Are ANY of socialism's ideas valid?

[shiva2999]

As I mentioned in another thread, I think a blend of socialism and capitalism is the best way to go if you wish to build a humane society that benefits all.

I think most, if not all lefties on the board would agree with me.

But as I also mentioned, calling anything socialistic in America is the same thing as calling something Satanic.

Why is it socialists will readily admit the benefits of capitalism but capitalists will not admit to ANY benefits of socialism?

Am I wrong?

If I am, I'd like to hear from the right some lefty ideas they think are worth while.

I bet you can't do it.

[pmoon6]

As I mentioned in another thread, I think a blend of socialism and capitalism is the best way to go if you wish to build a humane society that benefits all.

I think most, if not all lefties on the board would agree with me.

But as I also mentioned, calling anything socialistic in America is the same thing as calling something Satanic.

Why is it socialists will readily admit the benefits of capitalism but capitalists will not admit to ANY benefits of socialism?

Am I wrong?

If I am, I'd like to hear from the right some lefty ideas they think are worth while.

I bet you can't do it.Do I count?:D

[shiva2999]

Do I count?:D

Nope. Let the real righties embarrass themselves first.

[Jro]

None have worked over a long stretch of time.

[shiva2999]

None have worked over a long stretch of time.

See?

[Jro]

educate me shiva.

What does socialism have to offer?

[nehemiah]

:rofl:

jro is from kentucky.

[shiva2999]

educate me shiva.

What does socialism have to offer?

Sorry, but this isn't a shiva educates the ignorant thread.

It's a prove to shiva you aren't ignorant thread.

[Jro]

well, maybe in another thread then. When you have time.

[sukie]

Nothing about any socialistic ideals appeal to me.

[Gilly]

education. to a point. other than that the pickings of socialism are pretty weak

[kybillsfan]

Socialist admit market works? Follow Ms Clinton's campaign.

[kybillsfan]

:rofl:

jro is from kentucky.SOmething wrong with Kentucky?

[shiva2999]

education. to a point.

Excellent. Gilly steps up to the plate.

Is it socialism to try and provide the best education possible to ALL of our children?

Or should we leave educating the masses to the free market?

[Jro]

What good is an education when your living under a Socialist government?

That would be like wearing a rain coat in arizona. Just in case.

[Fortunesmith]

Most social programs (welfare, etc) that have been introduced in the US have created more freeloaders and corruption than actually helped people who legitimately need it. Socialism mixed with capitalism may work in places like Finland with a popluation of under 6 million people and a GNP nowhere in the vicinity of the US, but socialism like that would never work here in the US. Not with our vast cultural differences, massive GNP, and much larger population.

[Shama-Lama Ding Dong]

SOmething wrong with Kentucky?

Great jelly.

[sukie]

Only if tax funded education is the only option then that would be truly socialist, correct?

[Gilly]

sure all children should have opportunity and free market should provide different options ( sort of like how our system works now)

[ticatfan3]

Health care if the 2 is mixed. Right now what is killing our heath care is lefty ideology. During the last election the PC's wanted to bring in private care that you can use yout OHIP card to pay with. It would be more efficent and quicker service. You can get a MRI in a couple of days for $750 or wait a couple of months waiting to use your OHIP. But the left way of thinking is people should die 1st before someone can make a profit on health care.So right now the well off get the best in health care while the rest of us get the crumbs.

[shiva2999]

Only if tax funded education is the only option then that would be truly socialist, correct?

No.

Just like you can back fascism without wanting to kill 6 million Jews.

[pabstman]

IMO most capitalist don't buy into socailism because there is money to be made in everything, including the education that has been mentioned. Maybe capitalist belive that the money the gov takes from them would be better used if they invested in some privatly run companies that could provide the socialist service better and cheaper than the gov.

[sukie]

No.

Just like you can back fascism without wanting to kill 6 million Jews.

But is it still socialistic if all don't participate?

[shiva2999]

So far, all we have is education from Gilly.

How about security?

Why do we need police?

Why shouldn't we all be responsible for arranging our own security?

We all pay for the police but most of us prefer to avoid them.

Why can't we all have our own Blackwater bodyguards like they do in Iraq who can shoot the shit out of anyone that looks at them crosseyed?

