What Makes Me Cheer on Palestinian Suicide Bombers?

[SpikedLemonade]

Read this...

"Israel’s backers also portray it as a country that has sought peace at every turn and shown great restraint even when provoked. The Arabs, by contrast, are said to have acted with great wickedness. Yet on the ground, Israel’s record is not distinguishable from that of its opponents. Ben-Gurion acknowledged that the early Zionists were far from benevolent towards the Palestinian Arabs, who resisted their encroachments – which is hardly surprising, given that the Zionists were trying to create their own state on Arab land. In the same way, the creation of Israel in 1947-48 involved acts of ethnic cleansing, including executions, massacres and rapes by Jews, and Israel’s subsequent conduct has often been brutal, belying any claim to moral superiority. Between 1949 and 1956, for example, Israeli security forces killed between 2700 and 5000 Arab infiltrators, the overwhelming majority of them unarmed. The IDF murdered hundreds of Egyptian prisoners of war in both the 1956 and 1967 wars, while in 1967, it expelled between 100,000 and 260,000 Palestinians from the newly conquered West Bank, and drove 80,000 Syrians from the Golan Heights.

During the first intifada, the IDF distributed truncheons to its troops and encouraged them to break the bones of Palestinian protesters. The Swedish branch of Save the Children estimated that ‘23,600 to 29,900 children required medical treatment for their beating injuries in the first two years of the intifada.’ Nearly a third of them were aged ten or under. The response to the second intifada has been even more violent, leading Ha’aretz to declare that ‘the IDF . . . is turning into a killing machine whose efficiency is awe-inspiring, yet shocking.’ The IDF fired one million bullets in the first days of the uprising. Since then, for every Israeli lost, Israel has killed 3.4 Palestinians, the majority of whom have been innocent bystanders; the ratio of Palestinian to Israeli children killed is even higher (5.7:1). It is also worth bearing in mind that the Zionists relied on terrorist bombs to drive the British from Palestine, and that Yitzhak Shamir, once a terrorist and later prime minister, declared that ‘neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat.’

The Palestinian resort to terrorism is wrong but it isn’t surprising. The Palestinians believe they have no other way to force Israeli concessions. As Ehud Barak once admitted, had he been born a Palestinian, he ‘would have joined a terrorist organisation’."

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

Does that really make you feel sympathy for Jewish victims?

Look I wish there was NO violence, but you really need to look at what is happening in the Middle East with more objectivity rathetr than simply calling every brown person seeking justice a "terrorist".

[Green Lantern]

Does that really make you feel sympathy for Jewish victims?

Look I wish there was NO violence, but you really need to look at what is happening in the Middle East with more objectivity rathetr than simply calling every brown person seeking justice a "terrorist".

...


7197

[uppy]

Spike its Israel’s land and has been before JC was around 2007 years ago.The

arabs have all the land they need to provide for a Palestinian state.If they

want peace all that needs to be done is to make one with the lands they

hold now.This is not a hard issue to resolve if the arabs wish for peace.

[SpikedLemonade]

Spike its Israel’s land and has been before JC was around 2007 years ago.The

arabs have all the land they need to provide for a Palestinian state.If they

want peace all that needs to be done is to make one with the lands they

hold now.This is not a hard issue to resolve if the arabs wish for peace.

Suck my big uncircumcised penis.

That's complete bullshit.

Read this...

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

...and then come back and discuss.

[Green Lantern]

Spike its Israel’s land and has been before JC was around 2007 years ago.The

arabs have all the land they need to provide for a Palestinian state.If they

want peace all that needs to be done is to make one with the lands they

hold now.This is not a hard issue to resolve if the arabs wish for peace.

If you want to go that far back, what about the people they killed to get the land back then; wasn't it their land first?

[SpikedLemonade]

If you want to go that far back, what about the people they killed to get the land back then; wasn't it their land first?

Of course.

Aqua read the link I provided from the Israel Lobby and it explains Uppy's fluffying.

I didn't realize that Shiva was right about the very sick Chrstian Right who believes Israel has to exist in an expanded fashion in order for GOD to be happy.

Let's get rid of all of these sick religious zealots.

We see them on in Iran and we condemn them, but we have many in the US among us.

[JLB]

Suck my big uncircumcised penis.
That's complete bullshit.

You said it :rofl:

[Green Lantern]

Of course.

Aqua read the link I provided from the Israel Lobby and it explains Uppy's fluffying.

I didn't realize that Shiva was right about the very sick Chrstian Right who believes Israel has to exist in an expanded fashion in order for GOD to be happy.

