Why are you against Socialism

[Gibby]

Thoughtful and well spoken posts only. Why are you so against the ideology which has inspired, by fear of it and/or support for it, universal education, workers protection, abolishment of child labor, healthcare, consumer protection, civil rights, welfare, busting of monopolies and trusts, housing assistance, pensions for long working pensioners. I mean I know why I am for it, but I want to know why you are against it? Is it selfishness? Is it greed? Is it that it goes against your bottom line? Is it ignorance of history? Is it because of what you learned in elementary school? What is it? It could be something else so please tell me in your own words and as intelligently as possible why you are against socialism.

[shiva2999]

Thoughtful and well spoken posts only. Why are you so against the ideology which has inspired, by fear of it and/or support for it, universal education, workers protection, abolishment of child labor, healthcare, consumer protection, civil rights, welfare, busting of monopolies and trusts, housing assistance, pensions for long working pensioners. I mean I know why I am for it, but I want to know why you are against it? Is it selfishness? Is it greed? Is it that it goes against your bottom line? Is it ignorance of history? Is it because of what you learned in elementary school? What is it? It could be something else so please tell me in your own words and as intelligently as possible why you are against socialism.

I hope you get some serious answers but I suspect they'll all come down to one basic argument.

"Socialism wants to steal my money."

[Gibby]

I hope you get some serious answers but I suspect they'll all come down to one basic argument.

"Socialism wants to steal my money."

This is my fear too.

[anEinherjer]

Thanks Gibby for the thread - I appreciate the sentiment, and I will try to offer up the best answer that I can.

I have no problem with collective action. I have no problem with communities banding together to do anything. Why would I? It would be a cold cold world if there was no trust, no cameraderie, no friendship or community.

That said, I have a problem when that community imposes its will on me. And it really has very little to do with "money" (**** you Shiv, you liar). The entire premise of my philosophy is to avoid imposing my will on others unrelated to me, and to avoid their imposing their will on me - particularly with the thread of force.

For example: Give me the choice of 3 car insurance companies, or force me to get insurance from one place. The cost is the same. I will fight like hell for the choice, thank you. In fact, even if the cost of the 1 is much cheaper, I will choose my own way, thankyouverymuch.

Free association ought to be an inalienable right.

[shiva2999]

That said, I have a problem when that community imposes its will on me.

http://www.erikaschickel.com/Images/Erika_Schickel_BossOfMe.jpg

[Gibby]

Thanks Gibby for the thread - I appreciate the sentiment, and I will try to offer up the best answer that I can.

I have no problem with collective action. I have no problem with communities banding together to do anything. Why would I? It would be a cold cold world if there was no trust, no cameraderie, no friendship or community.

That said, I have a problem when that community imposes its will on me. And it really has very little to do with "money" (**** you Shiv, you liar). The entire premise of my philosophy is to avoid imposing my will on others unrelated to me, and to avoid their imposing their will on me - particularly with the thread of force.

For example: Give me the choice of 3 car insurance companies, or force me to get insurance from one place. The cost is the same. I will fight like hell for the choice, thank you. In fact, even if the cost of the 1 is much cheaper, I will choose my own way, thankyouverymuch.

Free association ought to be an inalienable right.

Okay I disagree with this, but it shows some thoughtfulness so thank you for your answer. Anyone else?

Now some counters outside of the East Bloc and 3CP how does socialism force you to choose and or choose for you? Do we not have the same in the laissez faires free market economy of libertarianism? I mean suppose I wanted to start up my own oil company would I be allowed or would I be killed for wanting to establish a company that provided oil at .50 a gallon? (Standard Oil anyone?) In the end how does socialism force you to choose? I am not trying to be confrontational, but I am curious how does socialism force you to choose? Any state involved in the 70 year long Soviet experiment do not count.

[sukie]

Greed... That being one of my choices here...

I agree with anEin in that communities are one thing but the nation as a whole "colletctive" is too large. That's why there are actual states with counties and cities/towns.

If we collectively socialize the "nation" then when is there a cry to socially care for the Phyllum we belong to

[Gibby]

well sukie at least you are honest.

[sukie]

You offered up Greed as a choice. I prefer to call it preserving what is mine.

