ethical thought experiment

[K-Gun]

Say you're presented with a choice, all you have to do is click the mouse one time, and you are guaranteed 1 million dollars and zero chance of getting caught.

The catch is, you will be robbing 1,000 children in Africa of food and shelter for 10 years.

What do you do?

What motivates you to make your choice?

[Matt]

I feel as sorry for myself as I do for the starvin' children.

Gimme the dime.

[uppy]

I'd take the money and give it to American Kids :)

After I take my 30%

[Mouldsie]

Hell no!



What do you do?

What motivates you to make your choice?
Damage the software

Love

[35Pete]

There are things that are absolute.

Taking money that does not belong to you is wrong. No matter what the cause, no matter what the circumstances. It is absolutely wrong.

I get more satisfaction being comfortable in my own skin and being able to wake up and look in the mirror in the morning than I would with all the fine luxuries that million dollars would bring.

It's a no-brainer.

[Matt]

Say you're presented with a choice, all you have to do is click the mouse one time, and you are guaranteed 1 million dollars and zero chance of getting caught.

The catch is, you will be robbing 1,000 children in Africa of food and shelter for 10 years.

What do you do?

What motivates you to make your choice?


Well now I'm confused and may have to retract my vote. Pete's explanation brings up something that I sort of read past.

What precisely do you mean by 'robbing'? Do you mean that you are taking a million dollars from African children who had that million dollars, or a million dollars that is just floating in the sphere of existence, and could either go to them or to you?

[Mouldsie]

why does it matter?

[35Pete]

Well now I'm confused and may have to retract my vote. Pete's explanation brings up something that I sort of read past.

What precisely do you mean by 'robbing'? Do you mean that you are taking a million dollars from African children who had that million dollars, or a million dollars that is just floating in the sphere of existence, and could either go to them or to you?

the words "zero chance of getting caught" to me clearly implies threat.

That in itself should change your answer I think.

[35Pete]

why does it matter?

Because if it wasn't theft then I'd take the money, leverage it into something more, give the African kids a lot more in the long run, and get rich myself.

A win win.

[Matt]

why does it matter?

Because stealing is entirely different then taking something that is neutral to begin with.

I'd explain this further if I have to, but I really don't want to have to. Though I expect somebody is going to be clever enough to think they can make a snide remark on the situation. This is the type of question that has a lot to do with the circumstances surrounding peoples lives, and other then some political beliefs, country of origin and the fact that you have an internet connection, no one really knows that much about anyone else here. So assumptions (and being a complete and utter ****) are possibly, even likely here.

So unless someone is of the opinion that by default being an American with an internet connection is better off then a group of African children (who may or may not have a million dollars), I think it makes a big difference. Ethically speaking.

[Mouldsie]

It's better to steal from african millionaires? :D

[Matt]

the words "zero chance of getting caught" to me clearly implies threat.

That in itself should change your answer I think.

It was worded ugly. When it comes to that I'm not one to talk.

Zero chance of getting caught was prior to any mention of robbing and I had already forgotten that part of the sentence.

But in any event, if stealing is involved, no. If not, yes.

[Matt]

It's better to steal from african millionaires? :D

You're either being silly or misunderstanding me.

[35Pete]

Because stealing is entirely different then taking something that is neutral to begin with.

I'd explain this further if I have to, but I really don't want to have to. Though I expect somebody is going to be clever enough to think they can make a snide remark on the situation. This is the type of question that has a lot to do with the circumstances surrounding peoples lives, and other then some political beliefs, country of origin and the fact that you have an internet connection, no one really knows that much about anyone else here. So assumptions (and being a complete and utter ****) are possibly, even likely here.

So unless someone is of the opinion that by default being an American with an internet connection is better off then a group of African children (who may or may not have a million dollars), I think it makes a big difference. Ethically speaking.

Think about it. I think your motives are more moral then you are communicating.

[35Pete]

This is a pretty interesting thread.

[Mouldsie]

You're either being silly or misunderstanding me.

im always serious

[Matt]

Think about it. I think your motives are more moral then you are communicating.

I think I've explained it pretty clearly.

I'm not going to steal a million dollars from a family of African children, knowing that it would leave them without a home or food. I'd like to think a family of African children with a million dollars would want to help me out, or put it to other charitable causes, though. Because the implication of "African children" kind of loses its luster when you say they have a million dollars. Why not a family of Swiss children with a million dollars? You're lucky you don't work for CBS Radio and MSNBC.

My life isn't ordinary. I require a lot more money (and effort) then the average person to sustain life. Because I have serious medical issues. So if there was a million dollars sitting on a table and my choice was to take it or give it, I would take it, at least to the extent that it would make my life and effort average, and do with the rest what I thought would help other people. Probably attend to those in my family with serious needs first.

[Matt]

im always serious

Then I guess your short-sighted question and short-sighted response have no idea what I'm talking about.

[uppy]

Why are you trying to wiggle out of your vote Tragic ?

[Matt]

Why are you trying to wiggle out of your vote Tragic ?

Because there are two ways to read the post, Uppy. And it makes a difference as to my vote.

"African children" implies you're taking something they need, or he could have used any sort of family.

But if they already had a million dollars, they don't need it, they already have it, and that would constitute stealing, as Pete said.

African children aren't the only ones with need, but my need, while outweighing something neutral, doesn't outweigh something that is not neutral nor mine (stealing).

[35Pete]

I think I've explained it pretty clearly.

I'm not going to steal a million dollars from a family of African children, knowing that it would leave them without a home or food. I'd like to think a family of African children with a million dollars would want to help me out, or put it to other charitable causes, though. Because the implication of "African children" kind of loses its luster when you say they have a million dollars. Why not a family of Swiss children with a million dollars? You're lucky you don't work for CBS Radio and MSNBC.

My life isn't ordinary. I require a lot more money (and effort) then the average person to sustain life. Because I have serious medical issues. So if there was a million dollars sitting on a table and my choice was to take it or give it, I would take it, at least to the extent that it would make my life and effort average, and do with the rest what I thought would help other people. Probably attend to those in my family with serious needs first.

I see. I'm not gonna pass a judgement on this one. Too tough. I haven't walked a mile in your shoes.

[nehemiah]

give me the money.

bitches.

[FamousAmos]

Robbing African children is wrong, so I answered no.

Then I thought about a lot of the instances where I waste things African children would love to have-food scraps and left overs, running water, disposable income.

And that brings me to reflect on my current position in life-spending 35 bucks for internet, watching cable television, owning my own vehicle, and going to grad school. Pretty sweet life at this juncture.

I don't know if anyone else has ever thought about feeling guilty for having a better life than another group of people half way across the world.

Should my position in life reflect on my intention to make the world a better place? If so, then do I turn down the million clams?

I do, but I still feel guilty

[Lucidvizion]

Say you're presented with a choice, all you have to do is click the mouse one time, and you are guaranteed 1 million dollars and zero chance of getting caught.

The catch is, you will be robbing 1,000 children in Africa of food and shelter for 10 years.

What do you do?

What motivates you to make your choice?

I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I clicked.

[K-Gun]

Robbing African children is wrong, so I answered no.

Then I thought about a lot of the instances where I waste things African children would love to have-food scraps and left overs, running water, disposable income.

And that brings me to reflect on my current position in life-spending 35 bucks for internet, watching cable television, owning my own vehicle, and going to grad school. Pretty sweet life at this juncture.

I don't know if anyone else has ever thought about feeling guilty for having a better life than another group of people half way across the world.

Should my position in life reflect on my intention to make the world a better place? If so, then do I turn down the million clams?

I do, but I still feel guilty

The fact that you're mindfully aware of your blessing tells me that you have nothing to be guilty for.

But if you want to make a huge difference, this little church in Orchard Park where I grew up helped build a school in Kenya for children whose parents died of HIV/AIDS.

If you ever want to give money to a good cause, here you go. Just $300 can house, feed and school a child in need for an entire year.

You can make you checks out to:

Crossroads Springs/Orchard Park Quaker Meeting
C/o Clerk, Orchard Park Quaker Meeting
6924 East Quaker Road
Orchard Park, NY 14127

http://quakereastafrica.blogspot.com/2006/11/kenya-western-crossroads-springs-care.html

www.crossroadssprings.org

[35Pete]

Robbing African children is wrong, so I answered no.

Then I thought about a lot of the instances where I waste things African children would love to have-food scraps and left overs, running water, disposable income.

And that brings me to reflect on my current position in life-spending 35 bucks for internet, watching cable television, owning my own vehicle, and going to grad school. Pretty sweet life at this juncture.

I don't know if anyone else has ever thought about feeling guilty for having a better life than another group of people half way across the world.

Should my position in life reflect on my intention to make the world a better place? If so, then do I turn down the million clams?

I do, but I still feel guilty

Then you are a liberal. :D No seriously. Most liberals feel a lot of guilt about that stuff.

I don't feel a damn bit of guilt about my success. Nor should I.

And they are not blessings I am afraid to say. To the contrary. Nothing was dropped in my lap.

[K-Gun]

Then you are a liberal. :D No seriously. Most liberals feel a lot of guilt about that stuff.