Let's get rid of all of these sick religious zealots.

We see them on in Iran and we condemn them, but we have many in the US among us.


As the Anti-Zionist Jews have noted. G-d told them that G-d would return them to the promised land after G-d had determined that they were ready. Jews believing that they have a say in how long they should be separated from their lands is an affront to G-d and they are only causing more trauma and discord the longer they defy the will of G-d.

Many in America and Europe believe, since the Second Coming cannot arrive until the conversion of the Jews, that we should do what we can to set the table for this event.

[uppy]

Of course.

Aqua read the link I provided from the Israel Lobby and it explains Uppy's fluffying.

I didn't realize that Shiva was right about the very sick Chrstian Right who believes Israel has to exist in an expanded fashion in order for GOD to be happy.

Let's get rid of all of these sick religious zealots.

We see them on in Iran and we condemn them, but we have many in the US among us.

Spike, I will read the link but I also ask you to have an open mind.

Let's get rid of all of these sick religious zealots

What does this mean....do you wish to rid the world of people like me?

Should we get rid of people that belive in God...you do realize this makes

you sound like a ass-wipe.

[gilchristfan]

Spike its Israel’s land and has been before JC was around 2007 years ago.

It was Rome's land at the time. Don't you remember Caesar's census?

Therefore, it goes back to Rome.

Check it out:

http://www.bethlehem.edu/images/archive/2005/2005_075.jpg

The Pope's working out a sale-leaseback deal for the West Bank with Palestinian President Abbas as we speak.

[uppy]

The combination of unwavering support for Israel and the related effort to spread ‘democracy’ throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardised not only US security but that of much of the rest of the world.

For this reason we should let the Islamic people wipe out the Jews ?

[Green Lantern]

For this reason we should let the Islamic people wipe out the Jews ?

Those are the only two options? Unconditional support for Israel or let Islamic people wipe out the Jews?

Hmmm... We seem to be at a crossroads...

7198

[SpikedLemonade]

What does this mean....do you wish to rid the world of people like me?

Should we get rid of people that belive in God....

Uppy, I also believe in GOD, but I'm NOT advocating Old Testament themes to support the murder and occupation of people.

Read the New Testament as well.

[SpikedLemonade]

For this reason we should let the Islamic people wipe out the Jews ?


No.

Just butt out and see if when Israel sees that it doesn't have a BIG dick -- just borrowing America's -- that it behaves more reasonably.

[ticatfan3]

No.

Just butt out and see if when Israel sees that it doesn't have a BIG dick -- just borrowing America's -- that it behaves more reasonably.Probably a slaughter, but it seems that is what you want. So what happens here with the natives and land claims, we hand over land to the mohawks or who ever to settle a land claim. Now what happens when a huron shows up and says that land was theirs till the mohawks came and took it away.Now is it then given to him, until a algouquin shows up and say that land was ours till the hurons took it from us. Do you even realize what a mess we would really have.

[nehemiah]

seriously.

who gives a **** about israel OR palestine?

be honest.

[deconstruction]

Looks guys, I'm more with Uppy on this one (surprise). Though I do think that its a major mistake for Israel not to offer some form of political legitimacy to the Palestinians (I know, the Arab states should be doing the same but are not), it is not acceptable to blow up random children as part of your military campaign for justice (an action which Israel is equally culpable of by the way).

[dilbert]

...


7197

Yeah, another wow.

[TRIPLE P]

seriously.

who gives a **** about israel OR palestine?

be honest.

Not me.

[shiva2999]

What does this mean....do you wish to rid the world of people like me?

Should we get rid of people that belive in God...

Don't tempt me.

[dilbert]

Don't tempt me.


Heaven forbid you say something rude, mean, nasty and/or politically incorrect!

[anEinherjer]

I'm with Shiva concerning the "temptation"....

[Ru]

I'll just post my usual:

**** Isreal!!!

I don't care if it gets wiped off the face of the Earth tomorrow. They are the cause of the problems not the victims.

[Meathead]

the official meatheads soothsayer of the day prediction© is:

timeout in spikes future

ty ty throw money

http://www.cl.utoledo.edu/inf/exhibit/gypsy/images/Gypsy%20fortune%20teller.jpg
(actual picture of meathead)

[Meathead]

dont you think cheering on suicide bombers is a bit overboard. i dont believe that

[uppy]

I'm with Shiva concerning the "temptation"....


Don't tempt me.