[anEinherjer]

Gib: America is still one of the most free places in the world, no doubt about that. I argue to keep it that way, and keep people from pushing me down a path I disagree with.

My problem is in a great many cases we're nowhere as free as I'd like to be. I'll give you one specific example right now - not to debate it specifically but just to answer your question about how socialism is forcing something on me: Social Security. I pay 7.5% of my salary, and my employer pays another 7.5% (so in reality, I'm taxed 15%) to pay for current retirees, and "guarantee" that I'll have some income when "my time comes". I have no option whether or not to do this (though that's apparently up for debate thanks to kentuck). Once I'm older I can choose not to get "what's coming to me", but at that point, I've put a ton in (15%!) so I might as well get something back out.

I disagree that this is One True Way. I disagree that the young should be paying so the old can retire. I disagree that all Americans should be eligible to retire at age 62 (!).

I can already see Shiva whining that this is about money - but it's not. I'd rather put the 15% away for my own purposes, or send to a charity to help those elders who actually need it, rather than a generational wealth transfer scheme.

I don't have a choice but to participate in it.

I can provide other examples, but I DO have a job (believe it or don't) :D




Shiv: you're ESPECIALLY not the boss of me, sucker. Come to America and impose your will, big guy!

[shiva2999]

I disagree that the young should be paying so the old can retire.

Who paid for the young so they could grow up?

You're really an ungrateful bastard, aren't you?

[pmoon6]

Gib: America is still one of the most free places in the world, no doubt about that. I argue to keep it that way, and keep people from pushing me down a path I disagree with.

My problem is in a great many cases we're nowhere as free as I'd like to be. I'll give you one specific example right now - not to debate it specifically but just to answer your question about how socialism is forcing something on me: Social Security. I pay 7.5% of my salary, and my employer pays another 7.5% (so in reality, I'm taxed 15%) to pay for current retirees, and "guarantee" that I'll have some income when "my time comes". I have no option whether or not to do this (though that's apparently up for debate thanks to kentuck). Once I'm older I can choose not to get "what's coming to me", but at that point, I've put a ton in (15%!) so I might as well get something back out.

I disagree that this is One True Way. I disagree that the young should be paying so the old can retire. I disagree that all Americans should be eligible to retire at age 62 (!).

I can already see Shiva whining that this is about money - but it's not. I'd rather put the 15% away for my own purposes, or send to a charity to help those elders who actually need it, rather than a generational wealth transfer scheme.

I don't have a choice but to participate in it.

I can provide other examples, but I DO have a job (believe it or don't) :D




Shiv: you're ESPECIALLY not the boss of me, sucker. Come to America and impose your will, big guy!Wow. I guess raising kids and sacrificing so our children have better lives gets you a big FU at the end of the day.

I've got my retirement planned for myself without even considering Social Security. Should my investments not pan out I have a backup plan.

Did you ever see the movie "Going In Style" with George Burns, Art Carney and Lee Strasberg? I will be the George Burns character.

P.S. To quote John Lennon: "How do you sleep at night, ya ****"

[anEinherjer]

I've got my retirement planned for myself without even considering Social Security. Should my investments not pan out I have a backup plan.

Good for you, but in the meantime your taxes are 15% higher because other people might not have been as smart (or responsible) as you. You are the sucker in this tragedy of the commons.

I really don't want to make this about SS - sorry Gib.


My problem is with collectivism via threat of death. Collectivism by choice is a wonderful thing - one reason I prefer housing associations to counties. State, county, town boundaries are an anachronism, really.

[pmoon6]

You are the sucker in this tragedy of the commons.I don't consider myself a sucker and I don't mind paying to help others. I do agree with your point about being coerced into it, but I would help anyway. I do make quite a few charitable contributions, many local. As far as SS goes, I rationalize it by thinking I am helping pay for my 85 year old mother and others her age that did not have an easy life going through the Depression and WWII. Those are the people that made this country great and I don't begrudge them the small amount of money they get in their twilight years.

I live pretty comfortably and I don't need very much possession wise to be happy.

Frugality is a thing of the past.

Maybe some of the younger generation should try it instead of bitching about how much is taken out of their check.