Does that mean Iraq is more free than America?

[ticatfan3]

So far, all we have is education from Gilly.

How about security?

Why do we need police?

Why shouldn't we all be responsible for arranging our own security?

We all pay for the police but most of us prefer to avoid them.

Why can't we all have our own Blackwater bodyguards like they do in Iraq who can shoot the shit out of anyone that looks at them crosseyed?

Does that mean Iraq is more free than America?So you disagree with my take on health?

[shiva2999]

Health care if the 2 is mixed. Right now what is killing our heath care is lefty ideology. During the last election the PC's wanted to bring in private care that you can use yout OHIP card to pay with. It would be more efficent and quicker service. You can get a MRI in a couple of days for $750 or wait a couple of months waiting to use your OHIP. But the left way of thinking is people should die 1st before someone can make a profit on health care.So right now the well off get the best in health care while the rest of us get the crumbs.

Get more MRI's.

We have a budget surplus you know.

Write Steve. He's a reasonable guy.

He'll spring for it.

[sukie]

Great point for ticat that is , so far, unrebutted.

[uppy]

As I mentioned in another thread, I think a blend of socialism and capitalism is the best way to go if you wish to build a humane society that benefits all.

I think most, if not all lefties on the board would agree with me.

But as I also mentioned, calling anything socialistic in America is the same thing as calling something Satanic.

Why is it socialists will readily admit the benefits of capitalism but capitalists will not admit to ANY benefits of socialism?

Am I wrong?

If I am, I'd like to hear from the right some lefty ideas they think are worth while.

I bet you can't do it.

We already have socialism and capitalism in The USA one works the other
has been a disaster since the 60s

Public education
Public housing
food stamps
welfair
public transportation
Unions
Medicare
and in a few years SSI will be a mess.

It cant work and thats why we call it "Satanic"

[shiva2999]

We already have socialism and capitalism in The USA one works the other
has been a disaster since the 60s

Public education
Public housing
food stamps
welfair
public transportation
Unions
Medicare
and in a few years SSI will be a mess.

It cant work and thats why we call it "Satanic"

All of those programs performed a vital service Uppy.

Too bad they were sabotaged by fifth columnist right-wingers.

[kybillsfan]

All of those programs performed a vital service Uppy.

Too bad they were sabotaged by fifth columnist right-wingers.
All those programs suck because they are run by unaccountable bureacrats and used by small percentages of the people paying for them. If I by a new car, lets say a mustang have I done a good job if I paid 100k when the book price is about 30k? That is how gov operates.

[uppy]

All of those programs performed a vital service Uppy.

Too bad they were sabotaged by fifth columnist right-wingers.

All those programs make people depended on others and drain funds
away from productive people its called socialism.

The so called vital services can be provied by Charities for those that
can't afford them,and stop having kids if you don't have the money.

[г]

Here's my personal experience.

From complaining about a sore nut in my Doctor's office on a Thursday to MRI done & diagnosed: same afternoon
Surgery the following Monday
CT scan Friday the same week
RPT Lymph scan the week after that
RPT Lymphodectomy the same month

My wife had similar experiences @ 7-8 years later.

[shiva2999]

All those programs make people depended on others and drain funds
away from productive people its called socialism.


What's so special about being productive?

[uppy]

What's so special about being productive?

You make money to buy food and pay for housing....give it a shot some day

You will feel better about your self.

[г]

You make money to buy food and pay for housing.

Either you have very low standards or the fat HR bitch is keeping 50% of your pay LOL

[35Pete]

What's so special about being productive?

In my world you get to live.


:rofl:

[uppy]

Either you have very low standards or the fat HR bitch is keeping 50% of your pay LOL

The fat HR bitch pays me for after hour Service in a way ;)

Thats called capitalism

[shiva2999]

You make money to buy food and pay for housing....give it a shot some day

You will feel better about your self.

I already have food and housing and I don't need some shit job to get it.

I'm more free than you sucker.

[uppy]

I already have food and housing and I don't need some shit job to get it.

I'm more free than you sucker.

I enjoy work and being productive,if you like laying on that large ass all
day doing nothing more power to you.

Pride and honor have differen't meanings to people it seems.

