Drug War Makes for Bad Cops, Period.

[anEinherjer]

Yeah, so I'm just a drama queen, there's no problem with police violence in this country, Radley's map (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/) is just the product of a bunch of whiny chickenshits.

Maybe not.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/21/D8LHSRR01.html

Can any of you think of any good reason for police to violently raid a home, guns drawn, to wipe out a 92-year old?

Hot damn, this year I'm thankful for AUTHORITARIANISM, the kind that makes drugs so bad that paramilitary raids are determined to be great frigging idea.

[chickie]

What is a 92 year old woman doing with a gun in her home in the first place?

And why did she shoot at them first? I am sure it wasn't because she was freightened when they kicked the door down.

There has to be more to this story...I ain't buyin' it.

[TRIPLE P]

What is a 92 year old woman doing with a gun in her home in the first place?

And why did she shoot at them first? I am sure it wasn't because she was freightened when they kicked the door down.

There has to be more to this story...I ain't buyin' it.

92 year olds aren't allowed to have guns?

Why were they at this old womans home in the first place?

[pmoon6]

What was a 92 year old woman doing with a gun in her home? Probably protecting herself from burglary, rape or murder.

If three guys kicked down my door, they wouldn't just be wounded.

[chickie]

I just think that there is more to this story.

SHe is 92 - the gun must have been pretty close to her to react so quickly.

Keep her age in mind here boys.

There is more to this story - this 92 year old doesn't sound so sweet and innocent here.

[TRIPLE P]

I just think that there is more to this story.

SHe is 92 - the gun must have been pretty close to her to react so quickly.

Keep her age in mind here boys.

There is more to this story - this 92 year old doesn't sound so sweet and innocent here.

Are you just working off a hunch? Speculating? Or is this because you are of the opinion that the police can do no wrong?

Did they find drugs in the house?

This is why drug raids are stupid in the first place...... they cause unecessary violence to stop something that isn't a problem.

[chickie]

Are you just working off a hunch? Speculating? Or is this because you are of the opinion that the police can do no wrong?

Did they find drugs in the house?

This is why drug raids are stupid in the first place...... they cause unecessary violence to stop something that isn't a problem.

All I am saying is that as I read the story I just find it a little odd.

A 92 year old woman who has done NO wrong. Cops come to her door - does she not let them in - why the force?

And why did she shoot at them? And why was the gun already loaded? That is unsafe to keep a loaded gun in the home? NO....

Maybe she knew her niece was using her home to sell drugs....who knows I just think there is more to the story.

Doesn't add up to me, I may very well be wrong. I just know I can't see my own grandmother who is not even 92 yet move that quickly to get a gun.

[Lucidvizion]

Gopchick hit the nail on the head.

This wasn't a no-knock warrant. The police identified theirselves and this woman chose to arm herself instead of answering the door.

Note the police said they did not have the wrong address. It is not uncommon for drug dealers to use the residences of older family members to stash drugs and money.

There are two sides to every story.

[chickie]

Gopchick hit the nail on the head.

This wasn't a no-knock warrant. The police identified theirselves and this woman chose to arm herself instead of answering the door.

Note the police said they did not have the wrong address. It is not uncommon for drug dealers to use the residences of older family members to stash drugs and money.

There are two sides to every story.

Why THANK YOU! I am glad to see someone else really read the story!

[pmoon6]

All I am saying is that as I read the story I just find it a little odd.

A 92 year old woman who has done NO wrong. Cops come to here door - does she not let them in - why the force?

And why did she shoot at them? And why was the gun already loaded? That is unsafe to keep a loaded gun in the home? NO....

Maybe she knew her niece was using her home to sell drugs....who knows I just think there is more to the story.

Doesn't add up to me, I may very well be wrong. I just know I can't see my own grandmother who is not even 92 yet move that quickly to get a gun.No, I keep two loaded guns in my bedroom. It depends if it's a revolver or a semi-auto. A semi-auto is "loaded" when you put the clip in the gun. You still have to pull back the receiver to jack a cartridge in the tube, then it's ready to fire after you take the safety off. A revolver is ready to fire when you remove the safety.

[mighty peace warrior]

why have guns drawn to go in a house with a 92 year old? obvioulsy a 92 year old woman would never shoot at a cop and try to kill them...

oh wait...

[TRIPLE P]

Did this woman even know they were cops? 92 year olds aren't usually the sharpest people.......

She could have been confused or delusional.

[mighty peace warrior]

Did this woman even know they were cops? 92 year olds aren't usually the sharpest people.......

She could have been confused or delusional.

so they shouldnt have protected themselves when she shot them?

[chickie]

Did this woman even know they were cops? 92 year olds aren't usually the sharpest people.......

She could have been confused or delusional.

Well she sure was sane enough to get a loaded gun and know how to shoot it.

[TRIPLE P]

so they shouldnt have protected themselves when she shot them?