I don't feel a damn bit of guilt about my success. Nor should I.

And they are not blessings I am afraid to say. To the contrary. Nothing was dropped in my lap.

What a bunch of baloney. You were thrown into this world without any consultation, and your lucky ass happened to pop out in the most wealthy nation in the history of the world.

You have a lot to be thankful for, hard work or not.

[uppy]

My money goes to American kids first....fu@k the rest of the world.

[nehemiah]

What a bunch of baloney. You were thrown into this world without any consultation, and your lucky ass happened to pop out in the most wealthy nation in the history of the world.

You have a lot to be thankful for, hard work or not.we all do. and truer words have never been posted.

btw, anyone who says they wouldn't take the $$$$ is a liar.

[K-Gun]

we all do. and truer words have never been posted.

btw, anyone who says they wouldn't take the $$$$ is a liar.

I can honestly say that there have been many times in my life that I would have taken the money and many times in which I wouldn't.

It really depends what mood you catch me in, I guess. Even if I took it, I'd have no allusions of being justified (uppy.)

[shiva2999]

btw, anyone who says they wouldn't take the $$$$ is a liar.

Huh? Dude, this must be a Catholic reflex or something.

You're saying that it's only the fear of being caught that prevents everyone from being a thieving oppressor.

Some of us HAVE made decisions for ethical reasons that adversly affected our pocketbooks.

[Woody]

I wouldn't take the money.. I'd feel like crap if I did. Those skinny, starving, AIDS infested kids need it more than I do. :niterider

[HURLS]

Give me the ****ing money and shut up already. I'll be out of here in 2.2 seconds.

[Matt]

I wouldn't take the money.. I'd feel like crap if I did. Those skinny, starving, AIDS infested kids need it more than I do. :niterider

They probably wouldn't be starving if they had a million dollars to begin with.

[HURLS]

Some of us HAVE made decisions for ethical reasons that adversly affected our pocketbooks.

Not our fault you knocked a chick up and had to get married.

[Matt]

Not our fault you knocked a chick up and had to get married.

:lolhair:

[35Pete]

Huh? Dude, this must be a Catholic reflex or something.

You're saying that it's only the fear of being caught that prevents everyone from being a thieving oppressor.

Some of us HAVE made decisions for ethical reasons that adversly affected our pocketbooks.

I think that you'd realize that it would haunt you for the rest of your life. I don't like it one bit when someone or some people decide what to do with my money. This is not the case. This is NOT my money. I couldn't take it. I just couldn't.

Ever get back a 10 in change when you should have received a 5? We both know that mistake is coming out of the cashier's pocket (and so what if it didn't). I always point out the mistake. I don't need my day ruined feeling like crap over lowering my dignity.

[HURLS]

I think that you'd realize that it would haunt you for the rest of your life. I don't like it one bit when someone or some people decide what to do with my money. This is not the case. This is NOT my money. I couldn't take it. I just couldn't.

Ever get back a 10 in change when you should have received a 5? We both know that mistake is coming out of the cashier's pocket (and so what if it didn't). I always point out the mistake. I don't need my day ruined feeling like crap over lowering my dignity.

Ya, and when you get overcharged by jerks, it all evens out. So if you found a C-Note in a bad neighborhood, you'd take it to the Police Lost and Found? :rofl: Take the money and run Petey.

[35Pete]

Ya, and when you get overcharged by jerks, it all evens out. So if you found a C-Note in a bad neighborhood, you'd take it to the Police Lost and Found? :rofl: Take the money and run Petey.

Never said that. If I found a C note I'd keep it. Because the odds of finding the rightful owner are zilch. So I benefit from it.

Your justification is weak Hurls. Very weak.

If someone rich looking (gets out of a Mercedes) drops a C note behind him leaving his $80,000 car do you keep it?

I don't.

[Matt]

Ya, and when you get overcharged by jerks, it all evens out. So if you found a C-Note in a bad neighborhood, you'd take it to the Police Lost and Found? :rofl: Take the money and run Petey.

According to all of the Dudley Do-Right's around here, intent has absolutely nothing to do with the equation (unless, you know, it's convenient).

The main problem with the internet moral superhero: They fail to recognize that the noble ideology is not a product of themselves. Preach big ideas and somehow make themselves bigger then it, somehow anyway. Which is part of the reason why, also, this is such a loaded and ridiculous question to post on a forum to a bunch of people who, at the majority, are completely out of the real-world trenches on the issues they talk about.

But blabber blabber blabber, groan groan. They've got the moral monopoly.

[35Pete]

According to all of the Dudley Do-Right's around here, intent has absolutely nothing to do with the equation (unless, you know, it's convenient).

The main problem with the internet moral superhero: They fail to recognize that the noble ideology is not a product of themselves. Preach big ideas and somehow make themselves bigger then it, somehow anyway. Which is part of the reason why, also, this is such a loaded and ridiculous question to post on a forum to a bunch of people who, at the majority, are completely out of the real-world trenches on this issues they talk about.

But blabber blabber blabber, groan groan. They've got the moral monopoly.

Or how about this hypothesis Tragic.

Guys like Shiva and I were raised in an age where integrity was the most important aspect of our being. That no one could take away your dignity but you. And taking the money is selling your integrity and the price is just too high?

Ever think about that?

Ever think that you are committing a crime? Hmm?

Ever think that there are concepts, fundamental, that are bigger than you?

[Green Lantern]

Or how about this hypothesis Tragic.

Guys like Shiva and I were raised in an age where integrity was the most important aspect of our being. That no one could take away your dignity but you. And taking the money is selling your integrity and the price is just too high?

Ever think about that?

Ever think that you are committing a crime? Hmm?

Ever think that there are concepts, fundamental, that are bigger than you?

This is also why even if you would take the money, you would not admit it publicly. You parrot the right answer because a smart person knows the value of morality and ethics to the fabric of society.

[35Pete]

This is also why even if you would take the money, you would not admit it publicly. You parrot the right answer because a smart person knows the value of morality and ethics to the fabric of society.

Clarify. What do you mean when you say "You parrot the right answer"?

[Matt]

Or how about this hypothesis Tragic.

Guys like Shiva and I were raised in an age where integrity was the most important aspect of our being. That no one could take away your dignity but you. And taking the money is selling your integrity and the price is just too high?




Wait, when, 1804?

That is a completely, totally, absolute farce and joke of a statement to come from someone who isn't at least, I don't know, 200 years old.

What are you? 30? 40? 50? Do you want me to make a list of the utter BULL-SHIT that your generation has done in the wake of not even allowing my generation to have an idea out of the paranoia of your own mistakes? And then to mask it with this post-issue masturbatory surreality about the strength of your values and your ideals to make it all, in the least, feel better? My answer was not dishonest and not immoral but you're ****ing knee-jerk and judgmental so whatever the **** ever.

Yeah you guys are such noble martyrs of moral justice. And you display it by fantasizing on an internet forum. OKAY.

[HURLS]

Or how about this hypothesis Tragic.

Guys like Shiva and I were raised in an age where integrity was the most important aspect of our being. That no one could take away your dignity but you. And taking the money is selling your integrity and the price is just too high?

Ever think about that?

Ever think that you are committing a crime? Hmm?

Ever think that there are concepts, fundamental, that are bigger than you?

You're committing a crime by keeping money that was found? My justification is weak, lol. A rich looking guy drops a C Note and you wouldn't keep it. You are full of shit.

[Matt]

Ever think about that?

Ever think that you are committing a crime? Hmm?

Ever think that there are concepts, fundamental, that are bigger than you?

I've thought about it all and thought about how you seemed to completely forget the original conversation we had about this topic yesterday ....TOS

[35Pete]

You're committing a crime by keeping money that was found? My justification is weak, lol. A rich looking guy drops a C Note and you wouldn't keep it. You are full of shit.

Wow. Have we as a society degraded this much?

[HURLS]

Yeah you guys are such noble martyrs of moral justice. And you display it by fantasizing on an internet forum. OKAY.

Not only fantasizing, but in one person's case, getting rich off it.

[Matt]

You're committing a crime by keeping money that was found? My justification is weak, lol. A rich looking guy drops a C Note and you wouldn't keep it. You are full of shit.

He took the phrase "robbing" literally, meaning you would be stealing a million dollars from African children.

But nobody points out the absurdity of using "African Children" if they have a million dollars or the fact that the more interesting moral question is if the money wasn't theirs to begin with.

He (and shiva, as he included), want to make themselves feel better and this is a freaking tee-ball level question. Congratulations. Smile for the day, you're a good person or something.

[Green Lantern]

Clarify. What do you mean when you say "You parrot the right answer"?

If you thought the rules were for suckers, you would parrot; say; the "right" answer...make yourself a liar as well as a thief, because saying you are a thief and that it is OK only serves to help disintegrate the fabric of society. Only an utter fool would help destroy where they live.

So if you were going to take the money and were smart, you would see the value of saying, "don't take the money", even if you planned on taking the money if this event actually unfolded.

[HURLS]

Wow. Have we as a society degraded this much?


No, it's always been that way, some just refuse to be honest about it. Ripping off the Indians and French was mighty honest.