[jimmifli]

Socialism provides economies of scale that can't be achieved with capitalism.

[shiva2999]

I enjoy work and being productive...

Capitalism like nothing better than a slave who loves his chains.

You should try being a free man some time Uppy.

It's a hoot.

[35Pete]

Shiva. Why are you championing the idle? Just to be inflammatory?

[kybillsfan]

Capitalism like nothing better than a slave who loves his chains.

You should try being a free man some time Uppy.

It's a hoot.Does your mom buy your food or am I?

[shiva2999]

Shiva. Why are you championing the idle? Just to be inflammatory?

Aside from the fact I am not "championing the idle"...

Why do you demonize the idle?

Are they not human beings too?

The last time I looked, being idle wasn't against the law.

[shiva2999]

Does your mom buy your food or am I?

I buy my own food.

But that's beside the point.

[Gibby]

Do I count?:D

Do I? Okay Shiva I'll take a stab at it. Socialism (and/or the fear of it), from purely a historical view, has eradicated the western world of child labor. It has led to universal education systems in all civilized nations. It has created safe working environments, limited work hours, introduced democracy into a slew of royalist and dictatorial states. It has created some form of medical care in every civilized state. It helped advance the cause of civil rights. It was the spine of a very successful, yes moonie they did go to far when they spit at veterans and called them murderers, peace movement. Oh did I mention that they are responsible for consumer and food safety (Upton Sinclair anyone?)

Some of you are going to be ignorant and say what have they done recently. Okay well recently they have spoken out against the patriot act, they have called for an end to this murderously foolish chaos in Iraq, and in the fourties to the eighties they inoculated western Europe against Marxism Leninism and this helped us to win the Cold War via containment theory. Currently they are fighting to keep the advances in civilization that they gave the world in the last century.

[shiva2999]

Do I? Okay Shiva I'll take a stab at it. Socialism (and/or the fear of it), from purely a historical view, has eradicated the western world of child labor. It has led to universal education systems in all civilized nations. It has created safe working environments, limited work hours, introduced democracy into a slew of royalist and dictatorial states. It has created some form of medical care in every civilized state. It helped advance the cause of civil rights. It was the spine of a very successful, yes moonie they did go to far when they spit at veterans and called them murderers, peace movement. Oh did I mention that they are responsible for consumer and food safety (Upton Sinclair anyone?)

Some of you are going to be ignorant and say what have they done recently. Okay well recently they have spoken out against the patriot act, they have called for an end to this murderously foolish chaos in Iraq, and in the fourties to the eighties they inoculated western Europe against Marxism Leninism and this helped us to win the Cold War via containment theory. Currently they are fighting to keep the advances in civilization that they gave the world in the last century.

Thank you.

You could also point out that the left led the battle against slavery and the disenfranchisement of women.

[anEinherjer]

So far, all we have is education from Gilly.

How about security?

Why do we need police?

Why shouldn't we all be responsible for arranging our own security?

We all pay for the police but most of us prefer to avoid them.

Why can't we all have our own Blackwater bodyguards like they do in Iraq who can shoot the shit out of anyone that looks at them crosseyed?

Does that mean Iraq is more free than America?


Seems to me anyone in America can pay for private security if they want.

[shiva2999]

Seems to me anyone in America can pay for private security if they want.

That doesn't mean you can stop paying for public security.

Why should you be forced to?

[ticatfan3]

Here's my personal experience.

From complaining about a sore nut in my Doctor's office on a Thursday to MRI done & diagnosed: same afternoon
Surgery the following Monday
CT scan Friday the same week
RPT Lymph scan the week after that
RPT Lymphodectomy the same month

My wife had similar experiences @ 7-8 years later.So you are saying that there is no problems up here with getting appointments and everyone that is, is full of shit.

[shiva2999]

So you are saying that there is no problems up here with getting appointments and everyone that is, is full of shit.

Have you had a problem?

[Gibby]

Have you had a problem?

no, not really but like his Merkun conservtive counterparts he likes whine with his cheez.

[shiva2999]

no, not really but like his Merkun conservtive counterparts he likes whine with his cheez.