No, they should protect themselves...... but they should also do a better job of letting her know whats going on......

But the easier solution is to stop doing meaningless drug raids. They don't accomplish anything.... I've never not been able to get drugs......

All drug raids do is get police officers and innocent people killed...... along with the occasional drug dealer.....

They don't keep drugs off the streets....at least not enough drugs to make a difference..... and definately not enough drugs to risk policemens lives.

[mighty peace warrior]

No, they should protect themselves...... but they should also do a better job of letting her know whats going on......

But the easier solution is to stop doing meaningless drug raids. They don't accomplish anything.... I've never not been able to get drugs......

All drug raids do is get police officers and innocent people killed...... along with the occasional drug dealer.....

They don't keep drugs off the streets....at least not enough drugs to make a difference..... and definately not enough drugs to risk policemens lives.

why would you assume she didnt know what was going on? she was aware enough to hit two moving targets with a handgun(which despite what tv tells us, is quite difficult). you have no idea what she was told or knew

is it the cops fault they are doing drug raids or yours? who makes the laws? last time i checked cops didnt pass legislations or choose polititians.

i am not going to debate the merits of the war on drugs, but blaming the people who enforce the laws is stupid

[nehemiah]

the elderly are a bunch of criminals.

obviously a 92 year old with a gun is a ****ing drug kingpin.

she is sure to be selling heroin and crack up and down the east coast.

[:::]

[K-Gun]

why have guns drawn to go in a house with a 92 year old? obvioulsy a 92 year old woman would never shoot at a cop and try to kill them...

oh wait...

Yeah, as if a badge makes someone impervious to kicking down the wrong door, removing all resposibility for invading someone's home.

[chickie]

why would you assume she didnt know what was going on? she was aware enough to hit two moving targets with a handgun(which despite what tv tells us, is quite difficult). you have no idea what she was told or knew

is it the cops fault they are doing drug raids or yours? who makes the laws? last time i checked cops didnt pass legislations or choose polititians.

i am not going to debate the merits of the war on drugs, but blaming the people who enforce the laws is stupid

Outstanding job!!

Not only that we are talking about a 92 YEAR OLD WOMAN!

She shot the cops......like she had been practicing at the Range or something!

[mighty peace warrior]

Yeah, as if a badge makes someone impervious to kicking down the wrong door, removing all resposibility for invading someone's home.

i have seen no evidence that says they kicked the wrong door. do only civilians deserve the benifit of the doubt? does the fact that the police very rarely kick the wrong door mean anything? the real question is why i waste my time on these threads.

[mighty peace warrior]

the elderly are a bunch of criminals.

obviously a 92 year old with a gun is a ****ing drug kingpin.

she is sure to be selling heroin and crack up and down the east coast.

[:::]

obviously there are no criminals who are old. people who commit crimes for a living either die earlier or live off their investments.

[TRIPLE P]

why would you assume she didnt know what was going on? she was aware enough to hit two moving targets with a handgun(which despite what tv tells us, is quite difficult). you have no idea what she was told or knew

is it the cops fault they are doing drug raids or yours? who makes the laws? last time i checked cops didnt pass legislations or choose polititians.

i am not going to debate the merits of the war on drugs, but blaming the people who enforce the laws is stupid

Because, in my experiance, 92 year olds aren't that sharp......

and I'm not blaming the cops for doing the raid....I'm blaming the laws...which is the underlying source of my opinion on the matter.....

No, the cops defended themselves appropriotely........ but if there were no drugs on the scene then there was no reason to be there in the first place.

This is just another example of a flawed system where people end up dead.

[Lucidvizion]

Yeah, as if a badge makes someone impervious to kicking down the wrong door, removing all resposibility for invading someone's home.

They went to the correct house.

[K-Gun]

i have seen no evidence that says they kicked the wrong door. do only civilians deserve the benifit of the doubt? does the fact that the police very rarely kick the wrong door mean anything? the real question is why i waste my time on these threads.

Sorry, it is completly unjustified for an innocent person to defend themselves against men invading their home with large guns. You have a point, you guys are seldom wrong, and when you are you should be given amnesty for your actions because your job puts you in danger to protect us.

[nehemiah]

obviously there are no criminals who are old. people who commit crimes for a living either die earlier or live off their investments.and the only elderly people who own guns are criminals.

it's ipso facto, baby!

[K-Gun]

They went to the correct house.

I hope your house isn't the correct one next time.

[mighty peace warrior]

Because, in my experiance, 92 year olds aren't that sharp......

and I'm not blaming the cops for doing the raid....I'm blaming the laws...which is the underlying source of my opinion on the matter.....

No, the cops defended themselves appropriotely........ but if there were no drugs on the scene then there was no reason to be there in the first place.