[35Pete]

I've thought about it all and thought about how you seemed to completely forget the original conversation we had about this topic yesterday in favor of stroking your **** a little more with this post, you big, dumb shit.

:tsk:

Well if you want to admit that you'd steal what is not yours then that's your issue not mine. Rationalize away. You are not going to convince me.

Taking this right to the gutter tells me that my comments really bother you. Might I ask why?

[HURLS]

He took the phrase "robbing" literally, meaning you would be stealing a million dollars from African children.

But nobody points out the absurdity of using "African Children" if they have a million dollars or the fact that the more interesting moral question is if the money wasn't theirs to being with.

He (and shiva, as he included), want to make themselves feel better and this is a freaking tee-ball level question. Congratulations. Smile for the day, you're a good person or something.

For only 23 cents a day, you too can be a great person. Ask that old man from Trapper John MD.

[35Pete]

No, it's always been that way, some just refuse to be honest about it. Ripping off the Indians and French was mighty honest.

We screwed the Indians in a HUGE way. Is this justification by precedent? That makes it OK? Because others do it?

We didn't screw the French with the La Purchase. They agreed to a deal. No one put a gun to their heads.

[HURLS]

:tsk:

Well if you want to admit that you'd steal what is not yours then that's your issue not mine. Rationalize away. You are not going to convince me.

Taking this right to the gutter tells me that my comments really bother you. Might I ask why?

Steal? I thought you said "found". Big difference.

[35Pete]

If you thought the rules were for suckers, you would parrot; say; the "right" answer...make yourself a liar as well as a thief, because saying you are a thief and that it is OK only serves to help disintegrate the fabric of society. Only an utter fool would help destroy where they live.

So if you were going to take the money and were smart, you would see the value of saying, "don't take the money", even if you planned on taking the money if this event actually unfolded.

So then. Those here that say that they wouldn't take the money really would? Its that what you are stating?

[35Pete]

Steal? I thought you said "found". Big difference.

No. If you can locate the rightful owner, and you keep it anyways, then it is theft.

Funny. Any Court of Law will agree with me. Why's that?

[HURLS]

We didn't screw the French with the La Purchase. They agreed to a deal. No one put a gun to their heads.

LMAO!! So let me get you pinned correctly. It was okay to screw the French because they agreed, but wrong to keep money that you found on the street? You have some f'd up morals dude.

[Matt]

:tsk:

Well if you want to admit that you'd steal what is not yours then that's your issue not mine. Rationalize away. You are not going to convince me.

Taking this right to the gutter tells me that my comments really bother you. Might I ask why?

I already explain my opinion to you depending on the meaning of the question. If you're ignoring it now or pandering to whoever else is reading this thread to make yourself look good: Whatever, but you know my position and you went so far as not pass judgment on it because of it. Stealing and taking are different things, and taking something that wasn't mine to begin with isn't a moral crime to begin with depending on the circumstances. You're trying to make it sound that way though. Stealing is a different story and I would not steal.

Your comments bother me because I am bothered when such shallow individuals try to make their beliefs out to be admirable. You're an emotional and ideological criminal. You're using one of the most influential tools of our time (the internet) to amplify those crimes. Same for shiva. You'd think you'd at least be honest about it, but we're not even that lucky. aqua makes outstanding points, constantly -- aqua is a consistently good poster on this forum and does it all without the benefit of enhancing his own image or belittle others. There are a handful of people who do that in the PR & S and you and I are not among them. But your belief that you are is stupid.

[HURLS]

No. If you can locate the rightful owner, and you keep it anyways, then it is theft.

Funny. Any Court of Law will agree with me. Why's that?

Bullshit. Unless the guy makes a claim for the lost money, it is yours to keep. Ala The Brady Bunch, circa long time ago. :D

[35Pete]

LMAO!! So let me get you pinned correctly. It was okay to screw the French because they agreed, but wrong to keep money that you found on the street? You have some f'd up morals dude.

Hurls. Quit trying to justify bad behavior. Perhaps the purchase was the value of the land per the perception of the French.

Back on subject.

Someone drops money. You know that it belongs to them. Yet you keep it anyways. Why?

[Green Lantern]

So then. Those here that say that they wouldn't take the money really would? Its that what you are stating?

Not all, I'm sure.

I suggested that IF you were to take the money, you would be smart not to go around admitting such things as they serve no purpose but to degrade public confidence in society.

So, people who would not take the money AND smart people who would take the money, would click "no".

[HURLS]

The problem is JKiG stated it as "robbing" the children of Africa. If he means robbing as in money that was dropped that was headed for Africa, ok, obviously I would return it. But if he means finding lost money that "could" be used to feed African kids, **** 'em. Like someone said, it should go to starving and homeless Americans first. Me second. :D

[HURLS]

Hurls. Quit trying to justify bad behavior. Perhaps the purchase was the value of the land per the perception of the French.

Back on subject.

Someone drops money. You know that it belongs to them. Yet you keep it anyways. Why?

Why? 'Cuz if you drop money, you obviously do not value it. I value money, and NEVER lose my wallet or drop money. So screw them for being careless.

[Green Lantern]

I already explain my opinion to you depending on the meaning of the question. If you're ignoring it now or pandering to whoever else is reading this thread to make yourself look good: Whatever, but you know my position and you went so far as not pass judgment on it because of it. Stealing and taking are different things, and taking something that wasn't mine to begin with isn't a moral crime to begin with depending on the circumstances. You're trying to make it sound that way though. Stealing is a different story and I would not steal.

Your comments bother me because I am bothered when such shallow individuals try to make their beliefs out to be admirable. You're an emotional and ideological criminal. You're using one of the most influential tools of our time (the internet) to amplify those crimes. Same for shiva. You'd think you'd at least be honest about it, but we're not even that lucky. aqua makes outstanding points, constantly -- aqua is a consistently good poster on this forum and does it all without the benefit of enhancing his own image or belittle others. There are a handful of people who do that in the PR & S and you and I are not among them. But your belief that you are is stupid.


You have to understand, old people are only full of piss and vinegar in the morning. By afternoon, Pete will agree with you again.

Wait 'til you're 40-something.

[35Pete]

I already explain my opinion to you depending on the meaning of the question. If you're ignoring it now or pandering to whoever else is reading this thread to make yourself look good: Whatever, but you know my position and you went so far as not pass judgment on it because of it. Stealing and taking are different things, and taking something that wasn't mine to begin with isn't a moral crime to begin with depending on the circumstances. You're trying to make it sound that way though. Stealing is a different story and I would not steal.

Your comments bother me because I am bothered when such shallow individuals try to make their beliefs out to be admirable. You're an emotional and ideological criminal. You're using one of the most influential tools of our time (the internet) to amplify those crimes. Same for shiva. You'd think you'd at least be honest about it, but we're not even that lucky. aqua makes outstanding points, constantly -- aqua is a consistently good poster on this forum and does it all without the benefit of enhancing his own image or belittle others. There are a handful of people who do that in the PR & S and you and I are not among them. But your belief that you are is stupid.

Hmm. Strawman being set up here.

Here is the crux of the REAL argument.

Stealing is wrong.

Here is what you are trying to steer this into.

Anyone that argues that stealing is wrong is trying to inflate themselves.

By turning this from a universally accepted (why is it universal?) standard that stealing that money is wrong to the motivations of a disagreeing poster is wrong. It's a strawman attempt, an attempt to change the crux of the argument, and deflect from looking bad.

IDK what has happened here. But for my generation you never got points for doing the right thing. IT WAS EXPECTED OF YOU. So you did not prove yourself a "good person" by making a moral decision here and there. You can't inflate your ego for doing the right thing.

"Hey guys. He really pissed me off but I held back and I didn't kill him".

"Wow, you are a great person!"

That's not ego inflation. Not killing him was EXPECTED. Killing him would have made you scum.

So get off the shifting argument shit. The fact that you are taking this to the gutter means that I am really touching a nerve here. Both you and Hurls. Tells me perhaps that you'd keep the $100 too?

[35Pete]

Not all, I'm sure.

I suggested that IF you were to take the money, you would be smart not to go around admitting such things as they serve no purpose but to degrade public confidence in society.

So, people who would not take the money AND smart people who would take the money, would click "no".

I am sure that some would indeed.

[Matt]

Hmm. Strawman being set up here.

Here is the crux of the REAL argument.

Stealing is wrong.

Here is what you are trying to steer this into.

Anyone that argues that stealing is wrong is trying to inflate themselves.

By turning this from a universally accepted (why is it universal?) standard that stealing that money is wrong to the motivations of a disagreeing poster is wrong. It's a strawman attempt, an attempt to change the crux of the argument, and deflect from looking bad.

IDK what has happened here. But for my generation you never got points for doing the right thing. IT WAS EXPECTED OF YOU. So you did not prove yourself a "good person" by making a moral decision here and there. You can't inflate your ego for doing the right thing.

"Hey guys. He really pissed me off but I held back and I didn't kill him".

"Wow, you are a great person!"

That's not ego inflation. Not killing him was EXPECTED. Killing him would have made you scum.