I don't think the vast majority of Canadians would vote the healthcare system their favorite social program and Tommy Douglas, the father of that program, the greatest Canadian EVER if they had a problem with it.

Sure, in large social programs you can always find things to improve.

But you don't trash the entire project because some stupid woman in East Bum**** Ontario has to wait an inordinate amount of time because she's too lazy to make a couple of phone calls.

[ticatfan3]

Have you had a problem?3 1/2 months for a catscan.

[anEinherjer]

You lie ticat, everyone knows socialized healthcare kicks ass, Moore told us so!

[shiva2999]

3 1/2 months for a catscan.

LOL!

Dumbass. That's what you get for living in Dogpatch.

[ticatfan3]

LOL!

Dumbass. That's what you get for living in Dogpatch.Could not get into ottawa ,but got it in pembroke. I was suffering from tinnius and I suffered thru some dark times and then it got darker when they told me there was nothing I could do about it. But being of strong mind and I can be very stubborn ,I have gotten in over 5 years with it.

[Mouldsie]

I tore a ligament in my ankle at the end of May and couldnt get an x-ray, treatment, or PT until September here in the good 'ol US of A. As a result I have a buildup of scar tissue and they dont know yet if I will recover fully or need surgery. Track career is in jeopardy.

Now imagine if I couldnt even get help 5 months late and was screwed up for the rest of my life... Does that fit your view of a great society?
At the very least, our current system needs a makeover. Socialization or not.

[TigerJ]

I don't think there is anything wrong or inherently evil about socialism. By socialism, I mean a society where certain industries are nationalized (like health care, railroads and some basic industry) I don't mean the Soviet Union where virtually everything was tightly controlled by the government. That kind of society carries with it the seeds of its own destruction with the built in inefficiency of a work force with no incentive to do things better. I am open to the idea of a universal health insurance program administered by the government as long as the government can do it efficiently.

I freely admit that I am more comfortable with capitalism for the simple reason II've lived with it for 55 years. I claim no moral superiority for it. I'm sure I could live comfortably in a European nation which practiced the kind of blended economic system about which you are speaking, but the only way I would accept socialist ideas in this country is if advocates can show me one at a time which ones have clear advantages over our relatively capitalist system. BTW, I don't think the US has a completely pure capitalist system. There are a few things that are nationalized, such as the railroad retirement system.

[twosheds]

Most social programs (welfare, etc) that have been introduced in the US have created more freeloaders and corruption than actually helped people who legitimately need it. Socialism mixed with capitalism may work in places like Finland with a popluation of under 6 million people and a GNP nowhere in the vicinity of the US, but socialism like that would never work here in the US. Not with our vast cultural differences, massive GNP, and much larger population.

Divide and conquer.

[kybillsfan]

I don't think there is anything wrong or inherently evil about socialism. By socialism, I mean a society where certain industries are nationalized (like health care, railroads and some basic industry) I don't mean the Soviet Union where virtually everything was tightly controlled by the government. That kind of society carries with it the seeds of its own destruction with the built in inefficiency of a work force with no incentive to do things better. I am open to the idea of a universal health insurance program administered by the government as long as the government can do it efficiently.

I freely admit that I am more comfortable with capitalism for the simple reason II've lived with it for 55 years. I claim no moral superiority for it. I'm sure I could live comfortably in a European nation which practiced the kind of blended economic system about which you are speaking, but the only way I would accept socialist ideas in this country is if advocates can show me one at a time which ones have clear advantages over our relatively capitalist system. BTW, I don't think the US has a completely pure capitalist system. There are a few things that are nationalized, such as the railroad retirement system.
Yeah, you would just be living a whole lot more broke.

[twosheds]

Yeah, you would just be living a whole lot more broke.

Noone I know here is broke. You can live pretty well of the pay you get here. We also don't buy as much on credit as it is usual in the U.S. or Britain.

I have friends in the U.S. though who have to rely on junk food to make it through the month, and often can't afford to go to the doctor.

TigerJ is a pastor I think. He'd be well off living here, especially if you count the small costs for education and healthcare.

[kybillsfan]

Noone I know here is broke. You can live pretty well of the pay you get here. We also don't buy as much on credit as it is usual in the U.S. or Britain.

