Israel plans nuclear strike on Iran

[uppy]

Good news....thankyou Israel !

Uzi Mahnaimi, New York and Sarah Baxter, Washington



ISRAEL has drawn up secret plans to destroy Iran’s uranium enrichment facilities with tactical nuclear weapons.
Two Israeli air force squadrons are training to blow up an Iranian facility using low-yield nuclear “bunker-busters”, according to several Israeli military sources.



The attack would be the first with nuclear weapons since 1945, when the United States dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Israeli weapons would each have a force equivalent to one-fifteenth of the Hiroshima bomb.

Under the plans, conventional laser-guided bombs would open “tunnels” into the targets. “Mini-nukes” would then immediately be fired into a plant at Natanz, exploding deep underground to reduce the risk of radioactive fallout.

“As soon as the green light is given, it will be one mission, one strike and the Iranian nuclear project will be demolished,” said one of the sources.

more





http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2535310,00.html

[JLB]

Spiked you might get your wish wow my hats off great call.

They might just do it themselves you had that one pegged.

Upstart 8,000 just 2 more!!!!!!

[uppy]

Yup...it looks like an all out push by the US and our friends

life is good

[JLB]

Yup...it looks like an all out push by the US and our friends

life is good

Good catch Upstart just happened huh?

[SpikedLemonade]

AND within 10 years, the Arab countries -- the whole region except Israel -- will respond by wiping Israel off the face of the Earth.

They've got the oil and the population growth.

The Chinese, Russia and even France will supply them with whatever weapons they desire for the right price.

Economic strength in the long-term is more effective than military strength.

The USA will have other issues to keep it busy including NOT wanting to be cut off from Arab oil.

Then again you might get more oil from your friends in Venezula.

OR perhaps Israel has oil that it can provide to its Big Brother the USA?

[TheGoodShepherd]

upstart you're such a tool.

[uppy]

AND within 10 years, the Arab countries -- the whole region except Israel -- will respond by wiping Israel off the face of the Earth.

They've got the oil and the population growth.

The Chinese, Russia and even France will supply them with whatever weapons they desire for the right price.

Economic strength in the long-term is more effective than military strength.

The USA will have other issues to keep it busy including NOT wanting to be cut off from Arab oil.

Then again you might get more oil from your friends in Venezula.

OR perhaps Israel has oil that it can provide to its Big Brother the USA?

Its not about oil Spike,its about freedom also its a two way street,if the arabs

don't sell its oil to us what the hell are they going to do with it ?

Go Israel Go !

Nuke the bastards !

[uppy]

upstart you're such a tool.


My grass is getting tall with all this GW....should I have it cut,or should I

let it go until the spring ?

[mark3274]

well this is not really a surprise but just get ready because this will bring the whole region into a war
bet on it....
even saudi arabia would attack israel then and then more nukes would be used and soon its... game over middle east...

[uppy]

well this is not really a surprise but just get ready because this will bring the whole region into a war
bet on it....
even saudi arabia would attack israel then and then more nukes would be used and soon its... game over middle east...


The sad thing is the American left gave hope to the arabs..."aiding and

abetting the eneny" and all.

I hope Mr.Bush tosses the gauntelt down and with Irsael's help we can

bring peace to the middle east with a Big Foot Print.


It may get ugly at first....but in the end we all win

[mark3274]

The sad thing is the American left gave hope to the arabs..."aiding and

abetting the eneny" and all.

I hope Mr.Bush tosses the gauntelt down and with Irsael's help we can

bring peace to the middle east with a Big Foot Print.


It may get ugly at first....but in the end we all win

ugly lol you have no idea.... you really think isreal has the only nuke? this will result in a classic Israel vs muslim thing if they attack them they will hit back. Ugly is what it would be with more than 18 million dead easy.. you really want that?
course nothing any of US can Do if it's gonna happen well hope it don't get that far.

[TheGoodShepherd]

My grass is getting tall with all this GW....should I have it cut,or should I

let it go until the spring ?

Eveything about you screams pathetic. Not even the the side to which you most suscribe would have you on their team. Your arguments are stupid. Your behavior malevolent. And on top of everyhting. Your a coward, a liar and most likely never been in uniform.

You're a liability to your own side. That's how low your level of intelligence is on policy issues.

[TheGoodShepherd]

If Israel struck Iran with nuclear weapons, Israel would be a committing a war crime and Iran would have every right to defend herself from such aggression.

[JLB]

My grass is getting tall with all this GW....should I have it cut,or should I

let it go until the spring ?

I would let it go this GW can't last much longer.

[dasaybz]

sorry, but any nuclear strike isn't good news uppy

I actually find this pretty sickening if you want my honest opinion.

Once nukes start getting dropped, where does it end?

The prospects are not pretty.

[Wing Eater]

This is all bullshit. If the Israel really was going to do this you would never hear about it. It is a ploy to get Iran to agree to the UN's calls for an end to enrichment.

[Troy_75]

Whatever I hope it happens.

[bigr]

Yeah uhhhh why other countries hate America = statements that uppy makes like thinking it's cool Israel NUKES Iran.

