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JLB
June 10th, 2007, 9:53:30 PM
http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/6/10/212452.shtml?s=ic

Anti-death penalty forces have gained momentum in the past few years, with a moratorium in Illinois, court disputes over lethal injection in more than a half-dozen states and progress toward outright abolishment in New Jersey.

The steady drumbeat of DNA exonerations — pointing out flaws in the justice system — has weighed against capital punishment. The moral opposition is loud, too, echoed in Europe and the rest of the industrialized world, where all but a few countries banned executions years ago.

What gets little notice, however, is a series of academic studies over the last half-dozen years that claim to settle a once hotly debated argument — whether the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder. The analyses say yes. They count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer.

The reports have horrified death penalty opponents and several scientists, who vigorously question the data and its implications.

So far, the studies have had little impact on public policy. New Jersey's commission on the death penalty this year dismissed the body of knowledge on deterrence as "inconclusive."

But the ferocious argument in academic circles could eventually spread to a wider audience, as it has in the past.

"Science does really draw a conclusion. It did. There is no question about it," said Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver. "The conclusion is there is a deterrent effect."

A 2003 study he co-authored, and a 2006 study that re-examined the data, found that each execution results in five fewer homicides, and commuting a death sentence means five more homicides. "The results are robust, they don't really go away," he said. "I oppose the death penalty. But my results show that the death penalty (deters) — what am I going to do, hide them?"

Statistical studies like his are among a dozen papers since 2001 that capital punishment has deterrent effects. They all explore the same basic theory — if the cost of something (be it the purchase of an apple or the act of killing someone) becomes too high, people will change their behavior (forego apples or shy from murder).
To explore the question, they look at executions and homicides, by year and by state or county, trying to tease out the impact of the death penalty on homicides by accounting for other factors, such as unemployment data and per capita income, the probabilities of arrest and conviction, and more.

Among the conclusions:


Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per execution at three, five and 14).

The Illinois moratorium on executions in 2000 led to 150 additional homicides over four years following, according to a 2006 study by professors at the University of Houston.

Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.
In 2005, there were 16,692 cases of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter nationally. There were 60 executions.

The studies' conclusions drew a philosophical response from a well-known liberal law professor, University of Chicago's Cass Sunstein. A critic of the death penalty, in 2005 he co-authored a paper titled "Is capital punishment morally required?"

"If it's the case that executing murderers prevents the execution of innocents by murderers, then the moral evaluation is not simple," he told The Associated Press. "Abolitionists or others, like me, who are skeptical about the death penalty haven't given adequate consideration to the possibility that innocent life is saved by the death penalty."

Sunstein said that moral questions aside, the data needs more study.

Critics of the findings have been vociferous.

Some claim that the pro-deterrent studies made profound mistakes in their methodology, so their results are untrustworthy. Another critic argues that the studies wrongly count all homicides, rather than just those homicides where a conviction could bring the death penalty. And several argue that there are simply too few executions each year in the United States to make a judgment.

"We just don't have enough data to say anything," said Justin Wolfers, an economist at the Wharton School of Business who last year co-authored a sweeping critique of several studies, and said they were "flimsy" and appeared in "second-tier journals."

"This isn't left vs. right. This is a nerdy statistician saying it's too hard to tell," Wolfers said. "Within the advocacy community and legal scholars who are not as statistically adept, they will tell you it's still an open question. Among the small number of economists at leading universities whose bread and butter is statistical analysis, the argument is finished."

Several authors of the pro-deterrent reports said they welcome criticism in the interests of science, but said their work is being attacked by opponents of capital punishment for their findings, not their flaws.

"Instead of people sitting down and saying 'let's see what the data shows,' it's people sitting down and saying 'let's show this is wrong,'" said Paul Rubin, an economist and co-author of an Emory University study. "Some scientists are out seeking the truth, and some of them have a position they would like to defend."

The latest arguments replay a 1970s debate that had an impact far beyond academic circles.

Then, economist Isaac Ehrlich had also concluded that executions deterred future crimes. His 1975 report was the subject of mainstream news articles and public debate, and was cited in papers before the U.S. Supreme Court arguing for a reversal of the court's 1972 suspension of executions. (The court, in 1976, reinstated the death penalty.)

Ultimately, a panel was set up by the National Academy of Sciences which decided that Ehrlich's conclusions were flawed. But the new pro-deterrent studies haven't gotten that kind of scrutiny.

At least not yet. The academic debate, and the larger national argument about the death penalty itself — with questions about racial and economic disparities in its implementation — shows no signs of fading away.

Steven Shavell, a professor of law and economics at Harvard Law School and co-editor-in-chief of the American Law and Economics Review, said in an e-mail exchange that his journal intends to publish several articles on the statistical studies on deterrence in an upcoming issue.

© 2007 Associated Press.