Just a thought.

[anEinherjer]

Who paid for the young so they could grow up?

You're really an ungrateful bastard, aren't you?

:rofl: Okay, let's make this all about me and SS. Good job hijacking the thread.

Allow me to rephrase: I disagree that the young should be forced to pay under threat of death so the old can retire.

[anEinherjer]

Hey Gibby, I'm wondering where you get some of the assertions in your original post. For example, I'm pretty sure most of the "features" you mentioned existed in one form or another before "socialism"... I'm just curious, for instance, how you decided that "socialism" was the driving force behind "consumer protection".

[sukie]

I don't like the drab wool uniforms that socialism would require. Too itchy!

[shiva2999]

I disagree that the young should be forced to pay under threat of death so the old can retire.

So we can force them with the threat of 50 lashes and a good buggering with a baseball bat?

[Green Lantern]

Thanks Gibby for the thread - I appreciate the sentiment, and I will try to offer up the best answer that I can.

I have no problem with collective action. I have no problem with communities banding together to do anything. Why would I? It would be a cold cold world if there was no trust, no cameraderie, no friendship or community.

That said, I have a problem when that community imposes its will on me. And it really has very little to do with "money" (**** you Shiv, you liar). The entire premise of my philosophy is to avoid imposing my will on others unrelated to me, and to avoid their imposing their will on me - particularly with the thread of force.

For example: Give me the choice of 3 car insurance companies, or force me to get insurance from one place. The cost is the same. I will fight like hell for the choice, thank you. In fact, even if the cost of the 1 is much cheaper, I will choose my own way, thankyouverymuch.

Free association ought to be an inalienable right.


Does it not bother you that the government has forced you to get insurance? If not, how did you decide where to draw the line as to what is forced on you and what you accept?

[sukie]

What insurance was I forced to get under threat of the government?

[Green Lantern]

What insurance was I forced to get under threat of the government?

Car insurance.

[sukie]

The Feds mandate that?

[Green Lantern]

The Feds mandate that?

First, my question was directed at anEin. Second, anEin brought up CAR insurance. Third, I think you were the first to drag the Federal government into the discussion.

[sukie]

Fed's makes it socialism.

[Green Lantern]

Fed's makes it socialism.

You are full of it.

[Gibby]

Hey Gibby, I'm wondering where you get some of the assertions in your original post. For example, I'm pretty sure most of the "features" you mentioned existed in one form or another before "socialism"... I'm just curious, for instance, how you decided that "socialism" was the driving force behind "consumer protection".

dear AnEin please put down the Ayn Rand and pick up "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. It should be somewhere in your stacks of books eh librarian?

[jimmifli]

I hope you get some serious answers but I suspect they'll all come down to one basic argument.

"Socialism wants to steal my money."
That is a thoughtful response.

It's the question of whether I own my own work.

[anEinherjer]

dear AnEin please put down the Ayn Rand and pick up "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. It should be somewhere in your stacks of books eh librarian?

Dear Gibby, for me to put it down, I'd actually have to pick up an Ayn Rand book - never read one. And no, neither is Upton Sinclair, sorry.


Aqua: I rather don't like anything forced upon me, but I guess you're okay with it. Remember folks, laws only apply to the lawful - I'd buy car insurance anyway (in exactly the same way as moonie said he'd help his elders anyway), but many states require it.


Also, you guys might want to consider that given your general attitudes towards government oversight over lawful behavior, we'd still be subjects of the Crown. Gibby, you should know this as well as anyone considering your schoolwork, but it's instructive to me to consider the really minimal "the causes which impel(led) them to the separation."

And no, I don't buy for one second that somehow society is "fundamentally different" today than it was in 1776, and that we need more laws and intrusion into our personal lives now.


Shiv: Excellent response. The "unga bunga with baseball bat" gave me a fit of laughter.