So get off the shifting argument shit. The fact that you are taking this to the gutter means that I am really touching a nerve here. Both you and Hurls. Tells me perhaps that you'd keep the $100 too?

You're wrong, that's not what I'm trying to turn it into.

I expect no less then that assumption from you, though.

[35Pete]

You're wrong, that's not what I'm trying to turn it into.

I expect no less then that assumption from you, though.

Assumption? Bullshit and you know it. You went right to the gutter by questioning my motives.

You mention Shiva too. Shiva and I don't always get along but I didn't disbelieve his statement for one second. It seems natural given the time that our values were molded.

I knew the most recent generations were in the moral shitter but I didn't realize that it was this bad. Not all is lost. Mouldsie indicated that he wouldn't keep the money either.

More proof of the ME generation.

Now here's why you are being dishonest. This post directly contradicts your statement.

I already explain my opinion to you depending on the meaning of the question. If you're ignoring it now or pandering to whoever else is reading this thread to make yourself look good: Whatever, but you know my position and you went so far as not pass judgment on it because of it. Stealing and taking are different things, and taking something that wasn't mine to begin with isn't a moral crime to begin with depending on the circumstances. You're trying to make it sound that way though. Stealing is a different story and I would not steal.

Your comments bother me because I am bothered when such shallow individuals try to make their beliefs out to be admirable. You're an emotional and ideological criminal. You're using one of the most influential tools of our time (the internet) to amplify those crimes. Same for shiva. You'd think you'd at least be honest about it, but we're not even that lucky. aqua makes outstanding points, constantly -- aqua is a consistently good poster on this forum and does it all without the benefit of enhancing his own image or belittle others. There are a handful of people who do that in the PR & S and you and I are not among them. But your belief that you are is stupid.

[Matt]

Assumption? Bullshit and you know it. You went right to the gutter by questioning my motives.

You mention Shiva too. Shiva and I don't always get along but I didn't disbelieve his statement for one second. It seems natural given the time that our values were molded.

I knew the most recent generations were in the moral shitter but I didn't realize that it was this bad. Not all is lost. Mouldsie indicated that he wouldn't keep the money either.

More proof of the ME generation.

Now here's why you are being dishonest. This post directly contradicts your statement.

The fact that I question your motives doesn't mean I question everyone's motives who'd vote no to this question.

There's that ego again. You're the one that brought up shiva. I just talked about internet superheroes. I guess that was your assumption. Whoopsy.

:smileymob:

[Matt]

"Anyone that argues that stealing is wrong is trying to inflate themselves. "
-Pete35

Apparently "anyone" is Pete, and only Pete.

Oh the hilarity.

[35Pete]

You are looking pretty stupid here. You talk about taking the money soley for you own benefit. I call you on it. So you question MY character.

Talk about turning shit on it's head.

[Matt]

Sigh

[HURLS]

Saying you wouldn't keep the money is 1) as he said, trying to make you seem so wonderful, on a stupid internet Board mind you, or 2) as I said, total bullshit. Keep spouting Pete, even the rich BillsMan would keep a C Note he found after a dude dropped it at the Bar. The thousands he rakes in from people here isn't Stealing? He ain't working for it, that's for sure.

[35Pete]

"Anyone that argues that stealing is wrong is trying to inflate themselves. "
-Pete35

Apparently "anyone" is Pete, and only Pete.

Oh the hilarity.

Now you are acting like a little jerk.

You can't take something completely out of context that was posted in the last page. It's too easy to go check and then makes you look even more stupid.

[Matt]

Now you are acting like a little jerk.

You can't take something completely out of context that was posted in the last page. It's too easy to go check and then makes you look even more stupid.

Am I little because I am younger then you? Is that one of your silly, baseless assumptions? Or is it because I called you a big, dumb shit earlier? Because in terms of size I was referring to the fact that you're a shit (a big one), not a big individual who just so happens to be a shit.

This is awesome. You wouldn't steal a million dollars but you're perfectly willing to play this "jerk" game with me and still consider yourself a good person. Yeah, there isn't any irony from YOUR AWESOME GENERATION whatsoever.

[uppy]

America first baby !!!

[HURLS]

Am I little because I am younger then you? Is that one of your silly, baseless assumptions? Or is it because I called you a big, dumb shit earlier? Because in terms of size I was referring to the fact that you're a shit (a big one), not a big individual who just so happens to be a shit.

This is awesome. You wouldn't steal a million dollars but you're perfectly willing to play this "jerk" game with me and still consider yourself a good person. Yeah, there isn't any irony from YOUR AWESOME GENERATION whatsoever.

Actually I'm from his generation and take offense to you lumping me in with his holier than thou-ness. People who would turn the money in are flat-out stupid, or lying to themselves. End of discussion.

[Matt]

Actually I'm from his generation and take offense to you lumping me in with his holier than thou-ness. People who would turn the money in are flat-out stupid, or lying to themselves. End of discussion.

I have no problems with his/your generation, however old you guys are. He was the first one to say "wait, a second, shiva and I are from an age of people who..."

And I just find that to be comical because it completely alleviates the responsibility from any sort of mistakes that your generation makes because of his "holier than thou-ness", and sort of gives off this implication then I'm from an age of people who are like an incoming anti-christ that threatens any established moral truth.

Didn't people say that about the Hippy movement?

It's hogwash, he was stroking himself. I respect older people but I don't like to think of it that way, I just respect who gives respect back. :) But if he wants to play that card I'm willing to play as well.

[Green Lantern]

I have no problems with his/your generation, however old you guys are. He was the first one to say "wait, a second, shiva and I are from an age of people who..."

And I just find that to be comical because it completely alleviates the responsibility from any sort of mistakes that your generation makes because of his "holier than thou-ness", and sort of gives off this implication then I'm from an age of people who are like an incoming anti-christ that threatens any established moral truth.

Didn't people say that about the Hippy movement?

It's hogwash, he was stroking himself. I respect older people but I don't like to think of it that way, I just respect who gives respect back. :) But if he wants to play that card I'm willing to play as well.


Showing respect to people is a reflection on you, not a judgment call.

[Matt]

As the moral superheroes of PR & S like to clamor, the internet is entirely an entirely different story.

[emo]

I can honestly say that there have been many times in my life that I would have taken the money and many times in which I wouldn't.

It really depends what mood you catch me in, I guess. Even if I took it, I'd have no allusions of being justified (uppy.)

this is a great thought.

it really does depend on the mood.

for instance right now I am looking at about 200k for undergrad and law school. I'm going to be a public defender, so yeah right now I'd click that. 10 years from now? maybe a different answer. if things work out my loans are paid and I'm making nice coin, nope, not in a million years.

[Green Lantern]

this is a great thought.

it really does depend on the mood.

for instance right now I am looking at about 200k for undergrad and law school. I'm going to be a public defender, so yeah right now I'd click that. 10 years from now? maybe a different answer. if things work out my loans are paid and I'm making nice coin, nope, not in a million years.

Don't most people do public defending as a service back to the community, not as their main source of case-work?

[nehemiah]

Huh? Dude, this must be a Catholic reflex or something.

You're saying that it's only the fear of being caught that prevents everyone from being a thieving oppressor.

Some of us HAVE made decisions for ethical reasons that adversly affected our pocketbooks.i'm saying a million bucks is worth more than 1,000 kids.

it's got nothing to do w/ being caught, for the overwhelming majority of posters here. i know we do have some altruists.

and i have made just any many decisions turning down better money for ethical reasons. i'm just being honest.

[deconstruction]

I have no problems with his/your generation, however old you guys are. He was the first one to say "wait, a second, shiva and I are from an age of people who..."

And I just find that to be comical because it completely alleviates the responsibility from any sort of mistakes that your generation makes because of his "holier than thou-ness", and sort of gives off this implication then I'm from an age of people who are like an incoming anti-christ that threatens any established moral truth.

Didn't people say that about the Hippy movement?

It's hogwash, he was stroking himself. I respect older people but I don't like to think of it that way, I just respect who gives respect back. :) But if he wants to play that card I'm willing to play as well.

Frankly, IMO, you old time 12th Generation boomers have brought nothing but misfortune to the country. In fact, the last thing that you guys do is take responsibility for your mistakes . . . in fact, I happen to think that between Clinton and Bush, you have the two perfect representitives of the Boomer mentality: its all about me except when it comes time to take responsibility.

[K-Gun]

i'm saying a million bucks is worth more than 1,000 kids.

it's got nothing to do w/ being caught, for the overwhelming majority of posters here. i know we do have some altruists.

and i have made just any many decisions turning down better money for ethical reasons. i'm just being honest.

i don't ****ing believe you. i know what you do for a living, if you so choose you could make a million dollars more over the next 40 years by being a lawyer instead. yet you do what you do.

[nehemiah]

i don't ****ing believe you. i know what you do for a living, if you so choose you could make a million dollars more over the next 40 years by being a lawyer instead. yet you do what you do.but we're talking easy money, man.

no muss, no fuss.

i would take it in a second and not think twice.

