JSF and Britain

[anEinherjer]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2493941,00.html

Ministers were today urged to consider abandoning the multi-billion pound Joint Strike Fighter project unless the United States agrees within weeks to share sensitive technology.

The Government should develop a "plan B" for jets to operate from two new aircraft carriers if a deal is not struck by the end of the year, according to the influential Commons Defence Select Committee.

Progress on the £140 billion project - the most expensive single armaments programme in UK military history - has been dogged by wrangles over whether Britain would be given access to the technology powering the high-tech aircraft.

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2152035/joint-strike-fighter

The UK has warned America that it will cancel its £12bn order for the Joint Strike Fighter if the US does not hand over full access to the computer software code that controls the jets.


Pretty interesting stuff. I can say (a little) more, this is some pretty cool shit, but I'm curious if anyone else has any opinion on us working on mega-expensive, joint weapons systems with our allies. In the end, I guess if we're going to spend too much on weapons, might as well tie ourselves to allies while we're at it....

[gilchristfan]

That's lots of $$$ to be spending on a modern version of the F-111

[shiva2999]

Let's send a squadron of JSF's against Osama.

[35Pete]

Monumental screwup by the BA. I mean the one ally we have always been able to implicitly trust has been Britain.

We lose out on development costs (that I'll have to pay) and Britain loses out on the coming of the world's most advanced combat aircraft.

WTF is wrong with these people???

[35Pete]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/35Pete/JSF.jpg

[anEinherjer]

Don't worry Pete, UK will sign the MOU. :)

It's not a Bush Admin screwup, it's the international directorate of the JSF Program Office working with our national disclosure policy folks. It'll get worked out, this is posturing for a better deal.

[anEinherjer]

By the way, the new Smithsonian "hangar" thing out by Dulles has a JSF full-scale model - it's a pretty sweet-looking plane.

[shiva2999]

Gotta pimp the death machine.

[K-Gun]

The neocons were agaisnt the JSF. They want us to spend the cash on sapce weapons.

page 12:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

[anEinherjer]

Gotta pimp the death machine.

Hell yeah. It's awesome from a "my weenie is way the **** bigger than yours" perspective.


(Don't worry folks, I'm not abandoning any principles here, I wish they weren't wasting (a ****load) of our money on this thing. But that's separate from the cool factor)

[shiva2999]

Hell yeah. It's awesome from a "my weenie is way the **** bigger than yours" perspective.


(Don't worry folks, I'm not abandoning any principles here, I wish they weren't wasting (a ****load) of our money on this thing. But that's separate from the cool factor)

Personally I think the JSF is kind of vanilla.

If there's one plane I'd like to fly, it's the A-10 Warthog.

Now THERE'S a flying death machine.

[anEinherjer]

Well alright, I can't argue the cool factor of the A10. Speaking of weenies, that chaingun is amazing. And I've seen photos from the ME of Warthogs all ripped to hell.

JSF is sweet from a tech perspective. The lift fan on the STOVL version is really pretty amazing. The stealth technologies (including the skin on the plane) are pretty sweet from what I've seen on PBS, though I think the Boeing model was cooler (some kind of wacky baked composite...).

[shiva2999]

Well alright, I can't argue the cool factor of the A10. Speaking of weenies, that chaingun is amazing. And I've seen photos from the ME of Warthogs all ripped to hell.

JSF is sweet from a tech perspective. The lift fan on the STOVL version is really pretty amazing. The stealth technologies (including the skin on the plane) are pretty sweet from what I've seen on PBS, though I think the Boeing model was cooler (some kind of wacky baked composite...).

Do you do any flying on your computer?

Online dogfighting in ww2 planes is THE BEST.

[gilchristfan]

By the way, the new Smithsonian "hangar" thing out by Dulles has a JSF full-scale model - it's a pretty sweet-looking plane.

It does look sweet.

http://military.sakura.ne.jp/aircraft/photo2/2_f-111.jpg



oops. I get my "all-in-one" fighter bombers mixed up.

[gilchristfan]

Personally I think the JSF is kind of vanilla.

If there's one plane I'd like to fly, it's the A-10 Warthog.

Now THERE'S a flying death machine.

That's because you can get close in to the enemy and watch them splat after you shoot.

[shiva2999]

That's because you can get close in to the enemy and watch them splat after you shoot.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3216741745764941010&q=A-10+Warthog

[ticatfan3]

That's because you can get close in to the enemy and watch them splat after you shoot.Or your allies,that is why canadian soldiers duck for cover when they hear the whine of one coming in.

[shiva2999]

This one's even better!

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7288697292729312722&q=A-10+Warthog

[anEinherjer]

It does look sweet.

http://military.sakura.ne.jp/aircraft/photo2/2_f-111.jpg



oops. I get my "all-in-one" fighter bombers mixed up.

LOL

I don't think they make STOVL or carrier versions of the F-111 but I guess I could be wrong. ;)

[anEinherjer]

Do you do any flying on your computer?

Online dogfighting in ww2 planes is THE BEST.

I don't think I've played a flying game in a long time... last one I remember is Wings of Fury but that's gotta be 15 years at least.

[35Pete]

Do you do any flying on your computer?

Online dogfighting in ww2 planes is THE BEST.

Which game? Battlefield 1942 has good aircraft simulation on it,

[shiva2999]

The one I used to play was Fighter Ace.

It was a big on line arena with four airports, American, British, German and Russian.

There's nothing like trying to stay on a guys tail as you're weaving back and forth at top speed fifty feet off the ground in your Spitfire.

[35Pete]

The one I used to play was Fighter Ace.

It was a big on line arena with four airports, American, British, German and Russian.