[Tedp]

Thoughtful and well spoken posts only. Why are you so against the ideology which has inspired, by fear of it and/or support for it, universal education, workers protection, abolishment of child labor, healthcare, consumer protection, civil rights, welfare, busting of monopolies and trusts, housing assistance, pensions for long working pensioners. I mean I know why I am for it, but I want to know why you are against it? Is it selfishness? Is it greed? Is it that it goes against your bottom line? Is it ignorance of history? Is it because of what you learned in elementary school? What is it? It could be something else so please tell me in your own words and as intelligently as possible why you are against socialism.
You credited socialism with things that occured before it was even born, you should be crediting Democratic Capatilism.

[Crinoline]

The problem with socialism is not it's intentions but in how it is carried out. I just don't believe mankind is at the point where we can be magnanimous enough to make it work. Too many people with not so nice intentions always end up in charge.

[Gibby]

The problem with socialism is not it's intentions but in how it is carried out. I just don't believe mankind is at the point where we can be magnanimous enough to make it work. Too many people with not so nice intentions always end up in charge.

Sweden, Canada, and Western Europe are governed by tyrants? Really? I agree that Marxism does lead to psychotic dictatorships but Socialism established the modern European welfare state and as I have alluded to countless times inoculated the western world against Bolshevism from the United States to post war Germany.

[shiva2999]

That is a thoughtful response.

It's the question of whether I own my own work.

You own your own work until you try to sell it.

Then it becomes your money.

And we've already had the discussion about whether it's all your money.

And the fact is, until you get to the point where you can make money with your work, you've benefitted enormously from the work of others without having to pay for it.

[35Pete]

Thoughtful and well spoken posts only. Why are you so against the ideology which has inspired, by fear of it and/or support for it, universal education, workers protection, abolishment of child labor, healthcare, consumer protection, civil rights, welfare, busting of monopolies and trusts, housing assistance, pensions for long working pensioners. I mean I know why I am for it, but I want to know why you are against it? Is it selfishness? Is it greed? Is it that it goes against your bottom line? Is it ignorance of history? Is it because of what you learned in elementary school? What is it? It could be something else so please tell me in your own words and as intelligently as possible why you are against socialism.

Cause it sucks. That's why.

[nehemiah]

:rofl:

[Gibby]

Cause it sucks. That's why.

you are better than this.

[shiva2999]

Ultimately, we can see what this little exercise has proved.

Those of us on the left are willing to run a blended economy and society, taking the best ideas from the left AND the right to try and achieve a society with the maximum amount of freedom for all.

The right however, sees NO benefit in ANY ideas put forward by the left and is willing to fight tooth and nail against ANYTHING that goes against pure rightist dogma.

So you tell me.

Who are the extremists?

[Gibby]

Ultimately, we can see what this little exercise has proved.

Those of us on the left are willing to run a blended economy and society, taking the best ideas from the left AND the right to try and achieve a society with the maximum amount of freedom for all.

The right however, sees NO benefit in ANY ideas put forward by the left and is willing to fight tooth and nail against ANYTHING that goes against pure rightist dogma.

So you tell me.

Who are the extremists?

:clapper: well said.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I live in Germany right now and Socialism is a pain in the butt. For example, my internet/cable/phone service has basically no competition and they are terrible. Their customer service is completely inexcusable, but because they have nobody to compete with as in a capitalist economy they dont seem to care.

Also, people dont really have a lot of money here. They really honestly do milk the goverment a lot for its free benefits. They dont get rich off of it, but Germans dont seem to want as much as Americans so it is okay with them to live very very modestly. Its not seen as a bad thing like in America.

To be honest im not sure if the socialism created the poor work ethic, or the poor ethic created the need for socialism. To be fair though its only a poor work ethic to an American. They get by just fine and live nice simple lives. Its just weird to see the streets filled with unemployed working aged males at 2 in the afternoon.

I cant wait to get back to Capitalism, but if you dont mind living a modest (and boring if you ask me) lifestyle then socialism is fine. Its just not for me really.

[sorry if that is a rambling post, I'm on percocet right now and its making it difficult to concentrate!]

[Gibby]

I live in Germany right now and Socialism is a pain in the butt. For example, my internet/cable/phone service has basically no competition and they are terrible. Their customer service is completely inexcusable, but because they have nobody to compete with as in a capitalist economy they dont seem to care.