Gibby
June 10th, 2007, 9:57:38 PM
Oh joy newsmax is for the death penalty, amazing that would be like me saying I support Barak Obama. Wow. Seriously J, I hold suspect anything in news maxipad unless verified elsewhere.

nehemiah
June 10th, 2007, 9:57:44 PM
:rofl:

let's see the articles.

link that shit, homie.

shiva2999
June 10th, 2007, 9:58:05 PM
How many murders does executing innocent people deter?

Gibby
June 10th, 2007, 10:01:05 PM
:rofl:

let's see the articles.

link that shit, homie.

well said, I hold everyone to the same standards. No blogs, no message boards, no advocacy websites, no non mainstream media sources, no personal emails, no shit you lumped together.

JLB
June 10th, 2007, 10:03:44 PM
Oh joy newsmax is for the death penalty, amazing that would be like me saying I support Barak Obama. Wow. Seriously J, I hold suspect anything in news maxipad unless verified elsewhere.

It's a story off the Associated Press wire.

Just as many CNN stories are.

Green Lantern
June 10th, 2007, 10:04:13 PM
Majority of Americans favour death penalty

WASHINGTON - The majority of Americans support the death penalty but nearly 40 per cent think their moral beliefs would disqualify them from serving on a jury in a capital trial, a poll showed on Saturday.

Conducted for the Death Penalty Information Centre, a group that opposes capital punishment, the poll showed 62 per cent of those surveyed support executing convicted murderers.

But 39 per cent of the 1,000 people questioned in the survey, which had a margin of error of 3.1 per cent, said they thought they would be disqualified from serving in a jury in a capital murder case because of their moral beliefs.

"That was higher than we had expected," the information centre's director Richard Dieter said in an interview...

Since 1973, 124 people have been released from death row after evidence of their innocence was uncovered.


The survey showed a majority of people did not think a possible death sentence would deter potential murderers.

The number of death sentences and actual executions in the United States has been declining, according to the Death Penalty Information Centre.

The 38 states that have the death penalty executed 53 people in 2006, down from 98 in 1999, it says.

Experts have said the drop in the number of executions to a 30-year low in 2006 was due in part to eroding support for capital punishment...

...China and five other nations -- Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan and the United States -- accounted for more than 90 per cent of judicial executions in 2006, Amnesty said in a report earlier this year.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=500838&objectid=10444690

JLB
June 10th, 2007, 10:05:53 PM
:rofl:

let's see the articles.

link that shit, homie.

Your reading the story in it's entirety.
2007 Associated Press

Gibby
June 10th, 2007, 10:11:05 PM
shiznit, it still shows that most scholars oppose the death penalty, so tell me J why are you for it? Seriously doesn't killing the condemned make just one more death?

JLB
June 10th, 2007, 10:19:32 PM
shiznit, it still shows that most scholars oppose the death penalty, so tell me J why are you for it? Seriously doesn't killing the condemned make just one more death?

Did you see something that said I was for it.
I am for life the death penalty is the easy exit.
There can always be exceptions to every situation.

JLB
June 11th, 2007, 10:45:10 PM
How many murders does executing innocent people deter?

Deaths would increase.

ckg68
June 11th, 2007, 11:25:16 PM
:censor:loads of people die every day,not just in America but around the world,in a violent manner.

Using the death penalty to kill everyone who murders someone else will NEVER stop that cycle. And don't give me the :bs: line that "oh,it means that person will never kill again." There will always be someone else ready and willing to take their place. Check that: THOUSANDS will take that person's place.

Thus,the cycle goes on.

35Pete
June 11th, 2007, 11:33:00 PM
Your reading the story in it's entirety.
2007 Associated Press

TOS violation. Please don't do that. Thanks,.

JLB
June 11th, 2007, 11:38:20 PM
No problem!

anEinherjer
June 12th, 2007, 7:07:57 AM
Studies do seem to show that the death penalty DOES serve as a deterrent. I guess I'll have to stop arguing that point.

But you know what else deters crime?

- 24 hour martial law.
- Mandatory ID checkpoints every few blocks in the inner city.
- Police checkpoints at on/off ramps on the interstates.
- No-knock raids by SWAT teams on innocents' homes (hi MPW! :D).

г
June 12th, 2007, 7:42:46 AM
http://www.celebrityimpersonators.com/cp/billyraycyrus.jpg

'Ah likes me some death penalty'

nehemiah
June 12th, 2007, 8:34:49 AM
Your reading the story in it's entirety.
2007 Associated Pressi don't need newsmax to tell me what an academic article says.

post the original.

pmoon6
June 12th, 2007, 8:40:54 AM
I throw the BS flag on this one.

Everything I've ever read says the death penalty doesn't deter shit.

That said, I think the death penalty should only be used in extreme cases like Bundy, Gacy or Manson.

TRIPLE P
June 12th, 2007, 8:47:37 AM
Well...technically the death penalty probably does prevent some murders.. if everyone was givin the death penalty right after birth there would never be any murders. or rapes. or people to murder or rape.