This is just another example of a flawed system where people end up dead.


i have arrested old people, i have had a very sharp 85 year old try to elude my guys(very slowly i might add).he knew exactly what he was doing.

what do you think happens to criminals when they get old? do they suddenly go straight just because they are old.

assuming just because she is old, she was a 'victim' is just wrong.

[nehemiah]

i am not advocating killing cops. i like most cops.

but a person has a right to defend her home.

[mighty peace warrior]

and the only elderly people who own guns are criminals.

it's ipso facto, baby!

what the hell are you talking about?

[mighty peace warrior]

i am not advocating killing cops. i like most cops.

but a person has a right to defend her home.

umm not when the police have a warrant to search it

[TRIPLE P]

They went to the correct house.

If there weren't drugs there....or signs that drugs had been there, then it wasn't the "correct" house...regradless of what it said on the warrant.

[mighty peace warrior]

Sorry, it is completly unjustified for an innocent person to defend themselves against men invading their home with large guns. You have a point, you guys are seldom wrong, and when you are you should be given amnesty for your actions because your job puts you in danger to protect us.

i hate when you pretend to be dumb to try to prove some point. do you have ANY evidence this was the wrong house?

how do you know she is innocent?

you are making assumptions, which seems to be the pattern here when you guys dont have the facts.

[mighty peace warrior]

If there weren't drugs there....or signs that drugs had been there, then it wasn't the "correct" house...regradless of what it said on the warrant.

signs? roflmao as if drug dealers never move their stuff. its not a bad thursday night movie.

[K-Gun]

i hate when you pretend to be dumb to try to prove some point. do you have ANY evidence this was the wrong house?

how do you know she is innocent?

you are making assumptions, which seems to be the pattern here when you guys dont have the facts.

I don't get it, I said even if they were wrong their not responsible because they're cops.

[Bellowing4DaBills]

Yeah, so I'm just a drama queen, there's no problem with police violence in this country, Radley's map (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/) is just the product of a bunch of whiny chickenshits.

Maybe not.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/21/D8LHSRR01.html

Can any of you think of any good reason for police to violently raid a home, guns drawn, to wipe out a 92-year old?

Hot damn, this year I'm thankful for AUTHORITARIANISM, the kind that makes drugs so bad that paramilitary raids are determined to be great frigging idea.4

Interesting topic.

Maybe the cops are in paramilitary gear because they've been shot up so many times previously in serving these narcotic warrants that they feel this is the only way to protect themselves.

I think the majority would be behind the cop's procedures in this case if the history proves that this has shown to be an extremely dangerous situation for them to justify the steps they are taking.

[mighty peace warrior]

as far as that "article" says you dont even know if they had made it to the door to knock before she started shooting people.

[mighty peace warrior]

I don't get it, I said even if they were wrong their not responsible because they're cops.

yes that is what you said...jesus

[nehemiah]

umm not when the police have a warrant to search ityou haven't actually posted your opinion on the larger issue.

should paramilitary units be used for these "drug raids"?

what, if anything, did the police do wrong?

inquiring minds want the inside dope. hook us up, copper!

[K-Gun]

yes that is what you said...jesus


blasphemor

[mighty peace warrior]

i dont know what happened i see a very short article with no details involved. as far as using swat for drug raids, its not the norm and there are usually very good reasons for using them. this doesnt say it was a swat team just some detectives with a heavy vest...hardly paramilitary. one of the best things about those vests is they say "POLICE" in very large letters accross them.

[mighty peace warrior]

blasphemor

go find someone else to **** with.

[K-Gun]

go find someone else to **** with.

ai ai chief

[anEinherjer]

Gopchick hit the nail on the head.

This wasn't a no-knock warrant. The police identified theirselves and this woman chose to arm herself instead of answering the door.

Note the police said they did not have the wrong address. It is not uncommon for drug dealers to use the residences of older family members to stash drugs and money.

There are two sides to every story.

We certainly don't know all the facts.

I just have a serious problem with any law enforcement that doesn't involve exigent circumstances (like, holding a gun to someone's head) ending up in kicking in doors and shooting a grandma dead - that anything not involving continuing violence can end up with someone getting killed by the cops.

There's something seriously, seriously wrong with our society that anyone can shrug this off as "oh well, the old bag must have done something wrong".

MPW, I'm not pointing at the cops. They are the symptom of a disease. If I can get more people to see that the cops are doing things that should be seen as abhorrent, maybe I can get people to understand that there's a _reason_ events like this happen beyond just some dirty old criminals.

It _is_ fun to watch you get worked up and say "I don't know why I bother", though. It's like clockwork. :D

[pmoon6]

umm not when the police have a warrant to search it The officers did have a warrant and were justified in returning fire. Maybe the woman didn't here the knock or a command from the officers. We don't know, there isn't enough information.

Did they knock on the door and identify themselves or did the just break the door down? Again we don't know. To take either side with only a little article is jumping the gun, but the reactions here show who dislikes police officers in general and thus have convicted them of wrongdoing or at least bad judgement.