4 Nukes used = Nucelar winter that drastically changes the whole world. 1 Nuke will lead to more, which is definitely not a good thing.

[deconstruction]

Good news....thankyou Israel !

Uzi Mahnaimi, New York and Sarah Baxter, Washington



ISRAEL has drawn up secret plans to destroy Iran’s uranium enrichment facilities with tactical nuclear weapons.
Two Israeli air force squadrons are training to blow up an Iranian facility using low-yield nuclear “bunker-busters”, according to several Israeli military sources.



The attack would be the first with nuclear weapons since 1945, when the United States dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Israeli weapons would each have a force equivalent to one-fifteenth of the Hiroshima bomb.

Under the plans, conventional laser-guided bombs would open “tunnels” into the targets. “Mini-nukes” would then immediately be fired into a plant at Natanz, exploding deep underground to reduce the risk of radioactive fallout.

“As soon as the green light is given, it will be one mission, one strike and the Iranian nuclear project will be demolished,” said one of the sources.

more





http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2535310,00.html



This is now the worst idea I have ever fcking heard. I'd rather support a conventional war than that (and I don't support a conventional war in any way). Putting the nuculear option on the table will only confirm the worst expectations that many countries have of Isreal and the United States. But worse, it will reduce the nuculear deterrent that we currently have. Its the only reason that a nuke hasn't been exploded inside the US. To be more blunt about it, it will start a shitstorm that we won't be able to get out of.

[SweetLee8 3PlayaWha?]

If Israel struck Iran with nuclear weapons, Israel would be a committing a war crime and Iran would have every right to defend herself from such aggression.

En da femez wurdz oaf pawasadant jorge dubilyea buzsh, breng et onn suckirz@@@@@!!!

[Green Lantern]

Its not about oil Spike,its about freedom also its a two way street,if the arabs

don't sell its oil to us what the hell are they going to do with it ?

Go Israel Go !

Nuke the bastards !

You wear ignorance like it is a cloak of Pride.

[uppy]

ugly lol you have no idea.... you really think isreal has the only nuke? this will result in a classic Israel vs muslim thing if they attack them they will hit back. Ugly is what it would be with more than 18 million dead easy.. you really want that?
course nothing any of US can Do if it's gonna happen well hope it don't get that far.

The Gulf Nations don't like Iran and its not like Israel plans on hitting citys

with Nukes

Under the plans, conventional laser-guided bombs would open “tunnels” into the targets. “Mini-nukes” would then immediately be fired into a plant at Natanz, exploding deep underground to reduce the risk of radioactive fallout.


Iran has said it wants to wipe Israel off the map.....the Israeli have to do

something they just can't sit back and let it happen.

[uppy]

Eveything about you screams pathetic. Not even the the side to which you most suscribe would have you on their team. Your arguments are stupid. Your behavior malevolent. And on top of everyhting. Your a coward, a liar and most likely never been in uniform.

You're a liability to your own side. That's how low your level of intelligence is on policy issues.

You wear ignorance like it is a cloak of Pride.

I feel the love !

[LVBillsfan]

This is simply insane. There's a reason no one has used nukes. Israel uses them and that will give permission for the rest of the Middle East to use them, as well as other extremist countries.

[uppy]

sorry, but any nuclear strike isn't good news uppy

I actually find this pretty sickening if you want my honest opinion.

Once nukes start getting dropped, where does it end?

The prospects are not pretty.

Iran need to stop building the bomb and shut-up about wiping Israel off

the map

[TheGoodShepherd]

I say we bomb upstart's family and then just say it was an honest mistake.

[uppy]

Who's we Chimp ?

[sukie]

Detroit's hispanic community or Canada?

[uppy]

The Landscapers Union ?

[Maz]

crap

[Maz]

AND within 10 years, the Arab countries -- the whole region except Israel -- will respond by wiping Israel off the face of the Earth.

They've got the oil and the population growth.

The Chinese, Russia and even France will supply them with whatever weapons they desire for the right price.

Economic strength in the long-term is more effective than military strength.

The USA will have other issues to keep it busy including NOT wanting to be cut off from Arab oil.

Then again you might get more oil from your friends in Venezula.

OR perhaps Israel has oil that it can provide to its Big Brother the USA?


haha noooo, the Arab world won't be able to put a dent in Israel's military until they can have ANY sort of unity. A large portion of the Muslim world has the problem that a large portion of Africa has and that is cleavages that ravage any hope for peace. Until these nations can't stop bickering about who "has it right" than they will NEVER be able to touch Israel. Also, France and China would'nt provide Arab nations anything to destroy Israel... france can't win wars on their own why would they help anyone? Still, this is a VERY scary thought.... mutually assured destruction....

[Green Lantern]

This is simply insane. There's a reason no one has used nukes. Israel uses them and that will give permission for the rest of the Middle East to use them, as well as other extremist countries.

You also forget that Israel cannot admit they have them since they signed the NNPT and promised not to own them.

What would it do to Iran's claim that Israel is populated with a nation of liars if the Israeli's fired weapons they claim they do not have, in violation of a treaty they signed? No one would trust Israel as far as they could throw the Dead Sea scrolls.