[Mouldsie]

They probably wouldn't be starving if they had a million dollars to begin with.

ok so lets say those 1000 kids had 1000 bucks each before the button is pushed

then that makes it ok to steal from them and ensure their 10 years of misery?

[Matt]

ok so lets say those 1000 kids had 1000 bucks each before the button is pushed

then that makes it ok to steal from them and ensure their 10 years of misery?

no, stealing is not okay.

[Mouldsie]

I dont like the stupid generation stuff thats thrown around (the stanford experiemtn and others were done back in the day) but I'm a little stunned by the results b.c like aqua said I expected more liars :D

[Mouldsie]

ok so why wouldnt it be stealing?

[Lucidvizion]

Call me a liar, call me stupid, call me whatever...

I would decline the offer in a heartbeat without needing to think on it, without an ounce of regret or remorse.

[Matt]

ok so why wouldnt it be stealing?

in a situation in which the money wasn't theres to begin with, but just money, i would take it before i would give it to them.

if the money belonged to them i wouldn't take it.

i've said this at least once in this thread man.

[Mouldsie]

yea ik then you make contradictory statements and confuse people like me

Originally Posted by tragichero
They probably wouldn't be starving if they had a million dollars to begin with.
you got some 'splainin to do


to me there is a causal connection between pushing the button and bringing negative actions to these kids....

even if the money was just floating, i would need for clarification on how my clicking affects them.
are they already in bad condition or are they living comfortably but will become starving and homeless if i say yes?
if it's the latter i could never take the money, if its the former the investment idea is pretty good

[Matt]

yea ik then you make contradictory statements and confuse people like me


you got some 'splainin to do

'splainin:

i read the original question differently then most other people.

i read it as "just money", not money that belonged to the african children. your life isn't like mine and to make the assumption that my life is better then there's simply on what you know: i'm an american and have access to the internet can sometimes be wrong.

i made my vote based on that.

then pete and some others clarified what they saw the post as, and under that assumption, i wouldn't take it, as that would be stealing. but under that assumption, i was also just pointing out that i thought it was silly to use "african children", as that kind of implies need (otherwise why not use swiss children, as i used in my previous example), but if the african children already had a million dollars, they obviously wouldn't be needy. which is why i thought he meant that the money was "just money" not "their money".

if i'm still confusing you sorry. i really can't believe that required that amount of explanation but if we're still not seeing eye to eye i'll continue to try and clarify.

[Mouldsie]

i see


what about the button causing the harmful effect? thats how i read it.
how could anyone justify making someones life miserable in order to make financial gain? i don't care how shitty my life is, hurting 10 other people to make mine easier is wrong.

[Matt]

i see


what about the button causing the harmful effect? thats how i read it.
how could anyone justify making someones life miserable in order to make financial gain? i don't care how shitty my life is, hurting 10 other people to make mine easier is wrong.

we fundamentally disagree on that aspect.

i care how shitty my life is.

to each their own!

[uppy]

I can honestly say that there have been many times in my life that I would have taken the money and many times in which I wouldn't.

It really depends what mood you catch me in, I guess. Even if I took it, I'd have no allusions of being justified (uppy.)

I'm not justifying any thing If I had a chance to give the money to American

kids over kids form a differn't country I'd do it in a minute, after taking my

finders fee.

[uppy]

but we're talking easy money, man.

no muss, no fuss.

i would take it in a second and not think twice.

:rofl:

[FamousAmos]

Then you are a liberal. :D No seriously. Most liberals feel a lot of guilt about that stuff.

I don't feel a damn bit of guilt about my success. Nor should I.

And they are not blessings I am afraid to say. To the contrary. Nothing was dropped in my lap.


Not exactly Pete! I'm a Conservative by choice and a Irish Catholic by birth. The double whammy in terms of guilt.

I feel guilt because I'm sitting at home drinking a brew while people in Darfur (for example) are suffering because I'm not doing anything to help their cause or not choosing to do anything. I'm just content to be in my position, relatively speaking.

I feel guilt because I supported a president who fabricated a cause for war. But I still hate the French!

Most of all, I feel guilt for everything I'm not supposed to be doing as a Catholic so when it comes to deciidng whether or not to take money that goes to (supposedly) starving kids in Africa I wouldn't do it and I feel even worse that kids are in a position of poverty to begin with and I'm not doing anything about it.

[35Pete]

Not exactly Pete! I'm a Conservative by choice and a Irish Catholic by birth. The double whammy in terms of guilt.

I feel guilt because I'm sitting at home drinking a brew while people in Darfur (for example) are suffering because I'm not doing anything to help their cause or not choosing to do anything. I'm just content to be in my position, relatively speaking.

I feel guilt because I supported a president who fabricated a cause for war. But I still hate the French!

Most of all, I feel guilt for everything I'm not supposed to be doing as a Catholic so when it comes to deciidng whether or not to take money that goes to (supposedly) starving kids in Africa I wouldn't do it and I feel even worse that kids are in a position of poverty to begin with and I'm not doing anything about it.

I find all the hand-wringing over all the world's problems and people claiming to "care" to be absolutely nauseating while a mass slaughter still goes on in Darfar and all you hear from that crowd is "crickets".

Where are the activists demanding air time and action on Darfar?

That confuses the hell out of me. And the only people to bring it up have been nehe and I and a small handful of others. It is THE TOPIC and yet no one seems to care.

Why?

No power can be derived from this "cause". Doesn't effect the kind of change that some demand on their issues. Yet they "care".

No way to embarrass or smear the US. That's why.

What's happened in Darfar is an abomination. Purely no way to describe it. But tell me bro. Where is the outrage?

[uppy]

I find all the hand-wringing over all the world's problems and people claiming to "care" to be absolutely nauseating while a mass slaughter still goes on in Darfar and all you hear from that crowd is "crickets".

Where are the activists demanding air time and action on Darfar?

That confuses the hell out of me. And the only people to bring it up have been nehe and I and a small handful of others. It is THE TOPIC and yet no one seems to care.

Why?

No power can be derived from this "cause". Doesn't effect the kind of change that some demand on their issues. Yet they "care".

No way to embarrass or smear the US. That's why.

What's happened in Darfar is an abomination. Purely no way to describe it. But tell me bro. Where is the outrage?

Outstanding question Pete.

[uppy]

I feel guilt because I supported a president who fabricated a cause for war. But I still hate the French!



Did GWB fabricate the attacks on 9/11 or the bombing on the USS Cole ?

Or was it just a bad dream I had ?

[FamousAmos]

I find all the hand-wringing over all the world's problems and people claiming to "care" to be absolutely nauseating while a mass slaughter still goes on in Darfar and all you hear from that crowd is "crickets".

Where are the activists demanding air time and action on Darfar?

That confuses the hell out of me. And the only people to bring it up have been nehe and I and a small handful of others. It is THE TOPIC and yet no one seems to care.

Why?

No power can be derived from this "cause". Doesn't effect the kind of change that some demand on their issues. Yet they "care".

No way to embarrass or smear the US. That's why.

What's happened in Darfar is an abomination. Purely no way to describe it. But tell me bro. Where is the outrage?

The same reason Pete, it took America in the 40's an attack on our own soil to pay attention to what the Nazis were doing to the jews, gays and gypsies. Because it didn't effect us in America, we turned a blind eye to what the Germans were doing. (But Hisotry, I think, is Gibby's claim to fame! :-) I think that's what was happening. Same thing with this Darfur situation. Christ, I only know about it in passing, I know nothing of the particulars. People in this country, especially conservatives, would rather focus on Iraq than Darfur because if we acknowledge what is happening there than we would have to take a stand and care about it.

The less we know, the less we feel responsible for other people's problems. I think that story about that person getting beat up and killed while other people living in adjacent apartments who listened to what was happening but never called the cops. Why? Because they didnt want the trouble. But if we pretend we are not noticing what is going on, we can live our lives without guilt. The feeling is, "Hey it's not our problem, why should we care!"

JKig said I could give a donation to people in need. 300 dollars I think. But, is that enough? If I give 10 dollars a week in church to charity, should I feel smitten with self?

Sometimes I think just going to work and teaching kids is enough. But there are bigger fish to fry, like overseas.

Where is the line between feeling proud of yourself for giving back and just doing your part? What do you think Pete?

[uppy]

The same reason Pete, it took America in the 40's an attack on our own soil to pay attention to what the Nazis were doing to the jews, gays and gypsies. Because it didn't effect us in America, we turned a blind eye to what the Germans were doing. (But Hisotry, I think, is Gibby's claim to fame! :-) I think that's what was happening. Same thing with this Darfur situation. Christ, I only know about it in passing, I know nothing of the particulars. People in this country, especially conservatives, would rather focus on Iraq than Darfur because if we acknowledge what is happening there than we would have to take a stand and care about it.

The less we know, the less we feel responsible for other people's problems. I think that story about that person getting beat up and killed while other people living in adjacent apartments who listened to what was happening but never called the cops. Why? Because they didnt want the trouble. But if we pretend we are not noticing what is going on, we can live our lives without guilt. The feeling is, "Hey it's not our problem, why should we care!"

JKig said I could give a donation to people in need. 300 dollars I think. But, is that enough? If I give 10 dollars a week in church to charity, should I feel smitten with self?