Heaven forbid you say something rude, mean, nasty and/or politically incorrect!


http://kurde.pl/gfx/m/mooning.jpg

[shiva2999]

http://kurde.pl/gfx/m/mooning.jpg

You can wiggle your ass at me all you want, I'll never turn Republican.

[SpikedLemonade]

I'll just post my usual:

**** Isreal!!!

I don't care if it gets wiped off the face of the Earth tomorrow. They are the cause of the problems not the victims.

I agree with you in general, but the US's support of Israel may be th eeven larger problem.

I want to fully understand that relationship.

[dilbert]

Yeah, who cares if an entire nation, including women and children, gets wiped off the face of the Earth!!!!!!!!!

People are unbeleivable. We have one person wanting segregation so he can avoid those pesky negroes and we have two others who support Suicide Bombers and who don't care if Isreal and its citizens are wiped off the face of the Earth.

What year is this?????

Regardless if Isreal has been wrong in their actions in the past (they have been as the Palestinians), the attitudes are sickening.

[Ru]

Well, when you choose to reside on land stolen from other people by force, you have to live with the consequences. I guess it's a good thing for me that the Native Americans were basically eliminated by my ancestors.

[dilbert]

So you don't care if 6 year olds are killed????

BTW, would you be OK with Native Americans killing your family?

[SpikedLemonade]

I don't want Israel wiped off the face of the earth.

I just want them to stop their expansionist policies and treat their neighbours better.

[Ru]

Well, I guess what I'm saying is that the rage, anger, and frustration that has resulted in a feeling of hopelessness among the Palestinians and the Arab world at large toward Israel is certainly understandable IMO. The resulting violence because of the treatment of these people is also understandable. While I do not ever want killings of women and children, the state of Israel IMO has brought on their own problems, and I'm embarassed that my country unabashedly and unwaveringly supports their terrorism of the Palestinians.

My previous statement about them being wiped off the Earth was over the top. I'm sorry for that.

[SpikedLemonade]

Ru, my sentiments exactly.

[ticatfan3]

I don't want Israel wiped off the face of the earth.

I just want them to stop their expansionist policies and treat their neighbours better.And spike what do you call the last deal isreal gave arrafat, I called it the best deal he ever could have a got and he said no. You can't blame isreal, only arafat.

[deconstruction]

Hey, most arab states should shoulder some of the blame. Many countries refuse to allow the palestianians to emigrate, leaving them in limbo and fostering a backs-against-the-wall mindset.

[Green Lantern]

Yeah, who cares if an entire nation, including women and children, gets wiped off the face of the Earth!!!!!!!!!

People are unbeleivable. We have one person wanting segregation so he can avoid those pesky negroes and we have two others who support Suicide Bombers and who don't care if Isreal and its citizens are wiped off the face of the Earth.

What year is this?????

Regardless if Isreal has been wrong in their actions in the past (they have been as the Palestinians), the attitudes are sickening.

Just a question:

Are you as upset that people in the camps set up more than sixty years ago are still in the camps?

Those refugee camps were designed to be temorary and those people suffer and die in larger numbers than Israeli's and are civilians, and are women, and are children too, and they have had their lands stripped from them by invaders and have been neglected by their neighbors who have found it a better policy to let them suffer in order to foment hatred than to take them in an allow them to live.

[SpikedLemonade]

Well said Aqua.

More importantly, the US must stop supporting Israel until it changes its behaviour.

Those who make comments to the effect that Israel will be wiped off the face of the earth should reflect on just why Israel is so hated rather than simply assuming it is because they are mostly Jews.

Instead, the US has become the target of Arab anger because the US supports such an unjust country like Israel.

American soldiers should NOT die to further Zionist ends.

Let Jewish soldiers die for that cause and not Americans.

[ticatfan3]

Well said Aqua.

More importantly, the US must stop supporting Israel until it changes its behaviour.

Those who make comments to the effect that Israel will be wiped off the face of the earth should reflect on just why Israel is so hated rather than simply assuming it is because they are mostly Jews.

Instead, the US has become the target of Arab anger because the US supports such an unjust country like Israel.

American soldiers should NOT die to further Zionist ends.

Let Jewish soldiers die for that cause and not Americans.
Change their behaviour, you mean give up and let the idiot palastine kill them all.The reason the palastines are in this mess is becasue they are STUPID.

[г]

Sure Ticat. Imagine that the Government of Quebec tomorrow decides to seize your home in Ontario, kicks you out and gives you a van down by the river to live in on the Quebec side, which they run over with a bulldozer every 6-8 months or so just to piss you off. And they build a 20 foot concrete wall around you, give you no land to farm or no place to get a job.