[chickie]

I think some people here need to look at the big picture.

Let's just say you were sitting at your home. The cops believe that your home is being used to sell drugs. They stake it out, they send out the Narcs team they come to your door.

Now lets just say that they are damn sure they have the right house, so they kick down the door. They are probably saying something along the lines that they are the police as they do this.

Do A - Think holy shit what is going on and just cooperate with them?

Do B - Grab a gun and just start shooting?

Again if this little old 92 year old woman was so innocent why did she pick up a gun and start shooting at the cops?

Yes I think we all feel bad that she is dead - that is a shame. But why the violence on her end - why didn't she just be the sweet little old grandma that she is?

[Lucidvizion]

I hope your house isn't the correct one next time.

Oh noez! Teh jackboots are coming!

[pmoon6]

Maybe she was just tired of living and decided to go out in a blaze of glory.

[nehemiah]

Now lets just say that they are damn sure they have the right house, so they kick down the door. They are probably saying something along the lines that they are the police as they do this.

Do A - Think holy shit what is going on and just cooperate with them?

Do B - Grab a gun and just start shooting?

Again if this little old 92 year old woman was so innocent why did she pick up a gun and start shooting at the cops?i've never sold drugs. i don't even smoke weed. but, if the police don't make themselves known, i pick "B".

your point is doubly moot, btw, because it is entirely possible that an innocent person would start shooting - why would she ever think the cops would enter her home? in an innocent old lady's mind - she has done nothing wrong, so obviously they must be someone else.

[nehemiah]

i dont know what happened i see a very short article with no details involved. as far as using swat for drug raids, its not the norm and there are usually very good reasons for using them. this doesnt say it was a swat team just some detectives with a heavy vest...hardly paramilitary. one of the best things about those vests is they say "POLICE" in very large letters accross them.i don't know how much experience you have w/ drug busts, but in your experience - has the use of swat teams increased over the past 20 years?

if it has increased, by about how much?

[anEinherjer]

I think some people here need to look at the big picture.

Let's just say you were sitting at your home. The cops believe that your home is being used to sell drugs. They stake it out, they send out the Narcs team they come to your door.

Now lets just say that they are damn sure they have the right house, so they kick down the door. They are probably saying something along the lines that they are the police as they do this.

Do A - Think holy shit what is going on and just cooperate with them?

Do B - Grab a gun and just start shooting?

Again if this little old 92 year old woman was so innocent why did she pick up a gun and start shooting at the cops?

Yes I think we all feel bad that she is dead - that is a shame. But why the violence on her end - why didn't she just be the sweet little old grandma that she is?

GOPchick, please check out the raidmap and do some reading on the subject. Seriously, it's pretty interesting.

Here's a relatively common theme in these kinds of scenarios: You are asleep. Cops pick out your house, for whatever reason (correct or not). Sure, they knock at your door, but you don't hear it, or you don't believe it (if you're a criminal going after your enemies, why not pretend to be a cop to get 'em to open the door). After too short a period, the cops bust in, because they're afraid you'll flush all the evidence. Maybe you're still in bed. You don't know what's happening, you've been sound asleep. You grab your gun in your nightstand, and it all goes downhill from there.

Either your an innocent or you're a criminal. In any event, why does this end up as a gun battle? What underlying reason is there?

Your A or B scenario is a little simplistic.

[chickie]

i've never sold drugs. i don't even smoke weed. but, if the police don't make themselves known, i pick "B".

your point is doubly moot, btw, because it is entirely possible that an innocent person would start shooting - why would she ever think the cops would enter her home? in an innocent old lady's mind - she has done nothing wrong, so obviously they must be someone else.

I have never sold drugs either.

But I do know that if the cops showed up at my house, I sure as hell wouldn't pull out a loaded gun and start shooting.

Where is the common sense here?

I would be in to much shock that they just busted down my door for no reason and wouldn't have time to react quick enough.

la la la la la - I am sitting in my house watching the price is right- BAM my door gets kicked in - oh wait let me grab my gun and start shooting......

come on...there is more to this story.

[K-Gun]

uh, uh,

holding a gun to someone's head, ending up kicking in doors and shooting a grandma dead


1 2, 1 2, and you don't stop, it's 187 on a mother****ing cop

[chickie]

GOPchick, please check out the raidmap and do some reading on the subject. Seriously, it's pretty interesting.

Here's a relatively common theme in these kinds of scenarios: You are asleep. Cops pick out your house, for whatever reason (correct or not). Sure, they knock at your door, but you don't hear it, or you don't believe it (if you're a criminal going after your enemies, why not pretend to be a cop to get 'em to open the door). After too short a period, the cops bust in, because they're afraid you'll flush all the evidence. Maybe you're still in bed. You don't know what's happening, you've been sound asleep. You grab your gun in your nightstand, and it all goes downhill from there.