[Maz]

Eveything about you screams pathetic. Not even the the side to which you most suscribe would have you on their team. Your arguments are stupid. Your behavior malevolent. And on top of everyhting. Your a coward, a liar and most likely never been in uniform.

You're a liability to your own side. That's how low your level of intelligence is on policy issues.

Hey, I'm 12 years old to! I'm going to attack your character cause I myself can't fathom the idea of coming up with an intelligent retort for conversation. No, because he chooses action while you and all these other post fascist hippie friends on the board would rather just wait for it to spill on to American soil and then cry about it then. Attacks on a person’s character really just make you look like even more of an ass and him look for more intelligent then he did before and you look even dumber.

[Green Lantern]

Attacks on a person’s character really just make you look like even more of an ass and him look for more intelligent then he did before and you look even dumber.

Did they have run-on sentences at your college?

[Maz]

No one would trust Israel as far as they could throw the Dead Sea scrolls.
Oh my god Aqua, BEST analogy EVER! HAHA

[Maz]

Did they have run-on sentences at your college?

Do they have spell check at your high school? :)

[Green Lantern]

Do they have spell check at your high school? :)

"Spell-check", you mean?

Spell-check does not make a distinction between do, doo, and dew. There is no substitute for thinking your way through life.

[uppy]

Did they have run-on sentences at your college?


What are you the gramer police....lol

[uppy]

"Spell-check", you mean?

Spell-check does not make a distinction between do, doo, and dew. There is no substitute for thinking your way through life.



You are encouraged to concentrate on the topic at hand rather than float

into the abyss of leftist lunacy

[TheGoodShepherd]

Hey, I'm 12 years old to! I'm going to attack your character cause I myself can't fathom the idea of coming up with an intelligent retort for conversation. No, because he chooses action while you and all these other post fascist hippie friends on the board would rather just wait for it to spill on to American soil and then cry about it then. Attacks on a person’s character really just make you look like even more of an ass and him look for more intelligent then he did before and you look even dumber.

Yea, a stupid action.

Ummm. Didn't you read his comments? Anyone who thinks it's cool to nuke a nation is an idiot.

[Maz]

"Spell-check", you mean?

Spell-check does not make a distinction between do, doo, and dew. There is no substitute for thinking your way through life.

Exactly, all thinking and no action, no actual experience or training in the least. Idealists just think and live off dreams, it's all they are good for.

[Green Lantern]

You are encouraged to concentrate on the topic at hand rather than float

into the abyss of leftist lunacy

I posted the last relevant comment. What are you talking about?

How does Israel get around being seen as a liar and a cheat by exploding nukes it says it does not have, in violation of a treaty it willingly signed, which would exclude it from trade with 200 other signatory countries and which would automatically trigger trade embargoes that would cause it to close up it's ports and send it's occupants into a economic state that would rival it's neighbors?

[Maz]

Yea, a stupid action.

Ummm. Didn't you read his comments? Anyone who thinks it's cool to nuke a nation is an idiot.

Yea, I read them and the idea of any nuke being dropped is a terrifying thought but it's a bit more of a perplexing situation then that I think. |It's just sad to see that this is all about nothing more than a power struggle. What can any of us really do? Should Israel let Iran get nukes and then wipe them off the globe likely? Or maybe Iran has no desire to destroy the nation if Israel, still... it's scary!

[uppy]

I posted the last relevant comment. What are you talking about?

How does Israel get around being seen as a liar and a cheat by exploding nukes it says it does not have, in violation of a treaty it willingly signed, which would exclude it from trade with 200 other signatory countries and which would automatically trigger trade embargoes that would cause it to close up it's ports and send it's occupants into a economic state that would rival it's neighbors?

You miss the point aqua....Iran Has Said it Plans on Wiping Israel off the map

They are building the BOMB to do so,Israel has the right to defend Her self

[Maz]

I posted the last relevant comment. What are you talking about?

How does Israel get around being seen as a liar and a cheat by exploding nukes it says it does not have, in violation of a treaty it willingly signed, which would exclude it from trade with 200 other signatory countries and which would automatically trigger trade embargoes that would cause it to close up it's ports and send it's occupants into a economic state that would rival it's neighbors?

Yea, but what nation's hands are clean? Especially in that region of the globe of all places? It IS a very delicate issue because I honestly can't say anyone is wrong or right in all this turmoil.... It's just a terrible situation in general. I do agree with Israel blowing up their sites but don't think them using nuclear weapons is te way to go about it.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Yea, I read them and the idea of any nuke being dropped is a terrifying thought but it's a bit more of a perplexing situation then that I think. |It's just sad to see that this is all about nothing more than a power struggle. What can any of us really do? Should Israel let Iran get nukes and then wipe them off the globe likely? Or maybe Iran has no desire to destroy the nation if Israel, still... it's scary!

Iran has every right to weaponize nuclear materials. Iran should be terrified of the U.S and Israel. America marched thousands of miles to invade Iraq on a phony and malicious pre-text. You damn right they want nuclear weapons. And you know what? I don't blame them.