Also, people dont really have a lot of money here. They really honestly do milk the goverment a lot for its free benefits. They dont get rich off of it, but Germans dont seem to want as much as Americans so it is okay with them to live very very modestly. Its not seen as a bad thing like in America.

To be honest im not sure if the socialism created the poor work ethic, or the poor ethic created the need for socialism. To be fair though its only a poor work ethic to an American. They get by just fine and live nice simple lives. Its just weird to see the streets filled with unemployed working aged males at 2 in the afternoon.

I cant wait to get back to Capitalism, but if you dont mind living a modest (and boring if you ask me) lifestyle then socialism is fine. Its just not for me really.

[sorry if that is a rambling post, I'm on percocet right now and its making it difficult to concentrate!]

okay, good insight please collect your thanks. :D

[BuffaloRedleg]

lol i thought you wanted it civil i could have just said SOCIALISM SUCKS TRUST ME I KNOW and been done with it :p

[Gibby]

lol i thought you wanted it civil i could have just said SOCIALISM SUCKS TRUST ME I KNOW and been done with it :p

yeah, but that would have been a groan. See by saying why you did not like it I learn and you bring up valid points such as you have to choose between economic affluency and economic security and this is definitely a con to socialism -perhaps its biggest. So thank you for giving a thoughtful answer instead of the socialism sucks trust me I know response.

[shiva2999]

I spent a couple of months in Munich a few years ago and I've never seen a richer city overall.

Lovely city, lovely architecture, clean, not one beater on the road.

Even the unemployed were comfortable.

What a disaster.

[Gibby]

I spent a couple of months in Munich a few years ago and I've never seen a richer city overall.

Lovely city, lovely architecture, clean, not one beater on the road.

Even the unemployed were comfortable.

What a disaster.

Ever go to Hamburg? I hear that that place is a real shit hole.

[35Pete]

http://www.erikaschickel.com/Images/Erika_Schickel_BossOfMe.jpg

Wow. You're attitude about people in this picture is stunning bro.

It's not a tantrum. It's grownups telling people that are telling them what to do to go **** themselves.

Big difference.

[35Pete]

you are better than this.

Your question is beneath me bro. That's why you got the answer that you did.

Nothing personal.

[C Darwin]

I believe the power of the consumer is greater than the power of the voter, and I'm far from being an absolute libertarian.

[jimmifli]

You own your own work until you try to sell it.

Then it becomes your money.

And we've already had the discussion about whether it's all your money.

And the fact is, until you get to the point where you can make money with your work, you've benefitted enormously from the work of others without having to pay for it.

Which gets us back to where we were before. An obligation to society exists. You think government is the best method to fulfill that obligation. I don't.

[35Pete]

I live in Germany right now and Socialism is a pain in the butt. For example, my internet/cable/phone service has basically no competition and they are terrible. Their customer service is completely inexcusable, but because they have nobody to compete with as in a capitalist economy they dont seem to care.

Also, people dont really have a lot of money here. They really honestly do milk the goverment a lot for its free benefits. They dont get rich off of it, but Germans dont seem to want as much as Americans so it is okay with them to live very very modestly. Its not seen as a bad thing like in America.

To be honest im not sure if the socialism created the poor work ethic, or the poor ethic created the need for socialism. To be fair though its only a poor work ethic to an American. They get by just fine and live nice simple lives. Its just weird to see the streets filled with unemployed working aged males at 2 in the afternoon.

I cant wait to get back to Capitalism, but if you dont mind living a modest (and boring if you ask me) lifestyle then socialism is fine. Its just not for me really.

[sorry if that is a rambling post, I'm on percocet right now and its making it difficult to concentrate!]

Nice post. Welcome to the PRS.

Hey. I was on perc's from 10/1 to 10/15 for an aggravated herniated disk.

I felt groovy for 14 days of that time. But I eventually called my doctor screaming for something else. Know why?

1. They were ruining me. That shit is strong. (10 mg every 6 hours).
2. I was hoping to be able to take a crap in the month of October (narcotics bind you up).

Careful bro. Perc's will remind you that it's time to take a perc.

[35Pete]

My snide attitude in this thread is over why the hell are we even discussing this?

Socialism as a system has been discredited. It's an "ash heap" of history philosophy and system.