I have friends in the U.S. though who have to rely on junk food to make it through the month, and often can't afford to go to the doctor.

TigerJ is a pastor I think. He'd be well off living here, especially if you count the small costs for education and healthcare. People here spend to much on credit which is also the mentality of our government. Junk food cost more than regular food that isnt pre cooked. They could probably afford to go to the doctor if they did a little research. Most citie of any size (35k people or more) have doctors who take cash and is usually about the same as many peoples co-payment for their insurance. It all comes down to being a decent consumer when you purchase products or services which is something that many here have forgotten how to do.

[K-Gun]

You lie ticat, everyone knows socialized healthcare kicks ass, Moore told us so!

imo, the best healthcare option for health care in the US is a socialist/caitalist hybrid. Health care providers would be private for profit, while it would be paid for by the government through taxation. Americans would pay less than they are currently paying for healthcare, the quality would remain the same, denial of treatment from insurence companies would end, the leading cause of bankrupcy would be no more, and 45 million Americans currently without coverage would have it.

[kybillsfan]

imo, the best healthcare option for health care in the US is a socialist/caitalist hybrid. Health care providers would be private for profit, while it would be paid for by the government through taxation. Americans would pay less than they are currently paying for healthcare, the quality would remain the same, denial of treatment from insurence companies would end, the leading cause of bankrupcy would be no more, and 45 million Americans currently without coverage would have it.
It would cost me much more. I have catastrophic which is next to nothing and I pay cash when I go to the doctor which is rare because I dont tie up the hospitals and doctors by going for a runny nose and a 98.9 degree temperature. A big reason Healthcare is so high today is because the government has their nose in it way too much as it is. If they would get out of the protectionism racket then we would have very affordable healthcare.

[TigerJ]

Noone I know here is broke. You can live pretty well of the pay you get here. We also don't buy as much on credit as it is usual in the U.S. or Britain.

I have friends in the U.S. though who have to rely on junk food to make it through the month, and often can't afford to go to the doctor.

TigerJ is a pastor I think. He'd be well off living here, especially if you count the small costs for education and healthcare.

You are correct, sir. However, I am among the Americans who buy very little on credit. We used to buy some things with a credit card and then pay off the card at the end of the month. We just use a debit card now for most of our purchases. We just bought a used vehicle (2004 with 24,000 miles on it) and paid about a third of the cost in our downpayment. That is our only debt at the moment.

[35Pete]

imo, the best healthcare option for health care in the US is a socialist/caitalist hybrid. Health care providers would be private for profit, while it would be paid for by the government through taxation. Americans would pay less than they are currently paying for healthcare, the quality would remain the same, denial of treatment from insurence companies would end, the leading cause of bankrupcy would be no more, and 45 million Americans currently without coverage would have it.

Not true.

Infinite demand, rationing, decreased quality.

Work in health care and then make that comment after dealing with the Mastercaid crowd.

[K-Gun]

Not true.

Infinite demand, rationing, decreased quality.



NOT if the doctors and hospitals stay private, for profit.

[K-Gun]

It would cost me much more. I have catastrophic which is next to nothing and I pay cash when I go to the doctor which is rare because I dont tie up the hospitals and doctors by going for a runny nose and a 98.9 degree temperature. A big reason Healthcare is so high today is because the government has their nose in it way too much as it is. If they would get out of the protectionism racket then we would have very affordable healthcare.

How much do you pay per year? How much do you make a year? I'll bet under this system you pay less, only because 95% of Americans would pay less.

[kybillsfan]

How much do you pay per year? How much do you make a year? I'll bet under this system you pay less, only because 95% of Americans would pay less. I pay $48 a month and make. Under your system you force people to pay for healthcare that isnt as good and will cost more because of rising costs. Many people dont believe in using modern medicine yet they will be forced to pay for things they wont use.

[ticatfan3]

Problems are with the ''new'' doctors. I have a new one,(I am one of the lucky) the news one are taking 400 people and that is it. The ones that they are replacing had well over a 1000. And the new doctors interview you,so if you are a smoker or heavy drinker, good chance they will not take you on.

[Green Lantern]

I pay $48 a month and make. Under your system you force people to pay for healthcare that isnt as good and will cost more because of rising costs. Many people dont believe in using modern medicine yet they will be forced to pay for things they wont use.