If it takes a nuclear weapon to deter a malevolent intruder with a history of theft and violence like Uncle Sam, than so be it.

[sukie]

What phoney pretext... Sddam failed repeatedly to comply with the UN

[Green Lantern]

Yea, but what nation's hands are clean? Especially in that region of the globe of all places? It IS a very delicate issue because I honestly can't say anyone is wrong or right in all this turmoil.... It's just a terrible situation in general. I do agree with Israel blowing up their sites but don't think them using nuclear weapons is te way to go about it.

Other than the "yes", you dance around the question.

Admitting that you can see no other way out of a problem, and I don't mean this as an insult since it equally applies to me or anyone, could show that you have either not thought about the problem enough or are not smart enough to figure it out; as much as it may mean that there is no other solution.

I bring up a valid point. Israel publicly claims it has no nukes. It would set into motion embargoes from all NNPT members if it were discovered that they did have nukes.

Iran has been embargoed for decades, and has learned to live with it. If they are embargoed for building nukes, they will survive as they have since the 1970's.

Beyond war and it's costs, there is a great deal of suffering and poor PR that will accompany Israeli strikes into Iran...who is building reactors it is ALLOWED to build according to the NNPT. If life is a chess game, right now the Iranians are winning their match.

[uppy]

Israel has the right to stop iran from weaponizing nuclear materials

[TheGoodShepherd]

What phoney pretext... Sddam failed repeatedly to comply with the UN

This has to be the stupidest argument I've heard. The US has a long and historic record of ignoring US resolutions.

Oh and btw, the US was supposed to return to the SC with a second resoultion. But once Iraq complied with Hans Blix's inspection team, and Blix came back with evidence exonerating Iraq, the US told the UN to F off and did their own thing anyway.

So please sukie. Do yourself and favour, and come up with a better point. You're starting to sound like Stealth.

[sukie]

But that was the reason we invaded. Saddam's refusal to comply as ordered.

[Maz]

Iran has every right to weaponize nuclear materials. Iran should be terrified of the U.S and Israel. America marched thousands of miles to invade Iraq on a phony and malicious pre-text. You damn right they want nuclear weapons. And you know what? I don't blame them.

If it takes a nuclear weapon to deter a malevolent intruder with a history of theft and violence like Uncle Sam, than so be it.

It's notthe Iranians who fear the USA, it's the powers that be in Iran who fear the United States. I understand them having nuclear aspirations but a sympathetic ear and making oneself completely vulnerable to an attack are two entirely different things.

[TheGoodShepherd]

But that was the reason we invaded. Saddam's refusal to comply as ordered.


Bwahahahahahahahahaha

[TheGoodShepherd]

But that was the reason we invaded. Saddam's refusal to comply as ordered.

I understand that was one of the reasons Bush gave the American public to invade Iraq.

But that line of reasoning is exactly what made the invasion so phony and misleading.

[Maz]

Other than the "yes", you dance around the question.

Admitting that you can see no other way out of a problem, and I don't mean this as an insult since it equally applies to me or anyone, could show that you have either not thought about the problem enough or are not smart enough to figure it out; as much as it may mean that there is no other solution.

I bring up a valid point. Israel publicly claims it has no nukes. It would set into motion embargoes from all NNPT members if it were discovered that they did have nukes.

Iran has been embargoed for decades, and has learned to live with it. If they are embargoed for building nukes, they will survive as they have since the 1970's.

Beyond war and it's costs, there is a great deal of suffering and poor PR that will accompany Israeli strikes into Iran...who is building reactors it is ALLOWED to build according to the NNPT. If life is a chess game, right now the Iranians are winning their match.

What is the solution though is what I mean? It's either protect yourself or you don't and by not protecting themselves Israel can almost assure it's own demise. For them NOT to take any action would be completely illogical on the side of Israel. Once again, we come back the question how can countries such as Iran and Israel coexsist and can they even?

[Green Lantern]

Israel has the right to stop iran from weaponizing nuclear materials


Were is that written?

If it were written somewhere that one nation has a right to tell another nation what kinds of weapons it has the right to own, would Israel have the burden of PROVING that another country is weaponizing it's fissile material?

[Maz]

I understand that was one of the reasons Bush gave the American public to invade Iraq.

But that line of reasoning is exactly what made the invasion so phony and misleading.

The American public would never has really understood the implication of a victory in Iraq though. Yes, Bush is a BIG liar but if he would have told the American public that it is possible we are about to pulled into the largest struggle of ideals the world has ever known you think we would have go on board? People are pacifists in nature but how long can we live in fear before we fight back?

[Maz]

We are ALL doomed!

[TheGoodShepherd]

The American public would never has really understood the implication of a victory in Iraq though. Yes, Bush is a BIG liar but if he would have told the American public that it is possible we are about to pulled into the largest struggle of ideals the world has ever known you think we would have go on board? People are pacifists in nature but how long can we live in fear before we fight back?

Fight back against who? Iraq? What for?