Sometimes I think just going to work and teaching kids is enough. But there are bigger fish to fry, like overseas.

Where is the line between feeling proud of yourself for giving back and just doing your part? What do you think Pete?

You post this diatribe and yet you drink the koolaid.

LMAO

[FamousAmos]

You post this diatribe and yet you drink the koolaid.

LMAO

Laughing at what exactly? Im being sincere here Uppy.

You said diatribe, I looked that up because A) i have been drinking and B) more importantly, I didnt know what it meant

diatribe: a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism (dictionary.com first entry)

Dude, I'm not bitter Uppy. No criticism. Just reflecting on how I view the world. I'm a conservative for a variety of reasons. Mostly because I'm Catholic and I dont believe in abortion and pro gay rights and i did believe in our president mostly because of what Powell said in his bid for an Iraq war presentation. It was very persuasive! I remember writing a school newspaper article on reasons to go to war, an editiorial. I talked about everything Powell said: remote control un manned vehicles carrrying chemical weapons, the photos of supposed mass weapon stockpiles, and some others I cant remember because I think that was 2003.

Here's where I think you are going with this: I voted for Bush, I believed in his reasoning for the war (not what this thread is about, I know) but I have changed my mind on some of his doctrines regarding the war. it's my right to do that, IMO. But you think I should stick with Pres. Bush's ideas. I should be loyal to him because Im a conservative. Hell no! I like some of his policies, enough to vote for him in 2004. But damn man, I dont agree with some of the stuff he is doing lately. Doesnt mean I'm a bad conservative. Dont give me that shit, Uppy.

[mighty peace warrior]

being thankful and feeling guilty are not the same thing.

[uppy]

Laughing at what exactly? Im being sincere here Uppy.

You said diatribe, I looked that up because A) i have been drinking and B) more importantly, I didnt know what it meant

diatribe: a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism (dictionary.com first entry)

Dude, I'm not bitter Uppy. No criticism. Just reflecting on how I view the world. I'm a conservative for a variety of reasons. Mostly because I'm Catholic and I dont believe in abortion and pro gay rights and i did believe in our president mostly because of what Powell said in his bid for an Iraq war presentation. It was very persuasive! I remember writing a school newspaper article on reasons to go to war, an editiorial. I talked about everything Powell said: remote control un manned vehicles carrrying chemical weapons, the photos of supposed mass weapon stockpiles, and some others I cant remember because I think that was 2003.

Here's where I think you are going with this: I voted for Bush, I believed in his reasoning for the war (not what this thread is about, I know) but I have changed my mind on some of his doctrines regarding the war. it's my right to do that, IMO. But you think I should stick with Pres. Bush's ideas. I should be loyal to him because Im a conservative. Hell no! I like some of his policies, enough to vote for him in 2004. But damn man, I dont agree with some of the stuff he is doing lately. Doesnt mean I'm a bad conservative. Dont give me that shit, Uppy.


Great post and I respect what you said in it ,however my diatribe

remark was in responce to the post you made to Pete. ;)

[FamousAmos]

Im pissed that because i am Conservative that people dont think I give a damn about other important issues going on in the country and world. What just happened in Va Tech? I'm sickened by it. It's like, because I am conservative, than I only think about myself and the greater good of America. Liberals, on the other hand, are all about being the moral police of the decisions made by conservatives. What we do wrong is quickly scooped up by liberals to tell us all about it. it's all about accountability. Liberals feel we as conservatives are not accountable for our actions. That's bullshit and an unfair generalization.

So as far as this million dollars for poor Africans are concerned, the bigger question is why do they need it in the first place and what can we do about it? Im sick of being individually accountable for a whole group of people's problems in society. Im asking, tell me what should I do to get people off my back for not doing my part. What Can I do to live a peacefull life without people telling me that I should be doing more. Because Im college kid just trying to get my life going.

[FamousAmos]

Great post and I respect what you said in it ,however my diatribe

remark was in responce to the post you made to Pete. ;)

okay uppy thanks!

[Mouldsie]

Laughing at what exactly? Im being sincere here Uppy.

You said diatribe, I looked that up because A) i have been drinking and B) more importantly, I didnt know what it meant

diatribe: a bitter, sharply abusive denunciation, attack, or criticism (dictionary.com first entry)

Dude, I'm not bitter Uppy. No criticism. Just reflecting on how I view the world. I'm a conservative for a variety of reasons. Mostly because I'm Catholic and I dont believe in abortion and pro gay rights and i did believe in our president mostly because of what Powell said in his bid for an Iraq war presentation. It was very persuasive! I remember writing a school newspaper article on reasons to go to war, an editiorial. I talked about everything Powell said: remote control un manned vehicles carrrying chemical weapons, the photos of supposed mass weapon stockpiles, and some others I cant remember because I think that was 2003.

Here's where I think you are going with this: I voted for Bush, I believed in his reasoning for the war (not what this thread is about, I know) but I have changed my mind on some of his doctrines regarding the war. it's my right to do that, IMO. But you think I should stick with Pres. Bush's ideas. I should be loyal to him because Im a conservative. Hell no! I like some of his policies, enough to vote for him in 2004. But damn man, I dont agree with some of the stuff he is doing lately. Doesnt mean I'm a bad conservative. Dont give me that shit, Uppy.

closet liberal!

[Mouldsie]

famous, you should take some philosophy courses... just for fun and because they might help you sort out your ideology and loyalties and examine which ones are worth keeping and which ones arent. i have taken a bunch in the last few years and it's fascinating and eye opening if you get good teachers and discussions.... along with psychology they are the only courses i've enjoyed in my educational career and the only ones that really taught me anything valuable.

lastly, dont get so caught up in labels.

just trying to give any small advice i can offer.

but hey maybe its crap advice

[35Pete]

The same reason Pete, it took America in the 40's an attack on our own soil to pay attention to what the Nazis were doing to the jews, gays and gypsies. Because it didn't effect us in America, we turned a blind eye to what the Germans were doing. (But Hisotry, I think, is Gibby's claim to fame! :-) I think that's what was happening. Same thing with this Darfur situation. Christ, I only know about it in passing, I know nothing of the particulars. People in this country, especially conservatives, would rather focus on Iraq than Darfur because if we acknowledge what is happening there than we would have to take a stand and care about it.

The less we know, the less we feel responsible for other people's problems. I think that story about that person getting beat up and killed while other people living in adjacent apartments who listened to what was happening but never called the cops. Why? Because they didnt want the trouble. But if we pretend we are not noticing what is going on, we can live our lives without guilt. The feeling is, "Hey it's not our problem, why should we care!"

JKig said I could give a donation to people in need. 300 dollars I think. But, is that enough? If I give 10 dollars a week in church to charity, should I feel smitten with self?

Sometimes I think just going to work and teaching kids is enough. But there are bigger fish to fry, like overseas.

Where is the line between feeling proud of yourself for giving back and just doing your part? What do you think Pete?

I don't believe in "giving back". Giving back for what? What pray tell? That means that somehow I took something. Which I didn't. How about giving for the sake of it being the right thing to do. As policy I never talk about what charities I donate to or how much. To me that's like the celebrity giving a boatload of money then setting up a press conference and an honorary dinner for him or her (makes you wonder what the real motivation for giving is?).

Nor do I believe in an obligation to give. Nope. Giving is something that comes from absolute free will. You get no tangible benefit from it, no recognition, no return on investment. You just do it so that you can make a small, albiet important difference in an issue.

I also won't give to wasted efforts. The criteria for my charities are .1) low administrative overhead, and 2.) the gift makes a tangible difference. In general I don't give to charities that "give a man a fish". To me that's a handout and not a handup.

[Green Lantern]

Im pissed that because i am Conservative that people dont think I give a damn about other important issues going on in the country and world. What just happened in Va Tech? I'm sickened by it. It's like, because I am conservative, than I only think about myself and the greater good of America. Liberals, on the other hand, are all about being the moral police of the decisions made by conservatives. What we do wrong is quickly scooped up by liberals to tell us all about it. it's all about accountability. Liberals feel we as conservatives are not accountable for our actions. That's bullshit and an unfair generalization.

So as far as this million dollars for poor Africans are concerned, the bigger question is why do they need it in the first place and what can we do about it? Im sick of being individually accountable for a whole group of people's problems in society. Im asking, tell me what should I do to get people off my back for not doing my part. What Can I do to live a peacefull life without people telling me that I should be doing more. Because Im college kid just trying to get my life going.

This is what conservatives do to liberals too. The job of the opposition is to keep you honest and make you explain your actions.

That is politics in a free society. You should thank them, I think.

[Green Lantern]

I don't believe in "giving back". Giving back for what? What pray tell? That means that somehow I took something. Which I didn't. How about giving for the sake of it being the right thing to do. As policy I never talk about what charities I donate to or how much. To me that's like the celebrity giving a boatload of money then setting up a press conference and an honorary dinner for him or her (makes you wonder what the real motivation for giving is?).