Many people pay for a good number of things that they don't use by paying their taxes. Is this a valid argument for all such things?

[kybillsfan]

Many people pay for a good number of things that they don't use by paying their taxes. Is this a valid argument for all such things? Yes it is. I am a firm believer in people paying for the things they use. Why should I pay for a skatepark and golf course in my area that I will never use, infact 90% of the people in the area wont use. Tax dollars are treated as free money for bureacrats instead of other peoples hard earned money.

[Green Lantern]

Yes it is. I am a firm believer in people paying for the things they use. Why should I pay for a skatepark and golf course in my area that I will never use, infact 90% of the people in the area wont use. Tax dollars are treated as free money for bureacrats instead of other peoples hard earned money.


I will try and remember your views in the future.

[kybillsfan]

I will try and remember your views in the future. You think your gonna catch me in an inconsistancy?

[Green Lantern]

You think your gonna catch me in an inconsistancy?

Nope.

[K-Gun]

I pay $48 a month and make. Under your system you force people to pay for healthcare that isnt as good and will cost more because of rising costs. Many people dont believe in using modern medicine yet they will be forced to pay for things they wont use.

gee, what a great argument. I never drive, I want my money back from road taxes. I also believe in non-violence also, I want my money back from military spending.

[35Pete]

gee, what a great argument. I never drive, I want my money back from road taxes. I also believe in non-violence also, I want my money back from military spending.

See you make a point here.

Minimize to the bare bare bones federal spending and you won't have so many situations where people are forced to pay for crap that is an anethma to their conscience.

And yeah, I am a convert to "why are so many of my tax dollars going for the slaughter of people"?

It's a good point that you bring up. Sucks to pay for crap that you morally object to, doesn't it?

[kybillsfan]

gee, what a great argument. I never drive, I want my money back from road taxes. I also believe in non-violence also, I want my money back from military spending. SO why not have everything supplied from the government. Food has a greater yearly cost than healthcare yet people want healthcare instead of "free" food. Why not car and life insurance supplied through the gov? Most things can be supplied through the private sector much better than the government if the gov would just stay the hell out of the way. Roads could be paid for completly by toll roads and gas taxes, yet the feds still pump billions out of people who dont drive on the roads to pay for them. Charging people for unused services, many of which could be much less using the private sector, isnt fair at all and it is easily fixed by not taxing people to death and getting the gov out of the majority of the stuff they have their hands in. It is a proven FACT, when gov gets involved it will cost more. Healthcare isnt the exception. Just because the gov has always existed doesnt give it legitimacy.

[K-Gun]

SO why not have everything supplied from the government. Food has a greater yearly cost than healthcare yet people want healthcare instead of "free" food. Why not car and life insurance supplied through the gov? Most things can be supplied through the private sector much better than the government if the gov would just stay the hell out of the way. Roads could be paid for completly by toll roads and gas taxes, yet the feds still pump billions out of people who dont drive on the roads to pay for them. Charging people for unused services, many of which could be much less using the private sector, isnt fair at all and it is easily fixed by not taxing people to death and getting the gov out of the majority of the stuff they have their hands in. It is a proven FACT, when gov gets involved it will cost more. Healthcare isnt the exception. Just because the gov has always existed doesnt give it legitimacy.

it simply isn't a proven fact that government run healthcare costs more. in fact it is a proven fact that government run healthcare costs less, about 23% less.

insurence companies are controlling the market, they are jacking up prices and overhead for the sake of profit. cut the jackels out of the process and healthcare will be cheaper FOR ALL than it currently is for some.

[Green Lantern]

it simply isn't a proven fact that government run healthcare costs more. in fact it is a proven fact that government run healthcare costs less, about 23% less.

I tried this fact once before, no one believed me.

[kybillsfan]

it simply isn't a proven fact that government run healthcare costs more. in fact it is a proven fact that government run healthcare costs less, about 23% less.

insurence companies are controlling the market, they are jacking up prices and overhead for the sake of profit. cut the jackels out of the process and healthcare will be cheaper FOR ALL than it currently is for some.You are comparing an all out government run system to a system that is half run by government. If we got insurance companies and gov out of it, especially gov then there would be no comparison. Nurses could do much more if their hands werent tied by the state which would cost us less and the FDA having their hands in drug companies pocket makes drugs cost much, much more. Insurance companies are mandated to carry certain people and treat different illnesses. My dad has to have insurance that covers alcoholism, he doesnt drink but he still has to pay for it.Quality is proven to go down as well.