Either your an innocent or you're a criminal. In any event, why does this end up as a gun battle? What underlying reason is there?

Your A or B scenario is a little simplistic.


I did read all the info you supplied.

I started with the A and B scenario - you can build it from there as you wish.

All I am saying is that for a 92 year old woman to pull out a gun and start shooting is a little odd and we need more info.

It ended in a gun battle because grandma started shooting....

[anEinherjer]

No, it ended in a gun battle because of an endlessly escalating "war on drugs" that creates the atmosphere in which this kind of tragedy is unavoidable.

Let me ask you guys this: Once Prohibition was revoked, and until Reagan kicked up the War on Drugs again, how many of this kind of raid/killing happened?

I honestly don't know, but I'd be willing to bet money that there were far fewer. If someone can point me to where it's the same now as it was in, say, the 50's, I'll :stfu: :)

[TRIPLE P]

Let me ask you guys this: Once Prohibition was revoked, and until Reagan kicked up the War on Drugs again, how many of this kind of raid/killing happened?




And what do they accomplish anyway.... I can tell you that there are always drugs available......drugs are easier to get than booze when you're under 21, and this will ALWAYS be the case.

In other words, the war on drugs is lost, and putting cops at unneccesary risk is bad politics.

[mighty peace warrior]

It _is_ fun to watch you get worked up and say "I don't know why I bother", though. It's like clockwork. :D

i am glad you enjoy it.

what is predictible is all the ignorance these threads spread.

the fact is other than responding to JkiG's stupidity i have kept my cool in this thread just fine

[mighty peace warrior]

i don't know how much experience you have w/ drug busts, but in your experience - has the use of swat teams increased over the past 20 years?

if it has increased, by about how much?

i notice your not interested in the "why"

[mark3274]

And what do they accomplish anyway.... I can tell you that there are always drugs available......drugs are easier to get than booze when you're under 21, and this will ALWAYS be the case.

In other words, the war on drugs is lost, and putting cops at unneccesary risk is bad politics.

That depends I agree marijuana is a waste of police time... on the other hand I do not want a bunch of meth heads and coke fiends running free either.

[anEinherjer]

i notice your not interested in the "why"

I notice you're not interested in answering his question.

And I'll add the question then: When it's shown that SWAT raids have increased in the last 20 years, why?

[pmoon6]

I notice you're not interested in answering his question.

And I'll add the question then: When it's shown that SWAT raids have increased in the last 20 years, why?I'll take a guess here. I think criminals have become better armed and are willing to take more chances such as hostage situations. The availibility of black market automatic weapons which has steadily risen over the years also comes into play. They need to use the police special forces, if you will, to deal with those situations.

[mighty peace warrior]

I notice you're not interested in answering his question.

And I'll add the question then: When it's shown that SWAT raids have increased in the last 20 years, why?

i dont believe either of you are interested in the answers. we have been down this road

[anEinherjer]

You know, call me names, but the sitcheeation in Atlanta just gets better 'n better. Looks like us "anti-cop" types were dead on, this time.

http://www.theagitator.com/archives/027283.php#027283

Do you see what's happening here? The informant described in the warrants as "reliable;" whom police trusted enough to conduct a high-stakes, volatile forced entry raid on his word alone; and whose identity we've been until now been told must remain secret to protect his identity is no longer an asset to the police. He's now a liability.

Because of that, in nor more than a week this "reliable" police informant is now, "a former drug dealer." We no longer need to keep his identity a secret to prevent the other dealers he's ratted out from hurting or killing him -- instead, we can now let the newspapers print his full name, along with his rap sheet. Hang him out to dry.

Keep this in mind as they trash this guy over the next few days: One week ago, his word was gold. It alone was enough to secure a no-knock warrant on an old woman's home, with no corroborating investigation. And that's if we're to believe the police in all of this -- not that they've given us much reason to. Under the best case scenario, they have to admit that they raided an innocent, elderly woman's house based solely on the word of a former drug dealer, and a man they're now insisting can't be trusted.

Also keep this in mind: If White hadn't spoke up this week, we wouldn't be talking about any of this. A good percentage of the country would still have their doubts about Kathryn Johnston's guilt or innocence. Many people would still suspect she was a drug dealer. Police would still be portraying this as a "good" raid, and the shooting of Ms. Johnston as perfectly acceptable and justifiable.

Is Mr. White telling the truth? I don't know. So far, the police haven't given us much reason to take them at their word. They flat out lied about an undercover officer making the initial buy. This is purely speculative, but I can't see what incentive Mr. White would have to be lying now. If anything, the incentive would have been there for him to play along, and do what the cops told him to do. That way, he'd continue to get paid. No one would out him as an informant. And he wouldn't have every cop in Atlanta cursing his name.