There's nothing like trying to stay on a guys tail as you're weaving back and forth at top speed fifty feet off the ground in your Spitfire.
I heard that was a great game. Games are only fun if you are playing another human. Nothing more satisfying than ruining his night sending him down in flames time and again. Cause' he'd do it to you.

[shiva2999]

I heard that was a great game. Games are only fun if you are playing another human. Nothing more satisfying than ruining his night sending him down in flames time and again. Cause' he'd do it to you.

I started playing before the internet was viable.

Aces Over Europe was an awesome stand alone game that ran great on my 486dx33.

The AI was actually pretty darn good.

[shiva2999]

Fighter Ace 3 trailer

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D3zLJZrHqX0&mode=related&search=

[35Pete]

Fighter Ace 3 trailer

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D3zLJZrHqX0&mode=related&search=

You'd get a kick out of Battlefield 2. Air-to-air (damn realistic too), infantry, tanks, air-to-ground, attack helicopters. And you play other people too. Up to 64 people on a battlefield at one time.

Plus you'd get a chance to shoot me in the head. ;)

[uppy]

The US and germans tryed a joint tank program in the late 60 to early 70s

it was called mbt-70. I think if failed because of cost and what country was

going to build each part.It worked out in the end because we ended up

building M-1 and we got to inculde some of the technolgy developed for

the mbt-70

[anEinherjer]

That's interesting uppy, all the word down here is that JSF is unique in that regard.

[gilchristfan]

The US and germans tryed a joint tank program in the late 60 to early 70s

it was called mbt-70. I think if failed because of cost and what country was

going to build each part.It worked out in the end because we ended up

building M-1 and we got to inculde some of the technolgy developed for

the mbt-70

Britain isn't really building the JSF, is it? I thought it was all a Lockheed project.

I keep bringing up the F-111 though. Wasn't that the last time the country tried to build an all-in-one aircraft? McNamara's dream? I think it was a bust. I don't think the Navy ever used it. (too heavy for aircraft carriers)

I'd just think air operations are a little too specialized for an one size fits all solution.

I'm all for lasers and drones, myself.

[anEinherjer]

BAE has a pretty large role in the project. They're UK-based.


Lasers and drones = good plan. That's the main problem I have with JSF, really - by the time it comes out UAV tech will be so far along that JSF will almost be out of date. Why bother putting a human in the machine when you can have 18 year old video game gods running combat missions from a comfy chair in Florida somewhere?

JSF isn't quite all-in-one - I think the Raptor will still be better air to air.

[markythebill]

140 billion pounds. I wonder how many school books or shelters that would buy.


Anyway, I think we should spend the cash on these:

http://www.adrenalin.bc.ca/wings/pix/spitfire.jpg

Totally ineffective for modern warfare but cool as ****

[gilchristfan]

BAE has a pretty large role in the project. They're UK-based.


Lasers and drones = good plan. That's the main problem I have with JSF, really - by the time it comes out UAV tech will be so far along that JSF will almost be out of date. Why bother putting a human in the machine when you can have 18 year old video game gods running combat missions from a comfy chair in Florida somewhere?

JSF isn't quite all-in-one - I think the Raptor will still be better air to air.

I thought that's why they developed the JSF, because the Raptor is too expensive. I think the price is around $350 million per plane because they're only buying around 200 or so.

[Lucidvizion]

Do you do any flying on your computer?

Online dogfighting in ww2 planes is THE BEST.

www.il2sturmovik.com/

This one is still pretty popular for online play.

[twosheds]

Anyway, I think we should spend the cash on these:

Though the backbone of the Battle of Britain was actually the Hawker Hurricane. There was considerable propaganda with the introduction of the Spitfire, which is why it has the image as the british WWII plane, which isn't true.

[anEinherjer]

EVERY WW2 plane is gorgeous.


And yeah, gil, the JSF was supposed to be the "cheaper" option.... we'll see.

[anEinherjer]

Psst. They signed the MOU today.

:)

[35Pete]

Good. I take it this is a joint program? The brits have always had some really good engineering. Remember, the P-51 mustang was an American airframe and British Rolls Royce Merlin engine. Before the Brits modified it from the Allison engine it was just an average fighter. Once the American avionics were married to the British powerplant that plane became the best fighter of the war.

[K-Gun]

We need the JSF in our battle with evil.

[anEinherjer]

And JK slides back towards stupid. Come on man, do better.

JSF has 8 partner nations contributing various levels of funding and expertise, and has exactly zero to do with fighting terr'rists:

http://www.jsf.mil/
http://www.jsf.mil/program/prog_intl.htm

I've met some of the Italians, Brits and Aussies in the program office, they're very cool guys (particularly since I don't have to negotiate with 'em...).

[shiva2999]

JSF has 8 partner nations contributing various levels of funding and expertise, and has exactly zero to do with fighting terr'rists.

Then who IS the JSF designed to fight?

Admit it, the JSF is a gigantic wank.

[35Pete]

Then who IS the JSF designed to fight?

Admit it, the JSF is a gigantic wank.

The best part about it is that it takes food out of the mouths of hungry children and the elderly and puts that money into the pockets of fat cats that own defense stock.

Plus it kills!!!

[anEinherjer]

Oh, I have no illusions that the JSF is urgently needed or anything. Like I said before, by the time it's up and running, UAV technology will probably be able to beat it.

I say probably because I mention stuff like this to certain folks and they just smile at me.

But in any event, from the military's point of view, JSF is good because it pushes the envelope - and keeps us far and away ahead of the rest of the world ensuring our place at the top of the heap. Now, whether or not you agree with that probably would be a good indicator of how you vote (if you do). :)

And who knows, if the int'l stuff works out the way certain folks want it to, some of the pig-headed among the US intel community will admit that hey, the rest of the world DOES have some interesting stuff to offer, and we'll be better off for that.