[kybillsfan]

I would love to see the stats on 23% less cost for universal coverage.

[K-Gun]

You are comparing an all out government run system to a system that is half run by government. If we got insurance companies and gov out of it, especially gov then there would be no comparison. Nurses could do much more if their hands werent tied by the state which would cost us less and the FDA having their hands in drug companies pocket makes drugs cost much, much more. Insurance companies are mandated to carry certain people and treat different illnesses. My dad has to have insurance that covers alcoholism, he doesnt drink but he still has to pay for it.Quality is proven to go down as well.

no, i am talking about a system that is run by the doctors in private practice and paid for by the public. what i'm talking about isn't socialized medicine. socialized meicine is when the doctors are the employees of the government. The VA system is socialized medicine, medicare is not.

[kybillsfan]

no, i am talking about a system that is run by the doctors in private practice and paid for by the public. what i'm talking about isn't socialized medicine. socialized meicine is when the doctors are the employees of the government. You are talking about single payer which is essentially the same thing. The government is paying the employees if they are paying all the bills. Our quality will be in the gutter and it will cost more for most people.

Would you be in favor of forcing people to purchase healthcare if that could be done at a good cost?

[K-Gun]

You are talking about single payer which is essentially the same thing. The government is paying the employees if they are paying all the bills. Our quality will be in the gutter and it will cost more for most people.

Would you be in favor of forcing people to purchase healthcare if that could be done at a good cost?

we force people who have cars to buy car insurence, why not force people who have bodies to pay for healthcare?

Just wait, in the next 5 years you'll have something happen that has to be treated and you'll get stuck with a $20,000 bill.

btw, in a single payer system taht retains private practice, the docs negotiate the market value of their service. It is capitalism on their end.

There is nothing that would decrease quality, other than wind bags with scare tactics. and it will be cheaper for 95% of people.

[kybillsfan]

we force people who have cars to buy car insurence, why not force people who have bodies to pay for healthcare?

Just wait, in the next 5 years you'll have something happen that has to be treated and you'll get stuck with a $20,000 bill.

btw, in a single payer system taht retains private practice, the docs negotiate the market value of their service. It is capitalism on their end.

There is nothing that would decrease quality, other than wind bags with scare tactics. and it will be cheaper for 95% of people.
We force people to have car insurance so we should force people to have health insurance. Two wrongs dont make a right. If you look, in states where insurance isnt mandatory rates are much, much lower.

I have catastrophic isurance, something everyone should have so that $20,000 isnt put on me. Quality does decrease, it is very well documented and for people who have similar circumstances as me will be paying much more. What is wrong with paying cash for regular stuff and having catastrophic for the big stuff? That would be much, much cheaper (FACT) than the gov pulling the strings. People wouldnt be abusing the services like they do now and like they would with even more "free" healthcare and the doctors wouldnt have the stacks of paperwork for each patient that they have from the ins companies and the gov.

[Green Lantern]

We force people to have car insurance so we should force people to have health insurance. Two wrongs dont make a right. If you look, in states where insurance isnt mandatory rates are much, much lower.

I have catastrophic isurance, something everyone should have so that $20,000 isnt put on me. Quality does decrease, it is very well documented and for people who have similar circumstances as me will be paying much more. What is wrong with paying cash for regular stuff and having catastrophic for the big stuff? That would be much, much cheaper (FACT) than the gov pulling the strings. People wouldnt be abusing the services like they do now and like they would with even more "free" healthcare and the doctors wouldnt have the stacks of paperwork for each patient that they have from the ins companies and the gov.

First, when I lived in NM, my insurance was the same as it is in NY. That is because my rates were cheaper but I had to pay an extra "uninsured motorist" premium in case someone without insurance hit me. That levelled out my rates.

Second, when I got insurance, I did not go to the doctor more often.