That would make you 'stupid,' right ?

[SpikedLemonade]

Van by the river?

Those in the Gaza Strip dream of a cardboard box of their own!

[ticatfan3]

Sure Ticat. Imagine that the Government of Quebec tomorrow decides to seize your home in Ontario, kicks you out and gives you a van down by the river to live in on the Quebec side, which they run over with a bulldozer every 6-8 months or so just to piss you off. And they build a 20 foot concrete wall around you, give you no land to farm or no place to get a job.

That would make you 'stupid,' right ?No it makes the liberal goverment stupid for not putting land rights in the great charter of rights. Right now some one can find a mineral under your house doug and claim it and you move.

[ticatfan3]

Van by the river?

Those in the Gaza Strip dream of a cardboard box of their own!Like I said before Isreal gave them a great deal,one that they will never see again ,but the corrupt arafat said no. And if you actually look at what is going on in gaza right now ,it has nothing to do with ISREAL. The people of gaza are saying it was a lot easier when dealing with isreal, but now it is fatah and hamas that are doing all the killing, killing of their own people. Nice try.

[SpikedLemonade]

Bullshit Ticat.

"The fact that the creation of Israel entailed a moral crime against the Palestinian people was well understood by Israel’s leaders. As Ben‐Gurion told Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish Congress, “If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. . . . We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti‐Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”37
Since then, Israeli leaders have repeatedly sought to deny the Palestinians’ national ambitions.38 Prime Minister Golda Meir famously remarked that “there was no such thing as a Palestinian,” and even Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, who signed the 1993 Oslo Accords, nonetheless opposed creating a full‐fledged Palestinian state.39 Pressure from extremist violence and the growing Palestinian population has forced subsequent Israeli leaders to disengage from some of the occupied territories and to explore territorial compromise, but no Israeli government has been willing to offer the Palestinians a viable state of their own. Even Prime Minister Ehud Barak’s purportedly generous offer at Camp David in July 2000 would only have given the Palestinians a disarmed and dismembered set of “Bantustans” under de facto Israeli control.40.....

These men were among President Clinton’s closest advisors at the Camp David summit in July 2000. Although all three supported the Oslo peace process and favored creation of a Palestinian state, they did so only within the limits of what would be acceptable to Israel.82 In particular, the American delegation took its cues from Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, coordinated negotiating positions in advance, and did not offer its own independent proposals for settling the conflict. Not surprisingly, Palestinian negotiators complained that they were “negotiating with two Israeli teams ‐‐ one displaying an Israeli flag, and one an American flag.”83

Endnotes:

39 Rahid Khalidi, Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness (NY: Columbia University Press, 1997), p. 147. Meir also said, “It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist.” Masalha, Imperial Israel, p. 47. Rabin said in 1995, two years after signing the Oslo accords, “I seek peaceful coexistence between Israel as a Jewish state, not all over the land of Israel, or most of it; its capital, the united Jerusalem; its security border with Jordan rebuilt; next to it, a Palestinian entity, less than a state, that runs the life of Palestinians …. This is my goal, not to return to the pre‐Six Day War lines but to create two entities, a separation between Israel and the Palestinians who reside in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.” Hanieh and Cook, “Road Map.” Also see Akiva Eldar, “On the Same Page, Ten Years On,” Ha’aretz, November 5, 2005; David Grossman, “The Night Our Hope for Peace Died,” Guardian, November 4, 2005; Michael Jansen, “A Practice that Prevents the Emergence of a Palestinian State,” Jordan Times, November 10, 2005. It is worth noting that in the spring of 1998, Israel and its American supporters sharply criticized First Lady Hillary Clinton for saying that, “It would be in the long‐term interests of peace in the Middle East for there to be a state of Palestine, a functioning modern state that is on the same footing as other states.” Tom Rhodes and Christopher Walker, “Congress Tells Israel to Reject Clinton’s Pullout Plan,” New York Times, May 8, 1998; James Bennet, “Aides Disavow Mrs. Clinton on Mideast,” New York Times, May 8, 1998.