I'm serious. Move on to something more productive for God's sake. Like how to disassemble the gov't safety net and return power to the individual.

Perhaps how to instill charity as a highly desirable virtue so that a broad-based private charity network provides the emergency safety net.

These are topics worth discussing and I'd love to hear ideas.

Socialism is dead. Get over it.

[pmoon6]

My snide attitude in this thread is over why the hell are we even discussing this?

Socialism as a system has been discredited. It's an "ash heap" of history philosophy and system.

I'm serious. Move on to something more productive for God's sake. Like how to disassemble the gov't safety net and return power to the individual.

Perhaps how to instill charity as a highly desirable virtue so that a broad-based private charity network provides the emergency safety net.

These are topics worth discussing and I'd love to hear ideas.

Socialism is dead. Get over it.Maybe we should move on to why you keep discussing pain meds.

Oxycontin would be the next step.

[35Pete]

Maybe we should move on to why you keep discussing pain meds.

Oxycontin would be the next step.

I wish.

At least you can crush those up and snort them like a good little junkie. LOL ;)

(Actually a severely herniated disk is ****ing hell! And I was on them for 2 weeks cause I re-injured it on 9/29 then REALLY ****ed it up super bad like a week later. But those pills are hell too. After that I begged for a needle in the spine. The epidural I had on Friday worked like a charm).

Dr's haven't ruled out surgery in the next month or two.

[Gibby]

My snide attitude in this thread is over why the hell are we even discussing this?

Socialism as a system has been discredited. It's an "ash heap" of history philosophy and system.

I'm serious. Move on to something more productive for God's sake. Like how to disassemble the gov't safety net and return power to the individual.

Perhaps how to instill charity as a highly desirable virtue so that a broad-based private charity network provides the emergency safety net.

These are topics worth discussing and I'd love to hear ideas.

Socialism is dead. Get over it.

Uh wrong, Soviet style communism is dead -well actually its in the ICU and on life support as it still exists in China, the PDR Korea, and Vietnam. Socialism is the primary system of economics in Europe and is thriving.

[35Pete]

Uh wrong, Soviet style communism is dead -well actually its in the ICU and on life support as it still exists in China, the PDR Korea, and Vietnam. Socialism is the primary system of economics in Europe and is thriving.

Ohh OK. :guy:

And you think OUR debt to GDP ratio is bad?


The Piper is coming Gibby. Sooner or later that system is going to implode.

ASH

HEAP

OF

HISTORY

[BuffaloRedleg]

I spent a couple of months in Munich a few years ago and I've never seen a richer city overall.

Lovely city, lovely architecture, clean, not one beater on the road.

Even the unemployed were comfortable.

What a disaster.

Have you been to the slums of Munich? The cities resemble more of a capitalist state than a Socialist state. Munich certainly is nice but its one of the nicest cities in the world so its tough to compare. Cologne aside, the rest of the major cities arent that great (I haven been to Berlin).

But like any country the reality lies not in the major cities but with the people outside of the cities. And for that matter its a very dull life. Again, I'm not saying its bad, but I dont know how the Germans I know get by without going crazy.

[35Pete]

Have you been to the slums of Munich? The cities resemble more of a capitalist state than a Socialist state. Munich certainly is nice but its one of the nicest cities in the world so its tough to compare. Cologne aside, the rest of the major cities arent that great (I haven been to Berlin).

But like any country the reality lies not in the major cities but with the people outside of the cities. And for that matter its a very dull life. Again, I'm not saying its bad, but I dont know how the Germans I know get by without going crazy.


I hate to sound abrasive but anyone that sees any remaining merits of socialism might find that boring life "just about right".

Shiva's not stupid. I don't know why he fancies a failed system. Shiva, is dull are boring about right for you?

[BuffaloRedleg]

I hate to sound abrasive but anyone that sees any remaining merits of socialism might find that boring life "just about right".

Shiva's not stupid. I don't know why he fancies a failed system. Shiva, is dull are boring about right for you?

well a lot of the young and middle-aged people i talk to here really dont like the system, but they certainly have no problem milking it. Its kind of funny. This one girl I saw for a while lived in a one room apartment and had been living there for 2 years, even though she worked as a jeweler which is a decent job. She had virtually nothing in there except books and some dvds. She even admitted how boring German life was and wanted to come to the US.