Nor do I believe in an obligation to give. Nope. Giving is something that comes from absolute free will. You get no tangible benefit from it, no recognition, no return on investment. You just do it so that you can make a small, albiet important difference in an issue.

I also won't give to wasted efforts. The criteria for my charities are .1) low administrative overhead, and 2.) the gift makes a tangible difference. In general I don't give to charities that "give a man a fish". To me that's a handout and not a handup.

You give back in gratitude for the society that raised you, Socrates. You give it your life if you must.

[35Pete]

You give back in gratitude for the society that raised you, Socrates. You give it your life if you must.

Society didn't raise me. That's a sound bite that has no basis in fact.

[Green Lantern]

Society didn't raise me. That's a sound bite that has no basis in fact.

They didn't abort you. FACT.

[35Pete]

They didn't abort you. FACT.

Myth. A soundbite with no basis in fact. Just a setup for demanding that you comply with the "best interests of society" or whatever the hell that bullshit means.

Society did nothing for me. I owe it nothing more than to follow a moral life. Defined as do no harm and do not take what is not yours.

We are not "all in this together". You guys that think so can form a co-op under your own free will. I have no issue with that. As long as it is voluntary.

[Green Lantern]

Myth. A soundbite with no basis in fact. Just a setup for demanding that you comply with the "best interests of society" or whatever the hell that bullshit means.

Society did nothing for me. I owe it nothing more than to follow a moral life. Defined as do no harm and do not take what is not yours.

We are not "all in this together". You guys that think so can form a co-op under your own free will. I have no issue with that. As long as it is voluntary.

Pete, really, sincerely, this is sad. Do you not see that on the one hand you claim neglect and a childhood in the "state of nature" where you had to choose food or shelter...a form of abuse in a civilized society, and yet when you are asked your solutions for problems in the country, you say that you fought and were made strong and that others should go through your gauntlet too rather than be aided.

This looks to me like a paradox, your blind spot.


I do not expect you to agree, you scorn sympathy.

gotta go to work-

Aqua

[35Pete]

Pete, really, sincerely, this is sad. Do you not see that on the one hand you claim neglect and a childhood in the "state of nature" where you had to choose food or shelter...a form of abuse in a civilized society, and yet when you are asked your solutions for problems in the country, you say that you fought and were made strong and that others should go through your gauntlet too rather than be aided.

This looks to me like a paradox, your blind spot.


I do not expect you to agree, you scorn sympathy.

gotta go to work-

Aqua
The individual aqua. The individual. Take away personal accountability, take away personal responsibility, and we have a collective of whiners that blame all their ills on everything and everyone but themselves. Or worse. The ethereal, intangible boogeyman called society. And the kick in the nuts is some demanding deference and "repayment" to this abstraction. What a bunch of horseshit.

That's a recipe for disaster. Still, what do I owe "society"? Really? What do I owe?

Nothing, that's it. Nothing. Until you can answer this question we have nothing to talk about.

You rise and fall by your own sweat, your own efforts. The buck stops here. That simple. Sometimes things are that simple.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Society didn't raise me. That's a sound bite that has no basis in fact.

What do I owe Society? Really, What do I owe?

Until you can answer this question we have nothing to talk about.

If you claim you do not owe society a damn thing then why did you take money from society - through it's taxpayers - to fund your alleged Masters education?

You admitted in an earlier thead, that you purposefully participated in a taxpayer funded social program through NASA - which is publicly owned and publicly financed - to pay for your Masters portion of your post-secondary education.

As usual, 35pete can't possibly mean what he says and is lying his ass off.

Posted by 35pete
My Master's was free. NASA paid for it in exchange for research and the university waived everything else (and paid a stipend) for me to teach one class a semester.

Post #77 everyone. Look it up yourselves.

http://www.buffalorange.com/showthread.php?t=101916&page=3

[Mouldsie]

The individual aqua. The individual. Take away personal accountability, take away personal responsibility, and we have a collective of whiners that blame all their ills on everything and everyone but themselves. Or worse. The ethereal, intangible boogeyman called society. And the kick in the nuts is some demanding deference and "repayment" to this abstraction. What a bunch of horseshit.

That's a recipe for disaster. Still, what do I owe "society"? Really? What do I owe?

Nothing, that's it. Nothing. Until you can answer this question we have nothing to talk about.

You rise and fall by your own sweat, your own efforts. The buck stops here. That simple. Sometimes things are that simple.unless society has conditioned you to think in such a way.



OT and on my mind since i just got back from class...
i have to say listening to people in my pluralism classes is tragic. the brainwashed will never know that they are so :D

[Green Lantern]

The individual aqua. The individual. Take away personal accountability, take away personal responsibility, and we have a collective of whiners that blame all their ills on everything and everyone but themselves. Or worse. The ethereal, intangible boogeyman called society. And the kick in the nuts is some demanding deference and "repayment" to this abstraction. What a bunch of horseshit.

That's a recipe for disaster. Still, what do I owe "society"? Really? What do I owe?

Nothing, that's it. Nothing. Until you can answer this question we have nothing to talk about.

You rise and fall by your own sweat, your own efforts. The buck stops here. That simple. Sometimes things are that simple.

You have to feel that you owe. You need to see it, understand it. That is my point.

I never said we should legislate paying something back, neither did Amos.

Do you not know that you owe your society for the fact that you can go to work and expect to get paid by your boss at the end of the week? Our society runs largely on good faith and expectation. That is the culture in this country; and you take it for granted. When I was in Venezuela, you had to bring your own sheets to the hospital because the employees would steal the ones bought for the place and sell them on the black market for extra cash. When there is a car accident, there is no swapping of insurance cards and a police report...all people in both cars go to jail until what happened is figured out by the police.

You, Pete, should appreciate where you live and "give back" not because someone "gave" you something any more tangible than a modern, fairly just, fairly civilized country whose culture has been cultivated over hundreds of years by others who FREELY give back to their society because they are enlightened enough to see what a great place this is and they want to pass that greatness on. You should give because you should see that contributing to the civility and facilitating a better life for others is in your interest, short and long term, and the interest of this country and the culture within it.

Saying, "it's a cold, hard world," only helps to make it just that.

Whether you realize it or not, this aspect of your pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps mentality is actually detrimental to the very society that allowed you all this opportunity to rise above the circumstance of your birth.

And if you think you did it without the conditions of society set to ALLOW you to climb out of the gutter, then there is your blind spot. There are some cultures that make a point of keeping you under their heel if you were born there or once they've got you there. Remember that.

[K-Gun]

Myth. A soundbite with no basis in fact. Just a setup for demanding that you comply with the "best interests of society" or whatever the hell that bullshit means.

Society did nothing for me. I owe it nothing more than to follow a moral life. Defined as do no harm and do not take what is not yours.

We are not "all in this together". You guys that think so can form a co-op under your own free will. I have no issue with that. As long as it is voluntary.

You never answered me. Unlike 60% of the world, you had parents to teach you how to read. If you didn't, you be mopping floors right now.

You were thron into the wealthiest nation in the history of humanity, you opertunity is directly due to that fact. Think you'd be an engineer if you were born poor in Nigeria? To overcome the lack of education from an early age you'd have to have an inate intelligence quotian through the roof.

You don't give enough credit to the cultural determination. Think about it, where would you be if your parents couldn't read, and you had no school to go to?

[35Pete]

You never answered me. Unlike 60% of the world, you had parents to teach you how to read. If you didn't, you be mopping floors right now.

You were thron into the wealthiest nation in the history of humanity, you opertunity is directly due to that fact. Think you'd be an engineer if you were born poor in Nigeria? To overcome the lack of education from an early age you'd have to have an inate intelligence quotian through the roof.

You don't give enough credit to the cultural determination. Think about it, where would you be if your parents couldn't read, and you had no school to go to?
"Society" didn't spit me out of my mother's womb and smack dab into the United States.

Ohh, I am thankful alright. But society does not get the credit.

Chance does.

[K-Gun]

"Society" didn't spit me out of my mother's womb and smack dab into the United States.

Ohh, I am thankful alright. But society does not get the credit.

Chance does.

you're a product of your culture. You still didn't answer me, where would you be without parents who taught you how to read, and schools to educate you?

You're just a mimic machine until age 8 or so. Everything you pick up before then is a result of your society, you don't reason until that age. FACT.

If you don't aquire a language by age 8, you simply can't aquire a language. FACT.

You are a lucky bastard to have been born in the society you were. FACT. (clarence schools, i'll bet that's where you got good at math. you certainly didn't teach yourself algabra, trig, and calc.)

[K-Gun]

bump, for Pete

[35Pete]

you're a product of your culture. You still didn't answer me, where would you be without parents who taught you how to read, and schools to educate you?

You're just a mimic machine until age 8 or so. Everything you pick up before then is a result of your society, you don't reason until that age. FACT.

If you don't aquire a language by age 8, you simply can't aquire a language. FACT.

You are a lucky bastard to have been born in the society you were. FACT. (clarence schools, i'll bet that's where you got good at math. you certainly didn't teach yourself algabra, trig, and calc.)

Actually my HS grades were awful. I was too stoned to care. But I always seemed to ace that regents exam and move forward.