Nope, nothing to see here, move along folks.

[35Pete]

I notice you're not interested in answering his question.

And I'll add the question then: When it's shown that SWAT raids have increased in the last 20 years, why?

Normalized to the population?

[pmoon6]

Wow, what damning evidence. The officers should now be given a fair trial and hung.

[35Pete]

You're right anEin. I crunched the numbers....

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/35Pete/swat.jpg

[anEinherjer]

Thanks Pete, I've seen similar information posted elsewhere. Here's another great post/link from Radley on the subject:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/116969.html

According to the latest data from the Department of Justice, a jaw-dropping 7 million -- or one in 32 -- Americans is in prison, on probation, or paroled. America has 4.6 percent of the world's population, but nearly a quarter of its prison inmates. The explosion has occurred over the last 20 years, which, not incoincidentally, dates back to the draconian 1986 drug bill Congress passed after the death of college basketball star Len Bias. Half of the increase in America's prisons since 1995 is due to federal drug crimes alone.

Now we're getting somewhere.

MPW doesn't think I want to know his opinion on "why", but he's wrong - I'd be curious to see other points of view, because from here, it looks plain-as-day that the drug war kicked up by Reagan in the 80's is directly responsible.

Sorry moonie, I don't buy that the criminals suddenly got a lot more sophisticated and "mean" between 1980 and now. I mean, they had access to tommy guns (and improvements) for decades. Do you have any evidence that automatics are more available via the black market now as compared to, say, 1975?

[Lucidvizion]

Sorry moonie, I don't buy that the criminals suddenly got a lot more sophisticated and "mean" between 1980 and now. I mean, they had access to tommy guns (and improvements) for decades. Do you have any evidence that automatics are more available via the black market now as compared to, say, 1975?

I've heard from multiple sources that criminals recently have become a lot smarter and more sophisticated, and the reason hasn't been access to weapons. It is because of the relatively recent popularity of TV shows that feature forensic science, causing methods to beat the technology to become (more) common knowledge. Even things as simple as wearing gloves when committing a burglary.

[emo]

I think its the god damned ebay!!!

Right bobby?

[pmoon6]

Thanks Pete, I've seen similar information posted elsewhere. Here's another great post/link from Radley on the subject:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/116969.html



Now we're getting somewhere.

MPW doesn't think I want to know his opinion on "why", but he's wrong - I'd be curious to see other points of view, because from here, it looks plain-as-day that the drug war kicked up by Reagan in the 80's is directly responsible.

Sorry moonie, I don't buy that the criminals suddenly got a lot more sophisticated and "mean" between 1980 and now. I mean, they had access to tommy guns (and improvements) for decades. Do you have any evidence that automatics are more available via the black market now as compared to, say, 1975?No, the black market doesn't publicize it's transactions and I never had any connections to it in '75.

I told you I was guessing, albeit an educated guess. The one thing I do know is if I wanted to, which I don't, I could get a Mac-10 or an Uzi in a day or two.

I agree with the libertarian stance that drugs should be legalized if only to stem the street violence associated with it. It would also boost tax revenues.

[anEinherjer]

I've heard from multiple sources that criminals recently have become a lot smarter and more sophisticated, and the reason hasn't been access to weapons. It is because of the relatively recent popularity of TV shows that feature forensic science, causing methods to beat the technology to become (more) common knowledge. Even things as simple as wearing gloves when committing a burglary.

That could be true, I forgot about that.

Does that make them more violent though? The question here is more about escalating violence of (apparently) both criminals and police - police evidenced by ever-increasing usage of SWAT teams and paramilitary tactics.

(This discussion makes me want to go play Counter-Strike hehe)

Moonie, I wasn't really suggesting you knew, just curious if you had any evidence. But wait... you didn't have connections to the black market in 75... that implies that you have some now.

Any chance you could arrange an accident for LT by Sunday afternoon? :)

[JLB]

That could be true, I forgot about that.

Does that make them more violent though? The question here is more about escalating violence of (apparently) both criminals and police - police evidenced by ever-increasing usage of SWAT teams and paramilitary tactics.

(This discussion makes me want to go play Counter-Strike hehe)

Moonie, I wasn't really suggesting you knew, just curious if you had any evidence. But wait... you didn't have connections to the black market in 75... that implies that you have some now.

Any chance you could arrange an accident for LT by Sunday afternoon? :)

Funny you mention L.T. thats what I thought of when looking at Pete's chart.

[pmoon6]

That could be true, I forgot about that.

Does that make them more violent though? The question here is more about escalating violence of (apparently) both criminals and police - police evidenced by ever-increasing usage of SWAT teams and paramilitary tactics.

(This discussion makes me want to go play Counter-Strike hehe)

Moonie, I wasn't really suggesting you knew, just curious if you had any evidence. But wait... you didn't have connections to the black market in 75... that implies that you have some now.

