The Immaculate Conception.....

[TRIPLE P]

Every time I think about this is weirds me out a little....

So did God kind of rape Mary? I mean, without her knowing or concenting he impregnated her.....

If i was married and all the sudden my wife was pregnant and it wasn't mine I'd be a bit angry......I don't care how many angels came down and explained it to me....why my wife?

It just seems to me that God could have just as easily put Jesus on Earth instead of involve ing other people.

Is there a reason God chose Mary?

[nehemiah]

W.B. Yeats: Leda and the Swan

A sudden blow: the great wings beating still
Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed
By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill,
He holds her helpless breast upon his breast.

How can those terrified vague fingers push
The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?
And how can body, laid in that white rush,
But feel the strange heart beating where it lies?

A shudder in the loins engenders there
The broken wall, the burning roof and tower
And Agamemnon dead.
Being so caught up,
So mastered by the brute blood of the air,
Did she put on his knowledge with his power
Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?

[gilchristfan]

The Immaculate Conception actually refers to Mary being conceived without original sin.

One step removed, just thought I'd weird you out a little more.

[Gibby]

Every time I think about this is weirds me out a little....

So did God kind of rape Mary? I mean, without her knowing or concenting he impregnated her.....

If i was married and all the sudden my wife was pregnant and it wasn't mine I'd be a bit angry......I don't care how many angels came down and explained it to me....why my wife?

It just seems to me that God could have just as easily put Jesus on Earth instead of involve ing other people.

Is there a reason God chose Mary?

I was waiting for this, glad you finally asked. No she knew and then she said blessed am I among Women (gospel of Luke) Oh and Joseph and Mary weren't wed yet. They were betrothed. God chose Mary to fulfill dozens of old testament prophecy oh well I am sure Matt will answer much better than me.

[TRIPLE P]

So the immaculate conception was mary in HER mothers womb?

[matthew94]

Yes, Technically (I see Gil already pointed this out while I was typing), the "immaculate conception" is a Roman Catholic doctrine stating that Mary herself when conceived was miraculously conceived without sin. Most people assume the term refers to the virgin birth, but that is a totally different doctrine.

That being said, your questions are about the virgin birth. I will quote the passage that gives the most detail as to 'how' the conception took place:

The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God

The only real piece of information we can know for sure about this verse is that it is saying there was no human male involved in the conception. The child would be counted as God's child. What 'overshadowing' entails I doubt we can really ever know since it was a 1 time unique event, though I'm sure 'rape' is not the best term :)

And your info is a little off as far as her 'not knowing'. According to the passage, she was told about this before she conceived.

Your reaction would be similar to the reaction Joseph actually had. Scripture says, "Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly." (Though they were not yet married, betrothal in that culture was serious enough that it could only be cancelled by divorce). I'm sure Joseph did experience anger, frustration, confusion, embarressment, etc.

The question of why God didn't just beam Jesus down to earth is a good one that can be answered in a number of ways. Jesus, as a human being, didn't exist prior to his conception in Mary. The Word of God existed, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, but not a human 'Son' of God. Any appearance of that Person would have been a theophany (manifestation of God) moreso than God actually becoming flesh. A conception and birth was necessary because humans are conceived and born. The point was to create a mediator between God and man, a God-man. And only a true human qualifies. How could Jesus represent us on the cross if he wasn't really one of us? How could be be our example in life if he had skipped 30 years of it?

There are a number of legitimate reasons why God chose Mary
1) She was in David's line, so it fulfilled prophecy
2) She was a righteous/holy young woman
3) He could have chosen her for reasons we don't know
4) She was in the right time (for the 490 year prophecy) and place (nazareth-->bethlehem)

[gilchristfan]

I'm pretty sure it just means she was born without original sin, rather than a virgin birth, but I've heard it both ways.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

But as far as the Virgin Birth goes, I've seen enough supposedly virgin births over the years. DNA always comes to a different conclusion.

[K-Gun]

From my understanding, which I'm sure is totally wrong according to Gibby, Jesus was in part "the chosen one" because he descended from Abraham, through Isaac, and David and a bunch of others depending on which Gospel you read. Luke and Matthew differ by 12 or 13 generations if memory serves correctly, and they list very different people in Christ's family tree.

Anyways, I was always under the impression that it was Joseph that was related to the "chosen" bloodline. And from what I can tell in the story, he was. Which would be really strange, considering he would have had to fathered Jesus in order for his genes to pass to him. But now I am told that Mary and Joseph were half-brother and sister. That's a pretty good reason to claim God wasn't conceived by an earthly father, I'd say.

[matthew94]

JKIG, I find it hard to believe that you have not come across the prominent view that Matthew gives Joseph's genealogy and Luke gives Mary's. This explains the differences in genealogy from post-solomon onwards and has support in early christian and even jewish writings, not to mention the literary support of the passages themselves. Mary and Joseph were both from David, but they were not both from David's son, Solomon. Jesus, being the legal heir (passed paternally) of Joseph was, therefore, a legal descendant of David AND a blood descendant of David through Mary.

[K-Gun]

JKIG, I find it hard to believe that you have not come across the prominent view that Matthew gives Joseph's genealogy and Luke gives Mary's. This explains the differences in genealogy from post-solomon onwards and has support in early christian and even jewish writings, not to mention the literary support of the passages themselves. Mary and Joseph were both from David, but they were not both from David's son, Solomon. Jesus, being the legal heir (passed paternally) of Joseph was, therefore, a legal descendant of David AND a blood descendant of David through Mary.

Apologetics is so comical. I never thought that Jesus' bloodline was traced through Mary because both Gospels trace it through Joe.