40 Charles Enderlein, Shattered Dreams: The Failure of the Peace Process in the Middle East, 1995‐2002, trans. Susan Fairfield (NY: Other Press, 2003), pp. 201, 207‐208; Jeremy Pressman, “Visions in Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba? International Security, Vol. 28, No. 2 (Fall 2003), p. 17; Deborah Sontag, “Quest for Mideast Peace: 51
How and Why It Failed,” New York Times, July 26, 2001; Clayton E. Swisher, The Truth about Camp David: The Untold Story about the Collapse of the Peace Process (NY: Nation Books, 2004), pp. 284, 318, 325. Barak himself said after Camp David that “the Palestinians were promised a continuous piece of sovereign territory except for a razor‐thin Israeli wedge running from Jerusalem through from Maale Adumim to the Jordan River,” which effectively would have been under Israel’s control. Benny Morris, “Camp David and After: An Exchange (1. An Interview with Ehud Barak)”, New York Review of Books, Vol. 49, No. 10 (June 13, 2002), p. 44. Also see the map Israeli negotiators presented to the Palestinians at Camp David, a copy of which can be found in Roane Carey, ed., The New Intifada: Resisting Israel’s Apartheid (London: Verso, 2001), p. 36.

82 Samuel (“Sandy”) Berger, President Clinton’s National Security Advisor, reports that at one point during the negotiations at Camp David (July 2000), Dennis Ross made the remarkable comment that, “If Barak offers anything more, I’ll be against this agreement.” Unedited transcript of “Comments by Sandy Berger at the Launch of How Israelis and Palestinians Negotiate (USIP Press, 2005),” U.S. Institute of Peace, Washington, DC, June 7, 2005.

83 Quoted in Blumenfeld, “Three Peace Suits.”

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

Ticat, read and learn rather than to continue talking out of your ass.

This is a 42-page article written last year by a Harvard and Chicago University professors.

[ticatfan3]

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.And they still should have took that deal, are you saying they are better off not taking it? Do you expect the jews (with their history) to give everything back. That is as stupid as the natives demanding all of canada belongs to them.

[shiva2999]

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

:rofl:

WTF does THIS mean?

[SpikedLemonade]

:rofl:

WTF does THIS mean?


Two esteemed professors write 42 pages with footnotes and a guy sorting nuts and bolts in a hardware store sumarizes his position with one cliche.

Hey, it's a message board.

[ticatfan3]

:rofl:

WTF does THIS mean?That means the isreali's own it now and **** the nieghbours.

[ticatfan3]

Two esteemed professors write 42 pages with footnotes and a guy sorting nuts and bolts in a hardware store sumarizes his position with one cliche.

Hey, it's a message board.I wish that is all I had to do.

[Green Lantern]

Ticat,

If you are right and the current situation is the fault of the stupid people who let Israel take away their land, would you have been for or against the Palestinians kicking Jews out of Palestine before they got their statehood?

[SpikedLemonade]

Aqua, read The Israel Lobby that I have linked here.

Interesting reading.

[Green Lantern]

Aqua, read The Israel Lobby that I have linked here.

Interesting reading.

I read the articles when the book came out, went to Mearsheimer's links.

Also, I talked to him in his office at UChicago years ago.

[SpikedLemonade]

Would you say he is anti-Jewish or simply focusing on the best interests of the United States?

[sukie]

Who are the real palestinians?

Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria for thousands of years. In fact, the Jewish religion and people were birthed in Hebron... All of which were in "Palestine".

When are the europeans gonna request France or Spain back?

[Green Lantern]

Would you say he is anti-Jewish or simply focusing on the best interests of the United States?

Anti-Jewish? No.

He actually mentions during some interviews that I have read about how so many of his fellow academics talked to him on the sly, at conferences or cocktail parties, about what an article like this might do to his reputation if he continued to research for it. According to him, this subject is the 600 lbs. gorilla in the room of academic political science. Almost no one would argue against them but many they spoke with would not go on the record and suggested he and Walt drop their research.

He says that anyone who studies US foreign policy at any length will come quickly to the conclusion that Israel punches above their weight in this arena. That is why these two decided to do the research.

[Green Lantern]

Mother Jones: You have been criticized from the left—by Noam Chomsky and Stephen Zunes, for example—for assigning so much blame to the Israel lobby in the paper that you end up absolving the United States government of any culpability. What about factors other than the lobby that were at work in shaping America's Israel policy, such as reliance on Middle Eastern oil?