[Green Lantern]

What is the solution though is what I mean? It's either protect yourself or you don't and by not protecting themselves Israel can almost assure it's own demise. For them NOT to take any action would be completely illogical on the side of Israel. Once again, we come back the question how can countries such as Iran and Israel coexsist and can they even?

I don't know the solution but I know what it is NOT. There are many solutions, probably. Rewrite the NNPT.

We could go back to the old conservative hawkish days before the neo-cons and leave your moral judgements about the happenings within other countries at your own borders when you go abroad: meaning, don't be so naive as to judge that you will not deal with people who live life in a way you disagree with; meaning, deal with Iran. They have oil, they want wealth and power and influence. Trade with them, engage them, and when they are used to the good life, soften them up by making them understand that it would be in their best interest, and in the interest of their pocketbooks, to play ball. "Do you like the good life? Want more? Let up a bit on Isreal."

Or go back to old Liberal playbook, fight for self-determination; for the rights of a people to decide for itself what it's future will be. Fight for the Lebanese, fight against Israel for taking land from the Palestinians that it had no right to. Fight against the fact that 2 million people have been living in "temporary" refugee camps for so long that they are called cities today. Understand that Iran is not arabic and that it wants it's own land, unfettered of foreign interference. Understand that a fundamental premise of Islam is that history has shown that the worst crimes are committed when religion is used in service of the state and that the Prophet's claim was that the state should be used in the service of religion. We don't need to agree with that premise or even understand how someone might think that is true. All we need to agree with is that everyone, EVERYONE, has a right to live in a land of their own. Including Jews, including Palestinians.

I don't know if either of those would work. They are just the two traditional views the US has taken at foreign policy since the turn of the century. I am not bright enough to come up with another one off the top of my head since my degree was Theory, not Int. Rel.

I DO think that either of those is preferable to "convert the world to democracy" though. That has shown itself to be too harsh and dangerous, as current events are bearing out.

[Maz]

Fight back against who? Iraq? What for?


No, against ideologies like Wahhabisim and Qubits who want anyone who thinks differently dead.

[TheGoodShepherd]

No, against ideologies like Wahhabisim and Qubits who want anyone who thinks differently dead.

Iraq was goverened by a sunni.And Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. So you're still not making any sense.

If we apply the same standards to which your holding the US too, than Iran has every right to invade America. In fact, according to your reasoning, every nation that has a problem with another nation's ideology has a right to invade it.

So let's just say, you have no freakin clue what you're talking about.

[Green Lantern]

No, against ideologies like Wahhabisim and Qubits who want anyone who thinks differently dead.

You are, in my view, looking at the symptom, not the disease. Who do they want dead? Answer: their fellow citizens who have sold their belief system to a corrupt foreign power for money. The root of their problem is their own leaders, in their view. We are just the devil that tempts them. They understand you cannot rid the world of the devil, they don't think they can rid the world of us, only of those we have corrupted.

[Maz]

I don't know the solution but I know what it is NOT. There are many solutions, probably. Rewrite the NNPT.

I don't know if either of those would work. They are just the two traditional views the US has taken at foreign policy since the turn of the century. I am not bright enough to come up with another one off the top of my head since my degree was Theory, not Int. Rel.

I DO think that either of those is preferable to "convert the world to democracy" though. That has shown itself to be too harsh and dangerous, as current events are bearing out.

Yea, don't you think though ignoring the problem is the WORST possible thing we can do? We can't isolate ourselves from these conflicts, we will always be the whipping boy of the world as long as we are in a position of power. What do you say then about American capitalism diluting their religion? If these countries refuse diplomacy with the United State then obviously the reaction towards American culture is going to be one of disgust and malcontent right? We have a responsibility to ourselves and our people, to protect ourselves from a culture that we do not understand and that does not understand us. If that means preemptive war and such bullying tactics then what do we do? Do just ignore the problem and hope it goes away and that they don't blow anything else up?

[Maz]

You are, in my view, looking at the symptom, not the disease. Who do they want dead? Answer: their fellow citizens who have sold their belief system to a corrupt foreign power for money. The root of their problem is their own leaders, in their view. We are just the devil that tempts them. They understand you cannot rid the world of the devil, they don't think they can rid the world of us, only of those we have corrupted.

Ok, so I guess the US embassies, the World Trade Centers, the USS Cole, which was all about their powers that be right? That's a total cop out to me, I just feel that this is once again doing nothing but denying the problem at hand.

[Maz]

Iraq was goverened by a sunni.And Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. So you're still not making any sense.

If we apply the same standards to which your holding the US too, than Iran has every right to invade America. In fact, according to your reasoning, every nation that has a problem with another nation's ideology has a right to invade it.

So let's just say, you have no freakin clue what you're talking about.

I didn't make a connection between Iraq and 9/11 you just made that connection because you couldn't make a better retort. Iraq is a focal point in trying to deal with these ideologies in the best way we possibly can. If you didn't have your head so far up your ass as to see it then maybe you notice that terrorist cells all through the Middle East have called for the destruction of America and our pagan Westerner ways. So once again, you are doing nothing but blowing hot air and making no true debate whatsoever. Extremist ideas aren’t limited to Iraq; only your simpleton mind keeps making that analogy. So once again my friend, YOU have no idea what YOU are talking about.

