the resources on douchebags? Get them out and don't give them the attention they desire for behaving the wrong way. (or the wong way)

it may be naiive, but at an early stage in teacher education, we are taught that EVERY student can learn. Thats part of our pedagogy.

You're right, it does get frustrating when you have a little shit that can't keep his mouth shut, or tries to disrupt the class just so that he can get a rise out of his friends.

I was told that you never let your students see you get frustrated or flustered, I broke that rule a bunch of times already!!! its very hard to do so when some kid is farting uncontrollably and you can't breathe.

Its unbelievable the number of things that could go wrong and get your lesson off track.

Hell,t hats why I'm going into Childhood education where I hopefully can either put the fear of God into my kids or teach them at an age where they actually look up to adults and respect them. That may not be the case for some, though!

[C Darwin]

Is it possible for the general public to support the average teacher, or are teachers such an easy target that, its just more convenient to blame the the teacher for the problems of schooling.
I think people for the most part support teachers. They don't always support the union you're usually forced to join, but people understand how difficult of a task it is. If anyone is critical of teachers, it's usually the media, not actual people.

[C Darwin]

it may be naiive, but at an early stage in teacher education, we are taught that EVERY student can learn. Thats part of our pedagogy.
Every student can learn, but it's up to them, not the teacher. Just because the teacher is teaching, that doesn't mean that the student is choosing to be active in the lesson.

You're right, it does get frustrating when you have a little shit that can't keep his mouth shut, or tries to disrupt the class just so that he can get a rise out of his friends.

I was told that you never let your students see you get frustrated or flustered, I broke that rule a bunch of times already!!! its very hard to do so when some kid is farting uncontrollably and you can't breathe.

Loosing your shit never helps. Calling parents is the most effective thing you can do. Tact is a vitally important skill because basically you're calling to ask the parent to do a better job (as long as you're not the one who made the situation worse).

Its unbelievable the number of things that could go wrong and get your lesson off track.
If everything goes in the crapper, learn from it, but don't dwell on it. Fix the problem in your lesson plan (or shit can it), then ask the hot teacher across the hall if she'll meet you for a drink and a debriefing. :)

Hell,t hats why I'm going into Childhood education where I hopefully can either put the fear of God into my kids or teach them at an age where they actually look up to adults and respect them. That may not be the case for some, though!
Good kids are good, bad kids are bad, age doesn't matter.