Mearsheimer: Many people, especially on the left, believe that American policy in the Middle East is driven in large part by oil interests—and here we're talking about the oil companies and the oil-producing states in the region. This is an intuitively attractive argument, but there is little actual evidence that the oil companies and the oil-producing states are driving the United States' Middle East policy, and there's a lot of evidence that the Israel lobby is the main force behind the policy.
Just to take a couple of examples: if the oil companies and the oil-producing states were driving policy, the United States would favor the Palestinians over the Israelis. In fact, the opposite is the case. If oil interests were driving policy, the United States would not have gone to war against Iraq and the United States would have a much less confrontational policy toward Iran. But in fact the lobby was one of the main driving forces behind the war in Iraq and it is the lobby that has been pushing assiduously for a hard-line policy against Iran...

http://www.motherjones.com/interview/2006/07/walt_mearsheimer.html?welcome=true

[SpikedLemonade]

Mother Jones: You have been criticized from the left—by Noam Chomsky and Stephen Zunes, for example—for assigning so much blame to the Israel lobby in the paper that you end up absolving the United States government of any culpability. What about factors other than the lobby that were at work in shaping America's Israel policy, such as reliance on Middle Eastern oil?

Mearsheimer: Many people, especially on the left, believe that American policy in the Middle East is driven in large part by oil interests—and here we're talking about the oil companies and the oil-producing states in the region. This is an intuitively attractive argument, but there is little actual evidence that the oil companies and the oil-producing states are driving the United States' Middle East policy, and there's a lot of evidence that the Israel lobby is the main force behind the policy.
Just to take a couple of examples: if the oil companies and the oil-producing states were driving policy, the United States would favor the Palestinians over the Israelis. In fact, the opposite is the case. If oil interests were driving policy, the United States would not have gone to war against Iraq and the United States would have a much less confrontational policy toward Iran. But in fact the lobby was one of the main driving forces behind the war in Iraq and it is the lobby that has been pushing assiduously for a hard-line policy against Iran...

http://www.motherjones.com/interview/2006/07/walt_mearsheimer.html?welcome=true

Interesting article along with it the links it provides to other critics of the article.

[ticatfan3]

Ticat,

If you are right and the current situation is the fault of the stupid people who let Israel take away their land, would you have been for or against the Palestinians kicking Jews out of Palestine before they got their statehood?Who ever got there and put their flag up.if is was the palastines and they had a democratic country and the isrealis were tryiing to take it ,I would back the palastines.Now I know a few people here are friends of hamas. Well they just reported that they took over a police station in gaza run by fatah which hamaas has now control of the gaza and drag the police out and excuted them in front of their wives.Hamas is a terror group plain and simple. But this could help, since every deal between the fatah and isreal have been nipped in the bud by hamas, now that fatah is now alone and running the west bank, maybe we might see a major change where isreal and fatah could be forced into being allies against the evil hamas. We will have to wait and see.

[sukie]

Who are the real palestinians?

Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria for thousands of years. In fact, the Jewish religion and people were birthed in Hebron... All of which were in "Palestine".

When are the europeans gonna request France or Spain back?

bump

[Green Lantern]

Who ever got there and put their flag up.if is was the palastines and they had a democratic country and the isrealis were tryiing to take it ,I would back the palastines.

So we go farther back and blame the Palestinians for not being able to resist the British?

Also, why democracy? What if they were just a sovereign nation? Is that not good enough for you?

[sukie]

Hey don't blame the Jews... They are Palestinian lite!

[Green Lantern]

Hey don't blame the Jews... They are Palestinian lite!

Well...they are all semitic peoples. It is pretty hard to root for an Arab and be anti-semitic.

[shiva2999]

Since sukie seems to believe that the original dwellers on a piece of land own it in perpetuity, I look forward to him giving his house with his schwanky garage bar back to the Seminoles.

[sukie]

No I find it silly that some can claim nationality to a place that included so many different nationalities... in what? 1969 ish?

[shiva2999]

No I find it silly that some can claim nationality to a place that included so many different nationalities...

So you think Israel is silly?

[Green Lantern]

Who are the real palestinians?

Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria for thousands of years. In fact, the Jewish religion and people were birthed in Hebron... All of which were in "Palestine".

When are the europeans gonna request France or Spain back?

I thought one of the arguments is that Jews were not living there because Muslims are crazy, intolerant, homocidal people.

[sukie]

do the Prussians have the same rights?

http://rollintl.com/roll/prussia.htm

[Green Lantern]

No I find it silly that some can claim nationality to a place that included so many different nationalities... in what? 1969 ish?

Palestine was a place, like "new england", I thought. Not a nation.

Israel is a nation of people. A race.

[sukie]

So the Palestinians (although mostly egyptian in origin) are New Englanderesque? So Bostonians can claim parts of Vermont?

[Green Lantern]

So the Palestinians (although mostly egyptian in origin) are New Englanderesque? So Bostonians can claim parts of Vermont?