[BF_in_Indiana]

Israel= organized terrorists

[Maz]

Israel= organized terrorists

Yes, Israel is just as guilty if not more but how can you combat terrorism with anything but bullying tactics? Can they really hope to sit down with these people and have diplomacy advance us in talks with them?

[Green Lantern]

Yea, don't you think though ignoring the problem is the WORST possible thing we can do? We can't isolate ourselves from these conflicts, we will always be the whipping boy of the world as long as we are in a position of power. What do you say then about American capitalism diluting their religion? If these countries refuse diplomacy with the United State then obviously the reaction towards American culture is going to be one of disgust and malcontent right? We have a responsibility to ourselves and our people, to protect ourselves from a culture that we do not understand and that does not understand us. If that means preemptive war and such bullying tactics then what do we do? Do just ignore the problem and hope it goes away and that they don't blow anything else up?

I disagree with the entire premise of your post.

I don't think we ignore it or fight. I don't think that we can't have diplomatic relations with these people. I don't think that they believe they cannot understand us. I do not think they believe that it is inevitable that US capitalism is diluting their religion.

Years ago, we got along fine with those in power in the middle east. When we found oil there, or they found oil there, the calculus changed. When democracy and capitalism formed into fascism and there was a win by the capitalists to not be taken over by the government, WW II, things changed again, and the calculus changed again.

I think as things stand now, there are excesses in US capitalist culture because Locke's definition of "rational self-interest" has slipped into his definition of "avarice". We are willing to sacrifice the liberty of others, as is clearly seen in our history when we try and topple democracies in favor of dictatorships, for a benefit to ourselves. When we do this, we make enemies.

Our choice is simple them, lord our power over others or pay more for things. We, in my view, choose the short-sighted cheap things version and we will pay the bill at the back end...with the ill feelings we are accummulating. Our choice, again, in my view, is whether or not to keep building up more good will or to relook at the way we deal with the world, or at least the weaker parts of the world.

You know that we spend more money in foreign aid than the rest of the world combined, right? Why is it, then, that we have garnered so little good will? Maybe it is because we give money to people with strings attached: here is 300 million but you must spend it in US goods and half must be in military contracts. (Etc.) We learned this from the Marshall Plan.

China, right now, is building infrastructure in Africa; because Africa is the last great untapped resource of the world and will be the place to be in the future. Do you know what they are doing? Why they have a great public image among the PEOPLE of the countries they go to? They build great big soccer stadiums. That is it. They are accruing good will that will be cashed in in the future and we are selling arms and subjugating people under dictatorships that are put there with our help.

I think the Chinese version of foreign relations is better for business.

This is just one assumption I worked on about your premises. Every premise you list, "they hate us", etc. can be worked out and turned around if we want to pay some initial upfront costs and if we want to ADMIT that we were going too far in order to give ourselves a cushier life at the expense of others. The admission of guilt is the hardest thing for almost every person I have ever met. No one likes to see the hand they played in the messes they find themselves in.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Iraq is a focal point in trying to deal with these ideologies in the best way we possibly can.



By your own admittance, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Yet you call Iraq a focal point? You just contradicted youself genius!

LOL

So let me guess this straight. You think it's ok for the US to invade and destroy 60,000 + Iraqi lives even though they had nothing to do with 9/11. But hey, it's ok because the US needs a "focal point."

That has to be the most cowardly line of reasoning ever. Invade a country that had nothing to do with terorrism just so you can have a base of operations from which to launch attacks from.


Please. Someone save MAZ from his empty hollow arguments. They're making this board stupider.

[Maz]

EXCELLENT retort my friend

[TheGoodShepherd]

Hey, my name is Maz and I'm Iranian.

Even though Canada never harmed Iran, I think Iran should use Canada as a "focal point" from which to invade and launch attacks against the US.

What does everyone else think?

[BF_in_Indiana]

Yes, Israel is just as guilty if not more but how can you combat terrorism with anything but bullying tactics? Can they really hope to sit down with these people and have diplomacy advance us in talks with them?

I don't hear the United States talking about dropping nukes in Iran. Irans nuclear program is a concern for us as well.

I don't side with anyone in the Israel/Palastein issue. They are all nuts.

[Green Lantern]

Ok, so I guess the US embassies, the World Trade Centers, the USS Cole, which was all about their powers that be right? That's a total cop out to me, I just feel that this is once again doing nothing but denying the problem at hand.

Yes. All of those things were about the powers-that-be in Saudia Arabia. We should not be so self-involved as to think all of this stuff is about us directly.

You mention Wahabism. We have been through this a number of time before you got here. Wahabism found a footing in Saudia Arabia after they had an economic boom and then educated vast segments of their population. Those educated people then could not find jobs because their money-hungry leaders farmed out jobs to immigrants who would work for pennies. These unemployed people then went back to Mosque and had some fundamentalist point out to them that the cause of the problem is a direct line from no-job, to capitalist leaders, to the US who infected them with a desire for earthly rewards. The result is that they get more fundamentalist and strike out at the causes of their disgust.