Any chance you could arrange an accident for LT by Sunday afternoon? :)I hear he enjoys a good cigar. Maybe I could plant a poisioned one in his box of Havana's.:D

[TheCrystalBall]

Notice how MPW has dissappeared from this thread since new evidence about the cops and their informant surfaced?

[35Pete]

Thanks Pete, I've seen similar information posted elsewhere. Here's another great post/link from Radley on the subject:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/116969.html



Now we're getting somewhere.

MPW doesn't think I want to know his opinion on "why", but he's wrong - I'd be curious to see other points of view, because from here, it looks plain-as-day that the drug war kicked up by Reagan in the 80's is directly responsible.

Sorry moonie, I don't buy that the criminals suddenly got a lot more sophisticated and "mean" between 1980 and now. I mean, they had access to tommy guns (and improvements) for decades. Do you have any evidence that automatics are more available via the black market now as compared to, say, 1975?

The first and last data points provide a good estimate for a line to fit. That equates to a 30% per year increase (relative to 1986) in SWAT mishaps (wrongful death, wrong address, ect...).

That is disturbing and needs to be addressed.

[anEinherjer]

Well, like I've been wont to say around here, correlation doesn't imply causation, so I'd love to hear some alternate theories as to the cause of the rise - or at least get some more info.

[35Pete]

Well, like I've been wont to say around here, correlation doesn't imply causation, so I'd love to hear some alternate theories as to the cause of the rise - or at least get some more info.

Need to do cross corellation between crime rates. Particularly violent crime and drug crime.

But again. Corellation doesn't imply causality.

More evidence needed.

Obviously after I normalized the rates to population the rate still skyrockets, so you can rule out increased population. Benchmarking to 1986 is just a nice way to show the increase. That is, we have 7'xs the number of swat screwups, adjusted for population, than we did in 1986.

Why though? I'd like to take that data and now normalize it again against the number of swat raids. If that metric rises then you know that SWAT is getting balsier and more sloppy.

[Lucidvizion]

The first and last data points provide a good estimate for a line to fit. That equates to a 30% per year increase (relative to 1986) in SWAT mishaps (wrongful death, wrong address, ect...).

That is disturbing and needs to be addressed.

How many % per year increase in SWAT usage has there been?

That's a very key factor that is being left out. If SWAT usage increased by 50% per year over that time frame I could argue that they've been getting better, heh.

[35Pete]

How many % per year increase in SWAT usage has there been?

That's a very key factor that is being left out. If SWAT usage increased by 50% per year over that time frame I could argue that they've been getting better, heh.

Exactly. See my last post.

[shiva2999]

I got caught in a drug raid (by coincidence) once and it was the scariest moment of my life.

It was the late 70s and as I was still getting going in my film career, I used to drive a cab between jobs. This guy Bob had been the day driver for a couple of months. A burnout but a nice guy. He had a basement apartment in a two story house in a working neighborhood so he'd come and pick me up and I'd drive him home then go to work.

Well, one afternoon, Bob picks me up and I drive him home. I park in front of his house, he gets out and goes up the driveway and into his apartment.

So, I sit for a moment while I listen to the dispatcher and fillout my trip sheet.

All of a sudden a car roars around the corner and comes to a screeching halt across the nose of my cab. Four guys in plainclothes jump out. Of course I make them as cops right away and put down my clipboard.

Three guys pull guns and run up and around the back of the house. The other guy who looks like the boss comes over and asks me to get out of the car as he shows me his badge. I get out and he asks me what I'm doing here. I tell him I'm just dropping off my day driver and was just about to start my shift. He asks me to open up my trunk so I do. He looks in and can't find anything. I wonder if he's going to plant something. He closes the trunk, says follow me and starts to walk up to the front door of the house. Needless to say, I'm somewhat concerned. I knew I wasn't a drug kingpin, I was pretty sure Bob wasn't but I'd never seen who lived in the rest of the house.

So, I follow the cop up the stairs to the front door. He bangs on the door a couple of times. After a few seconds, we hear footsteps coming up to the door. A voice from inside says "Who is it?"

The cop says "Hey yeah, it's me, Ernie." The voice inside pauses a couple seconds then say "Ernie?"

Then the cop looks right at me and says "Yeah, Ernie. Ernie and (uses my first name). C'mon, let us in".

Another couple seconds pause and footsteps go away from the door.

All of a sudden, one of the other cops runs back around the corner of the house and up the stairs. He has his gun drawn. The other guy draws his gun and they both start kicking on the door.

At this moment, I had a clear image in my head of a shotgun blast coming thru the door, so I backed down the stairs while telling the guys "I'll just wait in the driveway."

They ignored me, kicked the door down while the other two kicked the door down to Bob's apt.

So I wait in the driveway wondering when the shooting starts.

Fortunately, it never does.

The boss comes out after 5 minutes, takes my name and address and tells me I can go.