I think if many of you lived under the system after living in a capitalist system for a while you would see it in a much more negative light. I really honestly do miss capitalism and thats not a political bias.

[35Pete]

well a lot of the young and middle-aged people i talk to here really dont like the system, but they certainly have no problem milking it. Its kind of funny. This one girl I saw for a while lived in a one room apartment and had been living there for 2 years, even though she worked as a jeweler which is a decent job. She had virtually nothing in there except books and some dvds. She even admitted how boring German life was and wanted to come to the US.

I think if many of you lived under the system after living in a capitalist system for a while you would see it in a much more negative light. I really honestly do miss capitalism and thats not a political bias.

That's because you are not a lazy slob idiot and have aspirations.

Not bad qualities.

[TRIPLE P]

I don't really care about others. Is that simple enough?

[anEinherjer]

You own your own work until you try to sell it.

Then it becomes your money.

And we've already had the discussion about whether it's all your money.

And the fact is, until you get to the point where you can make money with your work, you've benefitted enormously from the work of others without having to pay for it.

I don't think you understand what "money" is, Shivverooski:

http://www.mises.org/money.asp

[Gibby]

Ohh OK. :guy:

And you think OUR debt to GDP ratio is bad?


The Piper is coming Gibby. Sooner or later that system is going to implode.

ASH

HEAP

OF

HISTORY


thats very reassuring, coming from a clown. :D:partysmilies:

[Gibby]

I don't really care about others. Is that simple enough?

Well I admire honesty.

[Crinoline]

Sweden, Canada, and Western Europe are governed by tyrants? Really? I agree that Marxism does lead to psychotic dictatorships but Socialism established the modern European welfare state and as I have alluded to countless times inoculated the western world against Bolshevism from the United States to post war Germany.

Where did I mention tyrants in my post? And wtf is Canada? I thought that was like Santa Claus and the North Pole, just something made up to make the U.S. feel better about itself.

I also don't believe a third party (in this case the government) has any moral authority to take from one person and give to another.

[kybillsfan]

Anyone realize we live in a socialist system here? How long do you think we last when china has us by the balls and our government continues to spend money that it prints. There is no effective oversight on the feds and eventually they will screw us all by leaving us with near worthless pieces of paper and a near dead economy.

Socialism steals my money, no cliche Shiva, thats just the way it is. I work using my labor which creates money for me. Socialism grants other people the right to my labor which is far from fair.

[sukie]

Where did I mention tyrants in my post? And wtf is Canada? I thought that was like Santa Claus and the North Pole, just something made up to make the U.S. feel better about itself.

I also don't believe a third party (in this case the government) has any moral authority to take from one person and give to another.

http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/robin-hood/10-errol-flynn.jpg

He begs to differ.

[JLB]

thats very reassuring, coming from a clown. :D:partysmilies:

what is that thing a toad? :guy:

[Ralonzo]

1) Socialism denies everything the founding of America was based on: that there are certain inalienable rights granted men by their Creator; that among these are the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit Of Happiness.

2) Socialist nations are invariably nations ruled by men, not laws. Despotism is the core of Socialism, with only the thinnest semantic veneer clung to for a pretense to legitimacy (I'm talking about you and your ilk, Hugo Chavez).

3) Speaking of 3CP, another of their dryly satirical sayings, along with "There is no pravda in Izvestia, and there is no izvestia in Pravda," was: "That which is not prohibited is compulsory." That's a decent summation of either Socialism, or slavery. Take your pick, there's not much to choose there.

[Gibby]

what is that thing a toad? :guy:

Ed Bighead from Rocko's Modern Life. He hates clowns, pete's av. :D

[35Pete]

Ed Bighead from Rocko's Modern Life. He hates clowns, pete's av. :D

The clown is an image enhancement. Allow me to say **** you to someone's stupid posts and do it with a smile.

I like to brighten every idiots day.

And since I can't reach the purveyors of that garbage via normal channels I thought the Krusty approach might work.

Or bribe them with a box of Crayolas if they stop posting junk.