We are just one cause. They believe that if they push and push and push we will squeeze and squeeze and squeeze until the average person, who does not want conflict, will be shaken out of complacency and forced into choosing sides. They will choose Islam, of course. And the great battle will shake off the foreign devils, they will be free once more.

Our fundamentalist president is playing into their hand. What a smart person would do is find out how to eliminate the unemployment and suffering (at an immediate, short-term cost to ourselves of both pride and money) and take away the seeds of discontent. When people are working and happy, they will not listen to fundamentalists who tell them that their ills are the cause of another, because there are no ill's to point at.

You advocate drawing lines in the sand and duking it out. I say you are no better than them because you say the same exact thing as them. You say it from our side with our patriotism and our religious beliefs, just like them. You would impress me more if you did not sound like them.

[JLB]

Hey, my name is Maz and I'm Iranian.

Even though Canada never harmed Iran, I think Iran should use Canada as a "focal point" from which to invade and launch attacks against the US.

What does everyone else think?

Your 6 years old your from Slutsville and your very funny.

Your also trying to understand what you are talking about no?

[Green Lantern]

Yes, Israel is just as guilty if not more but how can you combat terrorism with anything but bullying tactics? Can they really hope to sit down with these people and have diplomacy advance us in talks with them?

You take away their recruiting grounds by taking away misery and hopelessness.

[Maz]

Hey, my name is Maz and I'm Iranian.

Even though Canada never harmed Iran, I think Iran should use Canada as a "focal point" from which to invade and launch attacks against the US.

What does everyone else think?



What are you live ten years old? No you tool, we went into Iraq on LIES. I'm not in here defending the invasion of Iraq, WRONG THREAD! I am explaining the reasoning they made behind it, it's the old Machiavellian concept that the ends justify the means. I was justifying America’s involvement in the Middle East period by making the connection between these extreme Islamic factions and their contempt for America. You just can’t get off your little anti-George Bush kick for five minutes to think in a different direction. I am saying that it would have started somewhere at sometime regardless if we wanted it or not. Iraq was wrong and we waged the war COMPLETELY wrong but at some point America was going to clash with these groups regardless of where we went and when. Also, learn how to act like an adult before you try to talk to adults and not be such a pompous little prepubescent jerk.

[Maz]

You take away their recruiting grounds by taking away misery and hopelessness.

Can we really lift all these nations up like that though, is that really even possible?

[Green Lantern]

Can we really lift all these nations up like that though, is that really even possible?

Let me turn your question around. Would it not be enough to stop oppressing them and let them have their own chance to make it or not in the world?

I do not say we need to lift them up, just stop preventing them from lifting themselves up. We hold people down because it is in our economic, strategic, political interest to do so. They are raising the stakes and trying to get us to change our minds, that it is not worth it to do business there anymore.

Can't we change the way we do business?

[SpikedLemonade]

if the arabs

don't sell its oil to us what the hell are they going to do with it ?

Have you heard about this little country called China?

How about India?

[TheGoodShepherd]

Posted by Maz

I am explaining the reasoning they made behind it,It's the old Machiavellian concept that the ends justify the means. I was justifying America’s involvement in the Middle East period by making the connection between these extreme Islamic factions and their contempt for America. You just can’t get off your little anti-George Bush kick for five minutes to think in a different direction. I am saying that it would have started somewhere at sometime regardless if we wanted it or not.

You just contradicted yourself again Einstein. You say you were just explaining a machavelian concept, yet in the very next sentence you claim to be justifying America's involvement in the middle East ( and obviously by "involvement" your referring to Iraq genius).

Whose the real ten year old here? You can't even get your own story straight...LOL

Hey guys. My name is maz. And I'm going to kill and save you at the same time.

Which is it genius? Were you justifying it, or explaining it?

LOL


And btw, the end never justify the means.

And do you have proof to substantiate the following silly comment you made... "it would have started somewhere at sometime regardless if we wanted it or not."

Or was that the voices in your head?

[Maz]

You advocate drawing lines in the sand and duking it out. I say you are no better than them because you say the same exact thing as them. You say it from our side with our patriotism and our religious beliefs, just like them. You would impress me more if you did not sound like them.

I'm actually agnostic as far as religion goes and born outside of the States. I do however see the point your making. I just can't see us reinventing are nation completely now, which is what it would take. Maybe I have been scared into the same paranoia that everyone else has? You really think the Middle East can be stabalized and we can just rewind the past ten decades and fix everything now?

[Maz]

You just contradicted yourself again Einstein. You say you were just explaining a machavelian concept, yet in the very next sentence you claim to be justifying America's involvement in the middle East ( and obviously by "involvement" your referring to Iraq genius).

Whose the real ten year old here? You can't even get your own story straight...LOL

And btw, the end never justify the means. And do you have proof to substantiate the following silly comment... "it would have started somewhere at sometime regardless if we wanted it or not."

Or was that the voices in your head?

Actually, America's involvement in the Middle East stems FAR beyond Iraq but you wouldn’t know that and actually that was a quote from Machiavelli. So once again, you have retorted nothing but shown how asinine you are.