Like I said. Chance was on my side. I wasn't born in Africa. Or some other undeveloped hellhole like Canada.

Seriously. I should pay back "society" because I was born here? Come on....

[Green Lantern]

Actually my HS grades were awful. I was too stoned to care. But I always seemed to ace that regents exam and move forward.

Like I said. Chance was on my side. I wasn't born in Africa. Or some other undeveloped hellhole like Canada.

Seriously. I should pay back "society" because I was born here? Come on....

Chance was on your side for being born in a society that allows you to do the things you have done but instead of being grateful to that society, which allowed you to do the things you have done, you are grateful to chance.

Chance gave you intelligence, a random combination, not your parents...but you should thank your parents for being born anyway.

[Green Lantern]

The individual aqua. The individual. Take away personal accountability, take away personal responsibility, and we have a collective of whiners that blame all their ills on everything and everyone but themselves. Or worse. The ethereal, intangible boogeyman called society. And the kick in the nuts is some demanding deference and "repayment" to this abstraction. What a bunch of horseshit.

That's a recipe for disaster. Still, what do I owe "society"? Really? What do I owe?

Nothing, that's it. Nothing. Until you can answer this question we have nothing to talk about.

You rise and fall by your own sweat, your own efforts. The buck stops here. That simple. Sometimes things are that simple.

You like the founding fathers, right? And they all read Locke, right? The Second Treatise was one of the most popular books of the day in America. And yet you still think you have no duty to society?

[35Pete]

You like the founding fathers, right? And they all read Locke, right? The Second Treatise was one of the most popular books of the day in America. And yet you still think you have no duty to society?

Not in the financial sense, no.

Roads, bridges, protection? Yes.

Handouts and programs? Not a chance.

[Green Lantern]

Not in the financial sense, no.

Roads, bridges, protection? Yes.

Handouts and programs? Not a chance.


We have been talking about you, pete, not the government. Have you started "programs" somewhere?

You don't believe you have any obligation to society?

[35Pete]

We have been talking about you, pete, not the government. Have you started "programs" somewhere?

You don't believe you have any obligation to society?

Yes, but not in the sense that is spoken here.

[Green Lantern]

Yes, but not in the sense that is spoken here.

You began the assumption you are arguing against. FamousAmos said he thought we should give something back to society...no government in his post, no welfare in his post, just the notion of compassion. You claim you don't believe in "giving back" because society did nothing for you.

I posted the comment on Socrates.

Do you think you have any obligations to the society you live in? Not, an obligation to fund social programs.

[35Pete]

You began the assumption you are arguing against. FamousAmos said he thought we should give something back to society...no government in his post, no welfare in his post, just the notion of compassion. You claim you don't believe in "giving back" because society did nothing for you.

I posted the comment on Socrates.

Do you think you have any obligations to the society you live in? Not, an obligation to fund social programs.

Yes. I do. I should be a good person, swindle no one, and do no harm to anyone else. That's the best giving back you can ask for, no?

Do I help people? Certainly. But on a case by case basis, based on both merit and need, and not as a affirmation of "giving back to society".

[Green Lantern]

Yes. I do. I should be a good person, swindle no one, and do no harm to anyone else. That's the best giving back you can ask for, no?

Do I help people? Certainly. But on a case by case basis, based on both merit and need, and not as a affirmation of "giving back to society".

You know what, go get someone to ban me for the first time, you dipshit, your second paragraph IS giving back to society. Stupid mother ****er.

[uppy]

Libbies don't give money to Charities for the most part because

goverment is what they worship and its the fix all to them.

Its a joke to see them post about.... (giving something back to society)

since all they want is to take money from those who work hard...and to give

what is taken to lay abouts.

[uppy]

You know what, go get someone to ban me for the first time, you dipshit, your second paragraph IS giving back to society. Stupid mother ****er.

No one is going to ban you for being a dumb ass....you are safe..lol

[Green Lantern]

Libbies don't give money to Charities for the most part because

goverment is what they worship and its the fix all to them.

Its a joke to see them post about.... (giving something back to society)

since all they want is to take money from those who work hard...and to give

what is taken to lay abouts.

When did "obligation to society" become a catch-phrase for government programs and/or charities?


Do you have any obligations to society Upstart?

[Green Lantern]

No one is going to ban you for being a dumb ass....you are safe..lol

Says the man with a Ph.D. on the subject...

[uppy]

Says the man with a Ph.D. on the subject...

Take a few deep breaths my man.....LMAO

[35Pete]

You know what, go get someone to ban me for the first time, you dipshit, your second paragraph IS giving back to society. Stupid mother ****er.

Well well. A holier than thou type. Losing your cool like this is very unbecoming. It makes you look so holy and judgemental.

No. "Giving back to society" around here means not complaining when your taxes are raised by 8-10% you idealistic dipshit.

It's not very becoming of you when you are being a jerk.

[Green Lantern]

Well well. A holier than thou type. Losing your cool like this is very unbecoming. It makes you look so holy and judgemental.

No. "Giving back to society" around here means not complaining when your taxes are raised by 8-10% you idealistic dipshit.

It's not very becoming of you when you are being a jerk.

Well, well...I believe I specifically asked you my question with regards to you personally, you back-pedalling little *****.

[35Pete]

Well, well...I believe I specifically asked you my question with regards to you personally, you back-pedalling little *****.

No back peddling you self-righteous pompous ass.

Just not going to consent to the generally accepted definition of "giving back".

Amazing. Can't "win" your argument so you resort to name calling like a bratty 10 year old that didn't get his way.

How becoming of you.

[Green Lantern]

No back peddling you self-righteous pompous ass.

Just not going to consent to the generally accepted definition of "giving back".

Amazing. Can't "win" your argument so you resort to name calling like a bratty 10 year old that didn't get his way.

How becoming of you.

Third time: I defined "obligation to society" as NOT being taxes or government, as YOU owing something to society, and you still said "no" a number of times before changing you mind. Woman.

[35Pete]

Yes. I do. I should be a good person, swindle no one, and do no harm to anyone else. That's the best giving back you can ask for, no?

Do I help people? Certainly. But on a case by case basis, based on both merit and need, and not as a affirmation of "giving back to society".

Bump.

Read again. Obviously you have a comprehension problem.

Again. The childish insults. How old are you again?

Giving of your own out of free will, and not as what one would think is "required" is not an obligation in the sense that you insinuate.

Behaving like a reasonable and decent person to others is. If that's the rub then you are really being a dick.

[Green Lantern]

Bump.

Read again. Obviously you have a comprehension problem.

Again. The childish insults. How old are you again?

Giving of your own out of free will, and not as what one would think is "required" is not an obligation in the sense that you insinuate.

Behaving like a reasonable and decent person to others is. If that's the rub then you are really being a dick.

You are not this dumb. Mensa, my ass.

This is the post where you switched your answer and you post it as the example of my reading inability.

[35Pete]

You are not this dumb. Mensa, my ass.

This is the post where you switched your answer and you post it as the example of my reading inability.

Where do I say that "giving is an obligation".

I speak of behavior. Twist my words as you wish. You'll be pigheaded about it anyways.

I wonder how much those that demand an obligation to "give back" actually give back. I really have to wonder that.

When I do a reef cleanup while diving I don't think of it as an "obligation". When I volunteer for something I don't think of it as "my duty". "Obligations" in that sense are contrary to free will. Caving in to pressure to give by "society" is not "giving". It's acquiesing. No matter how worthy the cause.

[Green Lantern]

Where do I say that "giving is an obligation".

I speak of behavior. Twist my words as you wish. You'll be pigheaded about it anyways.

I wonder how much those that demand an obligation to "give back" actually give back. I really have to wonder that.

When I do a reef cleanup while diving I don't think of it as an "obligation". When I volunteer for something I don't think of it as "my duty". "Obligations" in that sense are contrary to free will. Caving in to pressure to give by "society" is not "giving". It's acquiesing. No matter how worthy the cause.


Again, obligation is not imposed from without.

There are no rights without concomitant obligations.

It is not my fault you don't own a dictionary and use your own definitions of words to argue with people.

[uppy]

When did "obligation to society" become a catch-phrase for government programs and/or charities?


Do you have any obligations to society Upstart?


I fill my role in society,I give to my church and they inturn give

to the needy as seen fit.Is that what you mean Aqua or is it some

utiopic ideal that we should be searching for ?

[Green Lantern]

I fill my role in society,I give to my church and they inturn give

to the needy as seen fit.Is that what you mean Aqua or is it some

utiopic ideal that we should be searching for ?

Uppy, you of all people MUST fulfill the obligations you have to society, being a veteran.

If you have a right to free speech, you are obliged to allow it for others, and even fight for them.

Fulfilling obligations is the only way to ensure your own freedom. You are vigilant for your neighbors with the unspoken understanding that they are being vigilant for you. That is how a civil society works. You can't legislate things people need to do to help each other out.

You teach your children and they do it freely because they have been enlightened to the fact that their freedom and liberty are dependent on the vigilance of not only themselves, but of those around them who look out for them to.

We are a community.

When you get to the stage of Pete and say that it is every man for himself, we are lost.