If the US were conquered, Mass. chopped up and and divided along more "rational" lines according to the views of the conquerors, and then the conquerors were forced out by a new power then, yes, I think you would have a case if former Bostonians made a claim for Bunker Hill and Cambridge.

[sukie]

But Bostonians exsited in Boston since the 1700. Palestinians didn't exsist as a nationality till 1960's

[sukie]

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/british/images/58vc.jpg

The NeoFrench have a huge claim to the US I guess.

[Green Lantern]

But Bostonians exsited in Boston since the 1700. Palestinians didn't exsist as a nationality till 1960's

Palestine was an area, like New England, of any other Empire they happened to be subsumed within.

They were not trying for self-determination until everyone else did; at the end of WW I, with the League, and after WW II when the US forced Britain to abdicate Empire.

[sukie]

So some French can claim Spain as Europa? and be entitled to it? After all Europa was a region.

[Green Lantern]

So some French can claim Spain as Europa? and be entitled to it? After all Europa was a region.

I don't understand what it is you are not understanding about the fact that during the great liberations from Empire people were encouraged by us, the USA, to be "self-determining" groups based on historical, cultural, nationalistic precedent. One group who did not wish to be a part of another political entity, that did not want to be subservient out outside powers, were the people who were natives of an area of land roughly called Palestine.

WTF does France and Spain have to do with formerly oppressed people who have been encouraged to take control of their own political lives?

Maybe you could make a point for Basque separatists.

[sukie]

So any past inhabitants of a region can self determine?

[Green Lantern]

So any past inhabitants of a region can self determine?


No. That is the argument the Jews made.

Any CURRENT inhabitant of a colony HAD the right to try and make a new nation-state when the colonizers were forced to go back to Europe.

[sukie]

When did the Palestinian People as we know them now become organized?

[Green Lantern]

When did the Palestinian People as we know them now become organized?

As we now know them? You've got me with that slippery question.

[sukie]

1960's? These cherry picked self proclaimed area-ists or regionists are claiming nationality to a region but wants judea's slice only.

[SpikedLemonade]

Sukie, I think you need to do some reading into the establishment of Israel.

Your claims that there were NO Palestinians is 101 Zionist propaganda.

The footnotes in the article I linked discuss population figures of Palestinians vs. Jews in the late 1800's, around WWI and just before the creation of Israel.

If your definition of "existing" means being recognized as such by the Jews themselves, then you are simply chasing your own tail in this argument.

[sukie]

I am saying the Jews were Palestinian. Why not go after the 1/3rd of the Sinai Penninsula that was part of Palestine? You need to remove Islam from this equation completely if you have an arguement. Part os Syria was Palestine... Why no ight for any of that land?

[Green Lantern]

1960's? These cherry picked self proclaimed area-ists or regionists are claiming nationality to a region but wants judea's slice only.

No. Not 1960's, so far as I can tell.

It goes back to the ancient Sumerians and continues on through the British Mandate of the 1920-40's. That is much earlier than your proported time.

[uppy]

Who are the real palestinians?

Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria for thousands of years. In fact, the Jewish religion and people were birthed in Hebron... All of which were in "Palestine".

When are the europeans gonna request France or Spain back?

LMAO

Sukie,you kick their ass with this each time this issue comes up...they have

no answers.

life is good

[Green Lantern]

LMAO

Sukie,you kick their ass with this each time this issue comes up...they have

no answers.

life is good

You are as funny as the questioner. The Jews did not emigrate from Europe after WW II? They lived there for thousands of years?

Where did you guys learn this crap?

[Green Lantern]

I am saying the Jews were Palestinian. Why not go after the 1/3rd of the Sinai Penninsula that was part of Palestine? You need to remove Islam from this equation completely if you have an arguement. Part os Syria was Palestine... Why no ight for any of that land?



So, the Jews were from Palestine. Why then did they return, kick out non-Jewish Palestinians, and found a religious state? How is that fair to their fellow countrymen?

[uppy]

You are as funny as the questioner. The Jews did not emigrate from Europe after WW II? They lived there for thousands of years?

Where did you guys learn this crap?

Jew have lived in Madagascar and moved back to their Ancient home land...I

don't see your point

[Green Lantern]

Jew have lived in Madagascar and moved back to their Ancient home land...I

don't see your point

Of course you don't. You apparently did not read the post you quoted.

Sukie asked if people who lived in the area for "thousands of years" had not a right.

You just said they "moved back".

Which is it? Did they live there for thousands of years or did they just move back from Madagascar?