[K-Gun]

We force people to have car insurance so we should force people to have health insurance. Two wrongs dont make a right. If you look, in states where insurance isnt mandatory rates are much, much lower.

I have catastrophic isurance, something everyone should have so that $20,000 isnt put on me. Quality does decrease, it is very well documented and for people who have similar circumstances as me will be paying much more. What is wrong with paying cash for regular stuff and having catastrophic for the big stuff? That would be much, much cheaper (FACT) than the gov pulling the strings. People wouldnt be abusing the services like they do now and like they would with even more "free" healthcare and the doctors wouldnt have the stacks of paperwork for each patient that they have from the ins companies and the gov.


WRONG, the average employed American pays $3,000 for out of pocket expenses. The most the richest Canadian pays is $900 for healthcare.

In your tax bracket, you'd pay $200 for health insurence in Canada. How much did you say you pay again?

[jimmifli]

The debate about health care costs is silly. It was already answered in my first post in this thread.

Socialism provides economies of scale that can't be achieved with capitalism.

Capitalism needs competition. This divides the market and reduces the opportunity for economies of scale.

What pushes humanity forward is productivity. We should strive for more productivity not a specific form of government. In some (rare) cases the ideals of socialism lead to higher productivity.

[Blue_Bandana]

If you want to truly work towards becoming a true capitalist society - you might want to start by cutting off funding to some of the biggest socialist organizations in the country. Stop socializing the cost of the Armed Forces, Coast Guard, Firefighters and Police. Get rid of the costly Corporate Welfare programs.

Stop socializing the high tech research and development costs - that are run through the space and military sector- are taxpayer paid and then the products are passed on to certain commercial and industrial groups that repackage the technology and sell the product for a profit.

Don't socialize the cost of bailing out the financial industry and their shareholders, that benefited from the sub-prime con. Who do you think is going to have to cover the cost of the 100's of billions of dollars in liquidity being injected into the system to keep those deadbeats afloat.

[shiva2999]

What pushes humanity forward is productivity.

Dangerously close to Randian speechifying.

What do you mean by productivity?

And what do you mean by "pushing humanity forward"?

[kybillsfan]

WRONG, the average employed American pays $3,000 for out of pocket expenses. The most the richest Canadian pays is $900 for healthcare.

In your tax bracket, you'd pay $200 for health insurence in Canada. How much did you say you pay again?
You are comparing a poorly run socialist system in the US to a socialist system that goes a little further in Canada. What I pay now would significantly drop if the government would get their nose out of it.

Are there any unintended consequences to going to a socialist system in your view? What about intended consequences?

[kybillsfan]

First, when I lived in NM, my insurance was the same as it is in NY. That is because my rates were cheaper but I had to pay an extra "uninsured motorist" premium in case someone without insurance hit me. That levelled out my rates.

Second, when I got insurance, I did not go to the doctor more often. I lived in Tennessee when there was no law for insurance and it was significantly cheaper than KY where it was mandatory even with the coverage for uninsured which most states mandate that insurance have for their minimum coverage to a certain extent.

[jimmifli]

Dangerously close to Randian speechifying.

What do you mean by productivity?

And what do you mean by "pushing humanity forward"?
Productivity doesn't really need an explanation, does it? I'm sure you grow all your own food? No? Neither do most people on this planet. That's very different from a century ago. That's what I mean by productivity.

When people are freed from survival tasks and allowed to expand in specialization and knowledge that "pushes society forward".

Don't get your back up, the fact that a few people can provide for many is a remarkable privilege of our society.

[Green Lantern]

I lived in Tennessee when there was no law for insurance and it was significantly cheaper than KY where it was mandatory even with the coverage for uninsured which most states mandate that insurance have for their minimum coverage to a certain extent.


In NY you cannot be uninsured without losing your registration. DMV is informed by your insurance company if you miss an insurance payment.

[K-Gun]

You are comparing a poorly run socialist system in the US to a socialist system that goes a little further in Canada. What I pay now would significantly drop if the government would get their nose out of it.

Are there any unintended consequences to going to a socialist system in your view? What about intended consequences?

You're either terribly misinformed, or you're delusional.

Canadians spend half of what Americans spend per year on healthcare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

I'll get back to you on the rest.