Luke:

3:23. And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years: being (as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was of Heli, who was of Mathat,
Et ipse Iesus erat incipiens quasi annorum triginta ut putabatur filius Ioseph qui fuit Heli
Who was of Heli... St. Joseph, who by nature was the son of Jacob, (Matthew 1:16), in the account of the law, was son of Heli. For Heli and Jacob were brothers, by the same mother; and Heli, who was the elder, dying without issue, Jacob, as the law directed, married his widow: in consequence of such marriage, his son Joseph was reputed in the law the son of Heli.

3:24. Who was of Levi, who was of Melchi, who was of Janne, who was of Joseph,
Qui fuit Matthat qui fuit Levi qui fuit Melchi qui fuit Iannae qui fuit Ioseph

3:25. Who was of Mathathias, who was of Amos, who was of Nahum, who was of Hesli, who was of Nagge,
Qui fuit Matthathiae qui fuit Amos qui fuit Naum qui fuit Esli qui fuit Naggae

3:26. Who was of Mahath, who was of Mathathias, who was of Semei, who was of Joseph, who was of Juda,
Qui fuit Maath qui fuit Matthathiae qui fuit Semei qui fuit Iosech qui fuit Ioda

3:27. Who was of Joanna, who was of Reza, who was of Zorobabel, who was of Salathiel, who was of Neri,
Qui fuit Iohanna qui fuit Resa qui fuit Zorobabel qui fuit Salathihel qui fuit Neri

3:28. Who was of Melchi, who was of Addi, who was of Cosan, who was of Helmadan, who was of Her,
Qui fuit Melchi qui fuit Addi qui fuit Cosam qui fuit Helmadam qui fuit Her

3:29. Who was of Jesus, who was of Eliezer, who was of Jorim, who was of Mathat, who was of Levi,
Qui fuit Iesu qui fuit Eliezer qui fuit Iorim qui fuit Matthat qui fuit Levi

3:30. Who was of Simeon, who was of Judas, who was of Joseph, who was of Jona, who was of Eliakim,
Qui fuit Symeon qui fuit Iuda qui fuit Ioseph qui fuit Iona qui fuit Eliachim

3:31. Who was of Melea, who was of Menna, who was of Mathatha, who was of Nathan, who was of David,
Qui fuit Melea qui fuit Menna qui fuit Matthata qui fuit Nathan qui fuit David

3:32. Who was of Jesse, who was of Obed, who was of Booz, who was of Salmon, who was of Naasson,
Qui fuit Iesse qui fuit Obed qui fuit Booz qui fuit Salmon qui fuit Naasson

3:33. Who was of Aminadab, who was of Aram, who was of Esron, who was of Phares, who was of Judas,
Qui fuit Aminadab qui fuit Aram qui fuit Esrom qui fuit Phares qui fuit Iudae

3:34. Who was of Jacob, who was of Isaac, who was of Abraham, who was of Thare, who was of Nachor,
Qui fuit Iacob qui fuit Isaac qui fuit Abraham qui fuit Thare qui fuit Nachor

3:35. Who was of Sarug, who was of Ragau, who was of Phaleg, who was of Heber, who was of Sale,
Qui fuit Seruch qui fuit Ragau qui fuit Phalec qui fuit Eber qui fuit Sale

3:36. Who was of Cainan, who was of Arphaxad, who was of Sem, who was of Noe, who was of Lamech,
Qui fuit Cainan qui fuit Arfaxat qui fuit Sem qui fuit Noe qui fuit Lamech

3:37. Who was of Mathusale, who was of Henoch, who was of Jared, who was of Malaleel, who was of Cainan,
Qui fuit Mathusalae qui fuit Enoch qui fuit Iared qui fuit Malelehel qui fuit Cainan

3:38. Who was of Henos, who was of Seth, who was of Adam, who was of God.


Matthew:

1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[a] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

[JLB]

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Mary Mary!

[matthew94]

Apologetics is so comical. I never thought that Jesus' bloodline was traced through Mary because both Gospels trace it through Joe.

Luke:

3:23. And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years: being (as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was of Heli, who was of Mathat,

It's not apologetics. It's a legitimate understanding of the text. Back up for a second and think. The early church accepted both Matthew and Luke as authoritative accounts of Jesus background and life and yet took no issue with this so called 'contradiction'. There is plenty of literary evidence for taking Luke as Mary's genealogy.

a. The phrase ‘so it was thought’ speaks to an exception. there is no punctuation in the greek manuscripts. Your paranthesis are guesswork. Given the context, it makes for more sense to place them as follows:

And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years: being (as it was supposed the son of Joseph), who was of Heli, who was of Mathat

The context of the passage makes it clear that Jesus is NOT from Joseph, but to the general public of the day it was supposed that he was. But he was actually of (closest paternal relative) Heli (Mary's father).

b. Luke’s birth account tends to follow Mary’s perspective. If you read Matthew carefully, it's told from Joseph's perspective through and through. But Luke's is the opposite perspective, Mary's, thus, we have good reason to accept it as Mary's genealogy on that point alone.

c. Jewish custom left off the mother’s name from direct genealogy. Women were only mentioned as sidebars in hebrew genealogies. We wouldn't expect it to say Jesus, from Mary, from Heli. We must never demand what shouldn't be expected.

d. Even 1st century unbelievers and believers alike spoke of Heli was Mary’s father. This was not the only position taken, but it was a common understanding of the text, especially by those closest to the situation.

I find this position far more reasonable and evidential than the assumption that they are both Joseph's, especially in light of the fact that if neither genealogy is Mary's, we don't have a true genealogy of Jesus. Thinking, we understand that Matthew, writing to Jews, was most concerned with the legal aspect of Jesus claim to kingship where as Dr. Luke was simply concerned with describing the true humanity of Jesus.