[SpikedLemonade]

Aqua, you are wasting your time.

There is material -- purely historical -- that they could read, but they don't bother.

They prefer to be smug using the twisted logic of Zionist propaganda as if they were Alan De-Jew-wich's bum buddy.

They can't think their own way through this issue.

It's easy to be pro-Israel since the American political system has been so for 60+ years.

[sukie]

[/b]Palestine (from Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el, formerly also פלשתינה Palestina; Arabic: فلسطين Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn) is one of several names for the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River and various adjoining lands. Different definitions for the region have been used over the past three millennia.
Other English names for this region include: Canaan, Land of Israel, and Holy Land.

[b]Judea The name Judea is a Greek and Roman adaptation of the name "Judah" and originally implied the whole territories of the previous Jewish Kingdoms, but by the time of the New Testament it had been limited in scope to the south of the region. In Hebrew Yehudah refers to a large southern section of Israel and the West Bank, or in the combined term Judea and Samaria to refer specifically to the West Bank area south of Jerusalem.

Without talking religion who was here first?

[Green Lantern]

[/b]Palestine (from Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el, formerly also פלשתינה Palestina; Arabic: فلسطين Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn) is one of several names for the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River and various adjoining lands. Different definitions for the region have been used over the past three millennia.
Other English names for this region include: Canaan, Land of Israel, and Holy Land.

[b]Judea The name Judea is a Greek and Roman adaptation of the name "Judah" and originally implied the whole territories of the previous Jewish Kingdoms, but by the time of the New Testament it had been limited in scope to the south of the region. In Hebrew Yehudah refers to a large southern section of Israel and the West Bank, or in the combined term Judea and Samaria to refer specifically to the West Bank area south of Jerusalem.

Without talking religion who was here first?

Without talking religion, Palestinians were in Palestine, you fool.

Palestine has been, since before Jews existed.

[Green Lantern]

I am saying the Jews were Palestinian. Why not go after the 1/3rd of the Sinai Penninsula that was part of Palestine? You need to remove Islam from this equation completely if you have an arguement. Part os Syria was Palestine... Why no ight for any of that land?

This gives them the right to take it from those who ARE Palestinian?

Jews have not been Palestinians since Nebuchadnezzar banished them.

[SpikedLemonade]

Aqua, you are talking eloqently, but like dogs all they can hear is "blah, blah, blah Jews, blah, blah, blah Jews..."

They are too busy licking their own balls to think about the issues.

[sukie]

This gives them the right to take it from those who ARE Palestinian?

Jews have not been Palestinians since Nebuchadnezzar banished them.

Palestine was made up of Christians, Jews and Egyptians... there was no islam yet

[TallskiWallski83]

maybe the world just needs to grow the **** up and stop fighting for the tiniest peace of "holy" land, what difference does it make if its holy or not, its soil, theres tons of places for people to live.

screw all religion, all it does is lead to conflict and death.

[35Pete]

Jew have lived in Madagascar and moved back to their Ancient home land...I

don't see your point

I thought that Hitler's plan was to send the Jews to Madagascar but he found sending them up the chimney to be more economical.

Maybe I missed something when reading about past jewish history. Could have.

[Green Lantern]

Palestine was made up of Christians, Jews and Egyptians... there was no islam yet

I thought you suggested that we leave Islam out of this. Why are you the only one to bring it up, I wonder.

Palestine, is my argument, is a REGION not a race of men. You keep doing this.

If you were living between the river Jordan and the sea and between Lebanon and Gaza when the British held sway, you were a Palestinian when the US suggested that all colonialized people should think about self-rule.

Third time.

[sukie]

but the modern day Paletinians are not a mix

[Green Lantern]

but the modern day Paletinians are not a mix

Of course not. When Israel was created, they only rounded up and shipped into the camps certain types of people.

[sukie]

But was the area of creation in question... Palestine?

[FamousAmos]

Where's Gibby in this discussion? I'm interested in reading his thoughts...

[SpikedLemonade]

Where's Gibby in this discussion? I'm interested in reading his thoughts...

See above -- ball licking.

[FamousAmos]

See above -- ball licking.

:lolhair: No, I asked because he's a history buff and probably knows about the origin of the Middle East conflict.

I would comment but I honestly don't know enough about the subject. Most of the time I come here, is to learn from you guys!

[ticatfan3]

Well I would bet alot of palastines today wish it was just the jews they had to deal with. A slaughter has started. Soon all the women will lose most of their rights, but it seems some people here like that.