Two hours later I get a pitiful call from Bob, who's in jail.

Seems the cops didn't find anything in the house, but they did find some outstanding parking tickets on Bob's file.

So I had to go down to the precinct and loan him a hundred bucks so he could pay off the tickets and get out of jail.

The drug kingpins upstairs got off scott free.

[35Pete]

Oooooohhhh Booooy. This ain't good. And it is all over the left and libertarian sites. Even the National Review is howling about it. How often do left, right, and libertarian agree? Is this the rapture? Data crunched from the CATO article.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/35Pete/screw_ups.jpg

[TheCrystalBall]

I got caught in a drug raid (by coincidence) once and it was the scariest moment of my life.

It was the late 70s and as I was still getting going in my film career, I used to drive a cab between jobs. This guy Bob had been the day driver for a couple of months. A burnout but a nice guy. He had a basement apartment in a two story house in a working neighborhood so he'd come and pick me up and I'd drive him home then go to work.

Well, one afternoon, Bob picks me up and I drive him home. I park in front of his house, he gets out and goes up the driveway and into his apartment.

So, I sit for a moment while I listen to the dispatcher and fillout my trip sheet.

All of a sudden a car roars around the corner and comes to a screeching halt across the nose of my cab. Four guys in plainclothes jump out. Of course I make them as cops right away and put down my clipboard.

Three guys pull guns and run up and around the back of the house. The other guy who looks like the boss comes over and asks me to get out of the car as he shows me his badge. I get out and he asks me what I'm doing here. I tell him I'm just dropping off my day driver and was just about to start my shift. He asks me to open up my trunk so I do. He looks in and can't find anything. I wonder if he's going to plant something. He closes the trunk, says follow me and starts to walk up to the front door of the house. Needless to say, I'm somewhat concerned. I knew I wasn't a drug kingpin, I was pretty sure Bob wasn't but I'd never seen who lived in the rest of the house.

So, I follow the cop up the stairs to the front door. He bangs on the door a couple of times. After a few seconds, we hear footsteps coming up to the door. A voice from inside says "Who is it?"

The cop says "Hey yeah, it's me, Ernie." The voice inside pauses a couple seconds then say "Ernie?"

Then the cop looks right at me and says "Yeah, Ernie. Ernie and (uses my first name). C'mon, let us in".

Another couple seconds pause and footsteps go away from the door.

All of a sudden, one of the other cops runs back around the corner of the house and up the stairs. He has his gun drawn. The other guy draws his gun and they both start kicking on the door.

At this moment, I had a clear image in my head of a shotgun blast coming thru the door, so I backed down the stairs while telling the guys "I'll just wait in the driveway."

They ignored me, kicked the door down while the other two kicked the door down to Bob's apt.

So I wait in the driveway wondering when the shooting starts.

Fortunately, it never does.

The boss comes out after 5 minutes, takes my name and address and tells me I can go.

Two hours later I get a pitiful call from Bob, who's in jail.

Seems the cops didn't find anything in the house, but they did find some outstanding parking tickets on Bob's file.

So I had to go down to the precinct and loan him a hundred bucks so he could pay off the tickets and get out of jail.

The drug kingpins upstairs got off scott free.

Clear out your PM box if I have to send you a message.

[shiva2999]

Clear out your PM box if I have to send you a message.

Done.

[anEinherjer]

Pete, can you go back farther than that or is that as far as the data goes? The trend is solidly upward from 86 onward, but... was it upward before then?

[35Pete]

Jesus. We just need to legalize the damn drugs and be done with it.

I'm a strict law and order guy. Against burglarly, theft, robbery, rape, murder and other victim crimes.

Hang em' high.

But this nonsense is bizaare. End the insanity. Give people the freedom to destroy themselves if they want.

Screw what the church says. They need to shut up.

And if coke was $7 a gram, pure, and manufactured by Pfizer then there goes all the burglaries, the drug wars, and the killings over turf.

Would drug use increase?

Probably.

Would I care?

How could it be worse than it is now?

[35Pete]

Pete, can you go back farther than that or is that as far as the data goes? The trend is solidly upward from 86 onward, but... was it upward before then?

3,000 SWAT raids in 1981. 40,000 in 2001. Interpolated at 47,000 in 2006. The population only grew 20% over that time period.

You don't need to do the math. It's pretty obvious.

Take the M-16's away from the cops. They aren't playing nice.

[35Pete]

I like data. It tells me the truth anEin. Without emotions or egos involved. SWAT is out of control.

[Lucidvizion]

I say let it run its present course, at this rate.

The end result may be abandoning the war on drugs.

[ticatfan3]

It makes you think there is some major power tripping going on with the police at times .Now you have these swat shows on and they all act like god's gift to the world. And with this 92 year old, maybe she opened the door before for police only to find out they were not and she got robbed.