Ru
June 12th, 2007, 8:56:27 AM
Speaking of dumb or mentally weak willed, why is it that it's the people who are the most religious that are the ones favoring the death penalty? It's a dumb concept, and it's not wonder why we're one of the only countries to still carry out this idiotic practice.

TRIPLE P
June 12th, 2007, 8:58:58 AM
Speaking of dumb or mentally weak willed, why is it that it's the people who are the most religious that are the ones favoring the death penalty? It's a dumb concept, and it's not wonder why we're one of the only countries to still carry out this idiotic practice.

because they are insane. and vengeful....missing out on all that fun you get to have not giving a **** about going to hell makes you really pissed off.

JLB
June 12th, 2007, 9:23:47 AM
i don't need newsmax to tell me what an academic article says.

post the original.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DEATH_PENALTY_DETERRENCE?SITE=NDBIS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Studies Say Death Penalty Deters Crime

By ROBERT TANNER
AP National Writer

Anti-death penalty forces have gained momentum in the past few years, with a moratorium in Illinois, court disputes over lethal injection in more than a half-dozen states and progress toward outright abolishment in New Jersey.

The steady drumbeat of DNA exonerations - pointing out flaws in the justice system - has weighed against capital punishment. The moral opposition is loud, too, echoed in Europe and the rest of the industrialized world, where all but a few countries banned executions years ago.

What gets little notice, however, is a series of academic studies over the last half-dozen years that claim to settle a once hotly debated argument - whether the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder. The analyses say yes. They count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer.

anEinherjer
June 12th, 2007, 9:50:42 AM
JLB, I think nehemiah wants a link to the actual academic study (which was actually a study of various other studies, if I read it right yesterday).

Good luck finding that shit, nehemiah. You know how much of a pain that can be.

JLB
June 12th, 2007, 9:56:02 AM
JLB, I think nehemiah wants a link to the actual academic study (which was actually a study of various other studies, if I read it right yesterday).

Good luck finding that shit, nehemiah. You know how much of a pain that can be.

I did my very best he's on his own if that's what he wanted.:rockon:

emo
June 12th, 2007, 10:04:24 AM
I actually just wrote a 34 page paper on the death penalty, and while the overwhelming majority are in favor of it, the same people polled dropped significantly, to around 40% when they were given the option of death or lwop(life without parol) and the numbers driopped again to 29% when ti was death v. lwop + restitution to the victim's family.

the idea that we are in favor of the death penalty int eh abstract is not far fetched. It's rooted in tradition and a sense of moral obligation. However, the actual act is so repugnant that no less than 13 people are involved in lethat injections in texas, the wardens refer to them as links in the chain and they break them up because they dont' want any one person to assume more responsibility than another.

as for the studies that show how the death penalty saves lives, I dont' know. I don't care. if it is such a repulsive act that you can't have one person do it, and it has been that way throughout the history of the death penalty in america, then that's all I need to know that I'm against it.

TRIPLE P
June 12th, 2007, 10:06:26 AM
as for the studies that show how the death penalty saves lives, I dont' know. I don't care. if it is such a repulsive act that you can't have one person do it, and it has been that way throughout the history of the death penalty in america, then that's all I need to know that I'm against it.

You'ed think there would be a line out the door for executioner sign-ups.....

emo
June 12th, 2007, 10:09:55 AM
You'ed think there would be a line out the door for executioner sign-ups.....

maybe, I don't think the moral compass is that far askew

TRIPLE P
June 12th, 2007, 10:17:16 AM
maybe, I don't think the moral compass is that far askew

How many do you really need. It would be a natural progression for the kids who skin squirrels alive.

Green Lantern
June 12th, 2007, 5:25:33 PM
The death penalty is a deterent for the person you've killed. That was the original point.

nehemiah
June 12th, 2007, 5:36:15 PM
JLB, I think nehemiah wants a link to the actual academic study (which was actually a study of various other studies, if I read it right yesterday).

Good luck finding that shit, nehemiah. You know how much of a pain that can be.while i do appreciate jlb's finding the original non-newsmax article... yes, i would like to see the academic journal article.

i'm on the case. i will report back if i find 'er.

г
June 12th, 2007, 5:40:44 PM
How many do you really need. It would be a natural progression for the kids who skin squirrels alive.

or disbarred dentists

nehemiah
June 12th, 2007, 5:41:13 PM
btw - notice the obfuscation in the article?

"We just don't have enough data to say anything," said Justin Wolfers, an economist at the Wharton School of Business who last year co-authored a sweeping critique of several studies, and said they were "flimsy" and appeared in "second-tier journals."

"This isn't left vs. right. This is a nerdy statistician saying it's too hard to tell," Wolfers said. "Within the advocacy community and legal scholars who are not as statistically adept, they will tell you it's still an open question. Among the small number of economists at leading universities whose bread and butter is statistical analysis, the argument is finished."

which studies did he critique? :dunno: pro-death penalty or anti-death penalty?