[TheGoodShepherd]

Actually, America's involvement in the Middle East stems FAR beyond Iraq but you wouldn’t know that and actually that was a quote from Machiavelli. So once again, you have retorted nothing but shown how asinine you are.

Which is it Maz, were you justifying it or explaining it? Get your freakin own post straight....LOL


Or are you the only person in the world who can do things and not do things at the same time?

[SpikedLemonade]

...the Arab world won't be able to put a dent in Israel's military until they can have ANY sort of unity.....

Nothing would unite them more than an Israeli attack on a fellow Arab country.

When it comes to supporting a fellow Arab or a Jew, it's an easy choice.

[SpikedLemonade]

What would it do to Iran's claim that Israel is populated with a nation of liars if the Israeli's fired weapons they claim they do not have, in violation of a treaty they signed? No one would trust Israel as far as they could throw the Dead Sea scrolls.

Who other than the USA doesn't think Israel is lying?

[Green Lantern]

I'm actually agnostic as far as religion goes and born outside of the States. I do however see the point your making. I just can't see us reinventing are nation completely now, which is what it would take. Maybe I have been scared into the same paranoia that everyone else has? You really think the Middle East can be stabalized and we can just rewind the past ten decades and fix everything now?

I don't think we will have to reinvent any country. We just need to have different priorities.

People only change the way they think when they have to. The US changed to centralized control after the Civil War, we changed into social welfare during the excesses of the Robberbarons, we took another step of controlling the economy, the planned economy, after the Great Depression.

Maybe we will have to fight it out for awhile until someone decides that we have to reel in the influence of multi-national conglomerates. It could go the other way too: conglomerates could win and make nation-states irrelevant.

Rewinding will not happen, change happens.

I had fun today. Time to log off.

[Green Lantern]

Who other than the USA doesn't think Israel is lying?

I don't know. I don't follow that too closely. I only know that that is the main thrust of what the Arabs are trying to do. They are trying to tear at the credibility of Israel so they can get down to the fallacious claim by Israel that the Holy Land was not peopled when they got there and took the land.

Iran is chipping away hoping for cracks to appear in the Israeli version of history.

[Maz]

Which is it Maz, were you justifying it or explaining it? Get your freakin own post straight....LOL


Or are you the only person in the world who can do things and not do things at the same time?

You still aren't saying anything? That didn't even make any sense? Think before you speak... have a nice day!

[TheGoodShepherd]

You still aren't saying anything? That didn't even make any sense? Think before you speak... have a nice day!

Answer the questions. How do you know it would have happened regardless? You got evidence or substantiation for that claim?

Or was that more BS?

And were you trying to explain US involvement or justify it?

Which is it?

Those are very simple questions to answer.


I'll be waiting.

[JLB]

Somebody needs a nap.

We'll wait.

[Maz]

Answer the questions. How do you know it would have happened regardless? You got evidence or substantiation for that claim?

Or was that more BS?

And were you trying to explain US involvement or justify it?

Which is it?

Those are very simple questions to answer.


I'll be waiting.

You still missed EVERYTHING, I am not justifying the United States presence in Iraq but explaining why the Middle East is such a detrimental place for America. Also, I guess you've missed the terrorist attacks that have gone on for some time now without an American led invasion anywhere in the Middle East? Did you really think we were going to sit back and take it over and over and over? As long as we have support of Israel we are a target, regardless if we all agree with the United States support of Israel the fact is that we ARE allies.The evidence is the WWII also, we isolated ourselves from that conflict and it didn't last... isolationism doesn’t work, if you knew a ioda of what you act like you do you might have figured that out by now.

[uppy]

Have you heard about this little country called China?

How about India?

Yup,but thay already sell them all the oil thay need.How will thay make up

the loses from not selling oil to us?

Also the US could shut down the straits of hormuz and no one gets oil

[Gibby]

I am all for Israel bombing Iran, it takes care of the Iran problem and saves us a lot of diplomatic egg in the face and casualties. Lets just let Israel have at it.

[uppy]

Were is that written?

If it were written somewhere that one nation has a right to tell another nation what kinds of weapons it has the right to own, would Israel have the burden of PROVING that another country is weaponizing it's fissile material?

Israel does not need to prove shit...Irans actions speak for its self

[ckg68]

What phoney pretext... Sddam failed repeatedly to comply with the UN

So our government said.

Scott Ritter said something entirely different. But what he said got a miniscule amount of play in the press.

[mark3274]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467682469&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[SpikedLemonade]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467682469&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"If" Israel has nuclear weapons?

"If"?

[deconstruction]

I am all for Israel bombing Iran, it takes care of the Iran problem and saves us a lot of diplomatic egg in the face and casualties. Lets just let Israel have at it.

Did someone apply novocain to your brain stem? Almost every country would blame the United States as Israel's backer.

[deconstruction]

My proposal for Uppy's new Avatar (with humor)

http://www.looptvandfilm.com/blog/dr_strangelove_bombdrop.jpg

[uppy]

Lmao

[JLB]

Lmao




http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/coverv/73/113673.jpg

3 lefties take a trip.